The mindset of an investment is bad... Because that infers likely gain

What made the prices tolerable for years was that games HELD their resale value decently. They did not depreciate at the rate of other toy purchases like a big screen tv, etc

The mindset that they will climb over time... And time being <5 years was a foolish one contrived by those with no history in the hobby.

Hold value well... Yes. Investment??? Speculative and short sighted

First of all I think you and I have gotten off on the wrong foot. Sorry about that.

If they're putting profit above all else, I agree. But I'm aware of only one person on Pinside that seemingly does that. My observations has been *everybody* wants to make a profit be it small or at least break even.

But that's not what I was referring to. My schadenfreude comment is about those people who are rejoicing at fellow collectors losing money. I'll repeat, fellow collectors... Since the MMr announcement there's been a ton of gleeful comments surrounding the falling prices of an original MM. In my opinion those people were jealous of other collectors prior to the fall and now celebrate their loss. And now with the IM announcement its beginning again. How many of the MM and IM owners are these greedy game flippers you fret about?

I feel lucky that I never bought or owned an MM. Once they hit 6 grand many years ago I walked. It is what it is but I feel sympathetic for others that bought their grail game and now they'er being mocked/laughed at in a public forum.

I never said Pinside is a bunch of sadist. But on this point there is a fair sized contingent of them here.

Kim

Agree nothing wrong with that. Expecting to make/break even and then complaining about losses becomes the sore spot, many folks just won't have any sympathy for it.

One philosophy, don't sell any games - problem solved.

No, not always and not in expensive hobbies like pinball… a lot of you forget that there are a ton of guys doing this because they absolute LOVE IT but they are not rich like some and they can only afford to KEEP enjoying this if they don't lose their ass. Many guys need to at least break even or make a little to keep enjoying this hobby. They don't do it for the INVESTMENT but simply rely on the INVESTMENT part to keep them in the game. This is not ilke collecting 5 cent stamps or $1.00 comic books… pinball takes thousands of dollars! Not everyone is rich but some only think like the rich. Hell even most of the rich guys have some common sense and hate to lose...

Big boys and their expensive toys. Jealousy! Envy! Drama! So what? It's pinball. It's supposed to be fun. Most of the whiners about their games devaluing are the same ilk that tell people to "buck up" and " work harder" when the going gets tough. "Don't ask for handouts" blah blah blah. If someone expresses a little humor or glee over these hypocrites losing $5k on a pinball machine so what? There are far worse things going on in the world...and on Pinside.

Anyone spending thousands of bucks on a pinball machine deserves what's coming to them...for better or worse.

I agree. But don't you see the hypocrisy, jealousy and hate is on both sides?

A lot of the guys laughing all this time about MM loser's are Stern owners. And now with the Iron Man remake announcement those guys are on their knee's praying that Spiderman or Tron (or whatever) isn't next.

LOL. I got me a little schadenfreude going also.

Kim

I have seen very very very little of this. And even the little bit I've seen has been sarcastic.

I'm gleeful as hell when it comes to the price of MM falling. It has nothing to do with anyone else but me, I get to buy a NIB for $8K. I can be happy the price has fallen for myself, it has nothing to do with anyone else's financial decisions.

I'm glad they're a lot cheaper, because I'm getting a CQ NIB game for about half of what it would have cost a year ago. That is ALL I care about, along with 99.7% (ish) of the buyers.

not sure about this. I see people gleeful that they can get a brand new MM or a nice original for $8k now. I see very few people aside from the "frozen account" Hondanut actually doing any taunting or laughing in anyone's face.

I feel sympathetic for others that bought their grail game and now they'er being mocked/laughed at in a public forum.

nobody is being mocked or laughed at for buying a pin that lost money. they are being mocked and laughed at for getting on pinside and ranting about the hobby being over and no fun and the end is near blah blah blah.

Are you serious? You've been one of the worst around here.
You have a decided bias therefore you're incapable of seeing the other side.

Kim

You are 100% correct. The wealthy guy with $100,000 in pinball and probably millions in other assets just usually comes out unscathed from the so-called "schadenfreude". Usually, it's the poor people and the poorer people fighting over scraps where the schadenfreude kicks in. As in, "I lost my $12,000 pension and I hope you lose yours too." The really rich guys are used to banking on the poor barking down hill instead of uphill and they get a bit unnerved when the opposite happens from time to time.

Believe me, I'm hoping that no one loses their behind in this hobby. Someone of my means would be out. The only way I can spend thousands on a machine is if I'm pretty certain that I will only lose hundreds when I sell. Enjoying the game and having one at home makes it worth it. The prospect of losing thousands would have me finding something else to do as a hobby. Or at the very least, I would buy exclusively lower-priced games that don't have as far to fall. I can find the good in just about any game I play. The added bonus is that the $2000 games are in no danger of going back into production and thus increasing their supply and lowering their value-- haha.

Do you realize how incongruous this statement is and how you prove my point. What if MM prices could remain stable and you could still buy a remake for $8000? That's not good enough for you, you need the other guys value to fall. - In fact it's because of those high prices that you're getting an 8K game.

Sheesh

Kim

Wow! If you set out to get the most thumbs down ever, I think with that title you have achieved it!

Usanthem’s post is what I was talking about.

The fact that pins usually at least hold their value is what makes the hobby affordable to many. Or allows them to rotate their collection with 1 turnover.

Pins can appreciate faster than CDs, money market, and interest savings. Damn right you can call that an investment.

not seeing the incongruity. a NIB MM being available for $8k inevitably has an effect on the used ones that were previously selling for $20k. you seem only capable of seeing happiness as a zero-sum game -- his joy automatically detracts from yours for some reason.

In my opinion, we are seeing some of the best pinball games ever. Metallica and AC/DC definitely do not suck in comparison with the classic 90s games.

I guess I'm just cranky this morning.... I'll agree to disagree.

Enjoy the weekend all.

Kim

Not everyone got into the hobby when this was true. If you wanted to see any profit from a game you had to find a real project and bring it up to the standards of a higher valued example and at that point you got shit from people for wanting to charge for time spent. Now people expect a return on owning a game for a six month window where it became "popular."

Most used things depreciate in value. I don't understand why this is so appalling /surprising to people. I play the crap out of my games. If I lose a little money when I move the game along I'm not going to cry myself to sleep. Sure it's nice to buy something that holds its value if you want to sell, but what is the entertainment value worth to people? I guess that I buy games to play and keep them.

I still think more pins at prices that are attainable by more people are good for the hobby. I still haven't read a valid argument as to why this is actually a bad thing other than protecting personal investments. Keeping it available to only a small group sets it up for an easier extinction. Go ahead and tell me that I need to find a new hobby to stop whining...etc..etc, and that I must be too broke to buy pins since this is my stance but, I will tell you that none of that is true. I just want to have the option to buy the pins I want at prices that are IMO (subjective of course) reasonable. As much as I enjoy this hobby, 10k pins are just more too much (not that I can't buy a 10k pin I just won't). As the takeaway someone is going to now tell me that I should just buy fixer uppers and pro versions then......of course I can...that's not really the point of my discussion. If manufactures can add supply and make $$$ thus keep prices close to NIB cost, then that's a win for the hobby IMO.

It doesn't take thousands of dollars, unless you want it to. Tell that to the guy who bought his first and only pinball machine for a couple hundred dollars and a set of new rubbers for it. Maybe that's all he's in it for, maybe all he has space for and he's content with that. He's here doing what he can with what little he has, and he would be considered a pinball hobbyist, wouldn't he?

I'm new to the hobby but the thing that I find disappointing are the prices of these newer machines. I don't for-see myself becoming a huge collector because of this....which is fine because there is really only two more pins I really want and they are older games. I would have liked to get the MMr but for me the price is just too high. I'm guessing that NIB pins will continue to soar as long as people are climbing over each other to pay $8000+ for a machine.

You are wrong. I just want to buy a cheap MM. If prices were stable and I could buy an $8,000 MMLE, I'd be very happy.

In fact, it would be better for me. It would mean my MMLE was worth more after I opened it than it would be. As long as we have access to cheap games, that's what I care about. but in your scenario, prices can't stay at $12K used when new ones are $8K.

If we keep this thread going, the thread might lower pinball's popularity

I suggest we lock it

Why do you keep deleting your comments? ^^^^^^

Kim

Sorry, but I would most definitely not have the amount of money in my collection that I do if I thought that I couldn't get any of that money back.

Would I still have pinball machines even if I could never get a dime back? Yes! But it would be a very different collection.

You keep talking about pinball as not being an "investment" and I completely agree, and I bet at least 90% of people here agree with that as well. But there is a difference between looking at pinball as an investment vs buying a pin to play and enjoy and hope that you won't take a huge loss on when it comes time to sell.

People that look at pinball as an investment expect to make money when they sell. Most of us buy knowing that we are going to lose money when it comes time to sell, but we try to buy smart and not overpay so the loss is as small as possible.

Looking through my extensive collection history, there are only 3 pins that I've sold where I actually made money. The rest of them I lost money to varying degrees, including that Shadow that is currently in your collection.

I agree with this completely! I agree with the rest of Ben's post, but using the word "investment" was wrong precisely because of what you say here. Investment means you are looking to make money from buying a pin.

Makes no sense at all.

I'm a player and a collector. Out of my entire current collection I have one pin that was purchased nib. I fully expect that pin to depreciate.
I have two more nib that are coming. Amh and hobbit. I fully expect those to depreciate.

Depreciation is only a factor if I choose to sell. But they are being purchased to play. Not as investment vehicles.
The rest of my collection was purchased at amounts that were affordable. I would not have purchased those machines with an obvious loss coming if I were to sell. Yes most of those did require some sweat equity, but that is part of the hobby for me.

I didn't intentionally. I went to edit my post and it got screwed up and then worse when I tried to fix it. I've been having issues with the website.

Look, the last I'm going to say on this. I'm glad prices have come down, and I am really sorry people lost money. It's a bit personal when you accuse me off wishing Ill will on people, so be it, if that's what you think. It just shows you don't know me as well as you think you do.

Good luck.

Balony - your money is tied up in the game and is not usable elsewhere. If you argue the resale needs to be high so you can liquidate and pay your bills and expect no cost of ownership then you should not have been buying games in the first place because you can't afford it.

You can't go through life assuming "I'll just borrow this.. get my fill and then expect to sell it as break even or a profit so I can repeat". Your ownership, wear and tear, etc devalue things. You should expect some level of cost for being able to own and use something.

The "ill use it and then sell for profit" business plan is a fallacy perpetuated by false expectations.

buying of nib pins to flip is speculation.... And apparently not everyone understood what drove game values and established buyers.

+1!

Nib and playing it = instant drop in value
Games would drop in value over time until they stabilized at prices the second hand market was willing to pay for games of that era
The average price of game eras trended with overall demand with very little appreciation over long periods
Only very specific examples would buck the larger trend if there was something especially desirable about a title

The only speculation buying was nib games that you sat on for many years and you could later sell as higher quality than anything out there

But now we have many people doing high end restores... Lots of parts out there... You can restore a game to better than nib now

The last 4 years and the idea that games should all appreciated and single owner games should not depreciate are falsehoods predicated on a small window fueled by a glut of new money. One that people failed to take into account variations in the market

Wow, no doubt there are many here that completely miss points entirely.

I believe a bit of his point was missed actually. However, can i buy your games for 500 below what you paid? I want to enjoy them too!!

Bingo! That is a point well made.

No - we just see through your attempts to make this about other people struggling to afford things instead of the sell for gain model you think pinball should be

Sometime last night I mentioned not worrying about the future because we could all drop dead tomorrow. Some days I'm surprised I don't. This might be one of them....

Yes, thats exactly it... whatever helps you get through the day

First world problems.
Play pinball.
001-wonka-edited.jpg

well, I will say this.. I knew several collectors buying and selling new sterns a few years ago.. I mean, buying every new title, playing it for a while, and either selling it or keeping it in their new collection. These same guys have not bought a new Stern since the MMr announcement and all of them say they have no intention of buying any new Sterns for along time. Of course I think code has a little something to do with this also.

That's true, the latest code for AC/DC, Metallica, and ST totally rock.

Great code will definitely keep guys from buying new Sterns.

Pins should hold value? Agree
Pins should hold value so that we can trade pins in and out? Agree
Pins must hold value or I can't keep collecting because it's financially unwise? Disagree
Pins are an investment? Agree if that means "pins should hold value." Disagree if it implies (not infers) financial gain.

Holy crap dude. You've also heavily edited one of your other comments in this thread as well. And I've seen you delete whole comments in other threads before.

I'm glad this is the last were going to speak of this.

Kim

This is why and others think Stern is hurting future sales with this remake. Market drops and so does the churn rate which results in less sales.