(Topic ID: 309654)

Top Card score reels not resetting at all on startup

By Sea_Wolf

2 years ago


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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Sea_Wolf
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    #1 2 years ago

    My Top Card has recently developed an issue with the score reels not resetting at all when you push the start/replay button about 50% of the time. They don’t move or try to move. Everything else resets fine. The score motor turns and the ball kicks to the shooter lane and the Ball Count Unit resets and shows Ball 1 like it should. The playfield is live and you could play a game except the fact that you’re adding on to the previous game’s score because the score reels never reset.

    As I mentioned it happens about 1/2 the times you push the start button but other times the reels reset just fine on startup.

    The start button switch is clean and making good contact and I cleaned associated score motor switches on 1A, 4A, 2B etc.. as well as the switches on the Start relay but the problem still exists. I’m wondering if it’s not a bad solder joint somewhere on the above mentioned switches but I can’t see any.

    Thanks for any help on this.

    #2 2 years ago

    It sounds like your A (Reset Completed) Relay is staying in the wrong position intermittently.

    When you start the game, the A relay should get a pulse through a m/b switch on the S relay to energize. That closes A switches that allow the score reels to turn until they get to zero. Once they all reach zero, the A Reset relay should fire. That's an interlock relay, so the A relay relaxes then. The switches for A should then be as shown on the schematic. The O relay then fires, which fires the Ball Kicker coil to start the game.

    If the A relay isn't firing early in the process, then I think the ball would get kicked out early and you'd see what you're seeing. I'd check that m/b switch on S (highlighted in yellow) again or the Motor 2C switch next to it on the schematic. Make sure that A relay is being energized early on.

    Top Card (resized).JPGTop Card (resized).JPG

    #3 2 years ago

    I agree with this explanation. I had the same issue on my Top Card. The A relay was a challenge to adjust properly.

    #4 2 years ago
    Quoted from paulace:

    It sounds like your A (Reset Completed) Relay is staying in the wrong position intermittently.
    When you start the game, the A relay should get a pulse through a m/b switch on the S relay to energize. That closes A switches that allow the score reels to turn until they get to zero. Once they all reach zero, the A Reset relay should fire. That's an interlock relay, so the A relay relaxes then. The switches for A should then be as shown on the schematic. The O relay then fires, which fires the Ball Kicker coil to start the game.
    If the A relay isn't firing early in the process, then I think the ball would get kicked out early and you'd see what you're seeing. I'd check that m/b switch on S (highlighted in yellow) again or the Motor 2C switch next to it on the schematic. Make sure that A relay is being energized early on.
    [quoted image]

    Thanks for explaining all that. I’ll check out the A relay and go over 2C again when I get home.

    That also might explain why after the 5th ball drains and the Game Over light comes on, the ball still gets kicked to the shooter lane.

    #5 2 years ago
    Quoted from Sea_Wolf:

    Thanks for explaining all that. I’ll check out the A relay and go over 2C again when I get home.
    That also might explain why after the 5th ball drains and the Game Over light comes on, the ball still gets kicked to the shooter lane.

    That has to be one of the most common Gottlieb issues ever, excepting maybe the ball trough shooter not doing its job correctly.

    #6 2 years ago
    Quoted from paulace:

    It sounds like your A (Reset Completed) Relay is staying in the wrong position intermittently.
    When you start the game, the A relay should get a pulse through a m/b switch on the S relay to energize. That closes A switches that allow the score reels to turn until they get to zero. Once they all reach zero, the A Reset relay should fire. That's an interlock relay, so the A relay relaxes then. The switches for A should then be as shown on the schematic. The O relay then fires, which fires the Ball Kicker coil to start the game.
    If the A relay isn't firing early in the process, then I think the ball would get kicked out early and you'd see what you're seeing. I'd check that m/b switch on S (highlighted in yellow) again or the Motor 2C switch next to it on the schematic. Make sure that A relay is being energized early on.
    [quoted image]

    paulace I thought I had the issue fixed from your advice and there is a little improvement. After checking and cleaning switches on the A relay and checking and cleaning the relevant switches on 2C and 2B, I did the same to the switches on the Start relay, paying special attention to the make/break switch with the red/green and blue/yellow wires.

    The biggest change was after I tightened the switch stacks on the Start relay and closed the gap on that Make/break switch. It reset the score reels 5 times in a row on startup after that but since it’s probably happening 75% of the times I tried. Better than before for sure but still not 100%.

    Tomorrow after work I’ll go over the A relay and Start relay with a fine toothed comb and look for loose wires or cracked solder joints etc..

    Thanks again for the help.

    #7 2 years ago
    Quoted from dpk27:

    I agree with this explanation. I had the same issue on my Top Card. The A relay was a challenge to adjust properly.

    Thanks, I’m going to go over that A relay again tomorrow to see if any switches look like they may need adjusting. Getting closer I think.

    #8 2 years ago
    Quoted from EMsInKC:

    That has to be one of the most common Gottlieb issues ever, excepting maybe the ball trough shooter not doing its job correctly.

    Another similar issue that I recently started having at times is the knocker going off the first time I press the start button on my Jumping Jack and sometimes have to press again to get the game to reset.

    Not near as aggravating as the Top Card issue but weird.

    #9 2 years ago

    Well, the fact that you changed things slightly for the better probably means you're on the right track.

    I'm curious if you press in the A relay with your finger before you start a game, do the score reels reset and the game start correctly every time? If so, the switches on your A relay are probably OK - it's that the A relay is sometimes not getting the signal to fire at the start of the game. It looks like the path to fire the A relay just goes through the m/b S switch and the Motor 2C switch. I'd focus there - make sure those contacts are clean and attached firmly in their leafs, all solder connections are good, you have continuity along the wire lengths.

    You could also jumper each of those 2 switches individually and see if the game starts normally if either is jumped...might give you a clue.

    How do you clean your switch contacts? Sometimes, when I use an abrasive stick, a little grit can be left on the contact that makes electrical connection intermittent. I've taken to using the Dremel brush dipped in alcohol, if you have one of those....leaves a really smooth, clean contact. On the S relay, you'll probably have to take the switch stack apart to get the brush between the contacts, but you can probably do it on the Motor 2C stack with that one in place.

    Then tighten the stack screws and bend the shorter leaf where it comes out of the stack for good contact. I've seen you around here for a while, so I'm sure you know all this stuff - just making sure to cover the bases. Good luck! Let us know what happens.

    #10 2 years ago

    The latching A relay can be tricky (but not as bad as the AX/BX ones).

    There’s a picture and a couple of paragraphs about it in Clay’s guide, here, http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#reset

    I would check the latching plates on yours. Make sure that there are no burrs, dirt, old gunk, etc. Also, make sure that the switches aren’t over adjusted such that they fight the latch/unlatch process.

    I had sort of the opposite problem on our king pin game. The latch was barely caught, so I’d have cases where it would come unlatched during the game and reset the score to zero

    You seem to be on the right track, good luck.

    Dave

    #11 2 years ago
    Quoted from paulace:

    Well, the fact that you changed things slightly for the better probably means you're on the right track.
    I'm curious if you press in the A relay with your finger before you start a game, do the score reels reset and the game start correctly every time? If so, the switches on your A relay are probably OK - it's that the A relay is sometimes not getting the signal to fire at the start of the game. It looks like the path to fire the A relay just goes through the m/b S switch and the Motor 2C switch. I'd focus there - make sure those contacts are clean and attached firmly in their leafs, all solder connections are good, you have continuity along the wire lengths.
    You could also jumper each of those 2 switches individually and see if the game starts normally if either is jumped...might give you a clue.
    How do you clean your switch contacts? Sometimes, when I use an abrasive stick, a little grit can be left on the contact that makes electrical connection intermittent. I've taken to using the Dremel brush dipped in alcohol, if you have one of those....leaves a really smooth, clean contact. On the S relay, you'll probably have to take the switch stack apart to get the brush between the contacts, but you can probably do it on the Motor 2C stack with that one in place.
    Then tighten the stack screws and bend the shorter leaf where it comes out of the stack for good contact. I've seen you around here for a while, so I'm sure you know all this stuff - just making sure to cover the bases. Good luck! Let us know what happens.

    That makes sense to me and yes anytime the latch on the A relay trips and the switches activate, the score reels reset so it sounds like the A relay is not the culprit as you pointed out.

    I use a fairly smooth mini file to clean contacts and then q-tip with alcohol to clean up. I’ll do more checking later. Thanks again.

    #12 2 years ago
    Quoted from dgAmpGuy:

    The latching A relay can be tricky (but not as bad as the AX/BX ones).
    There’s a picture and a couple of paragraphs about it in Clay’s guide, here, http://www.pinrepair.com/em/index3.htm#reset
    I would check the latching plates on yours. Make sure that there are no burrs, dirt, old gunk, etc. Also, make sure that the switches aren’t over adjusted such that they fight the latch/unlatch process.
    I had sort of the opposite problem on our king pin game. The latch was barely caught, so I’d have cases where it would come unlatched during the game and reset the score to zero
    You seem to be on the right track, good luck.
    Dave

    Thanks, I think the latch is clean and working properly but these Gottliebs are so sensitive. I love them but some of the relays on them can be a pain to get adjusted right when something does go wrong.

    #13 2 years ago

    For what it's worth, when it's time to adjust Gottlieb relays, I get out my magnifying glasses, a couple strong lights, a small piece of white paper, my Dremel tool and switch bender, and go at it methodically. I usually unscrew the switch stacks one at a time (unless they're wired together), get my Dremel brush in there to really get those contacts shiny, then put it back together, tighten the stack screws, examine the tabs for shorts/bad solder joints. Then while manually moving the armature up and down, I watch the contacts really carefully with my magnifying glasses on, a slip of white paper behind the switches, and a bright light (on the paper, not on the switches), I can easily see if the contacts are touching and sliding past one another slightly, then opening, or vice versa. It takes some time, but if I'm really careful about it, I don't have much trouble with them once I'm done.

    As dgAmpGuy said, those AX, BX, CX relays are about the worst since there's so little movement on the armature, but even those - once you get them dialed in, they work for quite a while. And getting to some of those stacks on the bottom/back of the score motor is a pain...

    I do some work for a local arcade here in town repairing the EM pins and rifle games, and after I've gone through those switches like that, we don't have much trouble with the EM's...they're mostly Gottliebs and once you get the switches cleaned and gapped, they're tanks. The SS pins on the other hand....

    You'll get this - just look at everything really closely and be patient.

    I only got to play a Top Card once - really liked it much better than I thought I would just looking at the playfield...clever ruleset! I enjoyed trying to get those pop bumpers lit up!

    #14 2 years ago

    I finally got some time to do some fine tuning on this issue today and it looks like the machine resets everything including the score reels like it should but then I’m not sure what is causing a new problem.

    After getting 7 straight resets correctly I put the A relay and Start relay back in their banks with their hitch pins and put the glass back on and tried to play a game and this is what happens:

    I push the start button and the Start relay engages but locks on and nothing happens including the Score motor not moving. Not sure what is keeping the Start relay locking on. The 2 make/break switches are gapped properly and making connection when opening and closing. It’s doesn’t seem to be a mechanical sticking because after the Start relay locks on, it immediately releases when I turn the power off.

    If I manually turn the score motor, everything resets like it should and the Start relay releases. Trying to figure out why the score motor is not getting the message to turn and release the relay lock-in for the Start relay.

    One problem fixed but another created. Just wondering if some switch is now misadjusted. I’m just not seeing it.

    #15 2 years ago

    The Start relay has a switch that should start the motor directly - the switch with RED-WH and YEL-RED wires. The Start relay will release on Motor 2B, once the motor turns.

    Top Card Motor Switches (resized).jpgTop Card Motor Switches (resized).jpg
    #16 2 years ago
    Quoted from DaMoib:

    The Start relay has a switch that should start the motor directly - the switch with RED-WH and YEL-RED wires. The Start relay will release on Motor 2B, once the motor turns.[quoted image]

    Thanks @damoib. I’ll check that particular switch on the Start relay to make sure it’s making good contact to get the score motor running.

    #17 2 years ago
    Quoted from DaMoib:

    The Start relay has a switch that should start the motor directly - the switch with RED-WH and YEL-RED wires. The Start relay will release on Motor 2B, once the motor turns.[quoted image]

    Thanks for pointing to that switch. I must have ham-handed it putting the relay back and it was opened just a hair too much. All good now. Thanks DaMoib and thanks to paulace for helping solve the score reel reset issue.

    #18 2 years ago

    Glad you got it working!

    #19 2 years ago
    Quoted from paulace:

    For what it's worth, when it's time to adjust Gottlieb relays, I get out my magnifying glasses, a couple strong lights, a small piece of white paper, my Dremel tool and switch bender, and go at it methodically. I usually unscrew the switch stacks one at a time (unless they're wired together), get my Dremel brush in there to really get those contacts shiny, then put it back together, tighten the stack screws, examine the tabs for shorts/bad solder joints. Then while manually moving the armature up and down, I watch the contacts really carefully with my magnifying glasses on, a slip of white paper behind the switches, and a bright light (on the paper, not on the switches), I can easily see if the contacts are touching and sliding past one another slightly, then opening, or vice versa. It takes some time, but if I'm really careful about it, I don't have much trouble with them once I'm done.
    As dgAmpGuy said, those AX, BX, CX relays are about the worst since there's so little movement on the armature, but even those - once you get them dialed in, they work for quite a while. And getting to some of those stacks on the bottom/back of the score motor is a pain...
    I do some work for a local arcade here in town repairing the EM pins and rifle games, and after I've gone through those switches like that, we don't have much trouble with the EM's...they're mostly Gottliebs and once you get the switches cleaned and gapped, they're tanks. The SS pins on the other hand....
    You'll get this - just look at everything really closely and be patient.
    I only got to play a Top Card once - really liked it much better than I thought I would just looking at the playfield...clever ruleset! I enjoyed trying to get those pop bumpers lit up!

    Thanks for all the tips. Seems like the more I learn, the more patient I am and I’m getting to the point where I can read schematics at maybe a 7 on a scale of 1-10 and that’s helped dramatically thanks to HowardR and others on here.

    And yes Top Card is a really fun game to play and I thought it would be anything but fun before I bought it. No Spinners, Drop Targets, Kickout holes etc. but the extra pair of slingshots and the 3 pop bumpers make it a blast to try and light the 4 different Specials.

    Thanks again. Marking this resolved.

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