Time Warp - no sound


By boostedskex

2 weeks ago


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  • 37 posts
  • 6 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 week ago by boostedskex
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#1 17 days ago

Hi guys. I have been fixing a few issues with the help from Pinsiders. Im down to one last issue with the game and that is it doesnt have any game sounds.

What i know:

- the board is functional. I put it in my Flash and it worked perfectly.

- the test button works and produces the testing sounds when the machine is powered on.

- grounding out the transistors on the MPU does not create the sound.

- wires from mpu plug to sound board plug are in good condition.

- this is driving me crazy and i need your help.

#2 17 days ago

With the game powered off and the dmm set to diode test, red lead on ground and black lead probe all the solenoid driver transistor tabs that are used for the sound board to see if any are shorted to ground.

Logic probe test would be to put the game in rolling solenoid test and watch with the probe on the 4050 buffer on the sound board. Normally they will be pulled high but sink low when the driver board transistor is triggered. Watch each toggle from resting high to briefly low when it's turn comes up in solenoid test. You can follow these signals all the way to the PIA.

#3 17 days ago
Quoted from barakandl:

With the game powered off and the dmm set to diode test, red lead on ground and black lead probe all the solenoid driver transistor tabs that are used for the sound board to see if any are shorted to ground.

What should I see when doing this if one of them is grounded out? I will do this test when I get home.

#4 17 days ago

I went through every transistor on the MPU board. All were reading from 425-499 except one that read 5. Is this the issue? I attached a few pics.

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#5 17 days ago

Yeah that transistor is probably bad. Remove the connector and see if it clears reading short.

Best to use the diode test for that check, but resistance test showed a dead short. Two clicks on dmm counter clockwise.

#6 16 days ago

I replaced that transistor and the pre-driver and I am now getting a reading. Started the game and I still do not have any sound effects. Thanks for your help!

#7 14 days ago

I can't figure this out. Anyone have any other ideas?

#8 14 days ago

Time Warp sound board worked in your Flash. Flip that around, try the Flash sound board in the Time Warp and see how it goes. You want to narrow down the problem.

Did you check the chips and logic gates which drive the transistors? A $15 logic probe helps here.

Also as a general rule, some header pin solder joints are bad on most Williams games of this vintage, and the CPU <> Driver interconnect usually needs replacement.

#9 13 days ago

Yes, i tried the flash sound board in Time Warp. This leads me to think that it is not the sound board itself.

The 40 pin connector was also replaced. I have not done anything with chips on the boards.

#10 12 days ago

is there a specific chip on the MPU or CPU that drives the sounds that I should try to replace?

#11 12 days ago

The big problem is that you grounding the transistors did not fire the sounds.

Like all the transistors are stuck on (seems unlikely), or there is not an actual connection between boards (broken solder joints on connectors).

Pull connector 10J3 off sound board (check my memory,lol) and ground a pin for a millisecond. Does that fire a sound?

#12 12 days ago

I powered the game on and started a game. I pulled the plug from the sound board and as soon as I plugged it back in it started to make a beep. beep. boop. kinda sound that lasted a few seconds. I pulled the plug and then plugged it back in again and it made the same beeps.

I pulled the plug from the sound board again and touched the pins with a grounded wire and it did not make any sounds so I plugged it back in. I then pulled the plug from the MPU and touched the pins with a grounded wire and some of them made a sound when I did that.

My thought is by ground the pins I am sending a signal to the sound board and it makes a sound. Why is the MPU not doing that?

#13 12 days ago

Do me a favor.

Pull the sound card out and give be a pic of both sides.

Especially make sure the rear of the male pins of 10J3 are in focus

#14 12 days ago

will do. Ill take them shortly. I did swap in the sound card from my Flash that works as it should in Flash but doesn't work in Time Warp

#15 12 days ago

Here are some pics. Let me know if you need to see something else/better.

Thanks,
Alex

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#16 10 days ago

tips... advice... hints....something. All of the help has been great so far.

#17 10 days ago

if you are getting noises when removing plugging in the connector i'd have to think one of the inputs is pulled low otherwise the sound board would not respond.

So you isolated the problem to the mpu/driver and not the sound board right?

You found a shorted solenoid on your driver board up above. Perhaps that solenoid is still locked on because the predriver or whatever is damaged / locked. There are certain input patterns that call for silence... perhaps your shorted input is the one that silences the board????

need a logic probe before i can really tell you to go on. I think you need rolling solenoid test mode and monitor every input signal (with a wire attached on SB) and follow it through the 4050 buffers to the PIA. The inputs should be pulled high and then sink low briefly during its turn in solenoid test. See if one is permanently low.

#18 10 days ago

In the close-up picture of the connector on backside of the board I see several bad solder joints. Since the board works in your other game they are unlikely to be the issue but they sure aren't helping. All of those header pins should be re-soldered at minimum. If the rest of your boardset hasn't had this basic step performed then the whole setup is suspect.

Richard

#19 9 days ago
Quoted from someotherguy:

In the close-up picture of the connector on backside of the board I see several bad solder joints.
Richard

I also noticed that and resoldered them while i had it out. Still no luck with it.

#20 9 days ago

I was hoping that the 9pin on the sound card had a bunch of broken solder joints, but no luck.

If the card worked in the other game, then you know the problem is probably on the driver board.

You could swap driver boards, or get/make a logic probe.

#21 9 days ago
Quoted from boostedskex:

I also noticed that and resoldered them while i had it out. Still no luck with it.

Right, but what does the rest of the boardset look like? If it hasn't been gone over, it likely looks just like those headers on the sound board, or worse.

Richard

#22 9 days ago

With the machine powered up, and everything connected, measure the voltage from the solenoid transistor tabs to ground. (Q31, Q33, Q35, Q37, Q39)

If each is near zero volts, something is turning those transistors on (assuming the transistors are good based on the transistor check you performed earlier).

Measure IC3 pins 3, 6, 8, 11 and IC4 pin 8 to ground. Let us know if you get near 0V or near 5V on each of those pins.

#23 8 days ago

I will check this now and report back with my findings.

Thanks,
Alex

#24 8 days ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

With the machine powered up, and everything connected, measure the voltage from the solenoid transistor tabs to ground. (Q31, Q33, Q35, Q37, Q39)

I set my meter to VAC 200

Q31 = 9.9
Q33 = 9.9
Q35 = 9.9
Q37 = 9.9
Q39 = .6

I found IC3 and IC4 but where do I find info on pin identification? I will continue to search.

Thanks,
Alex

#25 8 days ago
Quoted from boostedskex:

I set my meter to VAC 200
Q31 = 9.9
Q33 = 9.9
Q35 = 9.9
Q37 = 9.9
Q39 = .6
I found IC3 and IC4 but where do I find info on pin identification? I will continue to search.
Thanks,
Alex

use dc volts but the fact you got a different reading on q39 probably means it is turned on. Is that the same transistor you found shorted and replaced up above? Perhaps the circuitry behind that transistor is bad and locking it on.

Pin one is bottom left and counts counter clockwise to top left.

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The long edge of the triangles are the inputs to the 4050 buffers. When the game is in rolling solenoid test the input pins should be sitting high (5.0v) and then sink low for a moment during their turn during solenoid test.

The point of the triangle is the buffer output. Since this is a non inverting buffer with no enables, the output will match the input always

#26 8 days ago

VDC readings:
Q31 = 4.95
Q33 = 4.95
Q35 = 4.94
Q37 = 4.94
Q39 = .61

I have not done anything to Q39 at this point. I will check the voltage on IC3 3,6,8 and 11 now

#27 8 days ago
Quoted from boostedskex:

VDC readings:
Q31 = 4.95
Q33 = 4.95
Q35 = 4.94
Q37 = 4.94
Q39 = .61
I have not done anything to Q39 at this point. I will check the voltage on IC3 3,6,8 and 11 now

Q39 is stuck turned on or has a collector to emitter short.

#28 8 days ago

I will start by replacing the Q39 transistor/predriver

#29 8 days ago

IC3 and IC4 on the driver board should be 7408 (pinout posted). Pin 1 is on the end of the chip with the notch.

I agree with Andrew that Q39 is either failed shorted or being turned on by something upstream. You can either shotgun replace the pre-driver and driver or you could check IC4 pin 8 to see if it is high (near 5V). If it is low (near 0V), your pre-driver or driver is shot. If it is high you should measure the voltage of the inputs to that gate, pins 9 and 10.

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#30 8 days ago

I just finished replacing driver/predriver Q39. My reading is now .64. Just a slight change

i then checked IC4 and got the below readings:

pin 8 = .14
pin 9 = 3.35
pin10 = .08

I greatly appreciate you guys walking me through this to come up with a solution.

THanks,
Alex

#31 8 days ago

Hey Alex, those measurements on IC4 look correct.

I suspect the wiring for Solenoid 13 back to the sound board is not working or you have a problem with your sound board (unlikely since it worked in Flash). Here is why.

There are pull-up resistors on the sound board that pull the voltage up to 5V when the solenoid transistors are off. This makes the reading on the tab of the transistors close to 5V when the transistors are off. You are getting 5V on all but Q39 when all transistors are supposed to be off. The readings you listed from IC4 tell us that the upstream components are not turning Q39 on. So the next logical thing to check is that the wiring for Q39, Solenoid 13, is good back to the pull-up resistor on the sound board.

The signal from Q39 leaves the driver board at pin 3 of J9 (counting up from the bottom) and enter the sound board at J3 pin 7.
As a first check, make sure you have re-flowed the solder on all pins of driver board J9 and sound board J3. Remeasure the voltage on the tab of Q39
Remove the connector on sound board J3, measure the voltage at pin 7 (count from right to left, pin 1 is the key and there will not be a pin). If this is 5V continue. If this is not 5V, you have a bad resistor on your sound board.
Carefully inspect the wiring between the 2 boards, especially the connectors on both ends and especially the pins of interest listed above.

#32 8 days ago

Also, check R67 on the driver board to make sure it hasn't failed open. It should be 2.7K

#33 8 days ago

I previously reflowed all of the solder on the all of the boards but I will recheck them.

I removed the wiring harness from the driver board to the sound board and inspected all of the wires and female pins in the plugs - All looks great.

I removed plug J3 from the sound board and tested pin 7 and it shows 4.94V. If I put J3 plug back on the sound board and probe the plug from the back it only shows .64 which is the same reading I get down on Q39.

I started rechecking things and I gave you bad info. I mixed up IC3 and IC4 in my above post. My real IC4 readings are:

IC4:
pin 8 = 2.17
pin 9 = 3.37
pin 10 = 2.23

#34 7 days ago

Those readings are odd. Make sure your meter is set to DC volts. Use a ground point on the board. The ground test point, mounting screw. They should be closer to 5v or 0v. Not in the middle like that.

#35 7 days ago

I just finished testing it again. I performed the test while the game is powered on but in attract mode and i used the board mounting screw as the ground.

Meter set to VDC
pin 8 = 2.1
pin 9 = 3.3
pin 10 = 2.2

#36 7 days ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Those readings are odd. Make sure your meter is set to DC volts. Use a ground point on the board. The ground test point, mounting screw. They should be closer to 5v or 0v. Not in the middle like that.

B side ports on a 6821 only drive to TTL high, I don't think there are any pullups on the pia ports. But still I am surprised the blanking (ic4 pin 9) is that low tho and that the 7408 output is only driving 2.2v. I think the blanking should sit closer to 5v... maybe it getting dragged down somewhere.... blanking can be a a pain because it goes to so many places.

This is where a scope or logic probe is nice... is it 2.2v because P8 is oscillating and that is the avg voltage or is it a flat line 2.2v because of a blown chip.

Guessing the PIA or that 7408 is bad.... i would probably do the 7408 since you had a shorted transistor.

And again very odd a solenoid transistor for the sound board would be bad... hrmmm .... i wonder if a connector mixup happened at some point in the past.

#37 7 days ago

I swapped in the MPU from my Flash and played a few games. So much better with sounds/music. Anyone have an MPU board for sale?

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