(Topic ID: 167028)

Thoughts about the TOP 100 ranking


By Luppin

3 years ago



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  • 47 posts
  • 31 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by Luppin
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    #1 3 years ago

    Sometimes ago I started a thread regarding the credibility of the TOP 100 Pinside ranking:

    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-real-ranking

    Together with many other pinsiders we agreed that for many reasons the ranking cannot be trusted too much (especially because of scores manipulations by owners).

    Anyway I was considering another aspect not discussed yet, that I think it's very important: looking at the ranking we usually look in the first place at the # POSITION of a game. #12 is clearly much better than #67, right?

    But if you look at the SCORES of the TOP 100 games (not the position), you will realize that the spread between the first and the last is very narrow: #1 scores 8.8 and #100 scores 7.5. Looking at the scores and not at the position puts everything in a totally different perspective. 7.5 is actually an excellent score. If you consider that the score is based on a wide range of the most diverse attributes including art, music, theme, you can clearly realize that all those machines provide an amount of pinball experience that is not too different.

    Often there are heated discussions on which is the best pin, and even among experts there is little consensus even about the most popular machines. In my opinion this depends from the fact that THEMING plays a HUGE role in our appreciation of a machine, but we do not consciously completely realize it. The same can be probably said about MUSIC (I am personally hugely influenced by it). For other people can be ART. So if you fall in love, let's say, for a machine's art, you will be probably biased evaluating the other aspects of the machine. If the gameplay is poor, you will not probably rate it as brilliant, but you will probably rate it as good. And so on and so forth.

    Having said that, the TOP 100 Pinside ranking is very "short". The spread between #1 and #50 is 0.9 (8.8 - 7.9), and from #51 to #100 is 0.3 !!!! (7.9 - 7.6). Very small difference.

    I think that this explains a lot, and that we should probably taking it easy when discussing "best" games, rankings and similar topics.

    But on the other hand, considering also all the manipulations discussed in the previous thread linked above, we have the scientific proof that the TOP 100 ranking does not prove much. Have all those machines their own merits? Or have all owners given top scores to their own machines (and bad scores to others), ending up leveling the whole lot off?

    #2 3 years ago

    It is just a popularity contest. I like looking at the top 100, but could care less what is ranked where...Until I sell something. LOL

    #3 3 years ago

    Rate more EMs!

    #4 3 years ago

    #26 Devil Riders
    #29 Tron LE

    #5 3 years ago
    Quoted from boustrophedonic:

    #26 Devil Riders
    #29 Tron LE

    Devil riders only has 15 people that rated... It's a very small sample size.
    The position should move drastically with just one bad score.

    Since not all people rate all games, the numbers are off for the sample size. To get a true comparison, you would need the same number of people to rank each game.

    #6 3 years ago

    .

    Quoted from boustrophedonic:#26 Devil Riders #29 Tron LE

    ...which is one good reason why the minimum number of ratings needs to be set much higher.

    #7 3 years ago

    That's hillarious. Just proves that the system needs an overhaul.

    I know it would take more work but you simply can't and should not compare early 70's+80's digit display pins with 90's DMD pins/modern Sterns in the same ranking. Pins like Meteor and Xenon have little fair comparison with 90sB/W + modern Stern machines, if you are strictly basing the comparison on gameplay value and features (machine ratings).

    There are a lot of topics on this already and I'm sure this will not be the last.

    #8 3 years ago

    Is something I've been meaning to do for a long time, thanks for the reminder.

    #9 3 years ago

    Ranking should be reset every year or two, w/ an optional "re-rate" for users. This would allow people to judge the ebb n flow of the machines

    #10 3 years ago

    my suggestion is stop worrying about it. it's just a subjective list that can never be definitive, by its very nature. putting this much thought into it indicates it carries in your mind a level of importance that is not warranted. to sum up: who cares.

    #11 3 years ago

    Don't confuse popularity with "better". My better might be your worse.

    #12 3 years ago

    It is interesting, but pointless for us seasoned collectors

    If you are into EMs, pointless
    If you like early 80s Bally's, pointless
    Sys 11s, useless

    Only those who think a room full of NIB Sterns makes them a true pinfan like that list

    #13 3 years ago

    You are wrong that owners can easily manipulate the rankings. It is actually Non owners and haters that have the power.

    If there are 10 raters of a pin and 9 gave the pin a 10 rating and one person gives the game a 1 rating then the avg would make a 9.1 rating. That one person who gave the low rating lowered the avg score almost a whole point.

    #14 3 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    my suggestion is stop worrying about it. it's just a subjective list that can never be definitive, by its very nature....

    How will collectors know what to buy if the list isn't "perfect"? Lol

    #15 3 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    my suggestion is stop worrying about it. it's just a subjective list that can never be definitive, by its very nature. putting this much thought into it indicates it carries in your mind a level of importance that is not warranted. to sum up: who cares.

    Very very true. In reality I only care about how I rate a game. I don't care how others rate it.

    I think it's cool when new games like Devil Riders pop up on the list. It shines a light on games that people may not know about. The system is fluid and ratings are ever changing so I have no problem with games showing up in the top 100 and then gradually finding their rightful place on the list.

    Quoted from snyper2099:

    That's hillarious. Just proves that the system needs an overhaul.
    I know it would take more work but you simply can't and should not compare early 70's+80's digit display pins with 90's DMD pins/modern Sterns in the same ranking. Pins like Meteor and Xenon have little fair comparison with 90sB/W + modern Stern machines, if you are strictly basing the comparison on gameplay value and features (machine ratings).
    There are a lot of topics on this already and I'm sure this will not be the last.

    There are so many digital display pins I would rate higher than DMDs. Fun, art, and layout are more important to me than how deep the rules are. The beauty of the system is what's important to me may not be important to you but we can all adjust the score to reflect our preferences.

    #16 3 years ago

    Look the same information up on Mr. Pinball, it is more accurate and now running going on 20 years.

    If people don't want to read rating comments here go to pinballreviews.com and be ready to learn something.

    #17 3 years ago

    I think it's difficult. Ranking a game and getting it to fall in my current perceived placement on my own rankings requires fudging the numbers a bit.

    Too many categories and I have no desire to scale my ratings...even more work. I would love to see a system that doesn't use 1-10. No pinball deserves a 1 IMO. My ratings fall between a 6-9 for the most part.

    The easiest solution is to bomb the extreme ends of the ratings (maybe top and bottom 5% of a pins ratings)

    #18 3 years ago

    My hope is that more people toy with the ratings system to annoy the noob collectors who care what others think of their collection

    #19 3 years ago
    Quoted from PorkChopExpress:

    My hope is that more people toy with the ratings system to annoy the noob collectors who care what others think of their collection

    I think you're onto something. I'm a noob collector but I don't care what people think of mine. I must be an anomaly.

    #20 3 years ago
    Quoted from Luppin:

    Sometimes ago I started a thread regarding the credibility of the TOP 100 Pinside ranking:
    https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-real-ranking
    Together with many other pinsiders we agreed that for many reasons the ranking cannot be trusted too much (especially because of scores manipulations by owners).

    no, most people disagreed with your overall premise the last time you made this same topic.

    #21 3 years ago

    I don't really care about the top 100, what I like is different to what other people like such as I enjoy popeye (not even in the top 100) and believe it is totally underrated and not cared for when it's a fun game. However diner is at 79 and from my opinion it should be much higher. Twd pro is the lowest rated stern at 94 which is absurd because its a good game and far better then it is percieved. However one mans trash is another mans gold.

    #22 3 years ago
    Quoted from dmbjunky:

    I think you're onto something. I'm a noob collector but I don't care what people think of mine. I must be an anomaly.

    I was speaking about the noob collectors who care, Not all noobs.
    I was once a noob too, as we all were at some point.

    #23 3 years ago

    Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but my 2 cents would be to have 2 top 100 lists:

    1. an all time top 100 (which is the top 100 in its current format).

    2. A top 100 for active members who have logged on in the past 6 months.

    #24 3 years ago
    Quoted from Eskaybee:

    Don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but my 2 cents would be to have 2 top 100 lists:
    1. an all time top 100 (which is the top 100 in its current format).
    2. A top 100 for active members who have logged on in the past 6 months.

    Actually I just looked and if you go to Top 100, between the EM 100 and Comments tap you can make a custom Top 100 list. Here's one with ratings over the past 6 months that only includes games with at least 15 ratings.

    top100 (resized).JPG

    #25 3 years ago
    Quoted from boustrophedonic:

    #26 Devil Riders
    #29 Tron LE

    Quoted from PorkChopExpress:

    My hope is that more people toy with the ratings system to annoy the noob collectors who care what others think of their collection

    2016-08-23 (resized).png

    Like this? haha. I knew someone would be there after this thread. Didn't expect it to be you, though?

    #26 3 years ago

    Thoughts? I always thought it was a joke.

    #27 3 years ago
    Quoted from The_Gorilla:

    Like this? haha. I knew someone would be there after this thread. Didn't expect it to be you, though?

    In all fairness, I gave Tron low scores as well and I love that pin. Gotta play both sides to really enjoy the madness

    #28 3 years ago
    Quoted from The_Gorilla:

    Like this? haha. I knew someone would be there after this thread. Didn't expect it to be you, though?

    Just make a custom Top 100 and remove outliers and you can get rid of PorkChop's rating.

    #29 3 years ago

    It's a list of the most popular games, I don't think it's very significant beyond helping you look at popular titles. IMDB has as similar one, as does Pinpedia, they all have different, but similar results.

    Arguing about it seems like arguing about ESPN's NFL Power Rankings, which people do every week of football season. Ultimately the rankings are the opinions of 25 or 75 people averaged out. That's it, deal with it.

    #30 3 years ago

    It looks like everybody agree that as it is the TOP 100 is, for many different reasons, completely unreliable. That is my main point.

    #31 3 years ago

    The ranking system is a shocker. When I first started the top 10 was my priority right! How wrong I was. It's like cars....... they all do the speed limit, get you from A-B but are vastly different in price and popularity. This reason alone is why no pin should gain the 1 ranking, like some will give to mb, mm, AFM etc one mans Ferrari will be another's Lada.

    My suggestion would be ranking by the following categories. Don't let anyone score a machine! You could then make the following reasoning behind each category.

    Sold data: you would look to compare pricing against the other categories. If it's $10k+ but low production, it might be priced this way not due to great gameplay or awesome theme, simply because it's a collectors trophy. You might find a pin that's $2k, high production and used for tournament play, this to some might be a winner due to low cost and good even gameplay.

    Production run: what's my chances of finding one. Is this game historically ranked higher due to such large production numbers giving people more chance to play and therefore vote.

    Manufacture date: how modern is the pin, is it two years old or 30. It might be in great condition as the owners looked after it or because it's brand new. This could also help with mechanics longevity/reliability.

    Tournament use: essentially a more accurate gameplay ranking and most tournament games can be watched on YouTube etc. This might help get passed games that have an awesome art package so the owner votes the poor accompanying gameplay as awesome.

    It's either that or just get stuck in and enjoy pinball. You will eventually create your own top 10 and not care or even consider the ranking system.

    #32 3 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    no, most people disagreed with your overall premise the last time you made this same topic.

    Some agreed, some not. or we disagreed about the reasons for the unbalancing of the ranking.

    In this thread as you can see the consensus is towards the complete unreliability of the TOP 100.

    #33 3 years ago
    Quoted from boustrophedonic:

    #26 Devil Riders
    #29 Tron LE

    How many people have ever played a collector quality DR?
    I would suspect most have never even seen the game in person.

    The Steam PC or Android versions gives this manufacturer credance.

    Zaccaria had incredible creativity, innovation, and quality which Bally, Williams, and even Stern COPIED into some of their most famous designs.

    History is a circle in this case.

    #34 3 years ago
    Quoted from xTheBlackKnightx:

    How many people have ever played a collector quality DR?
    I would suspect most have never even seen the game in person.
    The Steam PC or Android versions gives this manufacturer credance.
    Zaccaria had incredible creativity, innovation, and quality which Bally, Williams, and even Stern COPIED into some of their most famous designs.
    History is a circle in this case.

    I should have bought the one I played. It didn't have all of the fancy lights that I am used to so I passed. Mistake.

    #35 3 years ago
    Quoted from maddog14:

    It is just a popularity contest. I like looking at the top 100, but could care less what is ranked where...Until I sell something. LOL

    So, what you're saying is that you care?

    #36 3 years ago

    The ratings are pretty pointless. My games get mixed reviews and if the family were to rank them it would be in the reverse order of the pinside reviews.

    #37 3 years ago

    Check out removed outliers, last 6 months, and I lowered the required number of ratings because of the short time span.

    top100(3) (resized).JPG

    Robocop probably enjoyed a bump because of Pinburgh. Avengers because of the new code.

    #38 3 years ago

    Thoughts on top 100? Here's my thought. Who gives a F#CK? It will always be inaccurate no matter what you do. People will pump up or dump on games depending on what they own. I swear these top 100 threads are like weeds. Anyone got any Roundup?

    #39 3 years ago
    Quoted from Luppin:

    It looks like everybody agree that as it is the TOP 100 is, for many different reasons, completely unreliable. That is my main point.

    i think the difference is very few people think fiddling with it will ever change the fact that it's a subjective list that isn't worth worrying about. there's no such thing as a "reliable" list of peoples' favorite pinball machines.

    #40 3 years ago

    Any game can get old fast no matter where it falls on the rankings. it's the ones that hold there value to each individual person who can enjoy them for the longest period of time.

    #41 3 years ago

    Personally, I like for example my PTC as it is extremely unique. That does not mean it is a "Top 10" game, nor will it ever will be in the history of pinball.

    Relevance is based more than just personal taste, but design, features, sound, and creativity.

    #42 3 years ago

    Even if everyone gave a true, impartial and honest rating the list would still be meaningless as the criteria we judge games on is constantly changing.

    Just think of the newest games 50, 40, 30, 20, 10 years ago (I haven't looked these up as it's not relevant) but each of those games would likely be considered "the best ever" at the time of their release.

    From my own personal experience playing machines as they came out, I thought that F14 was the best game ever when I first played it and would likely have given it a very high score, the same could be true for T2.
    Just imagine if Metallica or AcDc (or pretty much any of the newer machines) had come out at the same time as MM or AFM do you think the scores would be comparable? In all likelihood the newer machines would score significantly higher.

    It's like trying to compare anything of different eras, completely subjective.
    Who would win between Tyson or Ali?
    Which is the best football team Liverpool of the 80's or Man Utd in the 00's? (Trick question it's obviously LFC)

    Then when you throw in people's own agendas (agendum?) things get further blurred, put the idiots who rate everything as either 10 or 1 and the whole thing becomes meaningless.

    Maybe ratings should depreciate over time.
    How many people can honestly say they go back and update their own ratings on a regular basis? What you thought was a 10 2 years ago is likely to have changed. If you rated a machine a 10 and then something you believe to be better comes out how do you rate that, a 10 again, or do you go back and change your original rating to a 9?

    The whole ranking system is purely subjective, and as long as it's looked at in that way it MAY give a general idea as to what other people consider the best machines, but realistically it's a crock of $h!t.

    #43 3 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    i think the difference is very few people think fiddling with it will ever change the fact that it's a subjective list that isn't worth worrying about. there's no such thing as a "reliable" list of peoples' favorite pinball machines.

    Agreed. Too many subjective factors really: theme, art, music, gameplay style (stop and go / flow), player's knowledge and skills, nostalgia and so on... All SUBJECTIVE factors, little space for an objective ranking really.

    Having said that, I repeat what stated above: the existing TOP 100 list is very "short" in terms of SCORING. From 8.8 to 7.5 is very tight. So the list can just give a rough idea of machines that should not be too bad. Then you should choose the machines with the attributes you prefer: especially the theme is key for everybody I think. Then art, music, pinball generation (EM, early SS, DMD), and so on, according to each one's tastes.

    #44 3 years ago
    Quoted from WJxxxx:

    Even if everyone gave a true, impartial and honest rating the list would still be meaningless as the criteria we judge games on is constantly changing.
    Just think of the newest games 50, 40, 30, 20, 10 years ago (I haven't looked these up as it's not relevant) but each of those games would likely be considered "the best ever" at the time of their release.
    From my own personal experience playing machines as they came out, I thought that F14 was the best game ever when I first played it and would likely have given it a very high score, the same could be true for T2.
    Just imagine if Metallica or AcDc (or pretty much any of the newer machines) had come out at the same time as MM or AFM do you think the scores would be comparable? In all likelihood the newer machines would score significantly higher.
    It's like trying to compare anything of different eras, completely subjective.
    Who would win between Tyson or Ali?
    Which is the best football team Liverpool of the 80's or Man Utd in the 00's? (Trick question it's obviously LFC)
    Then when you throw in people's own agendas (agendum?) things get further blurred, put the idiots who rate everything as either 10 or 1 and the whole thing becomes meaningless.
    Maybe ratings should depreciate over time.
    How many people can honestly say they go back and update their own ratings on a regular basis? What you thought was a 10 2 years ago is likely to have changed. If you rated a machine a 10 and then something you believe to be better comes out how do you rate that, a 10 again, or do you go back and change your original rating to a 9?
    The whole ranking system is purely subjective, and as long as it's looked at in that way it MAY give a general idea as to what other people consider the best machines, but realistically it's a crock of $h!t.

    Totally agree. Most of the people here discovered pinball only few years ago (not many with long time, in depth PLAYING knowledge over hundreds of machines). I suppose they started rating machines after few months owning or playing their first machines. Maybe they properly knew only a few machines, with a very limited experience. So their evaluation is not really reliable.
    This is why, as I stated in the previous thread about rankings, I believe that maybe only a recognized, unbiased, very experienced pinball expert could write such a list. It would be still a subjective list, but still more reliable than the mess we have now. Something similar to a journalist writing about music or something. In that case you know the name of the person who wrote the list, and in case he is a famous critic you also know his tastes and probably his biases, so it would be easier for a reader to assess the meaning of such a ranking.

    Here on Pinside I found a pinsider called Caucasian2Step who rated more than 700 machines and looks to me like very knowledgeable. I often check his ranking.

    #45 3 years ago

    As a noob, I look at the detailed reviews a lot, but I only consider the numerical score if it's an outlier (very high/very low), and only then if there are details about the scoring in the reviews. I'm mostly looking for opinions on things that are hard to assess when you aren't a great player yet, such as whether experienced players like the strategy on a pin or not or whether the play value holds up over time. I haven't rated any machines yet myself, because I am still learning what I like/don't like on various machines.

    But yes, more EM reviews please!!

    #46 3 years ago

    I use the ratings mostly to keep track of what I liked or disliked at the last show. Needless to say that I own most of the machines that I rated highly. It's not a rating bias but my purchasing decisions are highly correlated to what I like and can afford. Sometimes the reviews are useful. I usually read those before I run out and buy another machine.

    #47 3 years ago

    In order:

    - checking the # machine's position in the ranking: unuseful and misleading
    - checking the machine's overall score: more useful, but still very incomplete
    - checking the machine's sub-category scores: bit more useful
    - reading comments and try to distinguish between the reliable ones and the heavily biased ones: useful
    - reading qualified comments or from people you directly know and trust: gives a possibly reliable idea of the machine
    - play the machine: very useful
    - play the machine extensively: do that and forget all the rest

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