(Topic ID: 236755)

Thinking about selling my entire collection - 15 Games


By WackyBrakke

8 months ago



Topic Stats

  • 254 posts
  • 138 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 months ago by spfxted
  • Topic is favorited by 7 Pinsiders

You

Topic poll

“Should I sell my collection to pay off the house”

  • Yes! 162 votes
    61%
  • No! 53 votes
    20%
  • You're bananas 50 votes
    19%

(265 votes)

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There are 254 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 6.
#51 8 months ago

The question is really wether to sell ALL your pins. What does the hobby mean to you? If it provides entertainment value then u will spend money on other forms of entertainment. Do u enjoy fixing pins and will u get the same enjoyment from reading more pinside instead of working on, talking about or playing pins.

I hate debt but ALL work and no play makes life dull. Good luck in your decision.

#52 8 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

First of all the mortgage interest is still 100% deductible up to a $750k mortgage. Property taxes are limited to $10k

Of course mortgage interest is technically still "deductible." But as he said, his is now swallowed by the standard deduction -- for 90% of Americans, there's no appreciable tax incentive to carrying a home mortgage anymore.

Quoted from iceman44:

Yes 4.55% is too high.

Agreed. I haven't gone loan shopping in a while but poking around online refinance rates look significantly better right now -- looks like he could trim more than 1% by dropping to a 10 year, and still save considerable money going with a longer-term refinance.

#53 8 months ago

Sell down to you pay off the house. Great feeling!

#54 8 months ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

I will never forget the day I went into Wells Fargo and sat down with that banker and told him I wanted to pay off my mortgage. He said: you want to do what, make a payment? I said no I want to pay it off. He said lets take a look at your account. Then he said "Oh well we can do that" I said what's the matter man, don't people come in and pay off their mortgage often? He said "No this almost never happens here"

How long ago was this? I think that would be a pretty fun trip to the bank, but honestly, I can pay it off on the ap on my phone, and I might be lazy enough to do that when the day comes instead of driving 25 minutes to the nearest WF.

#55 8 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

That's crazy Wacky!
First of all the mortgage interest is still 100% deductible up to a $750k mortgage. Property taxes are limited to $10k.

Of course the interest is deductible, but when *I* lose out on State and Local taxes that *were deductible* before but are no longer with the new tax law. Then it no longer pays to itemize because there is not anything to deduct can't get over the standard deduction. IOW if I had home interest loans I could throw that on top of State and Local taxes. So now interest and property tax are no longer valuable deductions for many people, we can not reach the level to be able to itemize.

#56 8 months ago
Quoted from WackyBrakke:

Interest rate is 4.55% monthly interest & principle payment is 3k plus another $600 in escrow items that wouldn't go away.

$3K a month. I would have a stroke when I went to bed and heart attack when I woke up if I had a monthly nut like that I had to cover.

Way back, early 70s, my dad and step mom bought a 3 bedroom, 2 car garage, corner lot and my step mom was bitching about the $220.00 house payments.

In 1977, I was looking to buy a house and my job went sour. I finally bought a house 2 years later but in that ensuing two years house prices doubled. The house I finally bought and still live in today cost me $33,500.00 and the loan was 10%. If I could have bought two years earlier I could have had this same house for around $18K.

In 1979, I got on with Boeing Aircraft as a spray painter for airplane parts. It was a union job and I was a making tops wages at $6.60 per hour. It took every bit of that and any and all overtime I could beg, borrow, and steal to make a $360.00 per month house payment.

Another new hire, and older than me, was working for Martin-Marietta somewhere in Colorado. He had been there for some time and when M-M transferred him he had to move. He was transferred to New Orleans. He could not handle N.O. and quit his job and returned his homie country of Wichita. He had sold his house in Colorado and he was looking for a house around here.

I asked if he was going to put all of his money on his "new" house or hold some back. He said, " I'm putting it on the house. Fuck those $300.00 a month house payments."

And that is the way we thought back then. My generation came of age in the 70s. The 70s were an Arab oil shortage in 1973 that put the skids to the economy. President Gerald started his WIN (whip inflation now) campaign if full force. News stories were filled with old ladies eating Alpo dog food because it was all they could afford to buy.

The Dow Jones went into bear market in 1974 and did nothing until 1982 when Paul Volker pushed interest rates to 22%. From 1974 to 1982, most money in the market was dead money. Joe Granville made a name for his self with his market calls of being short the markets; The Fischbach Brothers were noted short sellers. We lived in period of "stagflation" with high interest rates, escalating prices for goods and services---and houses. Wall Street bankers were a dime-a-dozen.

It has been a nice run for the last 35 years for a lot of people.

And somehow, along the way we have moved from an era where a $220.00 per month house payment has been supplanted by a generation who thinks a $1400.00 mortgage payment is a bargain and a $3K mortgage is no big deal. Amazing. I still scratch my head.

There are no collections of pins that I would want if I had a $3K monthly payment. None.

#57 8 months ago

If you are expecting a nice bonus and have been ok w the monthly payment why the sudden desire to pay off the mortgage? You are 46, still working, and the value of your asset is not impacted by having an outstanding loan. If it gives you peace of mind that’s important but financially speaking I would prefer to have it invested for long term growth/retirement income in a stock portfolio. Yes the value will fluctuate but over time you should be rewarded. I understand that people are taught to avoid debt but a 30 year mortgage is one of the greatest tools we can utilize. If you are getting enjoyment from all 17, keep them.

#58 8 months ago

Do what you want, but I'm 44 and debt free and it is a good feeling. As long as I pay my property taxes, they can't take my home.

#59 8 months ago

#60 8 months ago

Here's how I solve these problems in my world. I make a system that mimics my thoughts and feelings using my computer:
I made an Excel spreadsheet (no surprise).
I rated every machine in my collection based on 3 main categories (features/scarcity/emotional bond)

I. FEATURES: (Do I want to own this title, based on how much space/friend's space/money I want in a collection)
(1-40.)
I have 40 objective factors (does it have drop targets?, etc) and each factor has a weight.
This gives me an objective feature score for each game, and so all my games are ranked from 1-27 based on these 40 objective factors. (I don't get to choose the pecking order)
This helps me RATE the 27 games. (My Pinside ratings are "almost" parallel to this calculator I have created.

II. SCARCITY: (How easy to replace?)
I have a second calculator which tracks scarcity (high/medium/low) and a weight for each one.
1. Cabinet quality
2. Playfield quality
3. Price paid
4. Scarcity of item

III. EMOTIONAL BOND: (My feelings are parallel with time invested) Do I have an emotional tie? -- because when I look at the game, I can see all the great work I put into it, and it feels good
1. How much TIME do I have invested in this one? (~20hrs, ~50hrs, 80+hrs)

This system really helps me out. Based on it, I recently sold my first game ever (where a better copy didn't take its place), and I know which game is next on the totem pole. For your question, you are really only considering II. and III., since you have a TOP goal of paying off the house over keeping them all for now.

Only YOU know which games in your collection are hardest to replace in the current condition, and which ones you put a ton of time into. (and whether either of those factors matters to you)

Knowing nothing about your feelings, I would recommend making a spreadsheet and figure out if you have any really rare items, or items you put a ton of time into and take them off the list (or sell them to BEST friends who live nearby, so you can see your "babies" often. Keep (2-5) games for you. Then start selling off the moderns off ONE by ONE, and see how it feels.

Over time, you will know whether you care or not, and if/when too many is too many.

So you have several options:

1. do nothing
2. sell all at once and see how it feels after the fact
3. sell them off slowly and stop when it feels like the "right balance"

Also you can:
* sell them to friends with "first by-back" agreements in writing so that you at LEAST know that some games will come back to you in a few years if possible. I would trade that for a lower price any day...

-mof

#61 8 months ago

If you're done with the hobby, then do it (sell). Otherwise, I say don't do it.

If you enjoy playing the games and it's your temporary escape (is for me) from it all, then it makes no sense to sell the things that make you happy.

You have a nice collection and it sounds like everything is in great shape, so it's not always that easy to rebuild. Mark my word, if you sell, you'll be back...

#62 8 months ago

For example, under the new law. Lets say you paid 13k in mortgage interest and max out the 10k limit for local tax deductions. Thats 23k if you itemize, but you would take the 24k standard deduction instead. So essentially you are not getting a tax advantage on that 13k, might as well just pay it off.

#63 8 months ago

I do agree that it's sensible to pay off a home early because you save interest that would be paid for decades.. but some people are getting carried away with how much money would be saved in this instance..

The OP said that something like $98K would pay off the loan ($3K/Month) which computed to 3 years loan of $90K. 36 payments of $3K/month at 4.5% interest. The total amount saved would be $6900.

#64 8 months ago

Not even a decision for me, payoff your debt.
There’s nothing better than being debt free!

When you retire and have accumulated your assets, you’ll be in a financial position to do what you want.

Having no liabilities is a great feeling.

#65 8 months ago

No question here that I would. Not paying all that stupid interest is the big reason but for me, I'd belying if I didn't say I've been considering the same and just buying some early SS or EM's to have at home. I haven't done it as I'd still be short if I sold all my machines and my play toy car. Guess as I get older priorities start to change and having the toys just isn't filling that void anymore.

#66 8 months ago

I am 63 years old. I think I have lived through 3 or 4 crashes . There will be another one . The question is not if but when. Timing is the problem. In 2003 a professionally restored EM/SS game 2100 to 2500 . Even during the two crashes since then they did not drop that much . Today there around 3500.00 Muscle cars depending were 20 k totally restored same one today 44k .

I think a well done pinball machine has a floor . I doubt we will see a crash as bad as 2009 . Now Model T s are cheap . I think at some point the market for EM/SS will drop. As the old guys fade away .

Collectables , antiques , furniture ya never know. I always figure buy /keep something you enjoy . If you get back 50 % of what you paid you did good.

I passed on beach front San Diego , places in Venice would be worth millions now . But pinballs not so sure.

#67 8 months ago

Just paid off my house last spring and did it without selling anything out of the 75 pin collection, now granted I sold approximately 550 other pins but you can't keep them all, right? Refinancing the house was the key to it. Not to mention a few bucks off of those games helped too. I guess it depends on what you want more, debt free house with no games or a collection of nice games with a mortgage payment. The choice is yours.

John

#68 8 months ago

Man the memories you brought back reading your post. I remember thinking wow if I ever can make 10 bucks an hour I will be rich.
Many hard time later .

Today I earn base 97k shift premium 15 k Sunday pay 8 k , Holiday 4k
I can earn another 21k in overtime but I find myself burnt out

People say I am crazy buying machines. But my job led to my divorce . Stock mkt crashes wiped me out several times.

So I have Zero debt. I do own a flat , rented for 3 years for 900.00 month I live in the upper mortgage left is 113k .
Great famous area .
So I simply do not care what I spend. I figure I will work until 67 if I can make it.
Pension then will be 40k SS maximum .

#69 8 months ago
Quoted from WackyBrakke:

For example, under the new law. Lets say you paid 13k in mortgage interest and max out the 10k limit for local tax deductions. Thats 23k if you itemize, but you would take the 24k standard deduction instead. So essentially you are not getting a tax advantage on that 13k, might as well just pay it off.

Yes. Understood, but how many years do “you” have left on your mortgage with a $3000 payment and what is your balance? Or is it $100k left which would be a few years left?

If you don’t want to give out the right info it is really hard to get a proper “financial” answer. If you want to keep it private that is ok, but only an “emotional” answer could be given like - “if you aren’t playing them much then sell them and pay off the house” or “paying off your house can make you feel good”. Maybe emotional answer is what you are looking for and that is fine, but I would mention that in your posts though.

#70 8 months ago

If you don't have a lot of other bills I would do it. But keep my two favorites.
Thought about doing the same myself. But in reality, my wife racks up credit cards as fast as we can pay stuff off. (not on herself but for our daughters) So I figure we are going to die broke but at least I have my pins. The only good thing I have going is I still own the house I bought before we got married. I've been renting it out for the past 7 years and only have 8 more years till it's paid off.

#71 8 months ago

Pay off the mortgage, you can't live in a pinball machine!

#72 8 months ago
Quoted from swinks:

On the positive side it is a great feeling to officially payoff your house, and knowing it can’t be taken off you especially if you have a family.

Try not paying your property taxes and you'll find out that the house isn't yours and can definitely be taken. Even with a paid off home, we are basically renting it from the local government. That's how it works in the USA anyhow. I hate it myself but that's how it works.

#73 8 months ago

You know, right now you are paying $3K monthly mortgage. If you sell your pins and pay off the house you will able to put $3K per month in your pocket. You can start a nice collection with $3K per month play money. 3K = 36K annual. How many pins can you buy with $36K? And a paid for house.

#74 8 months ago
Quoted from PiNDoCToR:

Try not paying your property taxes ...

Yes I think he knows that, the diff'rence of paying a mortgage + prop tax and just prop tax.

#75 8 months ago
Quoted from PiNDoCToR:

Try not paying your property taxes and you'll find out that the house isn't yours and can definitely be taken. Even with a paid off home, we are basically renting it from the local government. That's how it works in the USA anyhow. I hate it myself but that's how it works.

You have to pay taxes. Get used to it. You drive on city streets that don't repair themselves. You have to fund a fire department. School taxes? I have never had any kids but I benefit when the neighborhood, the city, is loaded up with kids with educations. I don't mind paying to educate YOUR kids.

What stinks is when someone who lives in the country gets annexed by the city. And here come the taxes but you are still drinking well water and the fire department is still to far away to do you any good.

The other thing that stinks is when the city starts pissing money away for some 2nd rate piece of art or for endless studies to see a new street really needs to be approved.

Taxes are sort of like insurance. You don't have to pay, but you are a fool if you don't.

#76 8 months ago

There are a lot of variables to consider in answering a question like this. I think I remember reading in another thread that you buy failing businesses and break them up for the residual value (could be thinking of someone else with "wacky" in their name!). That doesn't seem to be a paycheck to paycheck kind of job. You also have a pinball collection worth upwards of $100k. You have a mortgage that's $3000/mo. You don't say how much you still owe or how long you've been paying that (none of my business and I don't care), but you also don't say that this has been a burden.

These individual pieces don't mean anything by themselves, but put them together and I get a picture of someone that isn't worried about anyone taking away their house. To me, this question boils down to what else could you do with the money. The mortgage interest is no longer gaining you any tax advantage, but it's also not a significant outlay. If you can take the $100k (or whatever the payoff total is) and do something with it that earns you at least 5% (given your 4.5% rate), you're better off than using it to payoff your mortgage. If you can't, then eliminating your mortgage is a good idea.

Having said that, since you're in Denver, let me know if you decide to sell!!

#77 8 months ago
Quoted from oldskool1969:

Pay off the mortgage, you can't live in a pinball machine!

that is not s choice he is facing. He's not asking if he should sell his pinball machines *or* sell his house. He can still live in his house and have his pinball machines.

I don't understand what this type of response means, like you are saying sell your pinball machines because or else you won't have anywhere to live.

#78 8 months ago
Quoted from rai:

that is not s choice he is facing. He's not asking if he should sell his pinball machines *or* sell his house....

Why is everyone so damn literal right now? Unless this was a joke and I'm being too literal aboot what you're typing

Jeez it's spreading!

#79 8 months ago

Why not just sell your car? I’m assuming it’s pretty nice.

#80 8 months ago

Keep 3 games ... that's more than enough pinball to keep one happy, then sell the rest and pay off house... no better feeling than having those payments disappear!

#81 8 months ago

Debt free, is a great feeling, try it..at least once. In no time you can change that back.

#82 8 months ago

... Keep a few, sell the rest to me

#83 8 months ago
Quoted from desertT1:

How long ago was this? I think that would be a pretty fun trip to the bank, but honestly, I can pay it off on the ap on my phone, and I might be lazy enough to do that when the day comes instead of driving 25 minutes to the nearest WF.

It was in October 2015. Oh boy was it fun! If you do it online you miss all WOWs from the bank employees! The feeling was the same one I got when I graduated college. You have to bask in that moment!

#84 8 months ago

Sell, Sell, Sell !!!
With all the pinball coming in years to come market will be Flooded with plenty of used pins.

#85 8 months ago
Quoted from rai:

that is not s choice he is facing. He's not asking if he should sell his pinball machines *or* sell his house. He can still live in his house and have his pinball machines.
I don't understand what this type of response means, like you are saying sell your pinball machines because or else you won't have anywhere to live.

I think you read too much into it.

#86 8 months ago
Quoted from rai:

Of course the interest is deductible, but when *I* lose out on State and Local taxes that *were deductible* before but are no longer with the new tax law. Then it no longer pays to itemize because there is not anything to deduct can't get over the standard deduction. IOW if I had home interest loans I could throw that on top of State and Local taxes. So now interest and property tax are no longer valuable deductions for many people, we can not reach the level to be able to itemize.

So what? You have a higher standard deduction AND income is taxed at MUCH lower marginal tax rates.

Bottom line, don't let the tax tail wag the dog. Get the mortgage you can afford at 15 yrs or less. Period.

I bet you had no idea you'd get all this advice Wacky! You know what's right for you.

#87 8 months ago

I assume if considering this move you have maxed out on tax deferred income 401k's etc. Also, I would hope you have a diversified investment account and some liquidity isn't bad either. I would not sell everything lock stock and barrel. If you do you will miss us here.

#88 8 months ago

There are theoretical and academic discussions about math, interest rates, investing and tax implications to be had here, but most issues involving money are based on emotion.

As some others have stated, there is a peace of mind that cannot be matched when you don’t have any debt. Yes there are always monthly bills, expenses and taxes, but not having ongoing payments (house, car, student loans, whatever) is a thing of economic beauty. Amount due 0. Amount to pay off loan 0. YTD interest paid 0. Past due amount 0.

I don’t know anyone who has ever gotten out of debt or paid off a house say they miss having the loan or the mortgage.

Best of success and happiness whatever you decide.

#89 8 months ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

Hey Mike Hi Five! I did this exact thing In 2017. Had 17 fully intended to sell all of them. At the last minute I kept Two and sold 15. They were gone in a week and generated $84,000. I paid off my primary and secondary mortgages (not with just the money from the machines) and now I am debt free. Don't think twice man just do it!

Does the irs wonder where 84k shows up from? They never worry about the cash leaving the bank, but they usually wonder where it comes from in large amounts.

#90 8 months ago
Quoted from jake35:

Does the irs wonder where 84k shows up from? They never worry about the cash leaving the bank, but they usually wonder where it comes from in large amounts.

They sure do... i deposited 8 k last week and they asked many questions.... super annoying.

#91 8 months ago
Quoted from iceman44:

That's crazy Wacky!
First of all the mortgage interest is still 100% deductible up to a $750k mortgage. Property taxes are limited to $10k
Keep a few pins, sell the rest and pay off the house.
Contrary to what some people might think, most people's taxes will be LOWER when you go to file your return for 2018. It's called a "tax cut". Many more $$$ in the 22% and 24% brackets that were previously in the 25% bracket last year which doesn't exist anymore.
Yes, 4.55% is too high. Never finance a 30 yr mtg. 10-15 yr max . If people can't afford it on those terms, don't buy it.

Gotta go with this. Do whats's fiscally comfortable to you, but that interest seems high. Enjoy the journey, if it means no mortgage and better sleep, do it, if you think it will zero your debt, don't. $$$ just a tool. Can promise you (from experience) that other expenses arise..some can be bad if health-related.

Maybe just a partial payoff, followed w a short, fixed term for less %.
I admire your willingness to post this on here, makes everyone stop and think, I suppose.

Mine all leave when I don't enjoy the hobby anymore...don't really factor into my exit plan....

#92 8 months ago

Do what you need to do.....we are all mostly strangers to you---Advice,Ideas,Etc.,Etc. are to be taken with discretion on your part !!

Seriously this is your business and not what needs to be on The World Wide Web unless you lack the knowledge and ability----Family is what is important in the end...………..get a will made out before the State gets involved.

#93 8 months ago

Do it! Live like no one else. Listen to Dave Ramsey for inspiration!

#94 8 months ago

You have a mortgage at 4.5% and you have $100k in pinballs? So $4.5k of interest a year in pinball, maybe little less with deductions. You have to play those pins at least 300 times a month to break even- I’m being generous here, if you wouldn’t go out and play $400 worth of pinball somewhere every month, you aren’t breaking even. Not counting depreciation, maintenance,..
That is a huge investment in pinball. I guess it’s better then a Porsche, or is it?
I’d rather be debt free and going crazy at the bar/arcade a couple times a month.

#95 8 months ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

They sure do... i deposited 8 k last week and they asked many questions.... super annoying.

spot on there.....cash moving in or out generates paperwork nowadays...think it's more a bank thing than IRS, however, everyone is sharing...

#96 8 months ago
Quoted from jake35:

Does the irs wonder where 84k shows up from? They never worry about the cash leaving the bank, but they usually wonder where it comes from in large amounts.

I have thought about that a lot. Does the IRS come calling and demanding an income tax on that $84K? Did you keep all of your receipts through the years? Did you even get a receipt or a bill of sale when you acquired all of those pins? Will the IRS consider your cost basis to be zero? Did you bill yourself for all of the hours you worked on them?

A friend of mine owned a '77 Vette. He then opened up a Corvette shop and got a dealer's license. Then he sold the Vette and recorded the sale on the books. He sold it for $6,000.00 but since he did not do any paper work and actually sell it to the shop, the IRS considered his cost basis to be zero and he had to show the full $6K of the sale as income. Trouble is that he paid 6K for it so he did not make a dime but got to eat the tax.

How would that work if you sold a lot of 10 pins for thousands and did it by bank wire?

#97 8 months ago
Quoted from PiNDoCToR:

Try not paying your property taxes and you'll find out that the house isn't yours and can definitely be taken. Even with a paid off home, we are basically renting it from the local government. That's how it works in the USA anyhow. I hate it myself but that's how it works.

Our local government charges land rates (based on your land value) which here in my area varies depending how close you are to the lake or ocean but generally $1.5-$3k a year over 4 installments with mine being $1.6k a year = $133 a month. Our land rates contribute to the roads and infrastructure of the area. I think it would be very extreme to be kicked out in our circumstances and would be denied services like weekly rubbish pickups etc.

Australia's average mortgage repayment varies between $1500 to $3000 per month for an average house so not having to pay amotgage allows you to then get toys and put some into savings.

#98 8 months ago

I say keep the games, life is short. There will ALWAYS be expenses and obligations - the wolf at the door as it were. Kids going to school...or other (take care of elderly parent, etc). Stock market meltdowns. Divorces, etc...Selling those machines, buying back machines and moving them in...what a pain...

(Assuming you're playing them at least 5 hours a week): unless your job is very insecure, keep the games and live life. One day, hopefully down the road...something bad will get you. It's a mathematical certainty.

When your mortgage term comes up again, negotiate something better. For 100k you should be able to amortize over a longer period of time, get a decent interest rate. You shouldn't be paying that amount of interest on 100k IMO.

#99 8 months ago

This is no brainer, sell half the games and payoff half the debt. You cannot play all 15 games at once anyway. Why does it always have to be all or nothing, it’s in the middle where we find compromise and contentment. Great collection!

#100 8 months ago

Keep all of the pins. You only live once!

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