(Topic ID: 308501)

Time Warp issues (Williams system 6)

By LongJohns

2 years ago


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  • 16 posts
  • 4 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Schwaggs
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#1 2 years ago

Having some issues with a Time Warp .

Bullet proofed boards according to Vid's thread.

At power on, no displays, MPU LEDs come on solid. Power supply voltages measure OK. This was the same before doing the bullet proofing.

On the bench: Leon's test ROM does the same with just 5v supplied - both LED turn on. IC14 created and installed.

#2 2 years ago

Are you jumpering the reset circuit on the bench? If not, you need 12v in addition to 5v

If so, time to break out the logic probe and see what’s happening (or not). Check for CPU clock pulsing, check the test points to see if they are behaving properly. This pdf has graphs that show what you should see at each test point (this info is also in the Williams schematics but this is easier to read in the linked version).

http://www.firepowerpinball.com/downloads/CPUBoard.pdf

#3 2 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Are you jumpering the reset circuit on the bench? If not, you need 12v in addition to 5v
If so, time to break out the logic probe and see what’s happening (or not). Check for CPU clock pulsing, check the test points to see if they are behaving properly. This pdf has graphs that show what you should see at each test point (this info is also in the Williams schematics but this is easier to read in the linked version).
http://www.firepowerpinball.com/downloads/CPUBoard.pdf

Thank you for the drawing.

Test point 6 the signal is a bit off in shape (see pictures). All other test points seem to be normal.

Clock signal is present although a bit low in frequency @ 3571.42857 (but that could me the way I am reading it) - but it is only 1v p-p (seems low).

1 thing I also noted is that when I connect the driver board (bench test), the 5volt line drops to 3.6 (cannot adjust higher) - so looks like another problem there as well?
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#4 2 years ago

If you try to measure clock signal at the crystal, your scope will load it too much, causing drop in amplitude and frequency. The clock is probably OK since you get pulsing waveforms elsewhere.

Test point 6 signal is OK even if it is not exactly square.

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from Tuukka:

If you try to measure clock signal at the crystal, your scope will load it too much, causing drop in amplitude and frequency. The clock is probably OK since you get pulsing waveforms elsewhere.
Test point 6 signal is OK even if it is not exactly square.

Ok thank you.

Just not getting anything on the PIA with the test ROM. Come to think of it TP7 voltage may have been off - I will need to double check that.

Another thing maybe worth mentioning, when in the game, the 12v only reads 10v. When there is no load on the PS, it reads just over 12v.

I don't have a spare CPU to try that, could this be the issue?

#6 2 years ago

The 12V is unregulated, so there might be some variation. But I think it should be more on the over 12V side. Check D7 and D8 on power supply (failure in one of those will also cause excessive ripple in +5V) And of course the filter cap C15.

#7 2 years ago

I’d leave the driver board disconnected for now.

12v is only used by the reset circuit. If the board isn’t being held in reset, I’d ignore that for now.

Assuming you are using Leon’s ROM. What are you seeing on the LEDs? What happens when you press the diag button?

Looks like your basics are running. Pick a PIA and probe the data bus pins and address bus pins. Look for one that isn’t pulsing. If you find one not pulsing, trace it back to the CPU and see where the signal dies.

You removed all the ROMs when installing Leon’s rom, right?

If any of the memory or PIAs are socketed, remove them to reduce the possible failure points.

#8 2 years ago

Try a test ROM that checks the PIAs on the driver board and more thorougly checks the RAM on the MPU. Leon's test is just good to make the PIAs cycle. The memory checks in that test ROM have been unreliable. It will report the wrong 6810 as being bad and etc.

The MPU will not boot up without the driver board connected, but you should be able to get far enough to use the diag button on the MPU to see if it reports a RAM ROM issue. I would pull the driver board off, power on to see if it still is totally locked up.

Test ROM only runs from 1 flipper ROM spot. Two more sockets are used with real game software, make sure no opens on the other socket.

#9 2 years ago

Using Leons test ROM in IC17 location, no other EPROM installed. 5v and 12v supplied - no other connections, driver board not connected.

MPU board
@ power up (mostly) both LED come on and stay on, pin 15 IC1 strobing @ ~ 1 flash per second.
However, sometimes @ power on:
no LED on
once or twice only top LED on
once or twice where it flashed once (on, off, on steady)

IC16 - PIA
D0-D7 strobing
PA and PB will vary: sometimes high, sometimes low, sometimes will strobe and then stop.

No change when diagnostic switch is pressed - it is working as TP2 will go low when pressed, and high when released

TP7 - voltage actually measures 4.86 volts

#10 2 years ago

The random starting and not makes me think about IC sockets. Did you replace the CPU and at least iC 17 rom socket?

The RAM socket or any of the other sockets will not cause Leon’s program to not start. I’d focus on getting it to start reliably.

#11 2 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

The random starting and not makes me think about IC sockets. Did you replace the CPU and at least iC 17 rom socket?
The RAM socket or any of the other sockets will not cause Leon’s program to not start. I’d focus on getting it to start reliably.

All sockets on the board replaced: IC1, IC18, IC14, IC17, IC20 and IC13 as was C23. I also resoldered all headers and replace 1J1 header.

As a side note, the power supply was also rebuilt according to the bullet proofing thread.

IC19 is the only socket I didn't replace as I don't have that size. There are no other sockets on the board

#12 2 years ago

Ok, you say D0-D7 on IC16 PIA are strobing. Do they all sound the same? What about the address lines?

Try pulling all the chips you can other than cpu, rom and one pia. Check again.

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Ok, you say D0-D7 on IC16 PIA are strobing. Do they all sound the same? What about the address lines?
Try pulling all the chips you can other than cpu, rom and one pia. Check again.

Strobing may be the wrong word - they pulse (logic probe pulse light flashes) and yes they are all the same pulse rate

Removed IC5 (7402), IC18 (6821 PIA), IC13 (RAM) and IC19 (CMOS RAM) - nothing changed.

All address and data lines coming out of the CPU pulse at the same rate (IC's in or out). With PIA out the D0-D7 socket pins, pulse signal present.

On the PIA when installed again:
D0-D7 pulse - same rate as CPU address/data
All PA and PB - high
On the following pins: 40-low, 39-high, 38-high, 37-hi, 34-high, 18-low, 19-low, 21-high

#14 2 years ago

Do you have any new PIAs to try? Sounds line you might have a bad one. If all the data and address lines are pulsing with Leon’s rom, all the outputs of the pia should be cycling.

#15 2 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Do you have any new PIAs to try? Sounds line you might have a bad one. If all the data and address lines are pulsing with Leon’s rom, all the outputs of the pia should be cycling.

Yes, I have tried a few actually thinking maybe some of the ones I have are bad. lol

Just wondering if one of the signals on the other pins are disabling the PIA?

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from LongJohns:

Yes, I have tried a few actually thinking maybe some of the ones I have are bad. lol
Just wondering if one of the signals on the other pins are disabling the PIA?

Totally possible and probable. That’s why you remove as many ram, rom and pia chips as you can to reduce the failure points. Do not remove other TTL chips as some are addressing etc.

It’s also why you listen to the tone on your logic probe of the address and data bus. You are looking for one that is stuck high or low or is pulsing significantly different than the others.

Check the chip selects on the PIAs to make sure they are pulsing. If they are not, trace up the path to the addressing chip on that select.

Do you have a new CPU chip to try?

At some point, I’d just pull and socket the PIAs. Especially if one is AMI brand. Then you can insert them one at a time to see if one is squashing something.

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