(Topic ID: 149171)

Time for an official pinball handicap system?

By Baiter

8 years ago


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    #1 8 years ago

    I spent about 10 years competing in amateur pool leagues and tournaments (8-ball) before getting into competitive pinball, which I've done now for 8 years, and in that time I haven't been able to shake the idea that a solid handicap system would be the best way to entice and increase participation in competitive pinball.

    What exactly is a handicap system? It's an artificial means of leveling the playing field designed to increase competitiveness amongst all participants. The NFL does this in the form of a salary cap and the result has been less stacking of teams and more game by game competitiveness across the board... making it more enjoyable for the majority of fans. Pool leagues do this by requiring more wins from higher ranked players when they play against lower ranked players. Having such a a handicap system also provides a mechanism to avoid team stacking like the NFL salary cap. A good handicap system isn't drastic enough to alter the expected outcome a substantial amount, it's primarily to give the impression that everyone has a chance no matter the skill level, so the question is how to do this with pinball.

    There are those that are opposed to handicap systems on principal, as if it is a punishment to the best players and a reward to the worst, reducing incentives of both to compete and improve. All I can say is that I've never heard this complaint in pool leagues and tournaments... the better players enjoy the extra challenge that they would otherwise not have when playing against a low ranked opponent. It gives low ranked players the impression that they actually have a chance if the ball bounces their way. Individual competitiveness exists with or without a handicap system... I'd assert there are as many uber-competitive players as there are players who aren't concerned about winning, and nothing will change that. The problem that comes with handicaps is sandbagging by those who like to game the system for unfair advantage, particularly at tournaments where money is on the line. The latter is not easy to deal with, but at some point it's obvious enough to be be dealt with by league and tournament operators on an individual basis.... statistics and reputations are easy enough to acquire.

    Pinball handicaps are already in use in many different forms, usually by a ranking system used to match players of similar skill together, or applying a score differential, but I've seen nothing that comes close to being effective at allowing the best and worst to feel like competing with each other is anything but an exercise in futility.

    #2 8 years ago

    I'll illustrate how the APA handicap works. APA is an amateur pool player ranking system whose goal is to make it competitive for everyone, a slightly different goal than IFPA, which is to establish a world ranking. All players are given a handicap of 2-7, 7 being the best. It requires 10 matches before the handicap is considered accurate, and you can now pit any combination of players together in a match using a “games must win” chart. For example 4 vs 4 is a race to 3 (first player to win 3 games wins the match). 6 vs 6 is a race to 5. 5 vs 3 requires the 5 to win 4 games before the 3 wins 2. 7 vs 2 requires the 7 to win 7 games before the 2 wins 2 games. Like pinball there's some luck involved with pool, so for example if your opponent scratches on the 8 ball, you win the game even if you hadn't yet picked up a cue stick. Similarly in pinball, everyone has their share of house balls so a single game pinball match becomes a hit and miss proposition. A worldwide handicap rating allows players from across leagues and across the country to comfortably compete with each other in any level of competition.

    APA leagues are typically team based, whereas tournaments can be either team or individual based, and this handicap is used to avoid team stacking. A max of 23 points can be spread across 5 matches, meaning you can play a team with ratings of 7+7+5+2+2 (23 points), against a team of 6+5+4+4+4 (23 points), at which point a league night is like chess game. The two 7's would usually beat the 6 and 5 (even with the handicap), the two 4's would beat the 2's, and then the entire night likely comes down to the much more competitive 5 vs 4 match. More uneven matches are risky, but frequently come into play as the situation demands it. This team concept is a key attraction to pool and bowling leagues but is rare in pinball. Strategy goes beyond individual matches and into team strategy, including sequence of matches. If you lose your match you let down your team, you win and you are a hero for the night. If you consistently win your match you will be earmarked as a clutch competitor for your team, commonly saved for the final match when it is a 2-2 tie, or even match #3 when you are up 2-0 and want to close the door. Leagues based on individuals playing within their skill groups pale in comparison to this level of strategy and socialization within and between teams.

    APA pool tournaments for individuals tend to have more flexibility than leagues, and it's common for the handicap system to be relaxed into 3 tiers instead of 6 (2-3, 4-5, 6-7) so that the games to win differential isn't as drastic now that money is on the line. The result is that if you are playing above your rating on that day you will do well and if you are playing below it you will struggle. 6's and 7's still win the majority of the time as their advantage increases relative to league play, but now those two are on even ground with each other. In pinball I have yet to see a tournament that applies any sort of handicap other than applying tiers to the finals (A, B, C) which is not a handicap, it is used to shorten the finals rounds to the A group participants. Anything other finish is the equivalent of a participation trophy.

    #3 8 years ago

    So the question is how to add a handicap into pinball. A good starting point is leagues with team play. Monday Night Pinball is an example of this (https://mondaynightpinball.com), and Ryan Wanger is trying to initiate a similar league in Colorado (see https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/interest-in-a-denver-front-range-team-league). A team league needs a thorough handicap system to enforce competitiveness. Monday Night Pinball uses the IFPA rankings for handicapping (no more than 1 player may be ranked in the top 150, nor more than 2 players ranked in the top 500, nor more than 3 players ranked in the top 1000 of IFPA's World Pinball Player Rankings), but it doesn't account for skills of players ranked below 1000. Also as IFPA's goal is to provide a world wide ranking, it tends to skew toward those who participate in a lot of rated events, whereas a typical league-only participant may take 10 years (2 leagues per year) to get the 20 minimum ratings for IFPAA regardless of the number o matches played (leagues commonly hold 100+ matches/player/year). The APA handicap system resolves this by using matches as the basis of ratings instead of league and tournament results, making it both more accurate and more real time.

    We already have established 4 tiers of participants in pinball(A-D divisions), so it's a reasonable place to start. We can use a simple game differential like
    A vs A is a 3 to 3 match, A vs B is a 3 to 2 match, A vs C is a 4 to 2 match, and A vs D is a 5 to 2 match.
    B vs B is a 3 to 3 match, B vs C is a 3 to 2 match, B vs D is a 4 to 2 match
    C vs D is a 3 to 2 match

    If the game differential isn't attractive, we can use a scoring differential. I used crude calculations based on 655 games from 3 or 4 player match play from a 29 player league, IFPA rankings from unranked up to #50, all game eras, and applied estimated A-D rating to all players to come up with the following:
    A vs B players won by an average of 183% of score. A vs C 265%, A vs D 466%.
    B vs C 144%, B vs D 239%,
    C vs D 185%.

    Based on that, it's more than reasonable to apply score differentials in an otherwise even-game match between unequal players. Lets start by using no more than half that differential for the handicaps with consistent gaps:

    A has to beat B's by 130%, C's by 160%, and D's by 190%.
    B has to beat C's by 130%, and D's by 160%
    C has to beat D's by 130%

    How does that affect players? Realistically if you are an A player going against a D player is it going to be tough to outscore them by 2x? Not if the rankings are legitimate. Is it going to be tougher for an A going against a B than it would be a D? Of course, it will be tougher with or without the handicap.

    To summarize the goal here is to make all the matchups more interesting, give the better players more challenge, and the beginners the impression that they actually have a chance. What do you think?

    #4 8 years ago

    It's been kicked around before, but I've never seen anyone put it to use.
    I think a neat system would be:
    A vs B = A player plunges first ball, no flips
    A vs C = A player plunges 1 & 2, no flips
    Past that, it would have to be 5 ball machines, but you get the idea

    #5 8 years ago

    As a C or realistically D player, I like the idea of having a system that allow me to have enjoyable competition with the A players. We do have divisions and our tournaments aren't amateur or professional, their amateur and professional. I'm not sure it would be fair if I won PAPA with a handicap system. I'm not suggesting that is what you intended either. I'm just thinking out loud.

    It would be great for team play. Team members could be of all skill levels but enjoy working together. Teams could win championships that the individual players wouldn't be able to obtain on their own.

    Great idea to to kick around. Thanks for putting in the time and sharing your ideas.

    #6 8 years ago

    I like the way it works for tennis. Players are assigned a rating from 1.0 (newbie) to 7.0 (pro). Players only compete against players with the same rating. A governing body reviews win/loss records and promotes/demotes players to a different tier on a periodic basis.

    I know I would be more interested in competing in tournaments or playing in a local league if there was something like this in place. I simply don't bother to play in tournaments now because I know I can't win.

    #7 8 years ago

    Personally, I don't really understand handicapping. Even if you gave me an advantage against a better player and I won, I'd still know I beat them using an advantage. If I still lost, I'd feel like even more of a dick. It's a lose/lose for me.

    #8 8 years ago
    Quoted from beelzeboob:

    Personally, I don't really understand handicapping. Even if you gave me an advantage against a better player and I won, I'd still know I beat them using an advantage. If I still lost, I'd feel like even more of a dick. It's a lose/lose for me.

    That's why I recommend the tennis rating system. If that were implemented, you would only be playing other players with similar skill levels.

    #9 8 years ago

    At one show I went to, the tournament that was running had a beginner, intermediate, and advanced tiers for players. If players were too good for a lower tier, they were bumped up to the next tier.

    #10 8 years ago
    Quoted from Damonator:

    I know I would be more interested in competing in tournaments or playing in a local league if there was something like this in place. I simply don't bother to play in tournaments now because I know I can't win.

    The league I run, and most I have seen, DO have this.
    You play, then are grouped the following week against players that had similar results.
    If you do well, you move up. If you do bad, you go down.
    For the league finals (tonight!), the top 16 finishers play "A" division, and the rest (19 players) play "B"
    That takes all the really good players out of the tourney for the casual/funtime players.
    "A" division has more cash prizes to win, but it is nice for the "B" players to play a tourney for good cash ($600+!) and not have to deal with the usual "ringers".

    #11 8 years ago
    Quoted from beelzeboob:

    Personally, I don't really understand handicapping. Even if you gave me an advantage against a better player and I won, I'd still know I beat them using an advantage. If I still lost, I'd feel like even more of a dick. It's a lose/lose for me.

    The important point to realize is that handicapping is already prevalent in leagues around the world, and it usually involves matching players of equal skill level together. If you are a B or C who wins the league over the A's you do realize you will have had a much easier time getting there than an A. In other words while you were spending many of your games against B and C players the A players were spending all their time against A players. A players will feel slighted by losing the league to a lower ranked player, and the lower ranked player will have used their ranking to their advantage. It's not substantially different the system I am proposing.

    The prerequisite to be able to match equal players together is to have a rating system. Leagues commonly use a bubble sort over the course of a season, matching players next to each other in their own internal ranking, where the best rise to the top, and the worst performers fall to the bottom. What happens to new players who join a league or players who change from one league to another? It will take weeks to get them to bubble into their legitimate spot. What I'm proposing is a universal handicap system that can be accurate for all players day 1 in all leagues.

    #12 8 years ago

    Our league ranks everyone by points.

    There are 6 games chosen to play and everyone plays them with whomever they wish regardless of skill level. After the week and everyone has played, the top score on a machine gets 145 points, the next highest score gets 140, and so on. Somewhere along the line, it changes to 1 point less for each successive drop in score. This happens for all 6 tables and scores are totalled up.

    We do this for 8 weeks, with your lowest week total being dropped off.

    Top 24 players are Division A
    Next 24 are Division B
    Next 24 are Division C
    And finally everyone else is Division D.

    Top three in each division playoffs get cash prizes, with A getting bigger prizes than B, B bigger than C, etc.

    For league, I've liked this system because in the playoffs I'm competing against similarly skilled players.

    For stand alone tournaments, if there were a handicap system in place, I may compete more. I don't bother now, because I know I can't beat the top guys.

    #13 8 years ago

    With a player base of ~40k registered in IFPA, you are going to run into player pool issues for smaller events. Divisions are the best way to handle this, locally and on a large scale. Otherwise, you have to have info on average scores for a player on a specific machine. The problem there is that one TZ to the next might be completely different, so even then it's not completely accurate. I could play TZ at D&D here 10 times and get an average score. If I go play the one at PAPA, should I expect to score within a standard deviation of that score?

    A pool table is a pool table, a bowling lane is a bowling lane. Not a ton of room for variances. Pins are the furthest thing from a constant you will find, which makes it very tough. Locally, I can normally tell you within 2 positions where I will end up in an event up to 25 players large. You just learn the typical rankings and take into account who has improved lately and who is out of practice.

    That said, I don't really want to know my handicap, or even have one. If I want to know how I stack up against Keith Elwin or Josh Sharpe I'll have to go to an event they are at and see where I land.

    #14 8 years ago
    Quoted from Geocab:

    Our league ranks everyone by points.
    There are 6 games chosen to play and everyone plays them with whomever they wish regardless of skill level. After the week and everyone has played, the top score on a machine gets 145 points, the next highest score gets 140, and so on. Somewhere along the line, it changes to 1 point less for each successive drop in score. This happens for all 6 tables and scores are totalled up.
    We do this for 8 weeks, with your lowest week total being dropped off.
    Top 24 players are Division A
    Next 24 are Division B
    Next 24 are Division C
    And finally everyone else is Division D.
    Top three in each division playoffs get cash prizes, with A getting bigger prizes than B, B bigger than C, etc.
    For league, I've liked this system because in the playoffs I'm competing against similarly skilled players.
    For stand alone tournaments, if there were a handicap system in place, I may compete more. I don't bother now, because I know I can't beat the top guys.

    Maybe a double post, but oh well. Twice in 2015, the top ranked player in AZ put on a pingolf event. He went through the state rankings and created formulas for handicaps for the top 40ish players and others who might also participate. It was actually pretty generous with only ~5 players being considered scratch. At the time I was ranked 9th in state, but had a handicap of 10 or 11. Ranked ~1400 and rated ~1280 in IFPA is where that came from. Then, there were two sets of trophies, one for the scratch scores and another set for the handicapped factored scores. Good events, but a fair amount of extra work for the TD.

    #15 8 years ago
    Quoted from DNO:

    The league I run, and most I have seen, DO have this.
    You play, then are grouped the following week against players that had similar results.
    If you do well, you move up. If you do bad, you go down.
    For the league finals (tonight!), the top 16 finishers play "A" division, and the rest (19 players) play "B"
    That takes all the really good players out of the tourney for the casual/funtime players.
    "A" division has more cash prizes to win, but it is nice for the "B" players to play a tourney for good cash ($600+!) and not have to deal with the usual "ringers".

    One of my goals is to allow casual players and "ringers" to play competitively together, whether it be in a team format or head to head. If you don't have a good mechanism for doing that, the league winds up being divided, acting more like 2-3 leagues playing in the same place on the same night but not together. For example it wasn't until after my first season at Lyons was concluded, that I met people at other events without realizing I was indirectly competing against them in the same league season. It's really awkward, and would never happen in a team based setting, or a league with mechanisms for random pairings.

    The bubble up/down system also lacks rating stability... as a middle-of-the-road player, I'll wind up bouncing top to bottom during a season because of my inconsistency (that factor that segregates the best from the rest), and the result is it's not not fair for the beginners to play me, and it's not fair for me to be on level ground with the top 100 players in the world.

    #16 8 years ago

    Sometimes I feel handicapped when playing pinball.

    #17 8 years ago
    Quoted from o-din:

    Sometimes I feel handicapped when playing pinball.

    Sometimes?

    #18 8 years ago

    One of the differences between pinball and other games/sports is the random factor. Most games/sports have a higher skill to random ratio than pinball. It's the randomness of top players having houseballs/bad breaks/etc that makes things interesting and gives less skilled players a chance to win on a given game.

    I'm not opposed to people trying to introduce a handicap system as long as it increases the fun factor for all involved. That's the important part. I just think pinball has enough of a built-in handicap in the form of game randomness, especially as you go farther back into SS and EM machines.

    #19 8 years ago
    Quoted from Damonator:

    I know I would be more interested in competing in tournaments or playing in a local league if there was something like this in place. I simply don't bother to play in tournaments now because I know I can't win.

    I was the same way, but also impatient. Seeing people waiting around for hours to have a turn further pushed me away. I do really enjoy the social aspect of pinball collecting. I recently decided to enter more tournaments so I can meet new pinball friends. My first one was the Houston arcade show and I had a great time.

    #20 8 years ago
    Quoted from sleethering:

    One of the differences between pinball and other games/sports is the random factor. Most games/sports have a higher skill to random ratio than pinball. It's the randomness of top players having houseballs/bad breaks/etc that makes things interesting and gives less skilled players a chance to win on a given game.
    I'm not opposed to people trying to introduce a handicap system as long as it increases the fun factor for all involved. That's the important part. I just think pinball has enough of a built-in handicap in the form of game randomness, especially as you go farther back into SS and EM machines.

    Originally I thought that randomness was something that would make pinball handicaps difficult, but when I ran stats this is just not the case... better players consistently outscore lesser players, and the difference in score is directly proportional to the difference in skill.

    On the surface, pool or tennis or basketball look like pure skill sports, but that ignores unexpected moves by a direct opponent. In pinball you have no direct opponent as such, but you get similar unexpected moves from bad bounces in the game, and better players are better at recovering from those bad bounces. It's also why pool, tennis and basketball tournaments tend to be "best of x" matches rather than single game matches. Pinball should be treated the same.

    #21 8 years ago

    I personally would have no interest in handicapping or team play. It makes the game more about whether each player is playing better than their average rather than directly competing against your opponent. I can occasionally beat a much higher ranked player and it's a thrill. Winning a match because they only beat my score by 30% or something would give me zero satisfaction.

    #22 8 years ago

    I got into pinball just two years ago and decided to join the local league last year. We just started last week for our first session this year and we had for the first time 19 players (usually have 12 -16) but we just write names down on tickets and draw teams, so A players end up against B-C-D players thus in three sessions of 8 weeks of league play I probably average 16 points while the A players I am sure average in the mid 30's. It does get a little frustrating but you know what just try to get better at it. The A players are definitely better than I am but I find that it is not because of my control of the ball but rather my knowledge of the pin. I am 64 years old and do not have the time and experience on the machines that most A players have. I have only been playing for two years (took it up as a hobby) but I do feel especially in a small league that handicapping would be futile, it just would not work.

    #23 8 years ago
    Quoted from DefaultGen:

    I personally would have no interest in handicapping or team play. It makes the game more about whether each player is playing better than their average rather than directly competing against your opponent. I can occasionally beat a much higher ranked player and it's a thrill. Winning a match because they only beat my score by 30% or something would give me zero satisfaction.

    Handicapping is more about rewarding consistency. Those rare big wins will still be there, and will be just as rewarding, and if you continue to win consistently with a handicap you will move up until you can no longer win consistently, at which point you settle in to a true ranking. A handicap system is a more stable ranking system than a standard league uses when they try to match like players because you're no longer moving up and down each week, it takes a series of of wins to move up, and a series of losses to move down. In this respect, an A player would not only win most of the time, but win most of the time with a handicap against him. That's a whole other level above what is offered now. A player that can beat the majority of players the majority of the time but struggles with a handicap would be considered a B player, a differentiation that wouldn't otherwise be as obvious.

    What I see around town is the A players regularly bowing out of competitions either because there isn't enough competition at an event, and/or the event doesn't offer enough WPPR points to make a difference in their IFPA ranking. It's a catch-22, because A players are what increase the point value in a competition. A handicap system should increase interest in the competitive aspect of even the smallest competition to challenge themselves, even if the point value isn't attractive, the result of which increases the value of the competition for everyone. It's a positive feedback loop.

    #24 8 years ago

    The P1 needs to beat P2 by X% is basically a multiplier. Should an A level player be able to beat a D level player by a factor of 2? It really will depend on the game and its setup.

    For example, take a game like Fast Draw with a potential triple bonus on the last ball. In a player A versus D battle where A needs to win by 2x D's score, this it the equivalent of D having the potential for scoring essentially 6x bonus on the last ball, never mind that everything else has been effectively doubled.

    Similar analogies to apply to modern games with playfield multipliers. In an A versus D match on ACDC, if the D level player simply achieves 2x playfield scoring, it is the equivalent of 4x scoring, 6x with 3x running. In Stern's Star Trek, all combos are automatically at 4x instead of 2x. However, the saving grace is that the D player probably won't be able to capitalize on massive scores most of the time.

    In general, the multiplier probably works better on modern games where there are more opportunities for the A player to break open the score. In older games, with lower scoring chances, the lower ranked player will probably be at an advantage if given a multiplier.

    #25 8 years ago
    Quoted from pinballcorpse:

    The P1 needs to beat P2 by X% is basically a multiplier. Should an A level player be able to beat a D level player by a factor of 2? It really will depend on the game and its setup.

    Here is the breakdown by era:

    EM (6 unique titles)
    A beat B's by 123%, C's by 149%, and D's by 180%.
    B beat C's by 127%, and D's by 150%
    C beat D's by 121%

    Solid State (4 unique titles)
    A beat B's by 163%, C's by 323%, and D's by 332%.
    B beat C's by 169%, and D's by 247%
    C beat D's by 173%

    90's DMD (5 unique titles)
    A beat B's by 244%, C's by 352%, and D's by 954%.
    B beat C's by 149%, and D's by 305%
    C beat D's by 236%

    Modern DMD (10 unique titles)
    A beat B's by 196%, C's by 269%, and D's by 447%.
    B beat C's by 141%, and D's by 256%
    C beat D's by 203%

    You can see that SS/DMD scores show unquestioned scoring dominance of upper tier players relative to lower tier players, so my initial proposed differentials were more in line with EM differentials. In other words, it's just giving the lesser players a shred hope that they have a chance, while not impacting the end result unless the better player is having a bad night AND the worse player is having a great night.

    You have any remaining concern about your ability to beat D's by 190% score?

    #26 8 years ago

    It seems not many people are familiar with handicaps at all, so I have other a couple other examples to share, this one being hypothetical, but easy to understand.

    Lets say you are a rec-league basketball player and Michael Jordan is in your league, matches are 1-on-1, race to 21 points. You will likely struggle to get any points on MJ and MJ will get bored of beating you, making you wonder why he bothers to be in the league, but he is older now and wants some exercise. One day he approaches you and says, "I'll spot you 10 points", so Jordan needs to score 21 points before you score 10. That makes it a little more interesting for both of you, no? There is also a former collegiate level starter in the league as well, Jordan may spot him 4 points, and if you play the collegiate player he will spot you 6 points. Therein is the mechanism to make each match of this mixed league more competitive for everyone involved regardless of opponent or skill level.

    Earlier I stated that I didn't want to drastically change the overall outcomes of each match, but the more I thought about it the more I don't think it's the right way to go. A truly competitive handicap system tries to even out matches such that if you are playing at your correct level your win ratio will be closer to 50%. If you are consistently exceeding, say a 60% win ratio with your assigned handicap it's probably time for you to move into the next, more competitive, bracket, and if you are losing more than 40% you should move down to improve your win percentage. The next example is going to be tougher to illustrate but wanted to give another real world example of an accepted handicap.

    #27 8 years ago

    Historical note: in its early days, PAPA was pushing the Points Efficiency Per Game Average (PEPGA). I'd like to see some commentary on it compared to the other proposals in this thread.
    .................David Marston

    #28 8 years ago

    For years I've been playing a board game called Go, but primarily online with people around the world. Most of you won't know the game, but it's been around for 2000 years and as popular in Asia as Chess is in Europe and the states. The standard board is a 19x19 grid and each player in turn places stones to claim territory, the player with the most surrounded areas wins.

    It's an extremely competitive game across the world, and professional players are highly revered in Asia. The interesting thing is that unlike Chess no one has been successful programming a computer that can beat the best Go player in the world. Kids with high aptitude for the game are sent to institutes, and there are volumes of books on strategies. This also means that the game has a wide variance of skill levels.

    You can think of a Go handicap system as 40 notch ladder which covers both professional and amateur ranks, grouped as follows:

    30–20k - Beginner
    19–10k - Casual player
    9–1k - Intermediate amateur
    1–7d - Advanced amateur
    1–9p - Professional player

    Once individual ratings are established players can play each other and handicaps are implemented in the form of the lower ranked player gets to make up to 9 moves before the better player gets to make one. It's a substantial disadvantage to higher ranked players to compensate for pre-moves, and alters strategy from defensive to offensive, but a on level playing field a separation of only 5 ranks is too much, the better player will win every time. The handicap system provides a great way for local Go clubs to pit players against each other of different skill levels because it's not easy to find a substantial number of opponents at one's own level. In this case it mimics the 60/40 rule... if you are winning more often than losing you're going to move up the ladder, and if you are losing more often than not your rating is going to drop.

    Ultimately what it means is world rankings are only renevalt for, say the top 100 players, and everyone else is rated using only this handicap system. I see pinball as in the same boat, the vast majority of players will benefit from a handicap rating rather than a IFPA ranking, and competitions will improve as a result.

    #29 8 years ago

    The biggest thing with handicapping individual games is the volatility of game scoring (as Jeff mentioned). It's impossible to create a handicapping system that works for all games with the vast breadth of games with linear scoring versus those games with more dynamic scoring opportunities.

    As far as PEPGA goes (PAPA's handicapping system back in the day), it developed a handicap based on league points earned, so the outcome of each game was normalized no matter what the game played happened to be.

    You can check out the old Flipside magazine (http://legacy.papa.org/flipside/v1i1.pdf) page 18 has some league standings from 1992 with the PEPGA averages for each player during the season.

    This would lend itself towards handicapping a group of players in a league by comparing their performance versus their expected performance.

    If there's a 40 game season, and Steve Epstein has a PEPGA of 5.33, there's an expectation that 213.20 would be his season total.

    You could then look at Tim Post who had a PEPGA of 3.56, and there would be an expectation that 142.40 would be his season total.

    PAPA could then use PEPGA to declare Tim the 'handicapped' winner of the season if he finished with 150 points, while Steve finished with 215 points.

    #30 8 years ago

    To me it seems a little too much of participation awards and stuff like that.

    I guess I understand your point that you're trying to lower players to feel good aboot themselves by artificially beating a better opponent, and thus getting them excited aboot participating, but it just seems hollow to me.

    #31 8 years ago

    To me all the fun would be gone from competing. Had to deal with handicapping most years when I used to bowl and hated it. I prefer to win and lose in a reality based system. If I want to win more I need to improve my skills. I can take a serious beating and walk away with a smile on my face so I might be a little different than those who prefer a handicapped system.

    #32 8 years ago

    Life has it's own built-in handicap system.

    winlose_(resized).jpgwinlose_(resized).jpg

    #33 8 years ago

    I have a very hard time understanding why someone would be proud of themselves for beating a "crippled" opponent, or why that's an "achievement" people should strive for.

    #34 8 years ago
    Quoted from BangBackula:

    I have a very hard time understanding why someone would be proud of themselves for beating a "crippled" opponent, or why that's an "achievement" people should strive for.

    1. I've never said this before but; nice name

    2. And I find it even worse the other way. Unless you're socially crippled (somewhat common), Higher tier players are always super nice and helpful to lower tier players. If a D player has an equal chance of beating me, it may cause some friction. Like, I'm going to put a thumping on you, not let up, and try to mentally scar you.
    Not to mention this won't be saving any time because I have to play Johnny D pants and score a 1.7b+ on Congo.

    #35 8 years ago

    Thanks, Law.

    I just want to point out, I'm not trying to be rude. I really just don't understand. Like you said, I guess it's to get more people participating. I don't get the point in upping participation though if it changes the game to something it didn't start as.

    #36 8 years ago
    Quoted from Baiter:

    For years I've been playing a board game called Go, but primarily online with people around the world. Most of you won't know the game, but it's been around for 2000 years and as popular in Asia as Chess is in Europe and the states.

    Do I get double extra bonus points for knowing the game? Became familiar with it when I was growing up because I read about it in the novel Shibumi by Trevanian.

    Wow...that was a long time ago...

    #37 8 years ago

    I developed a handicap system for pinball with the following features:

    - players have a handicap from 0 (no handicap) to 100 (max)
    - games have a variance rating from 1 to 10 (to account for different scoring games)
    - a spreadsheet calculates the "Handicap Score" versus the original score per person/game
    --- Original Score -> apply handicap values -> resulting "Handicap Score"
    - the handicap scores are then used for ANY format of tournament/league scoring
    --- This works for PinGolf, PinBowling, Papa style, 4-3-2-1, etc.

    This is an important aspect when trying to have leagues include spouses or players that aren't close in skill - to make it fun for all.
    This approach requires math and data entry, so a good App/Spreadsheet is important or people won't want to use it. I've been planning on making a phone or web app, but haven't had time.

    We have also used what Dino suggested (in tournaments) -> Categorized players as A, B, C and higher mismatched players have to "plunge only" 1 ball per mismatch level:
    - A-B plunge 1
    - A-C plunge 2
    - B-C plunge 1

    This second approach is simple, and effective

    IMO official rankings should only be used for very rough estimates for handicapping (like A/B/C). They are not accurate enough for skill levels because they are very dependent on tournament participation. In a repeating local league, it would be much better to use internal data (from the league) to determine handicaps - because you can determine comparative skill levels much more accurately regardless of tournament participation.

    #38 8 years ago
    Quoted from BangBackula:

    I have a very hard time understanding why someone would be proud of themselves for beating a "crippled" opponent, or why that's an "achievement" people should strive for.

    Lets put it another way. If you play in a league you are likely already under a handicap system, so if you don't like handicaps on principle, maye you should be lobbying to get rid of it in your league. If you find value in it, then why not explore options that will make it even more valuable?

    #39 8 years ago
    Quoted from beelzeboob:

    Do I get double extra bonus points for knowing the game?

    Not if you've ever watched "Pi."

    Quoted from Baiter:

    Lets put it another way. If you play in a league you are likely already under a handicap system, so if you don't like handicaps on principle, maye you should be lobbying to get rid of it in your league. If you find value in it, then why not explore options that will make it even more valuable?

    Hmm...I'm not quite catching your meaning here. Or you're saying it's handicapping people when they are put in the groups of their standings? Casue that's kind of a stretch for me.

    #40 8 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Not if you've ever watched "Pi."

    Nope. So HOORAY! I get double extra bonus points!

    #41 8 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    To me it seems a little too much of participation awards and stuff like that.
    I guess I understand your point that you're trying to lower players to feel good aboot themselves by artificially beating a better opponent, and thus getting them excited aboot participating, but it just seems hollow to me.

    A hollow victory to me is an A player defeating a beginner, in which there is little satisfaction on either side unless the beginner chalks it up their entry fee as a tutoring fee. I think you can agree to this, and agree that leagues and tournaments include players from all skill levels. My stated goal is to increase competitiveness across the board. If an A player has to beat a beginner 4 games to 2, the match is now more meaningful to both sides, effectively eliminating the hollow victories that occur without a handicap.

    #42 8 years ago
    Quoted from Baiter:

    Lets put it another way. If you play in a league you are likely already under a handicap system, so if you don't like handicaps on principle, maye you should be lobbying to get rid of it in your league. If you find value in it, then why not explore options that will make it even more valuable?

    I've played in many leagues. Where I live, I have options about different leagues I can play in. I don't play in leagues when handicapping is involved. I've never seen the point in it.

    I'd rather not participate than ask people to change the way things are run because I don't agree with it.

    #43 8 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Hmm...I'm not quite catching your meaning here. Or you're saying it's handicapping people when they are put in the groups of their standings? Casue that's kind of a stretch for me.

    That's is what I'm saying. Lets say your league ranks all players and puts them in groups relative to their league ranking. In a 32 player league it means player #1 has to compete against players #2-4, while #32 only has to compete against players ranked #29 or lower, making the path to victories easier for #32 than it is for the top seed. #1's is handicapped because they don't get the benefit of easy wins by including beginners in their matches (average opponent should be #16 or so but is actually #2-3). Don't get me wrong that system works great to rank the overall league, but it reduces the value of the league as a venue for socialization and learning, when people in the same league may never match up against each other.

    #44 8 years ago
    Quoted from Baiter:

    My stated goal is to increase competitiveness across the board. If an A player has to beat a beginner 4 games to 2, the match is now more meaningful to both sides, effectively eliminating the hollow victories that occur without a handicap.

    I understand what you're saying and your point, but I can't get on board with it. BUT we're coming at it from diff'rent angles, you want to increase all players, and that's not important to me. So I appreciate what you're trying to do, but just trying to pick out some things I see as the problem areas.

    If I'm playing in my local tourney let's say, and there are basically 4 top 100 players, I have to sit there and wait for them to play 4 games of GOT or Congo or or similar? Time alone is going to exponentially increase isn't it?

    EDIT: Above I wrote as you were writing...reading your post now.
    Ok Yep that's what I thought you meant by handicapping...and that's what I see as a stretch calling it that. Techincally it is, but it's not the same handicap as having to beat player 4 to 2 games etc. (well to me anyway )

    #45 8 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    I understand what you're saying and your point, but I can't get on board with it. BUT we're coming at it from diff'rent angles, you want to increase all players, and that's not important to me.

    If you like tournaments, increasing participation should be important to you because it increases the tournament pot.

    #46 8 years ago
    Quoted from Baiter:

    If you like tournaments, increasing participation should be important to you because it increases the tournament pot.

    Let's be clear that the increase in participation is happening on the tournament scene already. It's debatable how much of an impact a handicapping system would actually have on increasing attendance (especially because handicapped events wouldn't be endorsed by the IFPA).

    Here's the last 5 years worth of players that have played in at least 1 IFPA event for that given year:

    2011 --> 6179 players
    2012 --> 7658 (up 24%)
    2013 --> 9819 (up 28%)
    2014 --> 13,329 (up 36%)
    2015 --> 16,385 (up 23%)

    I wish I could show a chart of income growth like that to my boss

    #47 8 years ago
    Quoted from Baiter:

    If you like tournaments, increasing participation should be important to you because it increases the tournament pot.

    So would there be a handicap before we play each other, in qualifying?

    #48 8 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Let's be clear that the increase in participation is happening on the tournament scene already. It's debatable...

    What I debate is how much is real in that scenario. If you get more points for more people in an event, then events give away more entries for just walking in the door. Then Johnny nobody plays a game and leaves, he's marked as another attendee and the whole thing is a little sketchy.

    #49 8 years ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    What I debate is how much is real in that scenario. If you get more points for more people in an event, then events give away more entries for just walking in the door. Then Johnny nobody plays a game and leaves, he's marked as another attendee and the whole thing is a little sketchy.

    If Johnny nobody plays a game and leaves, he has no impact on the value of that event or the points distributed in that event.

    Only "Rated" players impact tournament values and point distributions (rated being having played in at least 5 IFPA endorsed events).

    So Johnny could do that every year for 5 years . . . and on the 6th year he would count.

    Prior to 2015 the number of people had nothing to do with the value of an event, the base vale was the same for all events (25 points).

    But it's possible most of our growth isn't real, you never truly know

    Updated for growth based on players that have played at least one event over the preceding 3 years:

    2015 (up 29%)
    2014 (up 24%)
    2013 (up 24%)
    2012 (up 23%)
    2011 (up 48%)

    #50 8 years ago

    Awesome, thanks for the clarification. I should have asked instead of Assuming.

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