You nailed it- An EM on steroids with an LCD for $7500

Two ramps and tons of drop targets. I thought the same thing-and that it reminds me of an EM.
I am also still wondering what the third flipper does?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/ynPVwstcw5s?autoplay=1&rel=0

1080i quality of the footage they use right now is jaw dropping in person. There's plenty more to come

The OP nailed it. Whenever people come over and see my LOTR LE they just stare in awe at the play field. It's like looking into middle earth and every big moment from the films is there, right before our eyes. Course years of mods being available has helped shape that space even more, but its a thing of beauty. Also, LOTR should never be LED'd out with loads of color! The warmness of the art is lost in that psychedelic parade.

I get the Hobbit is a darker theme but JJP really missed the mark in bringing that dark world to life. The reason so many people hate the Smaug design is it was supposed to be the central theme of the game. We all wanted to look at the play field and see this huge amazing interactive dragon. I even thought the whole upper play field would have been smaugs body and the ramps were going to part of his body/tail. We all had our own visions / hopes. And what we got was beyond a huge letdown. But more than that there's just no representation of the hobbits journey in the play field / toys. Hate to say it but this game is screaming for more figures / toys. Take the lower play field bumpers. That real estate could house a mini story, like the way lotr has Sam and frodo pulling gollum...instead we get these strange cheap looking axes.

I think Jack needs another year to make this right, not 2 months. I just don't think there's much they can do at this point. It's gonna end up being the game that could have been, not the game you have to have. JJP hyped us up and man, next to Woz and tbl, it's brutally lacking in a way no code / flow could fix.

Kaneda,

You bring up a lot of good points. When the playfield designs were released I thought there had to be more to come in terms of a mini playfield or under playfield as the design seemed far less complex then WOZ. When I realized that wasn't the case I thought "they that's cool as the Smaug toy is going to be very interactive". I thought maybe he would "eat" pinballs off the wireframe and shoot them back at you. Maybe his head would lower above the drops and you could shoot pinballs into him. Maybe some of the drops in front of him would be on a motorized target bank Attack from Mars style that lower to reveal a shot into him and a shot off to the side that only the upper right flipper could make.

When none of those came true and it was revealed that Smaug would talk to you but not interact with the ball I was bummed. In a $7500 game I expected to be able to shoot into the Smaug area if that is the games central toy. While drop targets are fun interactive toys are what makes many of us shell out the big bucks with these higher end games.

I still hope that JJP can turn things around. Personally I think if the entire Smaug area is dressed up to look like an interactive lonely mountain toy that the game can come off as having a toy more interactive then the castle in MM. Now we just need to give them time to make some of the changes many of us are suggesting.

Disagree. AFM's artwork is clear, bold, cohesive, graphic, and is composed well. There are action lines on all the shots. Sure, the layout is "open" and "empty"...but, it's not a widebody...Hobbit's openness on a widebody coupled with the "empty" art gives it a negative visual double whammy.

I almost feel for all pin manufacturers when even AFM is seen as boring.

If you really think that, you should quit pinball and go base jumping or something like that.

Well here's the thing - if a machine accomplishes what it sets out to do -create a fun world under glass - it doesn't matter if it's "empty" or "full". A game can be super simple like AFM or IM...or ultra complex like TZ or JD ...as long as what's there is fun and the player enjoys it, there's no "right way" to design a game. Sometimes less is more. Sometimes more is more. If it works, it works! Finding that "magic" must be extremely difficult for designers...I'm not sure they even know the secret behind it...they try their best, and if it resonates, success!

That being said, I think current manufacturers are expected to provide "more" due to the price models of today.

That I agree with...TH playfield art looks pretty good to me though as a disagreement. Shots all have clear inserts, Photoshop is fine, characters are there. *shrug* AFM art is ugly to me. Game is fine...a bit overrated, but fine. Different strokes.

yup. nothing wrong with charging more for machines but it better be baked into the game and not some arbitrary number the company comes up with just because. i was sold on tbl because i see where my money is going. @ 9k i have much higher expectation from jjp, or any builder, but as of yet they have completely underwhelmed and under promised with this offering. i really hope jjp#3 is a hit because this one isn't.

Anyone walking away because of some "place holders" items and not happy about Smaug are probably the same people that were disappointed with the first film.. The first film was a character building and building of a story.

The 2nd film was better than the first and such I am sure the 3rd will be even more so.
This just posted about Peter Jackson telling of the climax having a 45 minute battle scene.
http://collider.com/the-hobbit-the-battle-of-the-five-armies-ending/

The Hobbit films are epic as will be the pinball machine. There is more to come and plenty of surprises. The game at expo was a prototype. Elements were missing as well as the lockbar button and other goodies. I'm looking forward to the finished product. Plus all the added features of the 3rd film.

AFM TH.jpg

I gave the thing a black frame beacuse I don't think the bright pics and vids do the game justice. TH has potential.
Comparing the two games it's clearly different stlyes but I think it's obvious that the art is the problem on TH. Like I said before it's the upper third of the PF that simply doesn't work visually. It doesn't fit the rest of the table. Plus it looks like a bunch of different elements randomly thrown together.

I don't understand the choice of the VUK covers. The Smaug head seems fine to me, but the gold coins are huge and the "mountain"has rainbow plastic written all over it. The metal ramp is massive and looks a bit too modern to resemble anything you'd find in Middle Earth. An empty spot would've looked better than the book, but that's going anyway. The barrels themselves are sweet but what's the point when you don't see them anyway?

AFM gets it right. TH still needs to come a long way.

They are fixing the ugly stuff at the top and I'm sure the VUKs will be wireform.

Yes...agree on what you said. The top third needs changed and will be. The playfield art and bottom two-thirds are fine though. That part, to me, looks way better than the AFM art.

I really don't like what I've seen thus far but JJP seems to release stuff in trickles so there's still hope. My WOZ exceeded expectations and I hope Hobbit will be just as good if not better. Sometimes I let WOZ go into attract mode just to watch the light show. Even though Hobbit is a darker theme I'd like to see them incorporate their awesome light show talent into Hobbit. I have no horse in this race but 'expect my 2nd JJP will be #3 so I'm still following this story. I'm sure Jack still has some tricks up his sleeve he'll reveal later.

JJP had to show all they got at the Expo, why on earth would you hold back during the main event with all spotlights focussing right at you? Especially with new Stern, DP and others who showed everything they had to offer. I think they had time enough to prepare at least 1 good looking/playing Hobbit prototype.
Wasn't Hobbit meant to be released by summer initially? Timewise there is no excuse to state that Hobbit is far from finished.
What they showed at Expo is what JJP believed was right and almost finished. It is due to the negative responses that they now say that Hobbit is not done yet and that we will see major improvements soon. I can't believe it that they dared to show this Hobbit sitting next to WOZ, Hobbit would be different yes, great!..but this??
Sorry JJP but this presentation was way below my expectations.. Im not out on my pre-order yet but not far from it either. Such a pitty
The display and animations are really great, very good quality, but gameplay is slow, there is nothing happening, the sounds are poor, the ball moves very slowly around this widebody pf, why a widebody for this game? There simply is no thrill. The sling axes look like as if those are made from paper, the ''epic'' Smaug is like a joke, etc, probably all has been said here before. I hope they can lift the gameplay and looks to the same standard as WOZ otherwise Hobbit is a nono for me.
Something else, now i am already bashing JJP, I was so annoyed when I heard that the THLE was not the only one beeing produced as a special edition, no, if you really want something great we have the ''smaug'' edition available... how dare you!
2 months left for JJP to show something that can justify a $8K purchase, im holding my breath and at the same time I hope they will!

PB.

I would like to know what these changes are? When will we see the game again in November? Not sure how much can change in a couple weeks, but I do hope to see many NEW exciting changes based on the underwhelming expo feedback. If enough items don't change I can see a ton of people pulling out of this game and moving onto something else.

I really want this game to succeed as I enjoy the theme and the overall quality that was delivered for WOZ. The Hobbit should be in the same class and nothing less.

Exactely!

Sitting in our shop playing hobbit sound files through my woz... Wow I love it

Agreed, Aurich. It looks a LOT better now! Thanks for your initial post, and thanks also for the follow-up.

Nice looking PF - I hope the code and the sound don't blow

With keefer working on the code, that's the LAST thing I'd be worried about.

I was supposed to be

(Yeah, I am not worried about the code/modes)

Aurich,
Do you think that the size of the gold coins in the back are okay? It seems to a layman like myself that perspective would suggest that the farther the coin is from the viewer, the smaller it should be represented. The coins in the back of the pin are larger than the rest. What do you think?

I outlined them in red on this pic. It is a minor issue, but I was curious.

Coins.jpg

Regarding coin sizes,

I agree that they should be the same size (smallest) in the back as well. But to be honest I would like to see them even smaller. I know you can't exactly get it to scale - but seeing them smaller makes me want them even more so. Also, having more coins would allow for even more sparkle.

Also, really like having the coins on the column sculpts - a real nice touch of detail for a premium pin.

True, in fact it now looks quite full - and has a rather daunting number of shots available. Hope it doesn't overwhelm my first time pinball player guests

By the way, and this may be more for Matt, but do you think we can throw in a chalice, cup, plate, or gems into the 'treasure pile'?

I can see the mods already.

Yeah, especially adding gems to the treasure pile with perhaps lighting (or reflective for the GI to illuminate).

I think Matt could add a few things to improve the look and remove the blanket coin effect. Not a big deal, but another small touch that would continue to improve the area even more.

Once Matt adds the teeth that Smaug is looking pretty darn good.

I liked the look and feel of the last "all blue-ish" design, yet at first glance, I think this one is an improvement in "story-telling" -- something that was missing for me in the first edition.

There's something about having red/blue/green "areas" that to me suggests "chapters" or "time changes" or -- "scene changes". (I've never seen the film or read the book) -- at least now I feel like there is more effort being aimed towards the "story telling" visually by breaking up the field into "regions"... I have a hunch that it's a good step forward.

Also by using more primary colors, it feels more like "pinball design" to me, and less like a "movie poster." -- it's "sillier/campier" to use three different colors, much like a popsicle is silly with 3-4 different colors of icy creamed sugar swirled in there. It's more fun.

I have confidence that JJP will pull things together when it ships. They set the bar so high with the look and feel of WoZ, there's no backing down from that bar.

-mof

I also like that, especially as the Hobbit is a lighter book than the Lord of the Rings (and particularly the Silmarillion).

I think that is a great suggestion. I know Matt stated in the other thread that he is still fine-tuning some details on Smaug. Not sure if something like this is possible, but I think it would go a long way to add some "dyanmics" to the treasure pile surrounding Smaug.

I like both the Gold and Red versions of Smaug, but the Gold needs some additional coloring like the Red has (on top of his head) to give it some depth, etc... I know Matt said per lljvr's comments in the other thread that he's still looking at that as well.

Matt also stated he's working on the Teeth, tongue and light-up eyes.

Even with the Gold as is, I'm thinking of switching to the SE and sticking with the Gold Smaug. I know the switch from the LE to the SE has to be made by 11/30, but not sure if you can change your mind on Gold vs. Red Smaug after that. Assuming you have to know at switch time, I'll likely stick with Gold assuming that I could always purchase a Red one later on.

But I'm certainly happy with the changes that they've made.

And thank you to those who provided constructive criticism. We definitely listen. We aren't building this game for us

Constructive criticism is ALWAYS welcome and has shaped woz and obviously hobbit in a huge way. It makes the JJP creative team thousands strong.

As long as the criticism comes with suggestions or ideas it's very very welcome!

I love the new playfield art and apron. Only got one point I would like to give feedback on:

- Why are the lower trapdoors not colored in the same color scheme (red\yellow\brown\orange) as the top trap doors that match the surrounding colors?

I am so glad my wife likes Dragons and did not divorce me when I pre paid for this game year(s) ago. I totally appreciate that Jack allowed us to Smaug SE as well.

Also great post and follow up. With so many passionate Pinsiders, pinball will not fail on our watch.

As long as you're taking suggestions:
The writing on the ramps is weird. Some runes and symbols would work better visually. Hour glass or book, (pad-) lock, something like that. If you think you need to spell it out for the dummies you still have two lcds to do that.

I agree the ramps need something Elvish engraved.

Otherwise this is looking amazing! And whoever mentioned that the sound better not suck, consider who is doing the music. It will be epic.

Looks dirty NIB, the Hobbit will clean up nice!

As I was discussing the playfield layout of TH with one of my pinball friends we both came to the conclusion that you cannot judge a pin on layout only. Interesting to see is what theme, art, music, sound effects, rules and animations can add to the layout of a pin and give it an identity

Take a look at The Sopranos and Lord of the Rings. Do you see it

The widebody Hobbit would benefit from sidewall art. Has this been bought up yet?

nice Smaug eye avatar PinballRulez

Yep, Sopranos is almost too much fun.

Totally agree!! That could defenitly help creating "Middle Earth Mood" done right.

Hopefully someone makes them, its one of the cheaper mods that really helps the look of the game. Should be included.