(Topic ID: 145729)

Top 100 - Consolidate Pro/Prem Rankings (Poll included!)

By Damonator

8 years ago


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  • 51 posts
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  • Latest reply 7 years ago by hottubr
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    Topic poll

    “Should Pro/Prem Models Be Consolidated in the Top 100?”

    • Yes - consolidate 87 votes
      63%
    • No - leave it alone 52 votes
      37%

    (139 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

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    There are 51 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
    #1 8 years ago

    In my opinion - when compiling the top 100 list, having different entries for the "Pro" model vs "Prem/LE" model just clutters things up. I realize that there are differences between gameplay on the models so I think the ability to rate them separately should continue - but I'd like to see the higher of either the Pro or Prem ranking as the only entry in the top 100 list. On the home page for the game, the Pro ranking and Prem ranking could still be shown separately.

    Agree/Disagree? - vote in the poll.

    #2 8 years ago

    Yes

    And for gods sake get rid of TAF gold edition, Tron and Tron LE are basically the same game. It's not like you're having a rating for AcDc LE and one for premium and one for Luci (for gods sake).

    I understand there'll be some pins that are different like XMLE and pro but it's not sustainable to have 2-3 editions of all new games added to the top100.

    #3 8 years ago

    I would keep Pro and Premium/LE models independent. Too much difference in gameplay and features.

    #4 8 years ago

    Yes, I agree with the method of taking the higher of the two, and then when you click on it it could show all versions.

    #5 8 years ago

    Why would we do this? They have entirely different gameplay. Different toys, different layout, different art, even music. They're different games, sometimes vastly different as GOT shows. Seeing only the higher ranked one doesn't make sense.

    That's like saying we should combine Family Guy and Shrek because it's the same game, or 2 player and 4 player EMs with the same layout.

    #6 8 years ago

    I think we need MORE rankings per game. Where is IM Refinery Edition, Black Knight LE, and Tron-Pro-modded-to-be-like-the-LE?

    #7 8 years ago

    Just to be clear, TAF gold should not be on the list at all, we don't have a separate rating for SM black or LOTR LE or IMVE, it's just a different version of the same game. (Maybe the rom is different but that can be switched to the the regular I'd assume).

    If we could just get rid of TAF gold that would be a step in the right direction.

    #8 8 years ago
    Quoted from rai:

    Just to be clear, TAF gold should not be on the list at all, we don't have a separate rating for SM black or LOTR LE or IMVE, it's just a different version of the same game. (Maybe the rom is different but that can be switched to the the regular I'd assume).
    If we could just get rid of TAF gold that would be a step in the right direction.

    Actually, there is a separate rating for LOTR LE - it's #32 whereas LOTR is #6. That makes no sense whatsoever.

    Quoted from Toasterdog:

    I would keep Pro and Premium/LE models independent. Too much difference in gameplay and features.

    I agree the separate ratings should continue - but only displaying one of them in the top 100 list. LOTR & TAF are perfect examples.

    #9 8 years ago
    Quoted from DefaultGen:

    Why would we do this? They have entirely different gameplay.

    Because it's ridiculous to rank them both, that's why. In practice, the Pro, Premium and LE are rated about the same. If I want to know how much better the LE is than the Pro, I'm not going to subtract their relative rankings. I'm going to read threads where Prem/Pro owners have a discussion about whether it's worth going to Premium.

    I mean, look at Tron right now:

    TronRank.PNGTronRank.PNG

    Does it really make sense to have separate entries, when their rating is only 0.001 apart?

    #10 8 years ago

    Tron and Tron pro have basically the exact same rating.

    #11 8 years ago

    TAF Gold has different rules (basically does little but makes it worse tournament game) and a different trim. Why wouldn't it have a different rating?

    LOTR LE has an ugly backglass.

    Yes the games have improvements, but the more expensive versions of the games aren't always 100% better in every way. Pinside ratings are clunky. If you change your rating in one highly weighted category from a 6 to a 5 that has a pretty big swing in the overall rating.

    #13 8 years ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    I mean, look at Tron right now:
    TronRank.PNG
    Does it really make sense to have separate entries, when their rating is only 0.001 apart?

    Tron is the most similar game between LE and Pro and the ratings are practically identical. Pinside ratings works!

    #14 8 years ago

    Maybe a case by case hands on approach better than a blanket all in one rule.

    For a start, if the games are the same like Tron and Tron LE lets consolidate that. Let's get rid of TAF and LOTR as having multiple copies of the same game. It's only going to get worse as more games are released such as three editions of The Hobbit when that comes out in 2016(maybe).

    #15 8 years ago

    Metallica Premium/LE: 8.489
    Metallica Pro: 8.413

    I get it, the Premium version is 0.9% better than the Pro version. But I would rather see more games in the top 100. Especially since some of the 80's classics are starting to move up there. Don't punish past pins for only having one version!

    #16 8 years ago

    Same with ST and STLE

    #17 8 years ago

    There are 7 pins that appear twice in the top 100: GoT, Metallica, ST, Tron, AC/DC, X-Men and KISS. Here are the games they pushed off the list:

    Stargate
    Centaur 2 (ugh, another repeat!)
    Space Shuttle
    No Fear
    Royal Rumble (WWF)
    Embryon
    Quicksilver

    #18 8 years ago
    Quoted from DefaultGen:

    TAF Gold has different rules (basically does little but makes it worse tournament game) and a different trim. Why wouldn't it have a different rating?
    LOTR LE has an ugly backglass.
    Yes the games have improvements, but the more expensive versions of the games aren't always 100% better in every way. Pinside ratings are clunky. If you change your rating in one highly weighted category from a 6 to a 5 that has a pretty big swing in the overall rating.

    So an ugly backglass justifies 2 entries for LOTR in the top 100?

    And TAF/TAFG have the exact same gameplay, just different code - you can easily install TAFG ROMs in TAF and vice-versa.

    #19 8 years ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    There are 7 pins that appear twice in the top 100: GoT, Metallica, ST, Tron, AC/DC, X-Men and KISS. Here are the games they pushed off the list:
    Stargate
    Centaur 2 (ugh, another repeat!)
    Space Shuttle
    No Fear
    Royal Rumble (WWF)
    Embryon
    Quicksilver

    TWD, LOTR and TAF too - but the problem is going to get more pronounced as each new Stern title is released.

    #20 8 years ago

    And only one entry for WOZ? Weren't there like 7 different versions?

    #21 8 years ago

    Avengers pro is voted much lower than Avengers LE last time I checked. Same thing for AC/DC.

    #22 8 years ago
    Quoted from Damonator:

    So an ugly backglass justifies 2 entries for LOTR in the top 100?
    And TAF/TAFG have the exact same gameplay, just different code - you can easily install TAFG ROMs in TAF and vice-versa.

    Gameplay is just one of 16 ratings you give a game. Rules are another one of the 16. Art fields make up 4 different ratings. When these things are different, the ratings should be different.

    If you want to combine very similar games, give us a less granular rating system. I'm all in support of simplifying the rating system, I think it's ridiculous and outputs a meaningless average number in the end.

    pasted_image.pngpasted_image.png

    #23 8 years ago

    The list isn't fair to begin with... All voters need to have played all games in the list.

    For example, if only 3 people have access to Alien Star, and 100 people have access to METLE, it is impossible for Alien Star to beat METLE once METLE gets greater than 3 votes.

    To make it fair, the same 100 people need access to both Alien Star and METLE and then let all 100 people vote between the two.

    With any other method the poll is unfairly stacked ... And not useful

    #24 8 years ago
    Quoted from bayoubilly70:

    For example, if only 3 people have access to Alien Star, and 100 people have access to METLE, it is impossible for Alien Star to beat METLE once METLE gets greater than 3 votes.

    Isn't the current list weighted by number of voters? Take the total score and divide it by the number of people that vote for it

    #25 8 years ago

    Making a difference between Pro and Premium/LE makes sense. Making a Difference between Premium and LE does not make sense, because there is a more or less big impact on gameplay. So well done by the pinside team!

    But... LOTR / LOTR LE - gameplay 100% the same... so this should be combined, same with SM / BSM, TAF / TAFG (Gold ROM can be run on normal TAFs)... maybe there are more to be combined.

    If you say no, they have to remain separated, because of different artwork... then actually it does not make sense to have Premium and LE in one package...

    But be aware... that is a 110% first world problem

    #26 8 years ago

    Is it? Sorry. My bad if it is

    #27 8 years ago

    All Pinside problems are first-world problems.

    #28 8 years ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    All Pinside problems are first-world problems.

    True but irrelevant.

    [EDIT: Sorry, didn't see you were responding to someone else preemptively labeling their own post as a "first world problem." I find that response incredibly annoying on a site like this for the reason you point out, it's not like we're distracting Pinsiders from solving world hunger by complaining about how the Top 100 is calculated -- we're all here exclusively to talk about expensive toys, for f@$k's sake!]

    #29 8 years ago

    I'm more concerned with some of the dipshits that rate games. I would be into policing the ratings more.

    #30 8 years ago
    Quoted from foureyedcharlie:

    I'm more concerned with some of the dipshits that rate games.

    Heeeeeey!

    #31 8 years ago

    I couldn't agree more that the ratings need to be consolidated. Sure, there are some feature differences, but the overwhelming majority of the game is the same. Although I don't think ratings are everything (after all, I do have a Popeye in my collection), I enjoy sometimes browsing the Top 100 List and I would welcome seeing more variety in it.

    I also think there should be a way to list how many games you've played on a particular machine when you rate it. There could be some behind the scenes formula that gives weight to your rating based on the number of games you've played. For example, a rating from someone who has played 25 games on a machine would be weighted slightly more in the game's total ranking than a rating from someone who has played 3 games. I hate reading ratings that say "I walked away after my second ball" and then that person posts a review bashing the game. I know how subjective reviews and rankings are, but I don't know of any pinball machine that could be fairly rated after playing less than a handful of games.

    #32 8 years ago
    Quoted from swampfire:

    All Pinside problems are first-world problems.

    Yepp - true.
    Maybe it was not 100% the right wording

    Okay let me try to make it a bit clearer... First of all - Any rating is subjective, so way to get an academic, analytic way to get an one and only truth. We can discuss for the rest of our lifes, wat would be the appropriate solution. There is no one and only truth also for consolidating and what really can be consolidated. The pinside team came up already with a compromise - treating Premiums and LEs as one, even though this is not consistent regarding SM, TAF, Centaur, EBD,...

    Putting the Stern Pros and Premiums/LEs together would not be fair, since there is sometimes a big difference. A difference which makes you invest 2k pls X more or the other way round less into a machine. With this amount another machine can be bought (or two), so it's potentially a huge difference

    From my very personal point of view AC/DC, MET have to be Premium/LE or I wouldn't buy them. For X-Men, ST or Tron the difference is supersmall or I like the Pro version even better...

    So why consolidating - only because of getting a machine you/me/she/he like/s some ranks up?

    #33 8 years ago
    Quoted from DefaultGen:

    That's like saying we should combine Family Guy and Shrek because it's the same game, or 2 player and 4 player EMs with the same layout.

    I agree with you regarding Family Guy/Shrek, but why wouldn't 2/4 player games (or 1/2 player games) that are the same be ranked together?

    I have Jungle Princess, gameplay & graphics are the same as Jungle Queen and is a popular EM. But both are likely ranked lower than they "should" be because their ratings are split. To combat this I've ranked both the same, though I've never actually played "Queen".

    #34 8 years ago
    Quoted from Rando:

    I agree with you regarding Family Guy/Shrek, but why wouldn't 2/4 player games (or 1/2 player games) that are the same be ranked together?
    I have Jungle Princess, gameplay & graphics are the same as Jungle Queen and is a popular EM. But both are likely ranked lower than they "should" be because their ratings are split. To combat this I've ranked both the same, though I've never actually played "Queen".

    ... or Replay vs. Add-a-ball.

    #35 8 years ago

    The poll doesn't lie. One rating for all models!

    #36 8 years ago

    some pros and premiums play differently--therefore they will be rated differently--therefore they should be rated separately

    #37 8 years ago
    Quoted from KenPin:

    some pros and premiums play differently--therefore they will be rated differently--therefore they should be rated separately

    I agree, they should be RATED separately. But the ratings should be aggregated (averaged) for RANKING.

    #38 8 years ago

    Thinking out loud again.

    What if the top list was ranked differently. Instead of each person grading points to each game to come up with a score that is tallied together on one list.

    How about removing the points system and have a top list for each person with a simple ranked system, than have the lists congealed into the master list.

    For example I rank games in my own personal top 100 list. I don't rank game features with points, I just rank games on a scale: MY #1, MY #2, MY #3 ect. Then all the personal lists are added together to come up with the community list. The master list might not change much, but then you could see what games each person rankes best to worse.

    That way one person cannot rank GoT and TH both with 1 point. They would be forced to place one higher than the other on their personal list.

    #39 8 years ago

    I actually agree with this to a degree. If there was a way to keep pro ratings separate, but have them listed under the LE roll up, I am for it. There are too many games and ithe list is getting ridiculous.

    #40 8 years ago
    Quoted from bayoubilly70:

    For example, if only 3 people have access to Alien Star, and 100 people have access to METLE, it is impossible for Alien Star to beat METLE once METLE gets greater than 3 votes.

    just like anyone who reviews a restaurant has eaten at every restaurant in the world, right?

    #41 8 years ago

    totally agree with just list only the highest ranked version of a game and then have the ratings for the other versions on the page but not in the rank listing

    #42 8 years ago
    Quoted from AJB4:

    totally agree with just list only the highest ranked version of a game and then have the ratings for the other versions on the page but not in the rank listing

    Sounds like a good compromise to me.

    #43 8 years ago
    Quoted from Luckydogg420:

    Thinking out loud again.
    What if the top list was ranked differently. Instead of each person grading points to each game to come up with a score that is tallied together on one list.
    How about removing the points system and have a top list for each person with a simple ranked system, than have the lists congealed into the master list.
    For example I rank games in my own personal top 100 list. I don't rank game features with points, I just rank games on a scale: MY #1, MY #2, MY #3 ect. Then all the personal lists are added together to come up with the community list. The master list might not change much, but then you could see what games each person rankes best to worse.
    That way one person cannot rank GoT and TH both with 1 point. They would be forced to place one higher than the other on their personal list.

    Something like http://pinmash.info might work (it's for pin pins, not pinball pins). It shows you two pins, you click which one's better, do that 10000 times and you get a bunch of data to compile a fancy ranking list.

    #44 8 years ago
    Quoted from DefaultGen:

    Something like http://pinmash.info might work (it's for pin pins, not pinball pins). It shows you two pins, you click which one's better, do that 10000 times and you get a bunch of data to compile a fancy ranking list.

    I agree. A better than/worse than rank is better to have then a numerical Value that's easily marked as all 1's or 10's

    #45 8 years ago

    I am all for consolidating, but it's technically quite a challenge in an already complex piece of code (old code, with roots back to 2003) which I'm not particularly looking forward to messing with too much.

    I have also been thinking about building a new ratings system. Simpler, less susceptible to trolling, etc. I had a great talk with Lyman about this, a while back. We came up with a pretty cool system which might replace the current Top 100 system in the future. I'll see if I can publish that here later so you can tell me what you think about it.

    4 months later
    #46 7 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    I am all for consolidating, but it's technically quite a challenge in an already complex piece of code (old code, with roots back to 2003) which I'm not particularly looking forward to messing with too much.
    I have also been thinking about building a new ratings system. Simpler, less susceptible to trolling, etc. I had a great talk with Lyman about this, a while back. We came up with a pretty cool system which might replace the current Top 100 system in the future. I'll see if I can publish that here later so you can tell me what you think about it.

    So...now that you are back from your TPF trip and your batteries are recharged.... it's time to get to work!!!

    I still am all for consolidating the versions for ranking purposes - but on the flip-side, I'd like to expand the versions for non-ranking purposes. ie - the ability to pick the exact version of a game in the market/collection/etc. So for newer sterns, you could select PRO/PREMIUM/LE. This would be particularly helpful in the market when looking at price history or searching for a game.

    #47 7 years ago

    Yes get rid of the seperate rankings!

    #48 7 years ago

    I just want to be able to link to, search for, or add MMr to a collection, as distinct from MM, and have it not be a separate entry in the top 100 (since gameplay is basically identical).

    #49 7 years ago
    Quoted from robin:

    I have also been thinking about building a new ratings system. Simpler, less susceptible to trolling, etc. I had a great talk with Lyman about this, a while back. We came up with a pretty cool system which might replace the current Top 100 system in the future. I'll see if I can publish that here later so you can tell me what you think about it.

    I'm all for this. The current system while still helpful doesn't make sense with a couple of games. If this were to play out I think it'd be another 50/50 poll. 1/2 for 1/2 against

    2 weeks later
    #50 7 years ago
    Quoted from Damonator:

    So...now that you are back from your TPF trip and your batteries are recharged.... it's time to get to work!!!
    I still am all for consolidating the versions for ranking purposes - but on the flip-side, I'd like to expand the versions for non-ranking purposes. ie - the ability to pick the exact version of a game in the market/collection/etc. So for newer sterns, you could select PRO/PREMIUM/LE. This would be particularly helpful in the market when looking at price history or searching for a game.

    Oh, believe me, I would love to tackle this. It's really high on my list. But as I was jotting down the amount of work this involves... Man! It would take me weeks of coding and that's not something I can afford right now (time-wise).

    There are 51 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.

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