(Topic ID: 49400)

This is not a "rebirth" of pinball... its a bubble.


By lowepg

6 years ago



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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Hwawonyu
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    #1 6 years ago

    I keep seeing people talking about this "rebirth of pinball." Or the "new age" of pinball...

    Sorry.... I don't buy it.

    I think we are simply at the crossroads of the prime pinhead generation hitting middle-age and having the disposable income to relive their youth a bit.

    In other words, it's temporary. I don't think it bursts in a few months or even a year or two, but it will die back out.... as this group stops buying. I don't see the bottom falling out of the used market completely, but I do see even fewer new machines being made... then eventually none.

    There is NOT a new growing generation of pinball players out there.... I don't care if you put ruby slippers on your flippers, it aint gonna "create" a whole new generation of players....

    A rebirth of pinball would mean arcades were growing, expanding, opening up, etc.

    This next generation approaching middle age is the xbox/ps2 gang.... they are NOT going to be dropping $7-10K on one of these behemoths... even if they come out with a "One Direction Pinball machine."

    I know this is an incredibly emotion time for pinball people (mostly WoZ buyers ), but lets not kid ourselves.... its a bubble.

    Keep Flippin'

    #2 6 years ago

    Hope you're wrong but tough to argue with ya.
    It'll be a sad, sad day when I have to pull the plug cause I can't get parts to replace something broken on my pin.

    #3 6 years ago

    your right - also consider this... what have Stern and JJ been trying to do the entire time. Ignore the home market - because we alone can not support the hobby eventually we have all owned a MM, CV, TAF, etc and are always looking for new games. The next generation will still want these games, look at EM's but not for 10K. This is why Jack is the smartest man of them all, he built a game for the arcade not the home to secure his future. I love stern - had a bad experience with Jack but respect what he is saying. Also I look at my local arcade they do often pay 10K for a new game, so his prices are not crazy - he just has to prove that he can perform a good ROI

    34
    #4 6 years ago

    Life on this planet is just a bubble in the grand scheme of things. We are all just bubbles of life in the bathtub of the universe.

    20
    #5 6 years ago

    Life is a bubble

    Our current culture is a bubble

    Peak oil, deforestation, government corruption, landfills, toxic soil & trash floating in the ocean.

    Bubbles everywhere!

    Meat production, oil usage, leveraged home ownership... All of this will end some day

    Till then I will buy Metallica, play WOZ someday & fry bacon.

    #6 6 years ago
    Quoted from DaveH:

    Life on this planet is just a bubble in the grand scheme of things. We are all just bubbles of life in the bathtub of the universe.

    Are we brothers?

    Posted the same thing within 14 seconds lol

    #7 6 years ago
    Quoted from Chambahz:

    Hope you're wrong but tough to argue with ya.
    It'll be a sad, sad day when I have to pull the plug cause I can't get parts to replace something broken on my pin.

    dont worry about that, you'll be able to fire up your 3D printer and make your own parts by then hopefully....

    #8 6 years ago
    Quoted from DaveH:

    Life on this planet is just a bubble in the grand scheme of things. We are all just bubbles of life in the bathtub of the universe.

    What he said

    #9 6 years ago

    I never played pinball in my youth and now I'm a collector. It's not a bubble for me!

    I can thank Farsight's The Pinball Arcade for this, and I'm sure a nontrivial number of new pinheads can too.

    #10 6 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    A rebirth of pinball would mean arcades were growing, expanding, opening up, etc.

    ^^this is happening.

    TILTed post. Sign in to be able to view TILTed posts.
    #12 6 years ago

    I'm in that generation of kids who grew up with videos games, but damn man, I'd love to drop 6 grand for that Metallica....

    I've already bought my own machine. I'd say there is a new generation. It just takes a nice magnifying glass to see it.

    That being said, you make a very, very good argument.

    #13 6 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    A rebirth of pinball would mean arcades were growing, expanding, opening up, etc.

    silverball museum in NJ = 155 pins
    pinball hall of fame in vegas = 135 pins
    pinballz in austin = 104
    pacific pinball = 73
    seattle pinball museum = 58
    lyons pinball in colorado = 43
    enchanted castle in lombard, IL = 18
    barcade opening this month in chicago is supposed to be 20-25 pins

    Pinball is never going to be like the 90's, but that doesn't mean a bubble burst, or a downfall (the next generation IS playing pinball). While the largest share of the market is home use, there are still people operating pins and will continue to do so. Just because people can't afford to drop $7k on a new pin doesn't mean they can't play them in arcades like everyone used to (might have to drive farther). If you really want to be a pinball owner, you can do what a lot of us do, buy broken beat up pins for under $1k and fix them up (and in some cases trade up)

    #14 6 years ago

    Nah I think pinball is too cool to die. People love to see unique and satisfying physical mechanisms and controlling balls. Pinball has picked up new fans every generation since it was invented and although it's popularity rises and falls it's still around and evolving. Home pinball is looking like the future whether it be large 'man caves' full of classics (incorporating clubs, leagues and tournaments), or interchangable single machines like the P3 and Heighway Pinball or just people reliving the rich history through virtual pinball. If we're in a bubble currently then that's evidence that pinball is fizzing away nicely.

    #15 6 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    This next generation approaching middle age is the xbox/ps2 gang.... they are NOT going to be dropping $7-10K on one of these behemoths... even if they come out with a "One Direction Pinball machine."

    My generation saw the dieing end of arcades. I really had no interest in pinball growing up or even thought about it. It wasn't until recently that I discovered pinball. Having a great appriciation for mechanics, electronics and art kind of presented pinball to me as something I overlooked and discovered its magic. I'm 26, bought all of my machines within the last year (well over 10k worth, mind you) and love pinball even moreso than the videogames I grew up with. Off to buy my next pin this weekend!

    #16 6 years ago

    There's a lot of retro arcades opening up. I don't think it'll ever be like what it once was but I'm 25 and all my friends have a blast on my pins, even the ones who've never seen one in real life before. Yeah they may drop in popularity but I don't think it's as bleak as your making it out to be. Prices will drop but there will still be demand from collectors especially if they were cheaper. I know many people in their early 20s who tell me they'd love to own a pin if it were cheaper. If someone can lower production costs that's where I really see a rebirth happening.
    Kids will still enjoy pinball if their exposed to it, it's just in this day and age most route machines are in horrible condition

    #17 6 years ago

    lowepg, do you play competitive pinball? If not there is a whole other world of things going on to boost pinball then just building arcades etc. Just look at papa.tv and the kickstarter stuff going on to promote the world of competitive pinball and put pinball out in front of these younger generations. Maybe a price bubble, but Im not sure its a pinball bubble.

    #18 6 years ago

    both my teenage children are players and I expect they will own/buy/trade machine throughout their adulthood

    #19 6 years ago

    I think there will always be a collectors market and people going in and out of this hobby but with the fact that arcades rarely exist and pinballs aren't there main focal point the kids today won't have memories of them or even really know what they are. So ten maybe twenty years it will probably disappear into a thing of the past.

    #20 6 years ago

    Not sure I buy that its a bubble right now, maybe in the home market but even with new locations to play in the area, earnings are up.

    #21 6 years ago

    Everything has its high n lows. I'm not too concerned with what happens 10-20 years down the road I enjoy what I have right now.

    #22 6 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    I keep seeing people talking about this "rebirth of pinball." Or the "new age" of pinball...
    Sorry.... I don't buy it.
    I think we are simply at the crossroads of the prime pinhead generation hitting middle-age and having the disposable income to relive their youth a bit.
    In other words, it's temporary. I don't think it bursts in a few months or even a year or two, but it will die back out.... as this group stops buying. I don't see the bottom falling out of the used market completely, but I do see even fewer new machines being made... then eventually none.
    There is NOT a new growing generation of pinball players out there.... I don't care if you put ruby slippers on your flippers, it aint gonna "create" a whole new generation of players....
    A rebirth of pinball would mean arcades were growing, expanding, opening up, etc.
    This next generation approaching middle age is the xbox/ps2 gang.... they are NOT going to be dropping $7-10K on one of these behemoths... even if they come out with a "One Direction Pinball machine."
    I know this is an incredibly emotion time for pinball people (mostly WoZ buyers ), but lets not kid ourselves.... its a bubble.
    Keep Flippin'

    Smartest comment I heard on the reality of pinball. In 5 years from now most of the guys will drop their machines and go for sports cars, gulf clubs and a condo in a warmer state. True but sad. On the upside Stern will go back to one version of each machine and reajust their pricing since they are slowly killing the operators market (at least here) by selling theirs machines too high... Remind me of williams and their 6000$ P2K.

    #23 6 years ago

    I hope the bubble posts bubble collapses soon.

    #24 6 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    I'm not too concerned with what happens 10-20 years down the road I enjoy what I have right now.

    You hit the nail on the head on that one. I'm happy with my current lineup as well.

    #25 6 years ago
    Quoted from fusion301:

    lowepg, do you play competitive pinball? If not there is a whole other world of things going on to boost pinball then just building arcades etc. Just look at papa.tv and the kickstarter stuff going on to promote the world of competitive pinball and put pinball out in front of these younger generations. Maybe a price bubble, but Im not sure its a pinball bubble.

    I GET there's lot's of pinball fans out there, but that is all FRINGE stuff....

    It's becoming a more and more niche market... there will come an end to the 80's and 90's bands they can tap into and the movie reboot themes... then what?

    Sure, there MAY be enough interest to support 1 guy making high end machines when he can sell 1000 and stay in business- but thats not REBIRTH....

    When I can walk into an arcade/family-fun-center and the idiot redemption machines dont outnumber pinballs 10-1, I'll believe pinball can survive outside collectors basements...

    #26 6 years ago
    Quoted from jsauce85:

    I think there will always be a collectors market and people going in and out of this hobby but with the fact that arcades rarely exist and pinballs aren't there main focal point the kids today won't have memories of them or even really know what they are. So ten maybe twenty years it will probably disappear into a thing of the past.

    while i agree i have a feeling that more kids today are being exposed to pins through collectors then kids who are now in their teen years were when they were growing up. I know when I was growing up mainly in the late 90's I can only think of maybe 2 locations that had pins at that time, when I was in my late teens I started seeing alternative/punk clubs start having a pin around and now most of the trendy hipster pubs and clubs have at least one pin in them

    If the market starts dropping and prices get cheap enough you'll see LOTS more people under 30 buying a pin, maybe it won't be as large a variety of pins around though as I don't know if this kind of buyer is looking to buy multiple pins

    #27 6 years ago
    Quoted from Galdaien:

    My generation saw the dieing end of arcades. I really had no interest in pinball growing up or even thought about it. It wasn't until recently that I discovered pinball. Having a great appriciation for mechanics, electronics and art kind of presented pinball to me as something I overlooked and discovered its magic. I'm 26, bought all of my machines within the last year (well over 10k worth, mind you) and love pinball even moreso than the videogames I grew up with. Off to buy my next pin this weekend!

    As another 26 year old I find the attitude is phooey. Pinball will rise in popularity, we young folks and the even younger crowd enjoy pinball. Perhaps if the crabby old folks share the gift of pinball with the young, it will continue to grow. I expose plenty to my machines and educate as many as I can.

    Just wait till hipsters discover pinball and your pocketbooks will be in a world of hurt. The retro gaming movement is huge in younger 20 something's, people my age and in the early 30s are the start of a massive influx of gainfully employed gaming community members who truly grew up with home gaming. We all want this stuff in our homes.

    The amount of product development is amazing and I hope prices keep going up....more demand = more products, more development, more games.

    #28 6 years ago

    ^^^ I totally agree. I'm the same age and all my friends think my pins are kickass, they've never really played pinball before. EVERYONE loves pinball, and it's success comes down to how many people come into contact with it. If collectors hide their collections away then it's sure to die a slow death.

    Could the increase in older pin prices be down to the fact that new people are discovering pinball but don't want to pay for a NIB? Someone must be buying them and unless all the collectors have decided to ramp up their collection sizes, it must be due to new collectors entering the market, right?

    #29 6 years ago

    You have to use your hands? That's a baby's game

    Back-to-the-Future-back-to-the-future-.jpg

    #30 6 years ago
    Quoted from accidental:

    Could the increase in older pin prices be down to the fact that new people are discovering pinball but don't want to pay for a NIB? Someone must be buying them and unless all the collectors have decided to ramp up their collection sizes, it must be due to new collectors entering the market, right?

    ding ding ding

    #31 6 years ago
    Quoted from cosmokramer:

    both my teenage children are players and I expect they will own/buy/trade machine throughout their adulthood

    Thats very cool.

    However, I'd suggest the pinside community is NOT a very good sample for the general pin-love of the market....

    That's like going to a gun store in Texas and taking a straw poll on the next election... I *THINK* the results might be a little skewed...

    #32 6 years ago

    My 27 year old son had no exposure to pinball until a few years ago ,and I don't have to ask him if we are going to see him anytime soon.He is at our house almost every night to play . It has brought us closer together as a family. It's also much cheaper than Superbike racing. He did that several years ago and his mother didn't approve but she likes the pins as well. Let the bubble burst I don't care.

    #33 6 years ago

    I thought pinball was dead in 1982, when the vids had run most of the pins out of the arcades. Sure was surprised to see pinball doing well 10 years later, when I rediscovered it. In fact, pinball constantly surprises me. That's what so cool about it.

    #34 6 years ago

    It seems about 80% of the pins I sell are to guys in their 30's to 50's but there are quite a few younger people getting into it. Video games get more realistic all the time but it can only go so far. With all these games on their phones, computers and tablets, there's not much of a reason to own or go drop money in an arcade game. They are starting to see that pinball machines are more fun than videos and the pinball experience can never be replaced with a hand held gadget.

    #35 6 years ago

    So, I don't necessarily think we are in a speculator driven bubble, I think most of the inflation is being driven by more and more new people entering the hobby with a fixed supply of games. Even so, I think it's a fairly fragile market that can't handle any big shocks.

    One big shock I possibly see happening is one of the many start-ups that are funding their operations on pre-orders failing to deliver. I think if you have a situation where 200 of so of this markets NIB buyers lose up to $10K each on games that never ship, then the boutique pinball business dies immediately, and probably a good majority of those buyers leave the hobby completely and go on to something else. I think that would have massive effects for the NIB market and it would trickle down to the used market as they dump machines trying to recoup losses.

    Most of these boutiques are scheduled to ship this year or early next. Assuming we all give them the year long leeway we seem to consider ok for missed ship dates, I figure if an event like that is going to happen, it will happen in 2014. If we make it through 2014 with no big catastrophes in the Pre-order boutique market, then I think we are good.

    I did notice hat multimorphic wasn't funding the company with Pre-orders, but was looking for outside investors. So this theory doesn't apply to all pinball boutiques. Also, I think a crash would merely return machines to their historical average, and NIB Sterns would depreciate over time like most of them have in the past. So even in that case, you aren't bad off if you keep historical prices in mind when buying.

    #36 6 years ago

    Seems like lowepg's argument hinges on two assumptions:

    1) the current rise in popularity is from middle-aged people
    2) their interest is based on fickle nostalgia

    Not a strong argument in my eyes.

    #37 6 years ago

    I really think the lower end pins are rising in price because that's what the new comers can afford.

    #38 6 years ago

    I really don't think there is a bubble or lack-there-of.
    I am 36, a product of 1980's arcades. I LOVED the video games and didn't pay much attention to pinball at all. It wasn't until I was into my 30's that I truly discovered what pinball had to offer. As has been argued before, a lot of pinsiders and pinball enthusiasts, have children that not only enjoy playing our games, but actually take part in the hobby as well. As long as there are hobbyists, and excitement in the youth, the novelty and excitement will continue forever. I cannot begin to explain how many kids I saw at the MPE with glowing eyes at playing these machines; how many parents I overheard talking about buying one for the home. I occasionally bring a pin into my restaurant and kids who never have the opportunity to play one are mesmerized by the game.
    Pinball is pure, pinball is nostalgic, pinball is great. Sure prices are high (esp on NIB and "A" list titles), but I don't think that will hurt the hobby. As other threads have stated, the flippers and the greed are what end up ruining potential futures. The pure pinball fans know one another and in my circle give each other first shot at the purchase of each others games at non-inflated pricing.
    I don't think you will ever see the rebirth of the traditional arcade...but there are still many other avenues for kids/adults to play and learn. As long as these companies keep making the machines, people will continue to buy, and people will continue to be amazed.

    Is there really a bubble? Is it limited to collectors? Didn't the METLE pins sell on the Metallica website easily? Weren't a lot of collectors disappointed in not being able to get them? Thankfully I got lucky with my LE - I will play the heck out of it and not bat an eyelash on how much it is "worth". Pinball (and it's themes) are transcending the collector elements for sure.

    #39 6 years ago

    maybe 30 to 50 year olds buy more of the pins because they can better afford them. I have loved pins as long as I can remember , but now I can finally afford the toys I want. No bubble burst soon, that I can see. If so I'll just income average their costs.

    #40 6 years ago
    Quoted from accidental:

    Seems like lowepg's argument hinges on two assumptions:
    1) the current rise in popularity is from middle-aged people

    Not a strong argument in my eyes.

    Let us know when there's a Justin Bieber or Pokemon pin, as opposed to 40-year-old musicians and comic book characters..

    #41 6 years ago

    pinball is life. everything else is a game. it will never die. it is life.

    #42 6 years ago

    I agree. Same thing is happening with the original Nintendo market right now as well.

    #43 6 years ago

    As if there's no room between a 10-year old and a 40-year old, and NIB pins are the only options available.

    15
    #44 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinmanguy:

    I really think the lower end pins are rising in price because that's what the new comers can afford.

    Yeah that's me! I'm 33 and I hardly ever played pinball as a kid. I couldn't shell out the 50 cents when I knew my game would only last a minute or two at best, so I was all about the vids at the arcade. I truly discovered pinball through a local game repair guy who replaced a monitor on my MK2 arcade game. He invited me over to a game party, and there I discovered his amazing room of a dozen of so B/W gems in mint condition. Fell in love right then and there and so did the wife.

    Would I love a CV, MM, MB, etc? Hell yes! Can I afford those? Hell no! I have a RCT, and I'm so happy I could piss! Literally, I could piss all over with happiness! I hope beyond hope that someday I can add a POTC to sit next to her. I'm hoping that if I get two and they get along well, they may have babies...

    #45 6 years ago
    Quoted from PurpleTophat:

    Yeah that's me! I'm 33 and I hardly ever played pinball as a kid. I couldn't shell out the 50 cents when I knew my game would only last a minute or two at best, so I was all about the vids at the arcade. I truly discovered pinball through a local game repair guy who replaced a monitor on my MK2 arcade game. He invited me over to a game party, and there I discovered his amazing room of a dozen of so B/W gems in mint condition. Fell in love right then and there and so did the wife.
    Would I love a CV, MM, MB, etc? Hell yes! Can I afford those? Hell no! I have a RCT, and I'm so happy I could piss! Literally, I could piss all over with happiness! I hope beyond hope that someday I can add a POTC to sit next to her. I'm hoping that if I get two and they get along well, they may have babies...

    I'm considering trying to add an RCT to my collection next to go with my RBION and WW in the lawlor collection I seem to be acquiring lol, was a fan of the RCT games growing up and I want something with more ramp shots that won't send me broke.

    #46 6 years ago
    Quoted from PurpleTophat:

    Yeah that's me! I'm 33 and I hardly ever played pinball as a kid. I couldn't shell out the 50 cents when I knew my game would only last a minute or two at best, so I was all about the vids at the arcade.

    Same here except I'm 5-years younger.

    #47 6 years ago
    Quoted from lowepg:

    Sure, there MAY be enough interest to support 1 guy making high end machines when he can sell 1000 and stay in business- but thats not REBIRTH....

    Rather than telling us pinball is dying (peeing in our Cheerios), why don't you tell us how we can have a rebirth?

    There are less games being built today than there was just 6 or 7 years ago. For any slight bubble there may be on the home buyer side, there's a much bigger sinkhole on the operator side. So please don't try to dazzle us with talk about any bubble. There ain't one. Less games are being sold. Period.

    I play on location as often as I can. Earlier today I helped a guy through his first game of AC/DC. He was pumped. Regularly playing on location is the best way I know of to support the hobby. How often do you play on location?

    #48 6 years ago
    Quoted from sfish:

    My 27 year old son had no exposure to pinball until a few years ago ,and I don't have to ask him if we are going to see him anytime soon.He is at our house almost every night to play . It has brought us closer together as a family. It's also much cheaper than Superbike racing. He did that several years ago and his mother didn't approve but she likes the pins as well. Let the bubble burst I don't care.

    Same thing with my two brothers and my dad, pinball has given all something to do together again.

    #49 6 years ago

    I can't speak for Cary NC, but I can tell you out West pinball is back!
    In Portland we have new locations popping up regularly with a pretty solid line up of games throughout the city.
    Ground Kontrol which has an amazing 20+ pins is rotating games in and updating them with Leds.
    There are even lines to get in on weeknights!!! Shit there's even hot girls in there now!
    5 years ago you could go on a Friday with zero crowds and zero girls.
    Brand new arcade with tons of pins just opened in Lincoln City OR that I'm dying to check out too.

    Seattle is rocking a ton of pins last few times i was there, maybe the locals can chime in but it's not just Shorty's anymore…. Seattle pinball museum just got a Woz and that sounds like a road trip ASAP. The Seattle pinball show grows every year in attendance and this year they moved to a bigger venue to accommodate the crowds.

    Pin a Gogo in Northern CA is packed with people and pins, pretty excited thats in two weeks! Last year the organizers where talking about the exponential growth each year. I believe they have expanding into the party next door this year.

    All that being said; those examples may not be enough to bring pinball to the state of 1992 but to say it'll burst and be gone in a decade is hardly the case.

    #50 6 years ago
    Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

    I can't speak for Cary NC, but I can tell you out West pinball is back!
    In Portland we have new locations popping up regularly with a pretty solid line up of games throughout the city.
    Ground Kontrol which has an amazing 20+ pins is rotating games in and updating them with Leds.
    There are even lines to get in on weeknights!!! Shit there's even hot girls in there now!
    5 years ago you could go on a Friday with zero crowds and zero girls.
    Brand new arcade with tons of pins just opened in Lincoln City OR that I'm dying to check out too.
    Seattle is rocking a ton of pins last few times i was there, maybe the locals can chime in but it's not just Shorty's anymore…. Seattle pinball museum just got a Woz and that sounds like a road trip ASAP. The Seattle pinball show grows every year in attendance and this year they moved to a bigger venue to accommodate the crowds.
    Pin a Gogo in Northern CA is packed with people and pins, pretty excited thats in two weeks! Last year the organizers where talking about the exponential growth each year. I believe they have expanding into the party next door this year.
    All that being said; those examples may not be enough to bring pinball to the state of 1992 but to say it'll burst and be gone in a decade is hardly the case.

    Pictures or it didn't happen.

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