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(Topic ID: 234515)

TOM instant restarts


By harryhoudini

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 62 posts
  • 7 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Pin_Guy
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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There are 62 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 2.
#1 1 year ago

I just had random restarts on my TAF which likely ended up being a combination of some trace issues on the board and possibly ground issues with the LM323K.

The TOM is different.. it now resets itself almost immediately after starting a game and will continue to do so now (it started off much less) almost every game. I was wondering, while I am going to follow the pinwiki guide, if there was anything that this might indicate more than the other. I'll be testing 5v power this afternoon and BR2, those are two off the top of my head.

#2 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

I just had random restarts on my TAF which likely ended up being a combination of some trace issues on the board and possibly ground issues with the LM323K.
The TOM is different.. it now resets itself almost immediately after starting a game and will continue to do so now (it started off much less) almost every game. I was wondering, while I am going to follow the pinwiki guide, if there was anything that this might indicate more than the other. I'll be testing 5v power this afternoon and BR2, those are two off the top of my head.

How old are the 15000uf caps? If original id replace them.

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from robertmee:

How old are the 15000uf caps? If original id replace them.

Probably original. I was under the impression these were sort of "last resort" with how hard it is to remove them cleanly leaving the through hole.

#4 1 year ago

Any improvement if you reseat J101, J102, J114 on the driver board and the J210 on the MPU?

J101 tends to burn or tarnish the 2 red pins (5volts in from the transformer).

#5 1 year ago

15000uf rarely fail. I would only change if it is puffed up on top. These are very hard to get out without damaging the board.

#6 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

15000uf rarely fail. I would only change if it is puffed up on top. These are very hard to get out without damaging the board.

They're over 20 years old, so I disagree. As for damaging board, fair point...pretty easy to remove with a decent desolder station, though. I just had one fail and short and burned a hole through the board...and it was flat as a board on top.

#7 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Any improvement if you reseat J101, J102, J114 on the driver board and the J210 on the MPU?
J101 tends to burn or tarnish the 2 red pins (5volts in from the transformer).

I'll test that out. The board has been in and out of the game to solve some backbox GI issues. Connector J101 I think (left side, bottom of the board) was burnt up as well as J120 or J121. Replaced those and their headers. So plugs have been in and out but I'll reseat them all.

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from robertmee:

They're over 20 years old, so I disagree. As for damaging board, fair point...pretty easy to remove with a decent desolder station, though. I just had one fail and short and burned a hole through the board...and it was flat as a board on top.

Is there anything but a $300 Hakko that works for this?

#9 1 year ago

amazon.com link »
I use this one. Rebuilt 6 snubber boards in less then a hour. I would suggest using it on a junk board first for practice.

#10 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Is there anything but a $300 Hakko that works for this?

amazon.com link »

It's what I use. I have a friend that works for Analog Devices that builds power supplies and it's all their lab uses.

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

I'll test that out. The board has been in and out of the game to solve some backbox GI issues. Connector J101 I think (left side, bottom of the board) was burnt up as well as J120 or J121. Replaced those and their headers. So plugs have been in and out but I'll reseat them all.

The 4 connectors I mentioned are the only ones to worry about reseating since they are the ones related to the problem.
J101 and J102 on the right side of the driver board
J114 on the left side of the driver board
J210 right side of the driver board

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from robertmee:

They're over 20 years old, so I disagree. As for damaging board, fair point...pretty easy to remove with a decent desolder station, though. I just had one fail and short and burned a hole through the board...and it was flat as a board on top.

I speak from experience now. I used to think that very way about these large capacitors when I first started WPC repair 12 years ago. After replacing these 15000uf capacitors on 3 driver boards, and all 3 of these driver boards eventually caused reset issues during the first year. I found connectors and the 5 volt regulator as the highest causes of resets in WPC games. Since this revelation, I only change ones that are puffed up. Sure there could be some special situation for a failure, but much...much less likely than other smaller electrolytic capacitors that do leak (and damage board) that I am more concerned of telling people to replace.

#14 1 year ago

What most people still fail to realize, when you remove the driver board for any repairs, you are essentially resetting the J101, J102, and J114 connectors, which is why I always ask people to reseat these connectors and ask if it improves. If it does, then the female pins need to be repined and the male board connectors need to be replaced as well. The female pins in the IDC connectors only have a certain lifespan/repeated removal before they start losing tension. Sometimes you can even tell ones are loose when plugging them in.

The feedthroughs that hold these 15000uf capacitors in place are such a tight fit is what makes them pretty tough to get removed. Definitely a certain technique needed to remove them.

#15 1 year ago

During the last few years, replacement 5v regulators (LM323k) being sold these days through various sources are cheap China counterfeits that, even new, sometimes fail to boot up a WPC game, muchless be able to run a game for a few hours.

Here is a good alternative that you can adjust to 5.2volts and essentially remove resets in your WPC game, assuming you do not have any connector issues with J101, J114 or J210.

https://www.ezsbc.com/index.php/products/psu7.html#.XEjzaOTsZ0F

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

I speak from experience now. I used to think that very way about these large capacitors when I first started WPC repair 12 years ago. After replacing these 15000uf capacitors on 3 driver boards, and all 3 of these driver boards eventually caused reset issues during the first year. I found connectors and the 5 volt regulator as the highest causes of resets in WPC games. Since this revelation, I only change ones that are puffed up. Sure there could be some special situation for a failure, but much...much less likely than other smaller electrolytic capacitors that do leak (and damage board) that I am more concerned of telling people to replace.

I understand what you're saying...I guess it's a matter of experience with board work. The capacitors have a mean failure rate and lifetime expectancy. Most boards are way beyond those expectations. When I have a board that's resettingx I typically replace the connectors, caps and 5v regulator. The number of times you spend putting a board in and out of a machine tring to chase down reset issues leads to breaking other things. I speak also from 20 years experience doing this. I don't know that I find removing caps any more difficult than removing the lk323 or header pins...it's all through hole desoldering.

But I do agree, that for someone not experienced or having the right tools, best be conservative in the approach, and eliminate the simple first.

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

During the last few years, replacement 5v regulators (LM323k) being sold these days through various sources are cheap China counterfeits that, even new, sometimes fail to boot up a WPC game, muchless be able to run a game for a few hours.
Here is a good alternative that you can adjust to 5.2volts and essentially remove resets in your WPC game, assuming you do not have any connector issues with J101, J114 or J210.
https://www.ezsbc.com/index.php/products/psu7.html#.XEjzaOTsZ0F

I just ordered one of these....two weeks and still haven't received...just fyi, their order processing isn't the greatest and they don't answer their phone...although to their credit they state on their website they probably won't answer.

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from robertmee:

How old are the 15000uf caps? If original id replace them.

I wouldn't replace any of them that aren't problematic...and I'm a expert level board repair tech. These capacitors are very difficult to replace and without the proper board repair skills AND the right equipment, the results of this attempted repair often result in more NEW problems than are actually resolved.

#19 1 year ago
Quoted from robertmee:

They're over 20 years old, so I disagree. As for damaging board, fair point...pretty easy to remove with a decent desolder station, though. I just had one fail and short and burned a hole through the board...and it was flat as a board on top.

This should never happen, unless the fuse powering the bridge rectifier is substantially over fused, it would blow immediately upon this type failure.

#20 1 year ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

This should never happen, unless the fuse powering the bridge rectifier is substantially over fused, it would blow immediately upon this type failure.

Wasn't a cap on the PDB...was a 12v filter cap on a Data East Sound board...no fuse protection.. My point wasn't to expect a hole in the board...My point was that the cap failed with no buldge.

#21 1 year ago
Quoted from robertmee:

The capacitors have a mean failure rate and lifetime expectancy.

Don't take this number at face value, this number represents an average life expectancy of the part in a powered on state at a specific temperature before it has any degradation. Unless you owned the game from new and installed a run hour meter, the machines actual power on hours cannot be determined with any degree of accuracy.

#22 1 year ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Wasn't a cap on the PDB...was a 12v filter cap on a Data East Sound board...no fuse protection.. My point wasn't to expect a hole in the board...My point was that the cap failed with no buldge.

Well, then not related to this WPC topic at hand. Common problem on WPC games are different than common problems seen on DE games.

#23 1 year ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

I wouldn't replace any of them that aren't problematic...and I'm a expert level board repair tech. These capacitors are very difficult to replace and without the proper board repair skills AND the right equipment, the results of this attempted repair often result in more NEW problems than are actually resolved.

5v dips are problematic. How exactly are you going to determine that a cap itself is problematic? Certainly you recognize that caps fail all the time due to age and have no tell tale buldge.

#24 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

Well, then not related to this WPC topic at hand. Common problem on WPC games are different than common problems seen on DE games.

Cmon....caps are caps...did you not read the point?

#25 1 year ago
Quoted from robertmee:

I speak also from 20 years experience doing this. I don't know that I find removing caps any more difficult than removing the lk323 or header pins...it's all through hole desoldering.

This statement tells me you have never removed a "snap cap" from a double sided board. I have 30+ years in board repair and can tell you for a fact they are not the same...even with commercial grade equipment.

#26 1 year ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

Don't take this number at face value, this number represents an average life expectancy of the part in a powered on state before it has any at specific temperature before it has any degradation. Unless you owned the game from new and installed a run hour meter, the machines actual power on hours cannot be determined with any degree of accuracy.

Fair point.

#27 1 year ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Cmon....caps are caps...did you not read the point?

I have replaced (2) 15000uf caps in the last 8 years on WPC PDB.

DE common faults are for another thread.

#28 1 year ago
Quoted from robertmee:

5v dips are problematic. How exactly are you going to determine that a cap itself is problematic? Certainly you recognize that caps fail all the time due to age and have no tell tale buldge.

You determine this with an RMS voltmeter or an Oscilloscope to measure the amount of AC ripple on the DC voltage.

#29 1 year ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

This statement tells me you have never removed a "snap cap" from a double sided board. I have 30+ years in board repair and can tell you for a fact they are not the same...even with commercial grade equipment.

I've removed many....just removed all 5 from a BSD. Don't know why this is turned into a pissing match. I remember now why I quit posting on Pinside before. I'll bow out and leave you guys to direct the OP. Apologies for the way this thread turned.

#30 1 year ago
Quoted from robertmee:

I've removed many....just removed all 5 from a BSD. Don't know why this is turned into a pissing match. I remember now why I quit posting on Pinside before. I'll bow out and leave you guys to direct the OP. Apologies for the way this thread turned.

Sorry...I'm just reading this post for the first time and replying to posts in order...not trying to make this a pissing match; however your first advice to replace these capacitors to someone of unknown skill without doing any of the proper diagnostic checks will almost assurance have disastrous results...unless you work for Rottendog

In my opinion, unless you measure greater than 5% AC ripple on your DC voltage (250mV@5VDC) you should not replace the capacitor.

What does your AC ripple measure?

#31 1 year ago

I speak from experience too I just replaced C5 and the LM323K on my TAF board. Luckily I was borrowing a Hakko desoldering gun and had an experienced board tech with me to help. The cap was *hairy* to replace. Sadly, don't have those tools now so looking at getting my own and considering what to replace. Going to reseat those connectors with my fingers crossed.

#32 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Going to reseat those connectors with my fingers crossed.

This may just be a temporary fix to point that direction of connectors needing to be replaced.

Where did you buy the LM323k from?

#33 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Going to reseat those connectors with my fingers crossed.

Good luck, if the problem goes away after reseating then you know where the issues lies. Many folks don't realize this, but the life expectancy of these headers and connectors is 50 mechanical actions before the plating begins to break down...removing and replacing a board is 2 actions as both the removal and installation are separate mechanical actions.

#34 1 year ago

Long story, but I ended up getting the PSU5 and finding out that it wasn't the issue (so swapped back in the LM323K). Had some trace issues on the board that was preventing the LM323K from grounding.. among other issues.

#35 1 year ago

Reseated and same issue. J101 has some brown burn on the 9v side so it looks like that is due for replacement. I already replaced J114. The board was TOAST there and had to put in a stitch and replace the header. Been working fine for a while like that, so I think that repair is fine.

I have the PSU5 still but no caps. Should I look at replacing the LM323K?

#37 1 year ago

It's so hard to tell with all of the low quality stuff that comes out of China. I primarily stick with commercial grade equipment from Pace (made in USA), with the full expectation that I will never have to replace it.

#38 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

Reseated and same issue. J101 has some brown burn on the 9v side so it looks like that is due for replacement. I already replaced J114. The board was TOAST there and had to put in a stitch and replace the header. Been working fine for a while like that, so I think that repair is fine.
I have the PSU5 still but no caps. Should I look at replacing the LM323K?

J101 is definitely an issue. J114 is only a 5 or 6 pin connector and I have not seen a toasted one, only loose pins in the female connector. I think you might mean J115 was toast as that is the GI connector and it is common for it to heat up with incandescent bulbs.

I think I would see how the connectors help out before thinking about changing the LM323k. Can you measure the 5v on the MPU board? I don't think I would change it unless it is less than 4.9v.

#39 1 year ago

Thanks, haven't measured voltage yet. I will check 5v and am placing an order from great plains for some more connectors.

#40 1 year ago

Holy cow. We're having a discussion without immediate suggestion of putting reset daughterboards in!!!!!! There's hope!!

Best way to put it about a Hakko: You know what you're getting, and I have have never ever regretted any purchase I have made with the Hakko name.

$260 and it's said and done: amazon.com link »

I prefer one with a digital temperature control. Unfortunately, the price of admission is definitely a bit steep:

amazon.com link »

Keeping the temperature low is very important to minimize the pulling up of traces....

#41 1 year ago

$260 + ... other tip... drill bit... stand..

That's the one I've used... it's realllllly nice.

#42 1 year ago

So all of the test points on the driver board are good except the 5v (surprise), reading 4.86 which I am going to guess is really darn close to whatever limit the system needs. I also noticed C5 was domed a bit, so based on what I've heard the LM323K doesn't really go bad much, suspect the C5 first?

#43 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

So all of the test points on the driver board are good except the 5v (surprise), reading 4.86 which I am going to guess is really darn close to whatever limit the system needs.

I expect this since you still have the damaged J101 pins/red wires coming in from the transformer.

Yes, it is too low.

#44 1 year ago
Quoted from PinballManiac40:

I expect this since you still have the damaged J101 pins/red wires coming in from the transformer.
Yes, it is too low.

I'd say the damage is minimal... really more the yellow/brown on the outside/end of the connector itself but the pins look fine. But I'll replace it first since it sounds like it needs to be replaced either way.

#45 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

I'd say the damage is minimal... really more the yellow/brown on the outside/end of the connector itself but the pins look fine. But I'll replace it first since it sounds like it needs to be replaced either way.

As well as the board connector. Sometimes when I see this, the wire wiggles around in the IDC connection. Push on the red wires a bit about half inch away from the IDC to see if you can see it wiggle at the pins. If so, temporarily press the wire back in place to see if by chance it improves the voltage.

There is a good indicator that the PSU5 would do a lot of good for this board. Even with new connectors, It may only bring the voltage to 4.94v or so. 5.1 to 5.2v would be ideal.

#46 1 year ago

I normally change all the infrared transmitter optos in a game as they do burn out and will cause gameplay issues, such as having multiball when you shouldn't. Based on the age of the game, some may have been already changed over the years.
https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=QED123

Also. I think you want to replace the C2 (100uf 50v radial electrolytic cap) on the power driver board as it likes to leak and damage the board under it. Picture and notes taken from section 6.17 of http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC

2019-01-24 07_39_29-Williams WPC - PinWiki - Internet Explorer (resized).png

Same with the C1 (100uf 50v radial) on the 7-switch opto board and C3 (100uf 50v radial) on the motor driver board. 2019-01-24 06_50_38-https___www.ipdb.org_files_2845_Bally_1995_Theatre_of_Magic_Manual.pdf - Interne (resized).png2019-01-24 06_49_54-https___www.ipdb.org_files_2845_Bally_1995_Theatre_of_Magic_Manual.pdf - Interne (resized).png

#47 1 year ago

Loving the discussion in this thread! I've hoped for a long time that the mantra of "replace the bridges and caps" would end, and it looks like that's actually happening.

Also, the ridiculous reset daughter board not coming up as an immediate suggestion is awesome.

--
Rob Anthony
Pinball Classics
http://LockWhenLit.com
Quality Board Work - In Home Service
borygard at gmail dot com

#48 1 year ago

Thanks pinballmaniac40 going to get my order placed at Great Plains

#49 1 year ago
Quoted from NPO:

Holy cow. We're having a discussion without immediate suggestion of putting reset daughterboards in!!!!!!

That's because these don't fix the problem, they hide it.

#50 1 year ago
Quoted from harryhoudini:

I also noticed C5 was domed a bit

Yeah I think you nailed it; I don't know what meter you are using but it's likely giving you an average DC voltage which likely has a lot of AC ripple causing voltages to drop much lower than the 4.86 you are measuring.

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