(Topic ID: 149806)

ToM: GND short row 1

By focumateriet

8 years ago


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J113-5_indirect_cnct2GND_(resized).jpg
test_setup1_(resized).jpg
#1 8 years ago

Hello!

We've been having this problem for quite a while. Whenever we start our ToM we get the error message "GND SHORT ROW 1". This issue started after a guy brute forced the coin door with a crowbar. We've been trying to fix this issue for a long time, but nothing has worked. We did however get the tip to try switching the power board with our Road Show, since these two games have the same power board. When this was done, the game worked flawlessly. We really have no idea what the issue with the power board could be. We've checked all the transistors for row 1, and we have also checked the capacitors and the rectifiers, but they seem to work.

Does anyone have any ideas of what the problem could be? We've been considering buying a new power board, but it would obviously be more nice to be able to fix the problems ourselfs.

#2 8 years ago

There is only a single trace connected to Row1 on the PowerBoard but I can't figure out how it would cause a short to GND.
It was used on older pre-fliptronic WPC games for lane change.
Is there a short between U8 pin 5 (r1) and Ground ?
picture can be found here:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/t2-flipper-works-but-not-flipper-switch#post-2001669

#3 8 years ago

A ground short has nothing to do with the power/driver bird at all. Ground shorts are detected solely on the MPU with the driver board having no impact at all.

The switch matrix is entirely local to the MPU.

Make sense?
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#4 8 years ago

ehm, now you made me doubt so I had to convince myself on the test rig.

test_setup1_(resized).jpgtest_setup1_(resized).jpg

#5 8 years ago

Oh. I see. That's a -1 driver board, that senses the flipper switches for the purpose of lane change and HSTD initial entry. Yes, I can see how that might happen. Good catch. It is an odd failure.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/contact/
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#6 8 years ago

If.... J113-5 is bent to J113-6, then there is still no connection between Row1 and GND on the PowerDriverBoard.
But when the ribboncable is connected on J211 - J113, it will create a path to GND via J211-6
It doesn't necessary need to be a '-1 board', this can happen on all types.

Quoted from ChrisHibler:

It is an odd failure.

Once in a lifetime can happen today : )

J113-5_indirect_cnct2GND_(resized).jpgJ113-5_indirect_cnct2GND_(resized).jpg

#7 8 years ago

Thank you for your answer! We will try to check it out this week!

#8 8 years ago

Allright, so we just checked the connection between U8 pin 5 (r1) and Ground, and there was no short. Any ideas of anything else that could be the issue?

#9 8 years ago

If you are sure that the PowerDriverBoard is the cause of this 'gnd-short-row1' , can you go to TEST T1 (switch edges) but with the ribbon-cable between J211 and J113 disconnected. Disconnect only from the CPU-board will do.

Is there still a GND-short-Row1 in the switch matrix ? If not, does the short come back when the ribboncable is back in place ?

#10 8 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Good catch. It is an odd failure.

I helped a guy with this problem on TAF and it took forever to find the issue was on the PDB (the opto was shorted if I remember correctly).

#11 8 years ago

It sounds like your U20 chip is blown. I believe the U20 is socketed on TOM, but could be wrong. If so it'll be easy to switch out.

#12 8 years ago
Quoted from 22troy:

It sounds like your U20 chip is blown. I believe the U20 is socketed on TOM, but could be wrong. If so it'll be easy to switch out.

The OP has already verified the CPU is good.

OP, I know you suspect the problem is on the PDB, but since this started with someone crow-barring the coin door I would remove J212 and see if that helps. The fact you did not find a short with zaza's test would also indicate that possibly the PDB is not the issue.

#13 8 years ago

A ground-short can also be caused by an opto board. When a comparator is defective in such a way, that an output always conducts, ground potential is permanently given on the row-line. Before searching for a mechanical ground-short, you should disconnect all connection cables from the opto board, that are leading to the CPU board. This way, it can be determined in a simple way, if the cause is to be sought on an Opto Board and also on what opto board.

#14 8 years ago

Thanks again for all your help guys, you are awesome

We will check out the things mentioned this afternoon. I'll let you know how it goes!

#15 8 years ago

Yes, it is easier to create a gnd-short with a crowbar to the coindoor-slamtilt or ball-trough-jam than the suggested PowerDrive short on J113-5, but that would be a 'too easy' fix

1 month later
#17 8 years ago

Hello everyone! Unfortunately we have not had the time to check these things in the last couple of days, but we are looking into it now! I will let you know how it goes.

#18 8 years ago

Alright, so now we have checked the following things:

We have disconnected the ribbon cable between J211 and J113 and the "Ground Short Row 1" error is still showing on the screen. We also tried disconnecting J116 as well as J207 which gave the error "Check fuses F114 and F115". I have no idea if this is supposed to happen, so some feedback on that would be great. We also tried disconnecting the opto boards from the PDB as well as the CPU, which didn't do any difference. We also disconnected J212 but the error persisted.

We are starting to feel a bit hopeless. Should we just try to get some money and by a new PDB? What do you guys think?

EDIT: Also, I realized that I never wrote that the message said "GND SHORT ROW 1 IS STUCK CLOSED". I do not know if the is stuck closed part might give some other hints on the issue.

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