(Topic ID: 13701)

Top Pinball Flops??

By Rick471

11 years ago


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  • 90 posts
  • 53 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 11 years ago by goatdan
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    There are 90 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 11 years ago
    Quoted from lukerp:

    Hey,
    I'd say Flipper Football by Capcom. Thanks to Lloyd (LTG) for sharing this story with me when I was at SS Billiards one time: http://www.ufopinball.com/BBB/capcom_small.JPG
    Luke

    That is great. No shortage of classics in there!

    #52 11 years ago
    Quoted from RobT:

    I don't understand the TZ being a flop on route in terms of earnings. How the hell did they sell so many of them if they weren't making money for ops?

    Games weren't built like they are today, for demand. They were built with some sort of general idea in mind. If you made too many, you either forced distributors to carry them, or blew them out cheap. If you made to few, well, you should've bought earlier, sorry -- we can't rerun them (see: MM).

    In TZ's case, it was the follow up to one of the most popular games of all time, which had been earning really solidly on route. So why wouldn't you expect the same thing? Gear up a ton, sell a ton based on the earlier reputation... and then low and behold, the clock broke, or something else went wrong, and you were constantly out there for a game no players really understood or were playing.

    A local op told me a year or so ago that they kept a TZ because it was the owners favorite game, but it always made about half of what anything else on location made. They finally retired it because of that. TZ was a total route dog, and you can pretty much lay the blame the failure of RS to be made as much as it was directly at it's feet.

    But again, my point isn't that TZ is a bad game -- I know a LOT of people that would vehemently deny that. It's just that the definition of "flop" really changes depending on your perspective.

    #53 11 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    I talked to a guy awhile back that operated probably 30ish+ pins over a decade or 3 and he said hands down TZ made him the least money.

    My buddy who owns a decent size route actually told me the opposite for him. TAF earned well and he bought a couple of TZ and it did even better for him than TAF for him.

    When I told him that I heard lots of people saying it wasn't a huge earner, he says for him he cleaned up with them. Not what I thought.

    Personally, I would say WOF. Unfinished code + what were they thinking theme. I actually like the layout and shots, but it is definitely on my have no desire to own list.

    #54 11 years ago

    Anything made by Zaccaria is a big flop.

    Australia has in the last few years become a dumping ground with European imports of this brand and they are lucky to sell here for $1000 (the dealers in Europe sell to the Australian importers for about 100 Euro per title).

    A lot of the container importers here in Australia label them as "container filler" for the better playing and desirable B/W and Stern titles. Part of the container deals we get from Europe is that you HAVE to take a cross section of machines from the dealers in Europe (no containers full of only B/W or Stern).

    Just for comparison, a B list B/W title like Fish Tales goes for around the 1800-2200 mark here, and a Gottlieb DMD goes for around 1500, so the Zacs are bottom of the barrel container filler.

    #55 11 years ago

    Popeye, Bugs Bunny B-day and Space Jam

    #56 11 years ago

    TRS for sure
    Avatar
    BBH

    #57 11 years ago

    Transformers, wish there was more than meets the eye. Makes me yearn for the good ole days of flow like IM and Tron. Oh wait those are great - Gomez belly flop on TF. Makes junkyard an A game.

    #58 11 years ago

    Biggest flop was Spectrum. They actually smashed them up.

    For me:

    #1 TRS
    #2 24
    #3 Popeye

    #59 11 years ago
    Quoted from wbradley:

    Almost forgot CSI and 24 only sold 500 units each due to a license not known outside North America.

    Where are these numbers coming from? Stern doesn't release their numbers

    #60 11 years ago
    Quoted from JDub1006:

    PS. Transformers?? Sorry Stern lovers but this game stinks, I think Stern had a budget of $150.00 and a Walmart gift card to make this one.

    Quoted from shlockdoc:

    Transformers, wish there was more than meets the eye.

    I have to agree with this. I have been a Transformers junkie since I was a little kid. I still collect them today ( Toys, Statues, etc. ) I plyed this for the first time and a comic book shop, and I was not that impressed. If they had done a Transformers pin based on Generation 1, then I would have grabbed it in two seconds flat.

    #61 11 years ago
    Quoted from pinball_customs:

    wbradley said:Almost forgot CSI and 24 only sold 500 units each due to a license not known outside North America.

    Where are these numbers coming from? Stern doesn't release their numbers

    can't remember where I got that from. Not a able to substantiate it.

    #62 11 years ago
    Quoted from Xanathar:

    JDub1006 said:PS. Transformers?? Sorry Stern lovers but this game stinks, I think Stern had a budget of $150.00 and a Walmart gift card to make this one.

    As I've said before I like the PRO edition much better becssue it doesn't have all the cheap crap strewn about it.

    #63 11 years ago

    Every DMD Stern made apart from SM, Sopranos (just gets in there) and LOTR... The worst Sterns being IJ and TRS closely followed by IM, Avatar, BBH, 24, CSI and Tron.

    #64 11 years ago

    500 units each? That can't be true. Then again I've never seen a 24 so.....

    #65 11 years ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    Every DMD Stern made apart from SM, Sopranos (just gets in there) and LOTR... The worst Sterns being IJ and TRS closely followed by IM, Avatar, BBH, 24, CSI and Tron.

    And so I guess the real question is.. define "flop". A financial flop for the company or a flop as a player?

    WOF is a flop in both regards (although it's pretty fun to play, just has broken software).

    IM, Tron and Avatar were HUGE sellers, whether you think they're a good game or not.

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    #67 11 years ago

    I'm not going to deny that Stern has made some bad games and poor choices but RGR, man, you're not seeing the bigger picture.. this isn't the 90's. The 90's was pinball's renaissance, designers were like rockstars!

    Like Steve Ritchie said "If you want to meet a pinball designer these days, order a pizza".

    Pinball was on life support for a while there.. it's coming back to life again (thankfully), but give it some time. JJP and JPop will both make AWESOME games, I have no doubt about that.. but you can't write Stern off yet. It's like a debate, you have to give them a chance to answer first.

    Can't we all just get along?

    #68 11 years ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    And all of a sudden Stern are introducing LCDs in their games.... oh how I would like to think that it was planned 2-3 years ago but I think that they are only doing it due to the competition from JJ.

    Just because your a fan of JJP does not mean you need to hate on the only company that continued to make machines when the rest ran for cover. Stern put shakers in their pins and if WOZ has one does that mean JJP copied them? Come on lets be real its pinball and I am glad it seems to be picking up in popularity lately and can't see why so many feel they need to hate on one manufacturer just because they like another.

    #69 11 years ago

    I love IJ4, BBHP and WOF because they're near me and I've had a lot of time to warm to them.

    Popeye springs to mind...seems dodgy design leading to poor visibility made that one a flop.

    #70 11 years ago

    Stern has made some really great games. I don't know why people bash them every chance they get.

    #71 11 years ago

    TRS wins by a landslide!

    #72 11 years ago
    Quoted from Rick471:

    In honor of John Carter The Movie

    Did anybody but me ever read all 11 ERB John Carter novels?

    #73 11 years ago
    Quoted from goatdan:

    RobT said:I don't understand the TZ being a flop on route in terms of earnings. How the hell did they sell so many of them if they weren't making money for ops?
    Games weren't built like they are today, for demand. They were built with some sort of general idea in mind. If you made too many, you either forced distributors to carry them, or blew them out cheap. If you made to few, well, you should've bought earlier, sorry -- we can't rerun them (see: MM).
    In TZ's case, it was the follow up to one of the most popular games of all time, which had been earning really solidly on route. So why wouldn't you expect the same thing? Gear up a ton, sell a ton based on the earlier reputation... and then low and behold, the clock broke, or something else went wrong, and you were constantly out there for a game no players really understood or were playing.
    A local op told me a year or so ago that they kept a TZ because it was the owners favorite game, but it always made about half of what anything else on location made. They finally retired it because of that. TZ was a total route dog, and you can pretty much lay the blame the failure of RS to be made as much as it was directly at it's feet.
    But again, my point isn't that TZ is a bad game -- I know a LOT of people that would vehemently deny that. It's just that the definition of "flop" really changes depending on your perspective.

    Good post, thanks for the response.

    #74 11 years ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    The worst Sterns being IJ and TRS closely followed by IM, Avatar, BBH, 24, CSI and Tron.

    Strongly disagree. IM and Tron are both great pins, and Avatar isn't as bad as many people say. I also can have fun playing BBH.

    #75 11 years ago
    Quoted from davewtf:

    Stern has made some really great games. I don't know why people bash them every chance they get.

    Well Said Dave! I have games from Both Williams and Stern and enjoy what both companies have to offer. Looking forward to what JJP will do as well.

    As far as bad ones go IJ4 was a work of art but got old quick, was able to move it for a good buck for a NIB Spiderman. Didn't like avatar either. I really like Tron though, on the wish list. Party Zone was another dog for me. For some reason I couldn't get into it. Only had it a few months, dumped it and got the shadow. Wish I kept that one!

    #76 11 years ago
    Quoted from pinsanity:

    Anything made by Zaccaria is a big flop.

    Australia has in the last few years become a dumping ground with European imports of this brand ...

    That's interesting. You almost never see them come up for sale around here these days.

    #77 11 years ago

    The Lost World (2nd Jurassic Park pin)
    NBA/CSI/24 (Listed because they sold so few units that Stern nearly went bankrupt)
    WPT (I list this one because I want to like it, plus it's a SR game, but I can't get into it)

    #78 11 years ago

    Where do the Zaccarias go? They go to the land down under.

    #79 11 years ago

    My vote is for big bck hunter. Such potential, such a wreck!

    #80 11 years ago

    A flop is a bit of a subjective term... could apply to sales, or actual game play. Sine I don't care if a pin I like sells 20,000 units or 5 units, I suggest that people actually play a game a few times before calling it a dud.

    For example, while I had the opportunity to play TRS, for free, all day, I literally walked past it. I like the Stones, it just didn't look like fun. However, I won't call it a dud just because I had no interest in playing it.

    On the other hand BBH is a fairly uncommon game, didn't sell well, etc, so quite a lot of pinball enthusiasts have never seen it in person. It's fine to say the theme is not attractive (I've never played the video game myself), but everyone (and I mean that literally) I know that's actually played the game really enjoys it for it's humor and playability.

    #81 11 years ago

    I don't think it would have been quite such low ratings if that frackin deer target would work. I have played two games and the target wouldn't work on either. Very frustrating.

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    #83 11 years ago

    Why so much hate for Stern? At best there'll be two big players in pinball again. At worst... well let's hope the JJ fanboys all get their deposits back.

    #84 11 years ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    I just dont know why people on this site except that Stern is good for pinball when they are screwing you around.

    Well i'm no Stern lover by any means, but there have been some damn fine games made by them. I would say more bad then good, but good ones for sure. Would I pay for any of them? Sure. I would love to own a RBION...and there are some more out there.

    I don't bow at their feet or anything, but like iot or not they have been the only company for the last 10+ years producing pinball machines. If nothing else, they've shown other companies that you can make money making pinballs.

    Quoted from RGR:

    Everything that JJ has said and done will prove that new innovations were possible in pinball.

    And guess what, there's more than enough ass kissing of JJ even though they haven't done a damn thing yet. Will it be great? I have no idea, I hope so. I'm not chalking it up as a victory already like you are becasue they are using an LCD display. I would have thought Pat Lawlor was incapable of making a garbage game...then I met CSI.

    #85 11 years ago
    Quoted from RGR:

    Ok the issue here as I have said before is that Stern could have done alot more since LOTR

    I think TRON (11), IM (10), BDK (08), SM (07), POTC (06), Sopranos (05) & RBION (04) were pretty good games. I haven't played AC/DC or TF, so i can't comment on those.

    I can't really fault them for not being more progressive in their gamemaking given the lack of competition and the overall unpopularity of pinball during that time span. It's hard to devote wheelbarrows full of cash towards something that isn't going to automatically be lucrative.

    #86 11 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    And guess what, there's more than enough ass kissing of JJ even though they haven't done a damn thing yet. Will it be great? I have no idea, I hope so. I'm not chalking it up as a victory already like you are becasue they are using an LCD display. I would have thought Pat Lawlor was incapable of making a garbage game...then I met CSI.

    I hope WOZ ends up being great too! If not I think it would make this list very quickly. I dont see that happening...

    Looks very cool so far

    #87 11 years ago

    I don't own a stern machine, but I am a huge fan of theirs.
    If they had not continued producing machines, who knows where the industry would be now.
    Long live Stern, hope they continue to innovate and thrive!
    Ac/DC looks awesome, just wish I could find a place to try it out

    #88 11 years ago
    Quoted from Rick471:

    I wonder which machine had the highest surplus after initial purchases,,,

    WOF was blown out by a NY wholesaler for under 3k.

    Dont forget NBA = less than 300.

    Biggest let down for me IJ4 - bought it with 125 plays on it HUO then sold it with just over 400 lays. Seems the ball stayed in the two scoops more than the PF itself. Bummer on that one.

    BBh - was Sterns second attempt on a Vid to Pin cross over (RCT which I like)

    TRS - I bet Stern thought it would have out sold all the top hits but looks like ACDC will pick up the slack.

    #89 11 years ago
    Quoted from HOOKED:

    Rick471 said:

    I wonder which machine had the highest surplus after initial purchases,,,

    WOF was blown out by a NY wholesaler for under 3k.

    Dont forget NBA = less than 300.

    Biggest let down for me IJ4 - bought it with 125 plays on it HUO then sold it with just over 400 lays. Seems the ball stayed in the two scoops more than the PF itself. Bummer on that one.

    BBh - was Sterns second attempt on a Vid to Pin cross over (RCT which I like)

    TRS - I bet Stern thought it would have out sold all the top hits but looks like ACDC will pick up the slack.

    Very reliable sources tell me you could buy CV's for $1700 back in the day

    #90 11 years ago
    Quoted from davewtf:

    Very reliable sources tell me you could buy CV's for $1700 back in the day

    I've heard $1500. Just missed that era.

    Remember though, the world was a different place back then. People were buying pins because they made them money, not because they were fun to have at home. If a machine earned money on route, there would be more of them sold. If a machine was super fun, but didn't earn, it didn't matter. It's different now.

    Also, as to why a lot of people like to bash Stern, back in the day when they were playing in arcades, it was by FAR the most likely that they would come across Bally / Williams titles. All machines do feel different in some ways. That isn't a good thing or a bad thing, it's just true -- and so when those same people are going out looking for a pin to relive what they remember from the arcade, of course there is going to be nothing better than exactly what they remember.

    Add to that B/W titles were relatively unreliable when you took them out of the box. DE was worse, Gottliebs were built like tanks. But, by the time that most collectors get them, these games have been tweaked, and tweaked, and tweaked, so opening up your new Stern game and finding out that a switch is out of alignment suddenly seems horrible. Machines were way worse back when B/W ruled the roost, but collectors don't see that side of it.

    That's why people ultimately and unfairly bash Stern for what they have done over the past 12 or so years -- because they aren't exactly what they remember from 20 years ago, and they don't work as well right out of the box as a machine that a collector has spent hours and hours tweaking.

    I like everything for completely different reasons. I don't currently own any Stern machines, but if an Iron Man came up for anything near a reasonable price, I'd be all over it. Heck, I haven't even played Tron, but from everything I've seen and read, it would be the same sort of situation. But, if I was looking to play games that played like they did back when I was a kid, those aren't going to be the machines that do it for me. Mostly, B/W titles will be. And, admittedly, I do own a lot of those titles.

    There are 90 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.

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