(Topic ID: 38957)

Tips on getting Quick Draw running (Couple o' pics now)

By ReallifePin

11 years ago


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There are 106 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
#1 11 years ago

When I picked it up it powered on and the stepper in the right rear kept trying to cycle. Once I got it home it wouldn't do anything but light up. Here are the first of likely hundreds of questions:
My DMM doesn't have a tone to test fuses so I've been testing fuses with the diode mode reading 0. I have a couple of slow blow fuses that seem to have 2 wires after the black "diode" inside. If one of the wires is burnt is the fuse blown?
I'm just wondering if this gear is a missing tooth. It sure looks like it to the untrained eye but I just don't see how it would break. It is the same stepper that was firing continuously and I've got a fuse on the PF that is blown. I'll clean off the stepper and replace the fuse and hopefully be able to get a little farther down the chain. Reasonable?
I've read and reread the pinrepair.com EM page but since fuses are the first bit I want to get them worked out before going farther. Any of you have an advice that you wish you knew when you started working on your first EM?

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#2 11 years ago

That gear is correct. They make them that way so it cannot advance or decrement beyond a certain point.

The fuse blowing is a separate problem. Check for a broken wire somewhere. Use lots of light and a magnifying glass if you have to.

Whenever I buy a new machine I do a complete Shopout so I can clean/adjust/lube and go through everything and that helps with spotting issues with the machine. I always figure at least 100 hours into a machine.

Ken

#3 11 years ago

Guess I just hoped it being stuck open blew the fuse. Where I'm just starting out I thought I'd keep it simple when possible. What I'm thinking now is to get all of the right fuses and start down the list on pinrepair.com including getting all the gunk off of the gears. I've gone over the playfield switches once and didn't see any broken wires but I'll take a closer look when I start cleaning everything up. Thanks for the help!

#4 11 years ago

Clean all steppers. Completely disassemble, lube, and reassemble. Take pics first.

Warning: the shoulder screw in the top left of the 2nd picture has a backing nut, and the screw probably has loctite on it. Remove the backing nut then let some penetrating oil sit on that joint for a couple hours before removing the screw.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://www.Team-EM.com
http://webpages.charter.net/chibler/Pinball/index.htm
http://www.PinWiki.com - The new place for pinball repair info

#5 11 years ago

Thanks. I appreciate the help.

#6 11 years ago

A couple more questions:
I don't see anywhere that tells me what amp the playfield fuses are. Would you feel okay just replacing what is in there currently? They are all low amp slow blow.

My coin door looks like a turd so I may be missing something but is there a start button for this machine? Thanks for humoring me.

#7 11 years ago

Go to IPDB.com (internet Pinball database)

Go to "quick search" and type in Quick Draw. They have a picture of your Coin Door with the Red Start Button in the middle.

Ken

#8 11 years ago

I saw that but wasn't sure that's what it was. Thanks for confirming it.

#9 11 years ago

Most of the fuses on the bottom board (right in front of score motor) should be either 7,10 or 15 Amp regular fast blow. Slow blow are used on the main circuit (5amp) and reset drop targets (not sure on that game, could be 1/2 or 1 amp. Someone with the game can confirm. (I used to have one a couple years ago).

#10 11 years ago

Cleaned out the cabinet of my other game and found the schematic for QD. You pretty much nailed it from memory stashy.

Through all of this, I've had one concern in the back of my head and I thought I'd just ask so I can rest easier. I have power to all of the lights but nothing else does anything. I have no problem going through it with a fine tooth comb and getting it cleaned and adjusted (as much as I feel confident in).
Are EMs likely to have a machine ruining problem that makes all of that work go down the drain? The idea I got was that there could be any number of problems but once found were relatively easy to fix. Is that naive?

#11 11 years ago
Quoted from ReallifePin:

Are EMs likely to have a machine ruining problem that makes all of that work go down the drain?

Sure.

After you are all done shopping out your machine go ahead a spray a can of electrical contact spray on all your contacts "to protect them", then turn on your machine and watch it blow up.

Ken

#12 11 years ago
Quoted from EM-PINMAN:

Sure.
After you are all done shopping out your machine go ahead a spray a can of electrical contact spray on all your contacts "to protect them", then turn on your machine and watch it blow up.
Ken

Short of that?

#13 11 years ago

This happened to me, twice. Memo: Must pay attention to wing nuts.

When your repairing hanging Relay Banks from under the Playfield make sure you don't close the Playfield while the Bank is hanging down and did not secure the wing nuts holding it after adjusting the Leaf switches as it can get caught on a Relay Bank in the Cabinet and when you lift the Playfield the Leafs can get tangled up between the two Banks and you end up bending the heck out of a bunch of the switches you had just worked on.

Ken

#14 11 years ago

Real life-
I think if you don't have a brain fart (no offense Ken, I've done my share too!) You can rest assured EMs will reward you with correct game play eventually. That's the beauty of the simplicity of the technology. One just has to chase down all issues that can throw it out of whack. I used to get frustrated with a game when it didn't fire right up after many hours of restoration. Now I relish the challenge and eventual victory!!

#15 11 years ago
Quoted from stashyboy:

Real life-
I think if you don't have a brain fart (no offense Ken, I've done my share too!) You can rest assured EMs will reward you with correct game play eventually. That's the beauty of the simplicity of the technology. One just has to chase down all issues that can throw it out of whack. I used to get frustrated with a game when it didn't fire right up after many hours of restoration. Now I relish the challenge and eventual victory!!

That's exactly what I was hoping to hear. I was very antsy when I first got it home but I've adopted a more patient view and I'm looking forward to going through it and getting it to play right. If I get too excited to play a game they have a QD at the Pinball HOF. I can get my fix there.

#16 11 years ago

Those flip up relay banks can be a pain. Just make sure no wires or the backs of the switches are touching each other, or the assembly itself. Chafed wires cause hard to find problems. Just restored a Fast Draw, had a few weird issues, found chafed wires in the bundle in the very back left side of the pf. GTB mounted the bundle too close to the edge of the PF. Every time the pf was raised and lowered it stripped the wires a little more.

#17 11 years ago

I finally had a chance to look at a couple things. Here's where I am so far:

On power on, the start motor runs constantly (any life at all was welcome).

If I trip the coin switch it sounds like the reels try to reset then stop.

I can see the game over relay resetting over and over which is tripping the backboard game over lamp.

No tilt lamp lit.

If I then hit the start button all that I notice is that the credit wheel tries (unsuccessfully) to move.

The pictures are of the Ax relay and it does not move when manually released at all. The switch screws were about a full turn loose but have been tightened.

This the first time I've had anything but lamps so I'm on cloud 9 but if someone would like to point me in a direction to go from here, I'm all ears. It seems that there are a few threads that start at a machine in this stage so I'll read those in the mean time.

Is this level of excitement over every little accomplishment normal? This could be dangerous.

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#18 11 years ago

Those switch blades look suspicious to me. Not sure if they are in the correct slots. The blades should generally be pretty straight, not bent so much. They should also be adjusted for no more than a 1/16th inch space, some even tighter. Perhaps someone with that game can compare yours to theirs. Clay's repair site constantly shows where someone got in there and man-handled the switch blades throwing them out of wack. No need to edit your enthusiasm, every little victory means you've learned something that will serve you in future diagnosis.

#19 11 years ago

They don't look right to me either. Really bent and it looks like one set is all the way right while another is heading left? Suspicious anyway.

Post edited by ne1

#20 11 years ago
Quoted from ne1:

They don't look right to me either. Really bent and it looks like one set is all the way right while another is heading left? Suspicious anyway.
Post edited by ne1

Probably leading to no spring either way. I was wondering, could I adjust it the same way as in pinrepair.coms Ax relay video as far as which slots the blades are in? Or are they not that universal?

The good news is that the rest of the relays look pretty well kept. This one stood out immediately. I have an alignment tool coming next week so I may just have to clean some reels until then.

#21 11 years ago

Each game could have different switch blade combinations. Sometimes you can see wear, or dirt in the correct slot, if in fact some are misplaced.

#22 11 years ago

It may be easier to see if they line up, if they weren't so bent. There is a pretty good video on youtube of AX relay adjustment.

#23 11 years ago

I got all the blades in the right slots (fingers crossed) but no adjuster to dial it in. I'm going to get the score reels cleaned up next so I can keep up some forward momentum.

#24 11 years ago

Its possible for the bakelite insulators to be the wrong amount in certain places for some of the leafs?
May have to experiment a little.
The leafs look to be in the right position but the amount of insulators between the leafs look to me like their wrong bending the leafs beyond the proper position.

Quoted from ReallifePin:I have an alignment tool coming next week

Small needle nose pliers should work.^^

#25 11 years ago

Here's how the ax relay turned out. Didn't adjust any that looked open when they should be and vice versa.

On power with all reels at zero
Score motor runs
Game over relay pulls in
1st ball relay pulls in
Tilt hold relay pulls in

With credits:
Start button advances credit wheel

It looks like there are any number of things that can keep the score motor running. Have noticed one switch on a score reel that is missing a contact. Other than that there is a weird blade that looked broken but all reels switches look like this. (Last picture)

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#26 11 years ago

Those end of stroke switches on the score reels should not give you a big problem. Steve from PBR told me I was crazy to even worry about replacing them one time.......!

#27 11 years ago

Going to try trouble shooting a couple things on the score motor:

Motor 1 C: As discussed above, this is the normal at rest position for the score motor. It functions as the motor override switch, and always operates the motor until 1C opens. This switch insures that the motor always stops at the same relative place, regardless when an external switch opens that triggered it. Additionally, motor 1C opens the replay button, keeping the player from energizing the start circuit until the motor is back to normal. Motor 1C cuts off power to the playfield switches while the motor is “off normal”, to keep scoring from the playfield from interfering with scoring coming through the motor. I may also control lights associated with scoring conditions active only when the motor is off normal.

This switch will often show a blue spark, especially noticeable in a darkened cabinet, that is a normal consequence of the motor’s EM field collapse when it turns off. Although normal, it causes pits and shortens the life of the contacts of 1C, which may need to be cleaned with a flexstone file or sandpaper, and its gap re-adjusted (if necessary), for reliable operation. This switch is the first thing that should be investigated when a score motor will not stop running.

My score motor runs continually from the second I turn on power. It doesn't seem to be binding and I need to look for the brake blade again. I didn't see a wireless switch last time I looked for it. Should I be able to manually position the motor at 1C and maybe keep it from starting?

#28 11 years ago

Can someone tell me if the Ax relay should be activating during start up?

Keep in mind that score motor is always running but my start up sequence goes like this:

Pressing replay button actuates S relay (check!)
This relay will lock in through its own switch and a motor 2B switch (doesn't lock in, switches at 2B appear to be adjusted right and all wires have good connections and no visible shorts)
S relay starts the motor running (well it's already running so who knows if it's doing its job here)
Ax relay actuates through switches on U and S relays and a switch on motor 2C. Q and U relays deenergize when Ax relay operates. (U and S relays energize momentarily when you press the replay button but Ax does nothing at all. Again, all 2C switches appear to be in working condition.)

Please, any help would be appreciated. I've unplugged all other connectors (coin door, play field, back box) to try to isolate the issue. Ive had other options to try that I hoped would solve it but I'm out of ideas! I can provide pictures of anything requested including schematic and manual. Just need some guidance.

#29 11 years ago
Quoted from ReallifePin:

Can someone tell me if the Ax relay should be activating during start up?

I have found this easier to understand.
Start-Up Sequence 1975 to 1978
Starting in 1975 with Fast Draw/Quick Draw
http://www.pinballaustralia.com/startupG.htm

#30 11 years ago

Start up sequence is also available in the owners manual, and I think on Mr. Pinball's site. It is good to know what's suppose to be happening to know what's not happening now. (does that make any sense?)

#31 11 years ago

I agree start at the score motor. It should not be running until you press the start button except to get to the reset position. DOnt worry about the start up sequence till we can actually perform that normally

With out the schematic im guessing but you need to find your home switch on the SM
you're on the right track with 1C. Clean that switch and make sure its gapped correctly

The brake switch is on top but really shouldnt make the motor spin or not spin. It more positions the motor correctly when it stops

--Jeff

#32 11 years ago

Thanks everyone. I am going through the schematics and going to try to translate them into something my brain can understand. I am really starting to feel very over my head. Every time I feel like I understand what I'm doing I end up in the same spot. If I could just get the score motor to stop... UGGGHHHH!!! Will there be a "home switch" on the schematic or do I need to figure out which switch is the home switch? I'll be looking at where the score motor gets power but I am just so frustrated now! I don't even know what questions to ask.

It seems I need to get motor in home position, understood. "In a normal at rest condition, the score motor will be in a position where a “dog” will be resting in one of the 3 notches in the Top Cam, at Level C, Position 1." I'll look again when I get home but all 1C switches appeared to be in the right state (NO switches were open, NC switches were closed). WTF?

#33 11 years ago

The home switch could also be 4C in the stack.

Remember count the levels from the bottom A, B , C , D etc

Also make sure the switches are clean and not just in the correct position.

is it possible to email me the schematic?

pinball AT way2wyrd DOT com

--Jeff

#34 11 years ago
Quoted from way2wyrd:

The home switch could also be 4C in the stack.
Remember count the levels from the bottom A, B , C , D etc
Also make sure the switches are clean and not just in the correct position.
is it possible to email me the schematic?
pinball AT way2wyrd DOT com
--Jeff

I can take some pics of it and e-mail those. It'll be this evening.

I would really appreciate any help.

#35 11 years ago

Looking at a manual from the year before Im pretty sure youre looking for the inside most switch on 1C for the motor runout switch

-- Jeff

#36 11 years ago

That's the switch I assumed too. It definitely looks well worn. I'll make sure to get it cleaned up tonight.

Thanks again for the help!

#37 11 years ago

ok so this is the part of the schematic im interested.
Any of these switches closed makes the motor run as far as i see.

So that being said check all those relays that have the yellow + red / Red White wire on the switch

for a quick troubleshoot you could put a piece of paper in each one of those switches which should keep them open

make sure they are all open score motor 1C should be open when the motor is at home position.

--Jeff

QD_MID_LOWER_RIGHT.jpgQD_MID_LOWER_RIGHT.jpg

#38 11 years ago

I WILL DO THAT!

Thank you for translating that. It's funny, I saw that and thought "Oh God, I hope that's not what I need to check!" But if that's where you suggest then I'm all over it. Thanks for that. It's very cool of you to help me out.

#39 11 years ago
Quoted from way2wyrd:

for a quick troubleshoot you could put a piece of paper in each one of those switches which should keep them open

Try this first!!!

--Jeff

#40 11 years ago
Quoted from way2wyrd:

Try this first!!!
--Jeff

I will. I'll let you know how it goes.

#41 11 years ago

It worked!!

There were several NO switches that were closed. Thanks so much for the help way2wyrd!

#42 11 years ago

Excellent!
Now we can trouble shoot start sequence if necessary.

Can you play a game now?

--Jeff

#43 11 years ago

I've got one stepper to put back together then I'll try starting her up. It was all I could ask for to check those switches on Valentines Day!

#44 11 years ago

Next issue:

When I press start button a Ax relay make break switch blue sparks and starts sore motor running. There is a big blue spark on a 1A switch while motor continues to run.
Up until that point everything in the start sequence is happening correctly.

I am going through the schematics but I'm still learning how to read them. I've checked all relay switches as near as I can tell there isn't a problem there. Any advice? Thanks!

#45 11 years ago

Sparks normally arnt a problem especially when your dealing with some of the high voltage switches.

does it make it thru the rest of the sequence?

#46 11 years ago

No. The motor just keeps running after that.

#47 11 years ago

Just a quick question while I try to track this down. I have the PF removed but can I unplug the back box Jones plugs to try to get through the start sequence or is it necessary?

I'm going to look at these suggestions first:
http://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/gottlieb-new-york-score-motor-keeps-spinning-after-start

#48 11 years ago

Depending on where your relays are you may need the playfield plugged in. The Game over relay and SB relay are sometimes on the relay bank on the playfield

Here is what your start up sequence approximately should be
http://user.xmission.com/~daina/tips/pub/tip0449.html

How far does it get currently in the start up step

Post edited by way2wyrd : Actual start up to be posted. No use wasting space

#49 11 years ago

Well I know that I saw the game over relay on the main board in the cabinet but I'll check on the SB relay. I'll be honest, this only started when I was trying to get farther in the start sequence by adjusting all the relay switches to match the schematics. When people say the AX relays are tricky to adjust what does that mean? They all open and close the way they should as car as my limited knowledge tells me. Don't mean to be a pain. Just looking for some help. I really do appreciate the help.

Also, I have the manual so I can post a picture of the start up if it helps.

#50 11 years ago
Quoted from ReallifePin:

Also, I have the manual so I can post a picture of the start up if it helps.

yes please!

The AX are just a PITA.

so lets look at the actual start up and just take it step by step and we should be through it shortly.

--Jeff

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