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(Topic ID: 128120)

TMS5220 as a replacement for TMS5200 in a Bally Squawk and Talk


By barakandl

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 20 posts
  • 11 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 months ago by slochar
  • Topic is favorited by 3 Pinsiders

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    #1 5 years ago

    Need to find an option for all the TMS5200 chips on squawk and talk boards with disintegrating IC legs.

    Has anyone tried to use one of these TMS5220 as a replacement. Looks like it MIGHT work when comparing data sheets. I found an old post that says if you use a TMS5220 the speech is very slow. Looks like you may be able to change a resistor value to speed the speech up. Has anyone dug into this before i do?

    TMS5220 looks to be more available than the TMS5200.

    Andrew

    #2 5 years ago

    I believe they are pin compatible but not function compatible. I am not sure the differences to know if minor changes to the circuit could be made to use the 5220. It would be nice, I have almost a whole case (859pcs) of nos tms5220 on hand. I got a bunch of quotes on tms5200 a couple weeks ago. Cheapest one was $17 per and that is buying in qty 100+.

    #3 5 years ago

    Most of the Wikipedia entry for the TI LPC processors was ripped from the book "VoiceXML: High-impact Strategies - What You Need to Know: Definitions, Adoptions, Impact, Benefits, Maturity, Vendors" by Kevin Roebuck. This passage from that book:

    "The TMS5200 appears to be identical to the TMS5220 in operation, but its voice output sounds rather different and more distorted. According to private correspondence with Larry Brantingham (one of the designers of the TMS5200), the TMS5220 is an improved version of the TMS5200 with a new chirp table, a new table of LPC coefficients, and a new statistical modeling feature on the encoder software used at TI."

    From Brantingham himself:

    "The TMS5200 was the Consumer group's TMC0285 - the only difference was the name. The more common S/C part was the TMS5220 and it had a slightly different coding table than the original (TMS5200). The bit allocations were the same and you can swap data, but it sounds a bit odd."

    Brantingham left TI in 1980 and went on to Quadravox where they made a product that would allow voice encoding for the TI LPC chips. But he goes on to say that the original encoding table for the 5200 is lost. So it is virtually impossible to encode any new speech for the 5200 today.

    I don't think "overclocking" the 5220 would work because of other timing issues on the S&T board but I could be wrong.

    The most achievable method to me would be to re-encode the speech for the 5220 and burn new ROMs with this data. Then a repair can be performed simply by swapping ROMs and the speech chip.

    viperrwk

    #4 5 years ago

    Wonder what it would sound like if you put one in a S&T as is? Like a speak and spell?

    #5 5 years ago

    Riptor, I am interested in playing with a TMS5220. I am going to send you a PM.

    I scored some TMS5200 from arcade chips maybe a year ago for like $5 each... should have gotten more, looks like he is sold of them now.

    I have a few Squawk and Talks to repair and i can tell i will need to replace at least one TM5200 because the legs are so corroded some have fallen off... Whatever kind of metal they used to make these speech chips is really crappy, they disintegrate way before all the other ICs do.

    Andrew

    #6 5 years ago
    Quoted from viperrwk:

    Most of the Wikipedia entry for the TI LPC processors was ripped from the book "VoiceXML: High-impact Strategies - What You Need to Know: Definitions, Adoptions, Impact, Benefits, Maturity, Vendors" by Kevin Roebuck. This passage from that book:

    From Brantingham himself:

    Brantingham left TI in 1980 and went on to Quadravox where they made a product that would allow voice encoding for the TI LPC chips. But he goes on to say that the original encoding table for the 5200 is lost. So it is virtually impossible to encode any new speech for the 5200 today.
    I don't think "overclocking" the 5220 would work because of other timing issues on the S&T board but I could be wrong.
    The most achievable method to me would be to re-encode the speech for the 5220 and burn new ROMs with this data. Then a repair can be performed simply by swapping ROMs and the speech chip.
    » YouTube video
    viperrwk

    I am going to play with the "OSC" pin 6. There is some caps and resistors there for timing. Might be able to speed it up with out things going crazy... that is my idea anyways.

    #7 5 years ago

    Yeah, its something I thought about playing around with one day.
    You can order these off my website. Not sure on the rules here so I wont post a link.

    TI chips that have the black brittle legs are from early 70's, early 80's vintage. They were silver plating the legs which they quickly stopped doing once they realized what was happening. It was either from the chemicals used or "hydrogen embrittlement" which can happen during the plating process. Silver plating uses some harsh chemicals. The TMS5220 I have are all nice bright tin legs, still in their original tubes...in their original carton.

    #8 5 years ago
    Quoted from Riptor:

    Yeah, its something I thought about playing around with one day.
    You can order these off my website. Not sure on the rules here so I wont post a link.
    TI chips that have the black brittle legs are from early 70's, early 80's vintage. They were silver plating the legs which they quickly stopped doing once they realized what was happening. It was either from the chemicals used or "hydrogen embrittlement" which can happen during the plating process. Silver plating uses some harsh chemicals. The TMS5220 I have are all nice bright tin legs, still in their original tubes...in their original carton.

    Fairchild in the late 70s(i think at least, the say F68XX) suffer from the save silver plating corrosion as well.

    What is your website? Are you arcade chips?

    #9 5 years ago

    http://www.twistywristarcade.com/sound-amps/591-tms5220.html

    So I popped one in my Mr.&Ms. Pacman and the speech still worked but was garbled and muffled a bit. It was not bad enough that you could not understand what its saying.

    #10 5 years ago

    They're showing in stock (really or not?) $15 ea. at Marco's

    http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/TMS5200

    5 years later
    #11 3 months ago

    Old post, but new info regarding TMS5200 vs TMS5220.
    Just a back-to-back video I made to show the difference.

    Enjoy.
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    1 week later
    #12 3 months ago

    ...and to further muddy the waters - based upon my recent testing (rebuilding some old S&T's that were stripped for parts), it appears there can be significant variations in speaking speed between TMS5200's as well.

    I have a CD2501E (TMS5200 equivalent - just the internal TI part number) that speaks more quickly than normal - coherent, just faster.
    I also have two TMS5200's I just recently received from ArcadeShop. One of these has what I'd consider the typical/normal speed (it matches up speed-wise with the original TMS5200 for this board), but the other feels significantly slower.

    As it happens, my test S&T board is configured for Flash Gordon as well, so I figured I'd make a few videos for comparison.

    Note that the speed follows the chip - no matter how many times I tested it, the speaking speed was consistent.

    This might explain why I've played some pins with a S&T and thought the speech didn't sound quite right - curious if others have noticed this as well?

    YouTube playlist with all three videos: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLdnHnpSIQSFjmsPGYCkOR7PlOvAy6udpy

    Individual:

    "Slow" Flash:

    "Normal" Flash:

    "Speedy" Flash:

    If you simply can't find a TMS5200, the 5220 would be better than nothing, even with the distorted bits I suppose.

    #13 3 months ago

    sprout , I wonder if the audio is really faster/slower or if the difference is really just a change in pitch?
    The pitch can be adjusted by varying R9, as noted here:
    https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Pitch_of_Speech_is_too_high.2Flow

    What do you think?
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    #14 3 months ago

    chrishibler

    Perhaps? Speeding up or slowing down audio would certainly change the pitch, but it still begs the question of why I'd see differences between these three different 5200's on the same board, with the same resistor configuration.

    Regardless, that's a good call out! I'll dig around for a ~250k trimpot and play around with that. Would be a nice mod to further customize the speech for a given game (I think the lower pitch Centaur voice sounds pretty cool, and would consider modding mine accordingly). If nothing else, tweaking a pot to normalize the pitch of a given chip with slightly lower/higher pitch/speed is a good option to be aware of.

    Regards,

    Brent

    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    sprout , I wonder if the audio is really faster/slower or if the difference is really just a change in pitch?
    The pitch can be adjusted by varying R9, as noted here:
    https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Bally/Stern#Pitch_of_Speech_is_too_high.2Flow
    What do you think?
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    #15 3 months ago
    Quoted from Sprout:

    but it still begs the question of why I'd see differences between these three different 5200's on the same board, with the same resistor configuration.

    barakandl noted some time ago that a tube of NOS TMS5200 chips with the same date code each produced different pitch in speech. So what you're seeing probably isn't unusual.

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/flash-gordon-wrong-speech#post-5351112

    #16 3 months ago

    What about this?

    Dp48cP1UUAAYB8F (resized).jpg

    https://twitter.com/txsector/status/1053345825793880065

    #17 3 months ago
    Quoted from solarvalue:

    What about this?

    That mod doesn't produce speech.
    All it does is fake a missing speech chip so it passes the powerup test allowing the board to continue to play other game sound effects.

    #18 3 months ago

    Ah, ok, thanks.

    #19 3 months ago
    Quoted from ChrisHibler:

    Old post, but new info regarding TMS5200 vs TMS5220.
    Just a back-to-back video I made to show the difference.
    Enjoy.
    --
    Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
    http://www.ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
    http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

    Good video Chris

    #20 3 months ago
    Quoted from Sprout:

    Speeding up or slowing down audio would certainly change the pitch, but it still begs the question of why I'd see differences between these three different 5200's on the same board, with the same resistor configuration.

    Anytime analog circuitry is involved it's not going to be 'exact'. I had the same issue when I had 2 EBD's one the S&T's sounded "normal" and the other was "slower" to my memory of the game. I kept the normal one.

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