(Topic ID: 282308)

Thruster? I just met her!!!: Xenon Restoration

By mrm_4

3 years ago


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#151 3 years ago

So Outside Edge now recommends you spray clear to entire sanded playfield before applying hardtops? For better adhesion? For better binding surface? Perhaps I'm reading that wrong.

I can understand if you want to spray the inserts instead of sanding them, but spraying the entire playfield kinda defeats the whole purpose of a simple hardtop install.

I guess I'd just like to hear why OE feels your hardtop inks failed.

#152 3 years ago
Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

So Outside Edge now recommends you spray clear to entire sanded playfield before applying hardtops? For better adhesion? For better binding surface? Perhaps I'm reading that wrong.
I can understand if you want to spray the inserts instead of sanding them, but spraying the entire playfield kinda defeats the whole purpose of a simple hardtop install.
I guess I'd just like to hear why OE feels your hardtop inks failed.

There’s a specific chemical in the ink that’s an adhesive to the PETG that was removed by the supplier without telling OE. It’s been fixed and OE is taking care of those that were in the lucky batch. It might seem like a lot of people but it was a small print run in comparison to the 1000s that have been put out. But there’s only like 10 people on pinside that I’ve seen have the issue and every one of us has been in talks directly with Bruce and gotten replacements. I think this little slump era for OE is about wrapped up as the last of these are coming out of the wood work.

The clear is to give a better surface to adhere to instead of porous wood. But you don’t have to “clear coat” it like you would clear a restored playfield. I’m using rustoleum 2x and like 3 light coats in one session to just seal it up.

I’m also going to mask the inserts. I have them polished up like glass and I don’t trust clear to not ghost over them as time goes on if I rough them up.

Obviously I’ll capture things as I go with this replacement. I’m about to start the topside tear down. I just can’t seem to stop pushing the start button.

#153 3 years ago

Yeah, I'm not going to try making this look pristine with the clear. The goal is to eliminate as much possible source for failure as I can. I didn't clear my high speed and it's been fine. But with this being the second roll through with this game, I'm willing to try a bit more aggressive approach because I'm honestly just about done with it. I need as few setbacks as possible at this point. I didn't want to hardtop it to begin with which is why I paid someone else to do it.

Tbh I'm a bit undecided on whether I want to clear the inserts or not. I high polished high speed and those came out fine. But EBD is an older game with inserts that lack any sort of texture so I'm not sure. Polishing and taping sounds like much less potential awfulness... I'm rattle can clearing the rest. Eh.

#154 3 years ago
Quoted from mrm_4:

I just can’t seem to stop pushing the start button.

That's what she said!

And I say.

#155 3 years ago

Well that was depressing. Few tear down pics for reference later...

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#156 3 years ago

Well I’m literally posting this while I hold the plastic back.
Heat gun is working great!
I started at the bottom to test the triangle at the apron.

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Got the surface to a little over 200

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And rolled it up!

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Problem is if i let go all the glue will go back on the playfield and I gotta start over. My scissors and paper towels are way over there and my wife is on a call with her job so I’m in limbo until she comes down to help F69BB472-A8B4-490F-B3DC-8A93D839E786 (resized).jpegF69BB472-A8B4-490F-B3DC-8A93D839E786 (resized).jpeg

#157 3 years ago

Ok there’s definitely a “feel” to pull this off with heat. I ended up pulling with one hand and heating with the other learning the speed to pull back as I went, based on the pressure or “let go” of the glue. BAF86840-F066-41CA-8BEA-9AE0520C4205 (resized).jpegBAF86840-F066-41CA-8BEA-9AE0520C4205 (resized).jpeg7EBE4296-B0C8-4D68-894A-0AD8FC3FD864 (resized).jpeg7EBE4296-B0C8-4D68-894A-0AD8FC3FD864 (resized).jpeg
You need the Goldilocks Zone.
If it’s not warm enough and you pull it up, the bed of gummy adhesive will stay down but the art and plastic comes up.

If it’s to WARM the hard top will pull up quickly but random patches of glue stay behind.

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If it gets HOT then the art completely separates from the plastic and leaves it all down.

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It needs to be just warm enough so that it lets go of the playfield but still has grab to the underside of the hardtop.5C7B61C5-0377-4832-9B58-449576E4FA44 (resized).jpeg5C7B61C5-0377-4832-9B58-449576E4FA44 (resized).jpeg48DD072E-9803-4C0A-AD85-DEF1F5C9DEB9 (resized).jpeg48DD072E-9803-4C0A-AD85-DEF1F5C9DEB9 (resized).jpeg

#158 3 years ago

I should say I more or less PUSHED it off by placing my hand on the glue side and then heated the top as I pushed from front to back.

#159 3 years ago

Bottom 1/3 is good. Although I’m worried about the oils from the goo gone not coming out of the wood with naphtha.
Might cause me a problem when I spray clear.

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#160 3 years ago

And to end the evening on a happy note. My service button died on me so I got a tasteful replacement.

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#161 3 years ago
Quoted from mrm_4:

Ok there’s definitely a “feel” to pull this off with heat. I ended up pulling with one hand and heating with the other learning the speed to pull back as I went, based on the pressure or “let go” of the glue. [quoted image][quoted image]
You need the Goldilocks Zone.
If it’s not warm enough and you pull it up, the bed of gummy adhesive will stay down but the art and plastic comes up.
If it’s to WARM the hard top will pull up quickly but random patches of glue stay behind.
[quoted image][quoted image]
If it gets HOT then the art completely separates from the plastic and leaves it all down.
[quoted image][quoted image]
It needs to be just warm enough so that it lets go of the playfield but still has grab to the underside of the hardtop.[quoted image][quoted image]

Namaste...

#162 3 years ago

Your pull looks better than mine, but I didn't try heat or anything. I just pulled it off like a bandaid. Brought almost no art with it. Goo gone and a metal scraper for it all, then I sanded it all down. Is there a reason why you don't want to sand the whole thing?

#163 3 years ago

All things considered, I'd say that technique turned out pretty well. Getting most that adhesive off on the initial pull up is a win.

I used Vid's flour method to get the mylar off on my Mata Hari. You could always give that a try instead of the goo gone.

Nice Boba btw

#164 3 years ago
Quoted from HoakyPoaky:

All things considered, I'd say that technique turned out pretty well. Getting most that adhesive off on the initial pull up is a win.
I used Vid's flour method to get the mylar off on my Mata Hari. You could always give that a try instead of the goo gone.
Nice Boba btw

Long live the Fett-man

i called 3M a little bit ago and talked to a guy in tech support just to see if theres any other secrets they would share. He basically was like "look man, goo gones your best bet" Acetone was the other suggestion but I dont want to suffocate myself half way through this project. He mentioned the 300 degree mark but I got the impression he wasnt suggesting to someone in the public to heat surfaces up to 300 and play with the product.
I might try the flour/alcohol method on a section to compare. I'll dive back into it in a few hours

Quoted from KSUWildcatFan:

Your pull looks better than mine, but I didn't try heat or anything. I just pulled it off like a bandaid. Brought almost no art with it. Goo gone and a metal scraper for it all, then I sanded it all down. Is there a reason why you don't want to sand the whole thing?

As for sanding initially i was going to just sand it all down and decided to go traditional and just stick to the inserts. Now I have these impossible to find inserts in here I dont want to sand them again or do anything to them so Im puss-ing out getting a sander near them.

#165 3 years ago
Quoted from mrm_4:

I might try the flour/alcohol method on a section to compare. I'll dive back into it in a few hours

I found that goo gone (I used a syringe from some pet meds we once used in order to squirt out a decent amount with SOME amount of control, rather than just pouring on to the playfield), and scraped with a metal paint scraper, any residual adhesive came off almost like butter. Cleaning up with naphtha and/or 91% isopropyl alcohol should clean up any leftover mess.

Quoted from mrm_4:

As for sanding initially i was going to just sand it all down and decided to go traditional and just stick to the inserts. Now I have these impossible to find inserts in here I dont want to sand them again or do anything to them so Im puss-ing out getting a sander near them.

Fair point. I'm in insert hell with this EBD, needing to glue four new ones, and then I need to get moving on sanding them either to a high polish or the proper grit so I can clear over them. Not having a rotisserie is really killing my motivation to do much of anything with it.

#166 3 years ago

Ok I’m starting to accept the fact that this thing is going to need to be sanded down regardless of what I try to do to avoid it.

#167 3 years ago
Quoted from mrm_4:

Ok I’m starting to accept the fact that this thing is going to need to be sanded down regardless of what I try to do to avoid it.

Why do you say that?

#168 3 years ago

I don’t know maybe not. I put like half a bottle of naphtha on this thing. I plan on shooting clear tomorrow.

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#169 3 years ago
Quoted from mrm_4:

I don’t know maybe not. I put like half a bottle of naphtha on this thing. I plan on shooting clear tomorrow.
[quoted image]

I think you'll be just fine tbh. Fingers crossed!

#170 3 years ago

Looks like you had good luck removing your hardtop. When I removed mine, it ripped my top layer of plywood. I had to do a ton of repairs.

#171 3 years ago
Quoted from Jenniebear:

Looks like you had good luck removing your hardtop. When I removed mine, it ripped my top layer of plywood. I had to do a ton of repairs.

Ughhhhh I was wondering what ever happened with your shuttle. That sucks! Did you get it finished with a replacement?

#172 3 years ago

I feel like clearcoating was pointless. The craters left from the reaction to the goo gone oils made the surface worse than it if wasn’t clear coated.

This is how you ruin a project

Anyone want to buy a pile of shit xenon?

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#173 3 years ago

You taped the inserts before clear right? Then who cares how pretty it looks. Let it outgas and then slap that thing on. Buffing/wetsanding now should help I'd think. Then maybe another light coat.

Deep breaths, it'll be fine.

I just realized that taping the cleared shooter lane on my EBD did me no good. When I pulled it off it took some of the clear with it. Wetsand and re-do..I guess...

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#174 3 years ago
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#175 3 years ago

I’m not worried about the look I’m more concerned about the purpose of the clear providing a flat surface.
This has caused major craters everywhere which is completely opposite of my goal and purpose. Also the clear is doing everything it can to get away from the playfield so I’m just watching the puddles kind of dance around like some living blob. So even after it dries it will probably just peel off.
Also this masking tape sucks and the clear just went through it any how. So my aim to protect the inserts from clear coat failed and I’m going to have to resand them anyhow.

The dick that took this adhesive out of the ink and didn’t tell Bruce should be pulled out of his house in front of his kids and have the shit kicked out of him.

I really miss being able to have a drink

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#176 3 years ago
Quoted from mrm_4:

I’m not worried about the look I’m more concerned about the purpose of the clear providing a flat surface.
This has caused major craters everywhere which is completely opposite of my goal and purpose. Also the clear is doing everything it can to get away from the playfield so I’m just watching the puddles kind of dance around like some living blob. So even after it dries it will probably just peel off.
Also this masking tape sucks and the clear just went through it any how. So my aim to protect the inserts from clear coat failed and I’m going to have to resand them anyhow.
The dick that took this adhesive out of the ink and didn’t tell Bruce should be pulled out of his house in front of his kids and have the shit kicked out of him.
I really miss being able to have a drink
[quoted image]

Oh man those blobs are even worse than I thought. And the tape... ugh. I'm not super happy with masking tape in general right now. We share frustrations for sure.

I'll pitch in to the gofundme for beating the living hell out of whoever screwed this all up. My EBD hell isn't going any better.

I'm definitely nervous of what kind of nonsense awaits me when I finally start shooting clear...

#177 3 years ago

Can someone verify what terminal goes into the clip on J2 for the power module?
.093 is too big and won’t fit through the clip and doesn’t grip the male and .062 is too small and just slides in and out of the clip and won’t slide over the male.

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#178 3 years ago

This is what you want for those connectors:

https://www.greatplainselectronics.com/categories.asp?cat=7

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#179 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Yep, protect the lamp sockets with old incan bulbs.
Leave them until the clear dries. If you remove them when wet, trash will fall into the clear.

That's a great idea!

Will be noting that down when I do my first attempt with HS

#180 3 years ago
Quoted from Canuck_pinhead:

That's a great idea!
Will be noting that down when I do my first attempt with HS

Only one thing I'm struggling with on this approach: how do you buff/wetsand (thinking mainly of the inserts) with all those bulbs in place?

#181 3 years ago

Thanks
Figures I didnt realize there was a size between the 2 I had. Found a bag of 100 females on eBay for $6 shipped since GPE is out of stock at the moment.

#182 3 years ago
Quoted from KSUWildcatFan:

Only one thing I'm struggling with on this approach: how do you buff/wetsand (thinking mainly of the inserts) with all those bulbs in place?

Just pop them out after the clear dries

#183 3 years ago
Quoted from mrm_4:

Just pop them out after the clear dries

Guess that makes sense, just let it dry for 15 or whatever between coats...right? Then remove bulbs, buff/wetsand, put back in, spray more...rinse and repeat? Or am I still looking at it wrong?

#184 3 years ago
Quoted from mrm_4:

I’m not worried about the look I’m more concerned about the purpose of the clear providing a flat surface.
This has caused major craters everywhere which is completely opposite of my goal and purpose. Also the clear is doing everything it can to get away from the playfield so I’m just watching the puddles kind of dance around like some living blob. So even after it dries it will probably just peel off.
Also this masking tape sucks and the clear just went through it any how. So my aim to protect the inserts from clear coat failed and I’m going to have to resand them anyhow.
The dick that took this adhesive out of the ink and didn’t tell Bruce should be pulled out of his house in front of his kids and have the shit kicked out of him.
I really miss being able to have a drink
[quoted image]

What was the reason for covering the inserts with tape?

Easy fix is to just allow it to cure for a week with the masking tape removed of course and DRY sand using 400 grit or 320 grit till you knock almost all of the high spots down and then re-clear. you might have to do it a few times to get a nice new smooth surface. I have been down this road a few times and its a easy fix.

#185 3 years ago
Quoted from KSUWildcatFan:

Guess that makes sense, just let it dry for 15 or whatever between coats...right? Then remove bulbs, buff/wetsand, put back in, spray more...rinse and repeat? Or am I still looking at it wrong?

Ive always wet sanded the next day, ive cleared with junky rustoleum and even Spraymax 2k and theres no way I would even touch it by hand after just 15 minutes let alone try sanding something. Someone else might be able to give some incite here if Im being too cautious or not.

#186 3 years ago
Quoted from mrm_4:

Ive always wet sanded the next day, ive cleared with junky rustoleum and even Spraymax 2k and theres no way I would even touch it by hand after just 15 minutes let alone try sanding something. Someone else might be able to give some incite here if Im being too cautious or not.

I was just going off what the can says. I'm pretty sure it says 15min between coats. As for sanding... maybe a longer wait.

#187 3 years ago
Quoted from wolffcub:

What was the reason for covering the inserts with tape?
Easy fix is to just allow it to cure for a week with the masking tape removed of course and DRY sand using 400 grit or 320 grit till you knock almost all of the high spots down and then re-clear. you might have to do it a few times to get a nice new smooth surface. I have been down this road a few times and its a easy fix.

as i explained in a couple posts I just didnt want to work on these inserts anymore. Originally trying to find them put this project back a month, then when I finally got them I already sanded and polished them level, and didnt want to do anymore to them. The more i touch these the more opportunity presents itself for something to happen to them. And with my luck theses no way in hell im putting clear on them under the hardtop to have them ghost on me 9 months later.

In the end it doesnt matter, I have to re-sand them now anyway.

#188 3 years ago
Quoted from mrm_4:

as i explained in a couple posts I just didnt want to work on these inserts anymore. Originally trying to find them put this project back a month, then when I finally got them I already sanded and polished them level, and didnt want to do anymore to them. The more i touch these the more opportunity presents itself for something to happen to them. And with my luck theses no way in hell im putting clear on them under the hardtop to have them ghost on me 9 months later.
In the end it doesnt matter, I have to re-sand them now anyway.

If the clear did apply properly and you peeled back the tape how would you have got it all level with the inserts anyways? Why are you so certain ghosting will happen if you clear over them? Having a polished gloss insert and trying to do clear over it will defiantly increase the chance of it happening. Make sure the inserts are roughed up like the rest of the surfaces using 400 grit prior to doing a clear that way it helps adhesion. Your finishing polish on the playfield prior to the hardtop should be the means of getting the inserts to be flat and clear.

#189 3 years ago

The scenario you are in is not the end of the world. It just going to take time to sand and re-clear a few times. Time is free right?

#190 3 years ago

Been down this road myself a few times but time fixes all.

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#191 3 years ago

The original thought process was to mask off the inserts and give a very light coat, three times, 15 mins apart to just seal the playfield and help with an even surface (wood vs painted). No intention on polishing and any of whats done when you traditionally clear a restored playfield to make it look like its buried in glass.
Then peel back the tape and feather in any ridge the clear would leave.

Now being that the ridge wouldve been no higher than the thickness of masking tape, there wouldve been no issue. Especially since there is a space anyway between the hardtop and the inserts due to the thickness of the adhesive. Those little windows are floating, so dips that are .005 of a millimeter low really arent a problem, its the raised areas that mess up the hardtop under the artwork.

so the plan was polish inserts, alleviate any worry of clear separating due to twisting, bending, humidity changes, impact, heat, cold, bad luck, whatever... and seal up the playfield with clear to honor the request of Outside Edge.

However, when I did my first light coat and came back I saw the traces of pooling and the tells of oil, my 2nd coat amplified that look. Finally on my 3rd coat I decided to go medium to see if i would get lucky and of course it turned into the horror show above.

So now, I just wait til after work and block sand (wet) everything level, I'll actually just do this with 1000 little by little until all the mountainous peaks are knocked down then begin polishing the inserts. It will "look" ugly but all that matters is 99% of the playfield is sealed, the inserts look good, and there arent any splinters or weird high spots that will telescope into the artwork which isnt the case because of the prep originally done for the first hardtop.

My other hardtop was on my Mata Hari and all I did with that one was just sand the entire playfield down and polish inserts and its as solid as can be. This introduction of clear coating prior bums me out, I hate clear coating, I dont have the means to paint in the winter with 20 degree temps, yesterday was a major pain to heat the space. I'll be glad when this piece is behind me.

#192 3 years ago

If it makes you feel any better I've realized how much I mangled my drop bank switches because of how I had them secured. I very much regret not having spliced in molex connectors before I started removing the hardtop. I'm in hell. Oh, and these 555 lamp sockets..also wonderful.

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#193 3 years ago
Quoted from KSUWildcatFan:

Guess that makes sense, just let it dry for 15 or whatever between coats...right? Then remove bulbs, buff/wetsand, put back in, spray more...rinse and repeat? Or am I still looking at it wrong?

Only put the bulbs in during spraying.

Remove bulbs for sanding or buffing

You will blow the buffing compound out of all the holes and sockets, before it dries.

Any bad sockets you will quickly find, because the little springs break off just from the compressed air.

#194 3 years ago
Quoted from KSUWildcatFan:

If it makes you feel any better I've realized how much I mangled my drop bank switches because of how I had them secured. I very much regret not having spliced in molex connectors before I started removing the hardtop. I'm in hell. Oh, and these 555 lamp sockets..also wonderful.
[quoted image]

Is there a "Restoration Heartaches" thread for things taking a crap turn? I feel like people learn more by seeing all the horrible or minor mistakes. Also it feels good sometimes to just cry it out with others haha

Edit: I shouldnt say people learn more that way, thats not fair. People like tragedy, thats probably more appropriate.

#195 3 years ago
Quoted from mrm_4:

Is there a "Restoration Heartaches" thread for things taking a crap turn? I feel like people learn more by seeing all the horrible or minor mistakes. Also it feels good sometimes to just cry it out with others haha
Edit: I shouldnt say people learn more that way, thats not fair. People like tragedy, thats probably more appropriate.

Misery loves company. Seems your Xenon and my EBD are going to drive us both to the point of insanity, so...grab your straight jacket and let's cry it out together!

#196 3 years ago
Quoted from mrm_4:

I love me a nice clean coin door

Coin door looks awesome!

#197 3 years ago

Just got through the last page and a half I’ve been absent for. Looks like you’re at least back to it, and making good progress.

#198 3 years ago

As a newb doing my first machine and know absolutely nothing about any of this, I’m terrified now.

#199 3 years ago
Quoted from Kderrick:

As a newb doing my first machine and know absolutely nothing about any of this, I’m terrified now.

The hardtop fiasco? Don't be scared.

I knew absolutely nothing (and in a lot of ways I'd argue that to still be the case) when I did my High Speed and it came out beautiful.

He got a defective hardtop, as did I on my Eight Ball Deluxe. No amount of 'skill' would have saved either of those installs. OE has identified the issue and what's being shipped out is good to go again. You'll be fine. Take lots of pictures and ask on Pinside if you can't figure anything out. Easy peasy. It's not rocket science and you don't really have to be 'good' at much. There are a few fine detail areas where you should be especially careful (shooter lane, inserts), but all in all I'd argue that most anyone could do this if they just pay attention to the details *and take lots of pictures*.

Now, this Xenon is also getting some hella pimped out touches that the majority of people just aren't going to do. Be impressed by those..because some of that *does* take skill. And is also why a lot of people don't go to that level of detail. But the hardtop itself? Pffffffft.

#200 3 years ago
Quoted from Kderrick:

As a newb doing my first machine and know absolutely nothing about any of this, I’m terrified now.

Because they made 11,000 Xenons, every playfield restorer has a pile of old ones.

If you worry about spraying clear or applying a hardtop, you can have have it done by a restorer, and then have a ready-to-go unit on your doorstep in a week or so.

All the popular games, like Xenon, SBM and Playboy are like that........

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