(Topic ID: 191646)

Tilt Immediately at game start but no stuck switches??


By cjs001

2 years ago



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  • Latest reply 2 years ago by terryb
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#1 2 years ago

I just got the game up and running a couple days ago, '78 playboy, and was playing fine. Last night a tilt issue arouse, when you push the start button, it does the start up music, resets the drop targets, does not kick the ball out of the out-hole and immediately lights up tilt. Like I said it was playing fine for the last two days, in switch test no switches are showing stuck on. In all the other examples I could find online with this issue normally the switch test would show something then leading you to suspect diode or the capacitor on the plumb bob tilt. In switch test if I manually close each tilt switch they register as closed so they appear to be working. Any suggestions to likely culprit? Thank you in advance for guidance.

#3 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

If you disconnect the wire/capacitor lug from the lower ring around the plumb-bob, does the tilt problem go away?

Just tried that and no change.

#5 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

What happens if you remove the ball from the outhole and start a game - does it still tilt?

Bingo. Kicked the ball out manually then pushed start botton, game started and fired out hole coil. Then as soon as ball drained and pushed down the out hole switch tilt happened. So what is the cause of this and what do I need to do to remedy it? Thanks so much again.

#7 2 years ago

I did not do any tinkering with it. Just been playing it since finishing it Friday. No phantom switches that I've noticed during game play. Had been working and acting normal until this error. I have some 1n4004 diodes I'll just replace that one on the out hole switch and see if that fixes it. There were just couple capacitors I didn't replace on a couple targets bc they were still in tact but new capacitors everywhere else under playfield that had the old ones cut out at some point. I'll report back once I address that one diode and know results. Thanks

#8 2 years ago

okay, I changed out the diode on the kick out and no change. Found if i manually separate the leaf switch on the kick out it fires the coil and pushes the ball to the shooter lane. Used ohm meter and checked the other diodes in the matrix with the kick out they appeared to be okay. I went around and manually triggered things in the play field and found that if I push the top right pop bumper it does not fire but it causes the top left to fire instead. Everything else in the play field is working accordingly. Looked underneath and didn't find anything shorting or touching where it shouldn't. The top right bumper and bottom bumper both have the old capacitors, top left was missing one so I put a new one on it. Could it just be the capacitor causing that effect? Also I am confused, if I use my ohm meter to check a diode out of circuit, putting black lead on the diode side with the strip and the red lead on the opposite I get a reading of roughly 600 (1N4004), my meter doesn't give a decimal reading. Now if I check a diode on a coil in circuit, leads on same sides as stated of diode, my ohm meter buzzes like its a short, is that normal? Its doing that on all the coils. Checking the diodes on switches I get the roughly 600 reading and no buzz.

#10 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Do both of these upper pop bumpers report the correct respective switch number in switch test mode? Are the solenoids for these activating in correct order in solenoid test mode?
If you disconnect the capacitors from the pop bumpers does the tilt issue go away?
Another thing to try is to start a game and then carefully disconnect the J3 cable from the MPU board live (this disconnects the cabinet switches), does the tilt still activate when the ball goes in the outhole?

They activate in the correct order during solenoid test. However in switch test top right and left bumper register #39 which is the assigned number for the right bumper. Get #39 also when just depressing the left bumper.

I clipped the capacitor from the right one and no change, the left has a new one on it. Bottom one is an old one. I didn't try removing the other two yet.

I started a game, then removed J3 from mpu, the ball did kick out when I did that, but after the ball went back into the out hole tilt came back up and it would not kick the ball back out to the shooter lane. (one time after the ball went back into the outhole with J3 disconnected it did kick the ball back out to shooter lane, but only once)

#12 2 years ago
Quoted from Superchicken:

How about the lift tilt ball above the pendulum? Remove it and make sure the switch at the end isn't triggering a tilt.

checked that with ohm meter in continuity to make sure none of the tilts were "activated". Diodes on the tilts also checked okay with ohm meter.

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from Plunger069:

Did you replace any bulbs recently? I had the same symptoms on a Bally Embryon and it turned out to be a grounded light socket.

I replaced all lights to LEDs, with the led adapter on the lamp board, but they were all in place Friday when I finished the game. Maybe something shifting with game play. How did you go about finding that problem bulb?

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

In switch test mode:
Does the grotto switch report as 32 or 31?
Does the left flipper return lane switch report 24 or 23?
What resistance do you measure with your ohm meter between the orange wire at the left flipper return lane switch and the brown-white wire on the left outlane switch?
If you want to follow plunger069 light socket theory, remove the F1 fuse from the rectifier board so the feature lamps no longer have power.

This just seems to get worse.
Took out F1 fuse real quick that did not fix the problem.
Wasn't fully sure what I was suppose to do for measuring the resistance of the wire on the switch for those lanes. I put the meter on 200ohm, and put one lead on the orange wire at the switch and the other lead on the other end of the wire at the MPU, meter read 0.5. I got the same reading doing the same thing for the brown-white wire.
Did the switch test and went through all the switches and there is more then one problem child apparently.
Switch / Registered / Assigned Number
Outhole 7 / 8
Slam 2 (on coin door) 15 / 16
Flipper Lane (L and R) 23 / 24
Grotto 31 / 32
Left bumper 39 / 40

Left bumper fires when the right bumper switch is closed, and the right bumper does not fire.

And again all the coils during solenoid test fire and fire in the correct sequence.
Page 21 for switch assembly self test
http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/1823/Bally_1978_Playboy_Manual.pdf

#20 2 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

The problems you are encountering in switch test are indicating you have shorted capacitors under the playfield, possibly more than one. Clip all the ones associated with the switch numbers displaying multiple closures then retest.

I just ended up disconnected at least one leg of every capacitor. The three bumpers, 5 stand up targets, 5th key stand up target. No change to the issue.

#21 2 years ago
Quoted from gregh:

If I may suggest, quickly check the diode on the slam tilt switch. I have had a couple touching the coin door resulting in the issues you are having. Our local bally expert recently showed me this and said it's a fairly common issue.

Diode was not touching the door. I did notice that some solder from the one leaf was touching the bracket that hold the switch in place, cleaned that up but no change.

#23 2 years ago
Quoted from DNO:

My Bally Skateball had a tilting issue that was similar.
It ended up being one of the coin switches on the door was stuck.
Easy to check, at least worth a look.

Just un-soldered the wires to those and still no change.
When I removed the one switch it did start the game and kick the ball out to shooter lane but then when ball went back to out hole it tilted. And further attempts to start a game failed with the ball not kicking out and an immediate tilt.

#24 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Put one meter lead on the orange wire, and the other meter lead on the brown-white wire and measure the resistance between them - your symptoms appear to show a short between these two switch return lines.
Can you post a clear picture of the J2 cable connector at the MPU board?

When I put the meter on those two wires at the role over switch I get no reading. You do mean to put a lead on each wore that is plastic covered in picture correct?
(MPU has all new header pins and I did check with ohm meter when I did them to assure no bridges betweens pins)

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#26 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

1) Remove the ball from the outhole and play a ball. Rack up a bunch of bonus. Then drop the ball in the outhole. The game will tilt *BUT* does the game silently countdown the bonus - i.e has it recognised that the outhole switch has closed?

Okay so I booted up the game did your test and the game worked normal, all switches operating normal, the right pop bumper working normal, flipper lanes scored appropriately (not adding the additional 1000 points). Test it for a couple games. Then decided to try and actually play, when I lost the ball in play it tilted and from there on out all problems back. So starting a game with the ball out of outhole, I manually racked up a bunch of points on the bonus, the ball immediately tilts entering out hole. The game silently processed the bonus's but did not add the score to the display, just did the cycle of lights around the bonus, proceeded to reset the drop targets then stop there. again if i manually separate the out hole switch the ball gets kicked out.

Quoted from Quench:

1)2) In switch test mode, do the switches on row return line 6 report correctly? i.e. tilt switch = 07, left outlane = 23, 5000 arrow lane = 31?

The tilt pendulum, ball tilt, and playfield tilt all register 7
Left Out lane registers 23 (so do the flipper return lanes)
5000 arrow registers 31 (so does grotto switch)

Quoted from Quench:

1)3) Disconnect the J2 connector from the MPU board (so the playfield switches are all disconnected). Power up the game and go to the switch test. If you activate the slam tilt switch on the front door, does it report as 16 or 15? This will hint at whether the problem is on the playfield or the MPU board.

With the connector removed the door slam and the slam next to the pendulum both register 15.

Quoted from Quench:

1)I see your MPU board has suffered from battery corrosion.

Below is the post I started when I acquired the game, you can see what the board looked like when I got it. My first board repair/revival, but looking like it still has issues. The discolored solder on the components yet was caused from the toilet bowl acid I used to get the corrosion off. I'll post a couple more pics of the board all done with the components replaced.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-playboy-mpu-repairable#post-3539539
U10/11 were resocketed and chips are original ( I have replacements on hand)
U8 resocketed and chip replaced
U14 replaced
U9 Original socket and chip (I have the items on hand resocket it and I have replacement chips for U9)
Did the battery acid damage kit from great plains, and did several other components beyond that kit that were not included.
I did not replace the dip switches but have them on hand if deemed needed to replace
When I finished the chips that I did resocket or replace I did check for continuity to the next component from each leg. All new header pins and all wires have new crimp terminals.

#27 2 years ago

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#29 2 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

You may have given up to easily. Was there a cap on the outhole switch or the two tilt switches? I would remove those and retest.
The caps are a notorious problem and when I get a new Bally game now, my first step is to just remove them all. Then, I install new ones where needed (the only place I find they actually help are standup targets). Curse Bally for even using them at all!

the only cap that is still connected (forgot about that one last night when I removed all the ones from under the playfield) is on the plum bob tilt, I'll clip that and try again.

#30 2 years ago
Quoted from snyper2099:

You may have given up to easily. Was there a cap on the outhole switch or the two tilt switches? I would remove those and retest.
The caps are a notorious problem and when I get a new Bally game now, my first step is to just remove them all. Then, I install new ones where needed (the only place I find they actually help are standup targets). Curse Bally for even using them at all!

Just went and clipped that last capacitor. And no cigar, immediate tilt atgame start.

#35 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

So the problem still existed when you disconnected the cabinet switch harness (post #10) and also the playfield switch harness (post #26). Looks like the issue is on your MPU board.
Do me a favour, put all 32 dip switches on the MPU board in the OFF position and tell us if the problem goes away. The dip switches on the MPU board are electrically a part of the entire switch matrix.

Turned off the the dip switches. Booted the game without the ball in the out hole. Went into switch test. Everything worked normal and switches numbered correctly. Turned game off, put ball in outhole, rebooted tried to start a game, immediate tilt and all associated issues stated before back. Turned game off, removed ball, rebooted, went to switch test and all issues present, miss numbered switches and the pop number issue. Yesterday it worked 100% normal for a couple minutes when I was testing your suggestions but then it reverted to its issues. Tonight or tomorrow at latest I can pull out MPU and swap out u10/11 with diff chips and try that. Could the old socket on U9 cause any of this? Not sure what functions U9 services. Thanks again for all the guidance.

#37 2 years ago
Quoted from terryb:

You've got some suspect solder joints and voids on the board (circled in red). On the two areas circled in blue the pad/through-hole appears to have been damaged and there does not appear to be a physical connection between the component and the trace. Obviously you could have a jumper on the other side of the board. I won't guarantee I caught everything, getting old and the eyesight's not as good as it used to be, especially on a monitor for some reason.
Also there appears to be a lot of corrosion that hasn't been addressed. Around the dip switches for example.

I'll try to fill those voids in you pointed out. Any tips for getting the solder to stick on the top side. When I tried before it would stick on the top side and would keep flowing to the backside of the board creating a large solder bludge I'd have to clean up. I did check continuity from each component when I did the work, to the next component. The solder around the dip switches got discolored when I used the toilet bowl acid method for removing the corrosion. That picture is deceiving and makes it look like corrosion.

#39 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Unlikely to be the U9 socket. U9 is the CPU. Problems there would be much more severe.
You probably have some sort of resistive short between switch return line 6 and 7 on the MPU board so it might be worth taking some measurements and compare readings to other switch return lines (results should all be the same).
Leave all 32 dip switches OFF. Power the machine on and get it in failure mode - leave it powered on a few extra minutes.
Then power the machine off, and remove connector J2 and J3 from the MPU board.
Set your multimeter to 200k ohms mode and measure the resistance between:
a) J3 pin 16 and J3 pin 15 (i.e. one meter lead on pin 16, the other meter lead on pin 15)
b) J3 pin 13 and J3 pin 12
c) J3 pin 10 and J3 pin 9
Are all results the same or is the first measurement lower?
Now measure the resistance between these signals on the 6820 PIA chip at U10 between:
d) pin 17 and pin 16 (i.e. one meter lead on pin 17, the other meter lead on pin 16)
e) pin 14 and pin 13
f) pin 11 and pin 10
Are all results the same or is the first measurement is lower?
Report all the readings.
For reference, two of my boards on the bench measure around 95k-100k ohms at all these locations.
Similar to terryb's comment, I'd probably suspect conductive corrosive residue between pins under the dip switch blocks - see pic below:

In your opinion would it be better for me to remove that dip switch, do any cleaning that is needed and install a new one then proceed with the tests you mentioned. Or do your test first?

#42 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Do the tests first. Would be nice to diagnose and see if you can measure an anomaly.

Okay. I'll be able to do those test this afternoon and will report back.

#43 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Unlikely to be the U9 socket. U9 is the CPU. Problems there would be much more severe.
You probably have some sort of resistive short between switch return line 6 and 7 on the MPU board so it might be worth taking some measurements and compare readings to other switch return lines (results should all be the same).
Leave all 32 dip switches OFF. Power the machine on and get it in failure mode - leave it powered on a few extra minutes.
Then power the machine off, and remove connector J2 and J3 from the MPU board.
Set your multimeter to 200k ohms mode and measure the resistance between:
a) J3 pin 16 and J3 pin 15 (i.e. one meter lead on pin 16, the other meter lead on pin 15)
b) J3 pin 13 and J3 pin 12
c) J3 pin 10 and J3 pin 9
Are all results the same or is the first measurement lower?
Now measure the resistance between these signals on the 6820 PIA chip at U10 between:
d) pin 17 and pin 16 (i.e. one meter lead on pin 17, the other meter lead on pin 16)
e) pin 14 and pin 13
f) pin 11 and pin 10
Are all results the same or is the first measurement is lower?
Report all the readings.
For reference, two of my boards on the bench measure around 95k-100k ohms at all these locations.
Similar to terryb's comment, I'd probably suspect conductive corrosive residue between pins under the dip switch blocks - see pic below:

Okay have the measurements and clearly a set from each one area are off. It also took the game 3-5 min before it finally started its issues after I booted it up.
Meter set at 200kohm
In the order of your request:
A: j3 16&15. 4.0
B: j3 13&12. 103.1
C: j3 11&10. 103.7
D: u10 17&16 1.1-1.4 (fluxuated a lot)
E: u10 14&13 100.1
F: u10 11&10. 102.7

#45 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Excellent, that definitely shows a resistive short between switch return line 6 and 7 on the MPU board which explains your problem.
First off try swapping the two 6820 PIA chips around at U10 and U11 and see if it makes any difference.
Regardless of whether the PIA swap works, you will need to remove, clean the corrosion under the dip switch block area and install new dip switches because this is very much where the problem likely exists or may cause problems in future.

I will have that dip switch taken care of by the end of the weekend likely.
For my understanding: could the short be in the PIA itself or only possible short externally? If it is the chip itself swapping the two around would allow U10 to work correctly but then would there be issues elsewhere since U11 had what may be a bad PIA? Would it be better to swap U10 with a replacement chip instead of swapping? I have 3 spares if I recall. Just trying to fully grasp all this. Thank you so much again. Will report back once the solder work is done and the board is back in the game.

#48 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

There's a tiny possibility the short is inside the PIA - that's why I mentioned changing it just in case. Install a spare since you have them. U10 is the one controlling the switches.
I suggest you deal with all four of those dip switch blocks. You can remove and clean the area first and then test it without the dip switches if you don't have any on hand (they'll simply all be detected as Off).
When you remove the switches, take some photos of the PCB area and bottom of the actual switches for our curiosity.
Good luck!

As requested here are some photos of the main suspect dip switch. Underneath it was more like a film that cleaned up, I'm guessing from the acid towlet bowl cleaner and the distilled water didn't rinse it all out.
Out of curiosity can you use the ohm meter to check each dip switch. No idea what I am doing but for the heck of it put meter on 200k ohm and tested each switch on that one and on several I got a reading. Tried it on the new one and I get 0. If anything I did was correct does that suggest the issue may have been within the dip switch?
Getting ready to desolder the next one...

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#50 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

What resistance do you now measure between U10 pins 17&16 ? (you were getting 1.1k - 1.4k when really it should be around 100k)
The problem might be cruft under another switch block if removing this one has made no/little difference to the short.
.

Terry, your input is always appreciated

I am getting 114.9 now at pins 17&16 with the PIA out currently. Still have two more dips to remove.

#52 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

That's a pretty good sign.
Out if interest, what do you measure on the actual PIA chip (pins 17&16) out of circuit?

On original one out of circuit I am getting nothing. Meter just stays at 1.

Have one dip switch to go. I may be able to try it back in game tonight with all dip switches removed.

#54 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

That's what I get - it's probably safe to say it's not the PIA chip at fault.

Drum roll please.... board back in game with out dip switches and it is not faulting. Has been on for a good 10 min. Played two games, did the switch test twice. All switches are showing with their correct number. The right pop bumper if firing again.
Not going to burn the midnight oil, so ill solder in the new dip switches over the weekend. And resolder all the capactiers under the playfield I disconnected. Few more pics of under the other dip switches, the one nearest the top I didn't photo bc it was clean no issues under it.
Will report back once new switches installed.

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#56 2 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Great stuff. Sounds very promising. Those switch block areas on the board definitely needed attention.

Finished cleaning the film off the solder pads and reattached the dip switches. Resistance now at U10 pin 17&16 is right around 100. Booted it up and all appears to be working correctly. No issues in switch test or in gameplay. Have a bottle share here tomorrow so the game will be on for awhile and see some playtime so will report back on how it does. Thank you so much again!!!!

1 week later
#58 2 years ago
Quoted from Raff:

Did u find it easy removing those dip switch's from the board

They didn't give me too much trouble. Flowed some fresh solder on most of the pins then used my hakko to remove the solder. Had to pry gentle even with the legs clearly free to get them to lift of the board, no damage came to the traces/solder pad. So far still working okay since replacing them.

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