10, same as the IPDB.

Ken

10, assuming there is at least 100 EMs that have 10 ratings. If not, then 8.

20, unless the game is rare. The more the game is reviewed, the better.

Some only took three....

I own all the top 25 EM games. Should I just list them here and you can transfer them to the pinside list?

10 would be great. However 5 should be the minimum.

The main issue is that there are way more Gottlieb pins and Gottlieb collectors, than the other pins. More Gottlieb games will have more ratings. The other pins in the past have not had the same treatment, due to rarer titles and less are available to actually play.

It looks like currently 3 ratings will get a game to the top (when rated high).

More Bally, Chicago Coin, Playmatic, Williams, etc. need to be rated. This is the problem.

How would 10 ratings work on games that only a few are left in existence? What you will end up with is games with big runs where many own them dominating the top of the list. That's why none of it really matters to me.

Pinside Bus Rating Tour, first stop, Casa O-din.

the top 3 games right now have below 10 reviews...am I missing something?

Small run, and/or rare games may get shafted but on the other hand just because 3 or 4 EM nuts love it doesn't make it top 5...I'm looking at you Ding Dong.

Or just because only three people own it. Reality is there are so many that most pinsiders may never see them all, let alone play them. And the rare ones will be left out in the cold. So people will vote on what they own or what they play at shows and places like the PHOF, and from what I have heard is those are pretty much the common, generic titles for the most part. I guess that's what makes a top game.

I know nothing about this and have a tough time helping with 5th grade math, but is there any way to "weight" the number of reviews? That might slow the volatility of the top spot...right now the list is fun to look at but essentially meaningless. I buy games I like anyway but the EM list especially is all over the map.

Personally, I think in the EM world with thousands of games and few owners that is enough.

I don't take much heed in it, but I find it refreshing now that one pinball maker no longer occupies almost all the top 50 spots. Maybe what is there now isn't what I would choose, but at least more games are getting exposure.

What's your problem with Ding Dong? I own it, I think it's a really good game, and I'm certainly not a nut.

That accounts for 1 of the 4 ratings that rocketed it to the top of the list...

No "problem" with Ding Dong, other than the fact that I had to just type that sentence. It's not the best EM ever made, not the #1 Em ever made, yet it held the top spot based on 3 or 4 ratings....just pointing out the facts.

Then what is? I like to take the era as a whole and compliment games with other games. I have some that I play more than others but without all of them it wouldn't seem right. To say one is the best is to say the others aren't as good. Sure some are turds, but there are lots of good ones. That's why I like the list the way it is, ever changing, and that gives respect to them all. You sure don't want it like that other list, do you?

I picked 10. Hey, how about putting a disclaimer on the EM list, spelling out the disparity since ems are respectivley 'fewer and farther between' in comparison. That would give the casual observer (noob) a barometer of sorts. Give the spiel about production numbers and their relevance to the list, and tell them to read reviews of pins they are considering vs the ratings. That would be a good service to new pin folk.

Edit-should leave it at 3-5 after reading others opinions.

Hot Potato Hot Potato Hot Potato Toss it to some one else...

Just how does one actually declare an EM pin as number 1. With 40 plus years of EM production.
All ratings are the opinion of the person rating the game, fully subjective.

I don't buy anything based on that list alone so it's not a major issue...but maybe change the name to something like "The Featured EM of the Day" or "Random EM Titles" or "Obscure EM Finds"...or just "An EM List(in no particular order or ranking)" because that's what it is functionally when you allow a machine with 3 rankings to crank up to the top.

I think you're a nut. A good nut though, since you're all about ems . Don't get too serious here knocking games and play, that belongs next door. The EM hangout should be/and was a real chill place.
*my apologies for being rude, but you don't have to dislike something to like another. You can just like what you like. Positive energy.

How bout "Some nice EM classics" ?

I like the concept of weighting the ratings based on production numbers, but some games are lacking accurate data and I'm not sure how Pinside code could account for that element. Several observations come to mind here. Just because something is 'rare' (low production numbers) doesn't mean it is automatically a great game. I have played/restored several very low production games that didn't do a thing for me........artwork, or game play.
Those production numbers were often based on how well a game was selling, which should correlate to earnings/people playing the game/fun game, right? On the other end of the spectrum, not every higher production game has withstood the test of time with the current collector audience IMO. If you want to collect a certain rare/unpopular game, why would you want it to gain in the rankings/popularity anyway? It will inflate the price and make it harder to find. A really good example for me is Abra Ca Dabra. Five years ago that game was often maligned for its 'dark/evil' art package (though I have always loved it, along with Black Sabbath, etc.). Often hard to sell due to that aspect, the truth is, it has a great geometry and ruleset. (Team One even better ruleset, but can't deal with the artwork). Lately, I haven't seen an Abra come up at alllocally, just on Greed-Bay for 5-10 times what they were a few years ago.

3 for sure as otherwise many games will never ever be recognized despite being awesome.

At the moment pretty much every Gottlieb 50's woodrail I have looked up needs 15 ratings. I know that is an error but for one of these games to get 15 ratings will never ever happen.

Heck, most will do well to get 3 and have their day in the sun

And some of the pre 1955 Gotts are among the best games ever made - my view of course.

No, it doesn't, because I didn't rate it.

Have you played it? How do you know? That's the whole issue here. There's so many games out there, nobody has probably played them all, so the whole thing is just subjective and really not worth getting riled up about it.

exactly, so don't get so riled. Ding Dong was just an example of the issue anyway. This is sounding a bit EM nutty

I voted for 10, but wish to take it back after further review. 3-5 would be the sweet spot I think. 10 would just relegate too many winners to the bottom for eternity.

Looks like the "Wiggler" is the top rated EM game of the week. 4 reviews has put it to the top behind games such as:
Abra Ca Da Bra
Sing Along
Kings and Queens
Fire Ball
Atlantis
Bank A Ball
2001
Fast Draw
El Dorado

Oh well

Perhaps some think Wiggler is a better game.

Oh well

Adios cucaracha!

I voted 10 SAME as IPDB .ice show has 9'tatingsl and until it gets rated by a l10th person it won't be on thier top 300". I think it's a top 10 Wedgehead and a much more challenging game than Ding Dong . I just played North Star and IS is a better game. Central Park is one of the most challenging Games , try getting that special it's a real bear

4-Roses, Trade Winds, Big Daddy, and Skill Pool aren't even on the top 100 list. So, yes it looks biased..

biased against Steve Kordek, designer of some of the most challenging EMs there are.

IPDB has them...maybe the pinside database just needs more time to season...though, a lot of the fans that rated those on IPDB may have died off prior to pinside's rise.

In all fairness, Kordek's Hot Line checks in at #58, Teachers Pet at #77, and Grand Prix at #99.

So I guess I'll just continue to make my own list and let the newbies use this list as a buyer's guide.

I combined the pinside and the ipdb lists to have a combined rating. But to be on the combined rating you had to have 10 ratings on both lists.

See results below

http://www.pinminster.com/em-pinball-rankings.html

Now that's one hell of a list.

*Pit Stop

Top 10 on my list.

Hi
I voted for 15. Or better - I very much like the post-24 - weighing. I once asked "Should we have categories - at least two: "2 inch flipperbats 3 inch flipperbats." No support." So I seldom look at ranking. When looking: I read the comments.
In ipdb I also read the comments in "Ratings and Comments" - AND ipdb shows "on its own, visible to the reader": Game-Play (there is the beef).
Maybe I am too stupid - when I click in pinside on the actual Number "1" - I only get the info "ranking points 8.814 out of ten" - and I can read the comments. HOW can I see "the ranking total of 8.814 is composed of details-art, details-Game-Play etc." ?
It does not help when I click on "I npw do rank this pin" - I can fill in my ranking - I never see OTHER pinsiders opinion - I can see ONLY comments.
In this form (as is) - pinside-rating is +/- useless. I rated my "loved pins", yes - "fair" I think, not giving 10 points to every pin / in every category.
In "How to rate a machine, 2008" they write - 4 categories: Game-Design, Artwork, Sound and Music, General Aspects - equal weight for the resulting Total-Rating. "Fun" is a subcategory in General Aspects - what is the weight of subcategory "Fun" in General Aspects - and the weight of General Aspect is only 25 % of total. I am not tempted to rate more pins. Greetings Rolf

People should be encouraged to rate games AND give a review. Minimum amount of reviews needed 3-5. Nothing's perfect, but not reviewing games isn't the answer imo.

Well 2 should be eliminated. Looking at a Williams set up. 2 ratings: an 8 and a 4 . that really tells me nothing

Hi Xericho +
the big question after the poll is: Do You adjust the rating system ? Do You consider (post-24) some sort of "weighting" - also: Refine the system making subcategories "2 inch flipper bats" and "3 inch flipperbats" ? Making subcategories "Williams" / "Bally" / "Gottlieb" / "others" ?
Do You reveal the secret of "how much weight has the subcategory "Playing FUN" on "Total Rate" ?

I look at the result of the poll: 38 votes (a bit dissapointing: The low number of people voting - does this mean: Pinsiders do not care about ranking ?) , current number for "eligible into top-100" is 3.
9 votes for 20 ratings, 4 votes for 15, 17 votes for 10, 8 votes for 5 ratings (pinsiders feeling comfortable with 3 ratings could not vote for "3" ratings). I read out of this result: Somewhere in 10, 11, 12 ratings is asked.
How about encouraging the raters to write a comment (when rating) - something like "this game attract me because ...". Greetings Rolf

The wait is killing me to see if The Wiggler finally gets knocked off the top spot that it's held for 1 consecutive week(s). Just a few more hours...

It's Wiggled its way into everyone's heart now. I bet it stays #1

The game Wiggler has been linked to this thread. Gotta hand it to Ted Zale. He was outside the box.

Should the 2 and 4 player versions be combined? Ex Surfer / Surf Champ.

Wiggler holds on...

One of the games with the most, if not the most reviews is C37 which is a "lower" production game and fairly rare to come across. That sort of contradicts the low production argument on reviews.

1600 production for a lateish 70's game isn't really rare as the late 70's GTB had a good survival rate.

Rare for me is woodrails with production runs of around 800 plus, and low survival rates. Some of those games will never get 3 reviews!