(Topic ID: 163373)

TIME to Stump the tech. TZ. NOT Resolved, Damn this clock

By inhomearcades

7 years ago


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#1 7 years ago

I rarely like to admit defeat but I have to say I am pretty irritated with my twilight zone. I have clock problems and I have encountered clock problems before but not like this. Here is where I am at:

The clock did not work on the game when I got it although it had a new rotten dog board in it. I took the clock apart to access the optos on it and went into the test menu. Some of the opts were not working so I figured easy fix, swap it with a new board. Same result. So at this point I figured I rebuilt the clock wrong and took it back apart. Rebuilt the clock again, hooked it up with the playfield in the upright position from under the playfield, clock works great. Unplug everything and mount it on the topside, put the playfield down and turn the game on, clock error. SOB. Take the clock off again, second guess my assembly and do it all over yet again, install with playfield up works great, move on to the full install, drop the playfield down and clock error.

At this point I start checking all ribbon cables, the clock harness, all connections on the opto board, connections to cpu, basically double check all wires involved. No change. So I decide time to go to the shop, grab another clock from a tz that I know works. Swap it into the game with the playfield up from the underside of the game, clock works great. Install it on the topside, clock shows bad. Now if either of these clocks are installed on the topside and I raise the playfield up, they both work great then too. So there has to be something going on when the playfield is lowered that I just don't see. I have ensured that no harnesses are being pulled when the playfield goes down. The only thing I have not done yet is replace the opto board on the bottom of the playfield, maybe there is a cold soldier joint, replace the rom chip in the cpu or swap the cpu all together.

Some background:
I have rebuilt maybe 20 clocks over the years, I am not an expert but I am familiar with them.

I made sure the teeth are lined up as well as the line for the black gear.

Checked all continuity of the clock wiring harness. I also even swapped the harness with the second clock harness to see if it would make a difference and no change.

Have had switch test open with the playfield raised up, watched all switches and lowered the playfield, no switches activate or deactivate when the playfield gets lowered.

So if anyone has experienced this please let me know what I can do to remedy this issue. It is driving me nuts. Also if anyone can think of anything that I have overlooked please let me know. I did order a replacement board from INGO in germany and will have it hopefully soon.

Thanks for any help.

#2 7 years ago

Is there an external lightsource shining on the clock ? I've seen that a halogen lamp 2 meters away from a WMS-IJ had influence on the optos. Also bright ceiling lamps shining on a HS2 did weird things with the opto's.
Check also playfield lamps that shine to the clock.

#3 7 years ago

Look for something pinching a wire when the playfield is down.

On my EBD I had a solenoid wire too close to a playfield support and it eventually cut through the insulation causing a ground short. The solenoid would lock on intermittently only when the playfield was down and it was too far back to see from the coin door. Drove me nuts until I figured it out!

#4 7 years ago

Zaza, not a bad guess but it happens with and with out the light on as well as my house and the previous owners home.

Jgaltr56, I am thinking pinched wire too, but with the switch matrix on the screen the game has no switch changes registered when the playfield gets moved. So if it was a pinched wire I would think the opto would show itself closed or open depending on its normal position.

Thanks for the thoughts so far everyone

#5 7 years ago

I had a similar but not the exact problem where my clock worked when I plugged it in, under the pf to test, but when I installed it where it goes it showed clock error. After uninstalling it and readjusting the wires a bit if worked fine. It's a tight fit with all the wires along with plastic protectors and the piano mod installed too, so I think there was a pinched wire somewhere causing it. I'd look along those lines.

#6 7 years ago

Could the hands not be interrupting the optos? With the clock loose and the playfield down, you could try the test with the clock face facing up, and see if that's different from when it's in its normal position.

12
#7 7 years ago

Run into this all the time with the Rottendog clock board and it is an annoying but simple fix.
Put a little shrink tube on the interruptor part of the minute hand so it is just a little better at blocking the opto.
The reason it works in the upright position so well but not in the regular is that the hands are settled in that position from gravity. When in the natural position they are more forward from the natural incline.
I always have to do this fix on Rottendog clock boards and do not prefer them as a result.

#8 7 years ago
Quoted from High_End_Pins:

Run into this all the time with the Rottendog clock board and it is an annoying but simple fix.
Put a little shrink tube on the interruptor part of the minute hand so it is just a little better at blocking the opto.
The reason it works in the upright position so well but not in the regular is that the hands are settled in that position from gravity. When in the natural position they are more forward from the natural incline.
I always have to do this fix on Rottendog clock boards and do not prefer them as a result.

I remember that this had been documented once before, I totally forgot about this particular fault. Great post!

#9 7 years ago
Quoted from High_End_Pins:

Run into this all the time with the Rottendog clock board and it is an annoying but simple fix.
Put a little shrink tube on the interruptor part of the minute hand so it is just a little better at blocking the opto.
The reason it works in the upright position so well but not in the regular is that the hands are settled in that position from gravity. When in the natural position they are more forward from the natural incline.
I always have to do this fix on Rottendog clock boards and do not prefer them as a result.

I'll give this a shot today. Does it need to extend further that the current hand does or same length where the hand currently is.

#10 7 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

I'll give this a shot today. Does it need to extend further that the current hand does or same length where the hand currently is.

I would go a bit longer as long as it doesnt rub

#11 7 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

I'll give this a shot today. Does it need to extend further that the current hand does or same length where the hand currently is.

Just a touch further. It is the 12 of clock opto that usually misses.You just want to make a small nipple essentially .
The shrink tube works well because it can't really be seen and it is slightly flexible if it does drag a little in the process.

#12 7 years ago
Quoted from High_End_Pins:

Run into this all the time with the Rottendog clock board and it is an annoying but simple fix.
Put a little shrink tube on the interruptor part of the minute hand so it is just a little better at blocking the opto.
The reason it works in the upright position so well but not in the regular is that the hands are settled in that position from gravity. When in the natural position they are more forward from the natural incline.
I always have to do this fix on Rottendog clock boards and do not prefer them as a result.

Chris, you were dead on. For some reason I have not had this issue pop up on a few other rotten dog boards in the past but it did this time and the heat shrink solved the problem. I spent 4 hours rebuilding these clocks, swapping harnesses, changing out gears, etc and in about 1 minute your trick fixed my issue.

I'd like to thank everyone for commenting and taking the time to read about my issue. Threads like this are why I still stick around Pinside in a time of such negativity. I hope that negativity doesn't push so many of the great assets on this site because with out them Pinside would never last. A donation has just been made on behalf of this thread, thank you guys for getting this figured out.

Happy 4th!

#13 7 years ago

Hey Everyone,
So I was hoping this was resolved but running into the same damn issue. Works underneath the game, not on top. I have attempted to redo the heat shrink, double it up, make it longer, shorter, etc. On the bottom side of the playfield when it works, I can hold the clock in literally any position, face down, face up, sideways doesn't matter it still works hooked up on the bottom of the playfield. In clock test it seems as though its the hour optos are whats messed up but I can't be sure. I have pulled on the harnesses, manipulated the direction they are and anything I could think of to see if its a connector issue. I also even considered that the leds in the game were too bright and causing interference with the optos, so I disconnected all GI in the playfield and the backbox. I just don't know what else to attempt.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

#14 7 years ago

If it works perfectly under the playfield what is changing?

My guess is a wire broken somewhere in the harness. It has connection then loses connection during a certain bend in the wire.

Its the only thing that makes sense to me.

Take your DMM on buzz and check the wires from the clocks board pins the other end of the clock harness wire. Check it mounted above the playfield.
I bet a ground or power wire to the offending optos is bad. But good when it's not bent through the playfield hole.

One I worked on before, had bad wires in the factory grey shielding on the massive bend the wires have just after the Molex connector. When it was not bolted in it worked, bolted down it didn't.

Seems like maybe a similar wierd issue.

Good luck.

#15 7 years ago

Keep the clock on the top of the playfield, but loosen it so it is not bolted down tight and test. Maybe even hold it in place without anything holding it down, then try holding it in different positions to see if you can get it to work / not work. This may be a better test for a wire short than what you were doing under the playfield.

#16 7 years ago
Quoted from erak:

If it works perfectly under the playfield what is changing?
My guess is a wire broken somewhere in the harness. It has connection then loses connection during a certain bend in the wire.
Its the only thing that makes sense to me.
Take your DMM on buzz and check the wires from the clocks board pins the other end of the clock harness wire. Check it mounted above the playfield.
I bet a ground or power wire to the offending optos is bad. But good when it's not bent through the playfield hole.
One I worked on before, had bad wires in the factory grey shielding on the massive bend the wires have just after the Molex connector. When it was not bolted in it worked, bolted down it didn't.
Seems like maybe a similar wierd issue.
Good luck.

Quoted from T7:

Keep the clock on the top of the playfield, but loosen it so it is not bolted down tight and test. Maybe even hold it in place without anything holding it down, then try holding it in different positions to see if you can get it to work / not work. This may be a better test for a wire short than what you were doing under the playfield.

This is the thought process I have had and I have attempted to vet out a few of the issues. I did meter all my connections for the clock harness, they came out fine but just to be sure, I swapped the harness with another clock harness to no change. I attempted to manipulate the wires a lot to see if it was a loose or intermittent connection, which I still think it is but I can not get any change in the switch matrix no matter what I do to the wires, there never seems to be a switch change when pulling, bending and straightening the wires.

I had the clock plugged in through the playfield and attempted to test the clock in every imaginable way to see if the clock would work through the playfield and no change.

I am pretty stumped. At this point the only thing I can think of is the opto driver board may be flaky?

#17 7 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

At this point the only thing I can think of is the opto driver board may be flaky?

On the clock board, if that's your 'driver'. As just came up recently with someone else having a problem with the clock - the optos on the clock are NOT driven by the opto (10- or two 7-) board(s) in TZ.

#18 7 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

On the clock board, if that's your 'driver'. As just came up recently with someone else having a problem with the clock - the optos on the clock are NOT driven by the opto (10- or two 7-) board(s) in TZ.

Sorry I wasn't very clear. I was thinking it was the opto board mounted on the bottom of the playfield. Is that a possibility?

#19 7 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

Sorry I wasn't very clear. I was thinking it was the opto board mounted on the bottom of the playfield. Is that a possibility?

Nope. That board only does the playfield optos.

Clock optos are connected directly to the switch rows - their column comes from the 8-drvier board in the backbox. This unlikely ould be affected whether the playfield is up or down.

#20 7 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Nope. That board only does the playfield optos.
Clock optos are connected directly to the switch rows - their column comes from the 8-drvier board in the backbox. This unlikely ould be affected whether the playfield is up or down.

Ugh, I was hoping that was my culprit but atleast you saved me the hassle from swapping it out. What's driving me crazy is that even with swapping the clock harnesses it doesn't work. It points to the harness going to the 8 driver board in the backbox. Problem is they all meter out.

#21 7 years ago

Check the wiring at the clock target between the ramps for a loose or broken wire. Check all the other wires on the same switch rows and columns for something loose.

Rob

#22 7 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

Some of the opts were not working so

I just saw this, and didn't see a clarification -
By 'not working' - do you mean that they are always ACTIVE (square with 'x' through it) or INACTIVE (empty square).
Also - which optos?

#23 7 years ago

If you have not already tried this install the clock as normal then raise the playfield in the upright position.
Put the game in clock test and let it run.
As it is running slowly lower the playfield a little at a time and see if or when it flakes out.
At that position if found wedge it there and check the sides for a short possibly to the metal bracket or pivots on the inner cabinet in the switch harness.

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