(Topic ID: 107388)

Top 10 Things to Remember if you're a Pinball Startup

By badbilly27

9 years ago


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  • Latest reply 9 years ago by RobT
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    #1 9 years ago

    1. The internet is not just for announcing a new pinball machine & getting deposits - it's about ongoing communications with owners and the community. Correct that - honest communications good or bad.

    2. If you take money from customers, you now have entered into an unholy covenant with them. It is your responsibility to communicate schedules changes, delays, and build dates at least with owners.

    Asking hobbyists for a deposit/money then missing deadlines, not sharing new deadlines, and just not communicating any more will sink your brand, personal reputation, and fuel community resentment. If you don't want to be this transparent, then follow Stern and stop taking deposits before the game is ready.

    3. Refunds should be honored based on your stated agreement to owners - no exceptions.

    You stated a policy and brand promise to your customer, keep it - period. See #1 & #2

    4. Don't change business model during build.

    Your lack of preparation and business modeling should not become owners problems. Again, if you're taking money from owners you entered the unholy agreement willingly. Creating limited, then unlimited, LE but now add on kits to LE, special anniversary additions, no premiums, now premiums, etc. See #1 & #2

    5. Make owners feel special.

    If you took money, they have invested in your company and product. They like you, like them back. They are your early adopters, evangelists, free advertising, refer people, repeat customers. Create special message boards, communications, events, hug them when you see them regardless how bad they smell. Forsake them and the word of mouth can sink your company and future sales.

    6. Deliver on your promises.

    Communication is great but when you make promises keep them. All the good intention in the world can blow up in your face if you miss on this one. Dates may change, this stuff is hard - be honest and communicate - we get it. But when you make a final promise (i.e. confirmed delivery date, new code/feature, build order, only owners get access and play, etc) deliver on it. Don't promise if you have no intention on delivering.

    7. Respect your competition.

    It's a small industry why take pot shots? It looks petty. Learn from each other and collaborate where appropriate in furthering your business. Your competitor today may be your partner tomorrow.

    8. It's ok to ask for help.

    Whether it's the community or another pinball company, sometimes you did not expect it to get this hard. Leave your ego at the door and ask for help. It's not a sign of weakness but of strength. In the end it's about delivering a product that hits the mark with paying customers, not having a collectible trading card with your likeness.

    9. Choose someone other than the CEO/owner to handle company communications.

    While well intentioned and sometimes respected, you have more to lose than gain. Some customers will never be happy, allow for an escalation path. CEO's coming on message boards fighting with unreasonable owners just looks bad no matter how it ends. Keep those escalations private, let a responsible communications person handle the boards. One layer removed in this case is good.

    10. Plan and commit to channel management model

    Who will distribute and support your product? If you accept direct payment from an owner AND want to have distributors - clearly communicate delivery priority before accepting deposits/money. If an owner buys direct from pinball manufacturer why do they wait for their machine over distributor order - volume? You've just created a channel conflict. Either sell through distributors or direct. Make both customers happy. One foot in, one foot out doesn't work.

    So what did we learn? Communication could eliminate much of the natives carrying pitchforks jumping from MMr, Hobbit, JPOP and now Predator boards. Pinball makers (whom we root for and try to love, we want to love you) want to embrace the community and leverage online to position yourselves as different than Stern and sell boutique pins - then please act that way after you get our money not just before.

    You are one of us when you go back to acting like one of us - communicating honestly whether we like the message or not. Marketing 101 - big or small you can't escape the basics once you have our deposit.

    Please keep this thread positive - not bashing a specific boutique. What can new pinball companies do differently or learn to make us even more excited to embrace them? Good business practices? Remember, positive thread (save the pitchforks for other threads).

    #2 9 years ago

    e679dc24c62d81bfcc53ca5f417dfd7a.jpge679dc24c62d81bfcc53ca5f417dfd7a.jpg
    #3 9 years ago

    BadBilly27, how many businesses do you own?

    11
    #4 9 years ago
    Quoted from badbilly27:

    Please keep this thread positive - not bashing a specific boutique. What can new pinball companies do differently or learn to make us even more excited to embrace them? Good business practices? Remember, positive thread (save the pitchforks for other threads).

    I thought Benheck did it great. No silence or secrecy. He let everyone see as AMH progressed, stayed active in the community, answered questions directly, etc. If he chooses to make another pin I would absolutely be interested.

    14
    #5 9 years ago
    Quoted from PopBumperPete:

    BadBilly27, how many businesses do you own?

    Sure, I'll pull mine out and measure with you.

    22 years in global marketing, product management and strategy at Fortune 500 companies and some small business. Most recently, senior executive at a fortune 50 global company doing product marketing and management for last 10 years, managing over $800M portfolio.

    Ok let's measure yours?

    12
    #6 9 years ago
    Quoted from PopBumperPete:

    BadBilly27, how many businesses do you own?

    Pie In The Face2.jpgPie In The Face2.jpg

    #7 9 years ago
    Quoted from badbilly27:

    Sure, I'll pull mine out and measure with you.
    22 years in global marketing, product management and strategy at Fortune 500 companies and some small business. Most recently, senior executive at a fortune 50 global company doing product marketing and management for last 10 years, managing over $800M portfolio.
    Ok let's measure yours?

    OK, so you are just an employee

    I own a bakery

    #8 9 years ago
    Quoted from PopBumperPete:

    OK, so you are just an employee
    I own a bakery

    Exactly what point(s) of his original post did you not agree with?

    Those all seemed reasonable and well written.

    #9 9 years ago

    Yep. Great mantra to do business with.

    -7
    #10 9 years ago
    Quoted from zucot:

    Exactly what point(s) of his original post did you not agree with?
    Those all seemed reasonable and well written.

    Thinking that any of these new startups will be reading and responding to his post

    You have to have a high level of confidence in yourself to invest the time and money needed to start making pinballs
    Reading people opinions on any forum is a waste of time/energy for them

    A real business adviser would know this

    10
    #11 9 years ago
    Quoted from PopBumperPete:

    Reading people opinions on any forum is a waste of time/energy for them

    Yes, direct feedback from pre-order and potential clients is a waste of time....

    #12 9 years ago
    Quoted from PopBumperPete:

    Thinking that any of these new startups will be reading and responding to his post

    You have to have a high level of confidence in yourself to invest the time and money needed to start making pinballs
    Reading people opinions on any forum is a waste of time/energy for them

    A real business adviser would know this

    First of all you missed the entire purpose of this thread. If you prefer to go to other threads and watch all the slamming & negativity directed to start ups be my guest. I tried to start a positive thread with "best of" suggestions that combines "best practices" from the mouths of their customers. My list was a scarecrow for which we can add clothes to based on others suggestions.

    A bakery is different than a pinball company with some start-up similarities. I sincerely hope your business is super successful. But if people come in and keep asking for gluten free or other products and you ignore them because you know better and it's waste of your time to listen to them rather than just bake, I doubt you have a successful business unless it's your Dad's.

    Pinside is a market researchers "wet dream". You can have a direct dialogue with your customer. You don't have to listen or do everything, but you're keeping the pulse on your customer's wants/needs/desires. Every business is using facebook, twitter, yelp whatever since they know the power of social media in influencing purchase decisions, brand identity, etc. Well, I guess except for your bakery. Hope your not paying your business advisor too much.

    #13 9 years ago
    Quoted from PopBumperPete:

    Thinking that any of these new startups will be reading and responding to his post
    You have to have a high level of confidence in yourself to invest the time and money needed to start making pinballs
    Reading people opinions on any forum is a waste of time/energy for them
    A real business adviser would know this

    Whats the name of your bakery? Id love to order something.

    #14 9 years ago
    Quoted from badbilly27:

    Pinside is a market researchers "wet dream". You can have a direct dialogue with your customer. You don't have to listen or do everything, but you're keeping the pulse on your customer's wants/needs/desires. Every business is using facebook, twitter, yelp whatever since they know the power of social media in influencing purchase decisions, brand identity, etc. Well, I guess except for your bakery. Hope your not paying your business advisor too much.

    Ahhh
    I think I better hold off on posting my opinion of business advisers

    #15 9 years ago
    Quoted from PopBumperPete:

    Ahhh
    I think I better hold off on posting my opinion of business advisers

    Fair enough. And for the record, I'm not a business advisor. A business advisor in the US is like a consultant (i.e. Accenture). I've always owned the revenue for my products/portfolio - business owner.

    Sincerely, not sure if Yelp provides coverage in your local area but keep an eye on it. Many bakeries and restaurants in the US - whether they subscribe or not - are reviewed by customers on that site and mobile app. Many people use those reviews to form opinions about eating or visiting those businesses. I've seen businesses respond to customer complaints and invite them back to sample food again. Worth a look.

    #16 9 years ago

    Is it a fortune 500 bakery?

    #17 9 years ago

    Nice original post, why get off that topic?

    I think there is a lot to be said for some of your suggestions however some of those companies are operating in a manner that would not allow them to have a communications person or business advisor. I find the majority of pinball people to be awkward and a little introverted. Usually not the best business owners.

    #18 9 years ago

    Gary Stern's words are echoing in my head... "I'm in the manufacturing business".... maybe he does have it right.

    The easy part is designing a pinball machine.

    #19 9 years ago

    There are a lot of perspectives here:

    "Blame the customers"
    Maybe folks shouldn't send companies checks for products that don't exist.

    "Be like Stern"
    Announce the game you are making when its made and we can play it/see it.

    "Don't ask for pre-orders/deposits"
    Take a loan out, get investors, use your own money, ask your parents, marry rich, win the lotto..

    "Risk"
    A new pinball company might not even know how to make a pinball well, let alone communicate.

    "Hire a communication guru!"
    It doesn't matter if the CEO or an MBA super model tells me bad news about the progress of the game, its still bad news..

    etc..

    #20 9 years ago
    Quoted from inhomearcades:

    Nice original post, why get off that topic?

    Thanks for the reminder, you're right. I'm putting it away back in it's cage. Apologies.

    did-you-know-you-could-injure-your-junk-like-this-1768537734-dec-15-2012-1-600x400.jpgdid-you-know-you-could-injure-your-junk-like-this-1768537734-dec-15-2012-1-600x400.jpg
    #21 9 years ago
    Quoted from inhomearcades:

    I think there is a lot to be said for some of your suggestions however some of those companies are operating in a manner that would not allow them to have a communications person or business advisor.

    Most of the companies have a few other people involved. Anyone of them could be tasked with weekly updates.

    Quoted from frolic:

    Gary Stern's words are echoing in my head... "I'm in the manufacturing business".... maybe he does have it right.

    The easy part is designing a pinball machine.

    Very good point. The wisdom of Stern is shining through some. Stern just needs to refine and continue to embrace their customers more. I think they've started this movement thanks to boutiques.

    #22 9 years ago
    Quoted from badbilly27:

    Most of the companies have a few other people involved. Anyone of them could be tasked with weekly updates.

    Very good point. The wisdom of Stern is shining through some. Stern just needs to refine and continue to embrace their customers more. I think they've started this movement thanks to boutiques.

    I know they could be, however your dealing with hobbiests, not business people. To expect that is asking a lot when they have never even considered it or heard of it. Thus why I originally said, they is a good topic you started. I know many of the boutique guys out there read the forum, bad billy has brought up some valid points. Maybe not all are achievable for the boutique guys, but some of them are easy marks to hit.

    #23 9 years ago

    If, and it's 99.99999% unlikely I would ever be involved with a boutique game, I wouldn't say a word about the game until they were ready to sell. I would show up at expo with a trailer full of games, that were ready to go and make an announcement of the title. I would approach it this way because I think way too many boutique guys bite off more than they can chew with little of their own skin in the game. I would build the games on my dime, on my time. Build 25-30 machines and see what happens. You will have sales immediately and create a waiting list there on out.

    #24 9 years ago

    I don't know. An "unholy covenant"? What happened to just a simple contract?

    #25 9 years ago

    Sounds like a good mantra.

    #26 9 years ago
    Quoted from Methos:

    I don't know. An "unholy covenant"? What happened to just a simple contract?

    Felt more dramatic when I was writing it. Contract works too.

    Note to self: Stop watching so much Supernatural, Grimm and Constatine

    #27 9 years ago
    Quoted from inhomearcades:

    If, and it's 99.99999% unlikely I would ever be involved with a boutique game, I wouldn't say a word about the game until they were ready to sell. I would show up at expo with a trailer full of games, that were ready to go and make an announcement of the title. I would approach it this way because I think way too many boutique guys bite off more than they can chew with little of their own skin in the game. I would build the games on my dime, on my time. Build 25-30 machines and see what happens. You will have sales immediately and create a waiting list there on out.

    You'd probably need at least $0.5M cash flow for this approach to work. On one hand I agree that starting a business is a risky proposition and you should have plenty of your own money on the line, but this would also stifle some of the exciting new start-ups. I think most people would be fine with a middle ground like Heighway and Spooky are using where you largely pay when the machine enters manufacturing and before it ships. I think the JJP or JPOP type model of asking buyers to finance the company is really bad for the hobby since start ups are destined to have problems or even fail completely.

    Personally, I am buying TH, AMH and MMR. I purchased them all with relatively small up front deposits supposedly ahead of production or shipment. The supposedly is because Jack / PPS are not living up to their commitment of not requiring full payment on MMR until just prior to shipment. Live and learn.

    #28 9 years ago

    It's only a matter if time that one or more of these pin startups will be a spectacular failure. It seems reckless today to crowd fund any of them, short of a $1000 deposit or something so they can determine their market. But paying for the whole thing at the start, some people are definitely going to lose their money.

    #29 9 years ago

    Failure is an important part of life. It helps us learn and get it right. I wish no bad outcomes on the many current pinball start ups, but not all can or will succeed. Some will fail because the people involved don't have the skill set to complete the process. Some will fail due to unforeseen issues or things totally out of their control. I'm enjoying the resurgence, but a lot of it is unlikely to survive long term.

    14
    #30 9 years ago

    Under-promise and over-deliver. I have owned my own business for 28 years. This is what I live by.

    Building a game or selling a product that "sells itself" is great, but if communication fails, promises are not delivered on, or you just become an "ass hat"......you're f*cking yourself.

    I do not sell tangible items, everything I sell is based on a promise. When I promise a call back within 24 hours, my goal is to call them back within 12. If I know the cost is $900, I will estimate $950-$1000. Its much better to come to the table with good news rather than excuses.

    One thing I can say from my experience is that companies don't fully understand how long a bad taste can stay in a customers mouth. Tell the customer about the sweet candy, let them see it, feel it, and then taste it. On the other hand, if you over-hype the candy, change it from Strawberry to Cherry, and never answer/return a call asking about the change, expect to have that candy sit on the shelves. Its much harder to get that bad taste out of their mouths than it is to keep the sweet candy in their mouths.

    There have been many times where I just screwed the pooch. In times like that I try to do everything I can do to not only make it right, but make it better. In this example where we are talking about a pinball start-up...if you screw the pooch, do something that shows you give a shit. Your brand is depending on it. And even for the guys that have been around for a while...read Pinside, listen to your distributors....if something as simple as having a printed manual is important to your customers, provide them one, (even if you think its stupid)....If guys are complaining about communication...double it up, send out more info than they could ever want. It doesn't have to be epic announcements, it could be info that is commonplace in the industry but would be great to hear to the end customer.

    An expression I use all the time with my customers is this simple. "What can I do for you?" You'd be surprised at what I hear. Regardless of how ridiculous the request may be, its important enough to the customer to request it. Don't take it lightly...how you deal with that simple "ridiculous" request, could be how your company is looked upon and talked about far into the future.

    #31 9 years ago

    bumping for collective positive recommendations

    #32 9 years ago
    Quoted from frolic:

    It's only a matter if time that one or more of these pin startups will be a spectacular failure. It seems reckless today to crowd fund any of them, short of a $1000 deposit or something so they can determine their market. But paying for the whole thing at the start, some people are definitely going to lose their money.

    Over the next 2 years, the market is going to be flooded with pins. More choices usually equals happy customers. And to date customers can't wait to get their hands on new products, paying several years in advance to hold a spot in line to receive a pin. However, I agree with frolic that there is definitely more danger/risk on the horizon. The market will become saturated, the average cost of pins will continue to increase, putting pressure on being able to entice customers to pay $8k + on a pinball machine. Then, the inevitable leveling out of pin production to come inline with the demand, which can introduce price pressure on all new pins.

    Will that put a few promising companies (or an established company) out of business? Hard to tell, but I would not be surprised if the market continues to quickly escalate, then hits that "bubble" and comes back down fast.

    #33 9 years ago

    #11 - Acquire the license (if needed) with the ability to use actors likeness & voices and the ability to advertise at the very least until all games have shipped.

    #34 9 years ago

    Having a completed working prototype ready for demonstration before taking any money would seem to be just as important or maybe more than any of the other items listed.

    Most salesmen will deliver a line of BS to get your money. But at least show more than a drawing of what it is that you are selling.

    #35 9 years ago

    Good rules to a abide by bad billy
    One thing is for sure, if a business is going to use Pinside as their base of customers, they better have their act together.

    #36 9 years ago

    Having a completed working prototype ready for demonstration before taking any money would seem to be just as important or maybe more than any of the other items listed.
    Most salesmen will deliver a line of BS to get your money. But at least show more than a drawing of what it is that you are selling.

    More to the point, prototype will prove you know what you are doing
    RRedesigning circuit boards halfway through productiondoes not inspire cconfidence

    4 months later
    #37 9 years ago

    Edit: Make sure you have the "full" theme license BEFORE asking for payments AND can demonstrate proof of license to community.

    #38 9 years ago
    Quoted from inhomearcades:

    If, and it's 99.99999% unlikely I would ever be involved with a boutique game, I wouldn't say a word about the game until they were ready to sell. I would show up at expo with a trailer full of games, that were ready to go and make an announcement of the title. I would approach it this way because I think way too many boutique guys bite off more than they can chew with little of their own skin in the game. I would build the games on my dime, on my time. Build 25-30 machines and see what happens. You will have sales immediately and create a waiting list there on out.

    this x1000 right here

    if companies didn't announce these things and take tons of preorders (which seemingly people are more than willing to give thousands to someone they don't know for something they have never seen... it blows my mind

    #39 9 years ago
    Quoted from inhomearcades:

    If, and it's 99.99999% unlikely I would ever be involved with a boutique game, I wouldn't say a word about the game until they were ready to sell. I would show up at expo with a trailer full of games, that were ready to go and make an announcement of the title. I would approach it this way because I think way too many boutique guys bite off more than they can chew with little of their own skin in the game. I would build the games on my dime, on my time. Build 25-30 machines and see what happens. You will have sales immediately and create a waiting list there on out.

    You must be psychic; Rumor has it that this will happen this calendar year.

    #40 9 years ago
    Quoted from frolic:

    It's only a matter if time that one or more of these pin startups will be a spectacular failure.

    It appears that matter of time was about 4 months.

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