TOM multiball issue

I figured that might be the case.

This multiball thing is really stumping me. The ball feeder seems to be working fine but there must be some issue with that piece.

#4 8 years ago

BEN

MMP

Inactive member

Bump for the weekend crowd. Still fighting multiball issues.

#5 8 years ago

EHL

lyonsden

When multiball starts with one or two balls, where are the remaining balls? E.g., still in the subway? If they are, I'm thinking that they are getting hung up because of being magnetized, or something odd in the subway/trap door assembly getting in the way.

#6 8 years ago

BEN

MMP

Inactive member

My problem is that the balls typically get kicked out when they should stay locked. Not *all* of the time but most of the time. When multiball starts the remainder of balls are in the trough.

#7 8 years ago

EHL

lyonsden

Ah -- that helps (and rules out magnetized balls). Can you describe what happens when a ball that should be locked get kicks out? E.g., lock is lit, you lock a ball, it rolls down the subway, and then get kicks out (while another ball is loaded into the shooter lane). Or -- ball gets locks appropriately, a ball is loaded into the shooter lane, you plunge and start playing, then the trap door kicks one (or two) balls back at you.

I'm going to guess that there is a problem with the subway switches. Perhaps one that senses the number of locked balls is sticky (whichever for the third/fourth ball) and sensed as closed (ball on it), which causes the game to think there are three/four balls in the subway and then kick them out into play. You may have to take off the subway to check those switches, and if you take the subway off, you should have a few new switches handy to swap in.

#8 8 years ago

BEN

MMP

Inactive member

Balls are all brand new. I've recently pulled apart the subway for cleaning and inspected all the switches. None of them seem to stick, but I'm not too familiar with TOM. Perhaps they need to be adjusted?

Typically early in the game I am prompted to lock a ball, shoot the center loop and ball drops to the subway. Game says "the first ball is locked" and then kicks it out of the basement door. No ball is popped from the trough to the shooter lane, so I continue 1-ball play. Game thinks the first ball is locked but there are none down there. Repeat for 2nd ball lock, then when multiball starts it is with a single ball. Later on in the game I might secret lock a ball and it will remain in the subway. When that happens I get a ball kicked to the shooter lane and then I will have at least 2-ball multiball when the mode is started.

I'm thinking either a subway switch is causing this issue, or maybe something with the ball release post. It's confusing because both seem to be working.

#9 8 years ago

TAD

jints56

Pinside+ Frequent

Warrenton, VA

12y 98,300 1,146 10 46

What kind of balls are they? I had similar issues with silverjets getting magnetized and game acting wonky. Replaced with standard balls and all was good again. Long shot, but just throwing it out there. Good luck

#10 8 years ago

BEN

MMP

Inactive member

I appreciate any feedback that gets me thinking about resolving this issue. I believe balls are shiny PBL.

#11 8 years ago

AAA

pintechev

Inactive member

Look at the switch matrix in switch test. Roll a ball in there and make sure that only one switch changes in the matrix when it rests. Do the same with 2 and 3 balls. Report back.

Marc

#12 8 years ago

BEN

MMP

Inactive member

An excellent idea. Unfortunately each ball closes only 1 of the appropriate switch.

#13 8 years ago

EHL

lyonsden

OP
Quoted from MMP:
An excellent idea. Unfortunately each ball closes only 1 of the appropriate switch.

Just to make sure -- the subway is working as it should? Next on the list (and a stab in the dark), you could replace the ROMs ($10-$20) and see if that fixes the problem. Otherwise, can you describe everything that has happened and the repairs that you have made from when it was working perfectly to now?

#14 8 years ago

EHL

lyonsden

Quoted from lyonsden:
Just to make sure -- the subway is working as it should? No intermittent skipping of sensing the ball? No switch that acts sticky (you repeated the test several times with the exact same results)? Next on the list (and a stab in the dark), you could replace the ROMs ($10-$20) and see if that fixes the problem. Otherwise, can you describe everything that has happened and the repairs that you have made from when it was working perfectly to now?

#15 8 years ago

AAA

pintechev

Inactive member

OK. So, I think this is switch matrix related. Try this.

Put one ball down there and keep it in the subway actuating the switch. And then go through the game and actuate every switch in the game and see if you can see other switches showing up in switch test in the subway.

I had a slam tilt issue in CV due to a miswired switch elsewhere in the game.

#16 8 years ago

EHL

lyonsden

^------ Good idea.

#17 8 years ago

AAA

pintechev

Inactive member

Also, when did this start occurring?
Has this ever worked properly for you?

#18 8 years ago

BEN

MMP

Inactive member

The game was not working as expected to begin with.
Issues were:
- Trunk rotating oddly when it should present the magnet. Resolved with replacement trunk opto board.
- U6 CKSUM error during boot. Minor battery corrosion. Cleaned battery holder with vinegar and replaced batteries, I have not seen this error return.
- Unexpected number of balls during multiball. This is still unresolved.

I checked all the switches while 1 ball was locked in the subway. They all presented themselves normally on the matrix. It seems logical that something might be miswired, especially since the manual may have some wrong information.

#19 8 years ago

AAA

pintechev

Inactive member

Or the battery corrosion is worse than you realize and there is an CPU issue. Got another game to swap CPU (another WPC-S board)?

Marc

#20 8 years ago

AAA

pintechev

Inactive member

And pictures of the CPU board where the corrosion was (and around it) would be very helpful.

#21 8 years ago

MVM

markmon

Inactive member

A stuck on switch in the subway would cause this and I haven't seen anything above indicate that has been ruled out. If the last ball lock switch is stuck on, the game will always think the subway is full and kick out a ball rather than send another to the shooter lane. It would also appear only one switch activates per ball as you drop them in because the stuck on one would not change state.

#22 8 years ago

AAA

pintechev

Inactive member

If the last ball switch was stuck closed, wouldn't it still show in the switch test?

#23 8 years ago

MVM

markmon

Inactive member

Quoted from pintechev:
If the last ball switch was stuck closed, wouldn't it still show in the switch test?

It would show closed in the switch test but you would have to know which switch it was and look for it. Simply seeing a switch change state when you drop a ball into the subway does not rule this out.

#24 8 years ago

BEN

MMP

Inactive member

Here are a few photos. I do appreciate all the input.

zero_balls_in_the_subway.jpg
1_ball_in_the_subway.jpg
2_balls_in_the_subway.jpg
3_balls_in_the_subway.jpg
battery_corrosion_before.jpg
battery_after.jpg
battery_holder_back_side.jpg
underneath_battery_holder.jpg

#25 8 years ago

MVM

markmon

Inactive member

I wouldn't worry about battery corrosion. The wpc-s boards have the batteries off the board on standoffs.

Get your manual out and identify what each of those switches actually are.

The game will shoot out locked balls when it thinks it needs to because balls are not in the drain trough. The possible locations for balls in the game are:
Subway trough, drain trough, and vanish lock. Verify all those switches are all working correctly. As I said, the game only has the switches to tell it the state of things and, it only ejects balls that are locked when it thinks there are balls in play elsewhere not in the drain trough.

#26 8 years ago

BEN

MMP

Inactive member

What you say makes perfect sense. I would not be surprised if this was a ball trough opto issue. The confusing thing is that all switches (trough 1-4, subway 1-3, vanish 1-2) line up on the test switch matrix as the manual states.

I may end up buying a new set of ball trough opto boards. Because this problem does not occur 100% of the time is it possible that the trough 1 opto is just getting flakey?

#27 8 years ago

MVM

markmon

Inactive member

When a ball is in the trough, the opto beam is broken and the switch is active. When the ball comes out of the trough, the beam is open and the switch is not active. If your trough has divots, it's possible that the ball is not in position blocking the beam.

It's unusual for a bad opto to register as a ball out of the trough because that requires the opto set to register on when a ball is blocking the beam. A bad opto is usually the opposite, registers ball still in the trough even when one isn't.

But you can investigate this inside the switch edge test screen.

#28 8 years ago

BEN

MMP

Inactive member

I had previously removed the trough for cleaning in the ultrasonic... and did not notice any glaring divots. I'm definitely going to focus on the ball trough at this point - I no longer think it has anything do to with the subway trough or ball release mechanism because I will occasionally see a ball released prematurely from the vanish lock as well. I'll take another hard look at the ball trough for divots. I've manually tested all the switches in the edge test at least a dozen times now and they have always worked.

#29 8 years ago

EHL

lyonsden

Might want to reflow the solder on the opto boards while you have the trough out. Common place for cold solder joints that can cause intermittent opto problems. However, it doesn't explain why the system thinks there is a ball missing (vs a ball entering the ball trough which would cause an extra ball count).

#30 8 years ago

MVM

markmon

Inactive member

By chance do you only have 3 balls in the game?

#31 8 years ago

AAA

pintechev

Inactive member

Quoted from markmon:
By chance do you only have 3 balls in the game?

Oh man.

#32 8 years ago

BEN

MMP

Inactive member

No such luck. 4 balls in the trough, 1 captive. I likely won't have much time to mess with the ball trough until the weekend and will update the post later.

#33 8 years ago

SJW

winslow

Pinside member

Santa Clarita, CA

11y 38,550 251 12

Replace the 3 micro switches under the trunk in the subway (where balls are stored for multiball). This will fix your issue.

1 month later

#34 8 years ago

BEN

MMP

Inactive member