(Topic ID: 131201)

There are good women in pinball

By Curtis_Playfield

4 years ago

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  • 673 posts
  • 147 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by robin
  • Topic is favorited by 10 Pinsiders


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#60 4 years ago

I think this issue is overblown.

I've been in plenty of "male-minority" situations and when they start giggling over pics of Hugh Jackman in boxers, or talking about what they like or don't like in a penis, or when they went nuts when the Magic Mike XXL trailer came on before Mad Max, it's like whatever. They aren't trying to make me uncomfortable, they just see something they like and are celebrating that. If they were telling me I shouldn't be allowed to go to college, or drive, or that I'm just a sperm donor, *then* I'd feel grounds to be offended. I don't ever feel there's anything wrong with celebrating beautiful people, or hell, even ugly ones if that's your thing.

I'm also afraid I don't see the need for this thread. I've seen people thank blondetall for her efforts here as a mod. I've seen people praise phoebe's backglass work. I've never seen people dismiss or diminish the volunteer efforts of women at the various venues and events I've seen. If I was seeing that, combined with nothing but boob pics, I could understand the upset. I could understand the conclusion that pinside is just a case of objectification and nothing more. Sorry, not seeing that.

Now, are there jerks out there? Oh hell yes. And I hate to pop anyone's balloon, some of them are women. The difference is I don't think it's fair to indict an entire forum or an entire gender for the actions of a few. Deal with the jerks: put them on your ignore list, tilt the thread, drain the thread, alert a mod. For every jerk I've encountered (again, men or women included), I can give you 50 nice people who had nothing to do with that guy.

I appreciate the efforts of ALL the people, men/women/gay/straight/etc, who have helped pinball be what it is, and if you're cute, I'll appreciate that too. It's all good.

#102 4 years ago
Quoted from Maken:

Men like to joke around. Women are sensitive. Welcome to Earth.

Right, and if I went to the Warrior's victory parade wearing a Cav's jersey I wouldn't have gotten my face smashed in.

Everyone gets emotional.

#103 4 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

It's kinda hard to parse honestly.

It was sort of like reading Naked Lunch.

#104 4 years ago
Quoted from stainedundies:

At TPF they gave out cash prizes for every tournament except women's... That's fucked up.

Quoted from Ed_in_Texas:

It did not cost anything to enter the woman's tourney at TPF. Women that played in the Wizard's tournament (along with the men and for IFPA points and an equal opportunity to win a cash prize) were also qualifying for the women's tournament at no additional cost (even Kid's tournament had an entry fee).
In 2016, TPF will have a stand alone women's tourney with it's own cash prizes.

This is precisely the problem of "over-moderation" or jumping on the bandwagon: automatically assuming victim-hood without all the facts. If the goal is an equal playing field and respect for all, then the same burden of proof should be our cultural expectation regardless of gender. A comment like that is offensive, and disparages the efforts of those who put in the long hours to run the tournaments at TPF, and it should not get a pass, or "true until proven incorrect" status, because the assumed victim happens to be women, or any other <insert group here>.

#126 4 years ago
Quoted from presqueisle:

People say, "there's only a few bad eggs who ruin it etc..". But when it's in a thread where many people are commenting, and it's ignored and no one speaks against it, then the complacent are also to blame. The women see that, and we all get piled in to the same heap of dog sh!t. I would be embarrassed when my name would be in a thread like that, so I'd say something. Some people have no empathy. Y'all need to see a shrink about that, and I hope you don't have girlfriends, wives or daughters.

This is way too general. Commenting about what, specifically? Maybe provide a specific example.

If it's posting of pics of women, it's not me not speaking up out of apathy. I'm simply not offended nor do I see those images as insulting to women. Post pics of Hugh Jackman, I wouldn't care about that either - the guy is a so-so actor who has largely made it on his looks, i.e. his objectified beauty.

I even floated the idea to a photog friend of mine of doing a nude/semi-nude male pinball calendar because there are a lot of pins in gay/leather bars around here and I think it could make some bucks.

If it's some specific comment someone said, it's possible I never saw it. I have around 40 people in my ignore list.

If you, personally, are offended by something, is it fair to indict others who "don't speak up"? Perhaps they simply are not offended as you are?

#128 4 years ago
Quoted from stainedundies:

Nope, I had all the facts before posting, the point is that at some point in time a decision was made that the women's tourney wouldn't be allowed to build its own separate prize pool (like every other tourney). Anyway you cut it, that's exclusion. I'm not trying to over moderate anyone, I'm not jumping on a bandwagon, im simply pointing out something I was witness to that I disagree with. Every tourney at TPF was designed to be a massive cash grab, except the women's, which I believe is due to more than just an inconvenient coincidence. Which leads me back to my original point: that's fucked up.

"Wasn't allowed"? Seems like a strong way to describe it. Were people trying to convince those running it to make it a pay-to-play and told "no, because they're women"? I'm not deliberately poking - I'm honestly asking about the particulars of the decision.

And how exclusive is the situation when they're also allowed to enter the main tournaments, open to all, and compete for cash prizes?

#143 4 years ago
Quoted from Jam_Burglar:

It's very easy for you not to be offended when you are not the target. When multiple women start stepping up and saying they are offended, then a decent person stops. If this was a forum about defining what it and isn't sexist, racist, etc. maybe you'd have a point about being censored, but it's not. Think about it, this forum is about pinball not about the freedom to post skin pics. Maybe I like to talk about religion and abortion rights a lot and I don't want you telling me I can't, but since this forum is about pinball maybe the decent thing to do is not continue to engage in something that isn't even on topic and that I know is going to alienate others.

As I said a few posts back, I am not offended when I'm the so-called target given similar situations I've seen on pinside with the roles reversed, including some lewd talk and pics. Mainly because, how is it that a woman posting a picture of Hugh Jackman is targeting
ME? I don't feel threatened or intimidated by what other people find attractive. It's that simple.

Point being, everyone has their own sensibilities. People raising the issue and claiming to be offended is certainly grounds to raise the issue for discussion, but in my view is not a defacto case that something is offensive or proof of misogyny. That's why I asked for more details from others.

As for off-topic content, that I agree with. If the subject matter is too off topic, lock the thread, drain the thread, etc.

#154 4 years ago
Quoted from Jam_Burglar:

I see what you're saying but keep in mind that just because you're not offended doesn't mean that others are being unreasonable because they are offended by something that doesn't offend you. Men and women really aren't similarly situated in our society and we often don't see things the same way. The decent, friendly, thing to do when people are reasonably saying they are offended is to stop engaging in whatever you are doing in front of them. It doesn't mean you have to stop looking at scantily clad women, it just means it would "cool" of you would refrain from doing it in front of them.
The venue and the context here is very important. This isn't a Chris Rock concert where people are paying to see him and then get offended and complain. This isn't a public street. This is privately run forum and the owner is saying "please don't do that on my forum, I want women to feel comfortable here".

That's a fair point, but don't put words in my mouth. I'm not saying others are being unreasonable for having a different viewpoint than me. I'm asking the question "Is this offensive? If the roles were reversed, would it still be offensive?" I'm asking if decisions were summarily made not based on reasoned analysis and fairness, but on emotional sentiments related to gender. The latter never leads to what some people claim to want: equality. It just throws the balance out of whack in some other direction.

Additionally, pinside has plenty of tools to block users and content we personally find offensive, because at the end of the day, we all have a personal standard. And we have the mods for escalation beyond that. I've blocked a lot of numbskulls in the past, and since getting in the habit of doing that, there have been heated threads where as many as five posts in a row showed up as "Ignored user" on my screen. Suddenly, pinside became a lot less like RGP for me.

#160 4 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

faulty premise. men occupy a dominant role here already (whether you choose to interpret "here" as Pinside or Pinball or even popular culture generally). the atmosphere is unwelcoming and hostile towards women, as several women have attested to in this thread, but men don't want to hear that. they want to pretend the fact that they occupy an incredibly dominant, overrepresented role here is irrelvant, when in fact it is basically the point.
of course there is very little a woman poster could do or say here to make you feel threatened or offended, because your position is super secure, and you feel generally like you belong here and are welcomed and your interests catered to all day long. it's a very different experience for a woman. you can't just flip it around like a mirror because the two experiences are not symmetrical.

You read a follow-on to a previous post. In an earlier post I mentioned examples where I, as a male, have been in situations (outside of pinside) where I was in the minority and experienced the kind of talk, pictures, etc. that are making some uncomfortable.

Men occupy a dominant role on pinside because of sheer numbers. (I empathize with how that feels. I worked at a company, for example, where I was one of three men out of 150 staff.) But sheer numbers don't paint the automatic conclusion that men are purposely or maliciously keeping women out, or that racy pics = misogyny, or that men hold some extra power here, any more than the sheer numbers of that work environment was clear proof they hated men. On forums where the ratio is closer to 50/50, do I see the same kind of "uncomfortable" talk and racy pics from women? Yup. When I was on the retrocrush forum - a site about past and present pop culture - I saw it all the time. If Hugh Jackman gets shut down by the mods and Christina Hendricks gets a pass, *that* is hostile. That is unfair.

If pinside wants to be more family friendly across the board, I'm fine with that. What bothers me is when individuals encounter something that *personally* offends them and their friends, and then rather than just not click those threads or block users, say the whole forum needs to change, and elevate a personal preference to one of a gender-vs-gender issue.

#275 4 years ago
Quoted from guyincognito:

That sure does sound like harassment to me. It sucks that you had to deal with it.
I'm not aware that particular sort of harassament exists on Pinside? (Although I don't read nearly as many threads as a moderator does.)
I smile at old people, little children and dogs. They usually smile back, but if they don't I just continue on. Except for the dogs. I stop to pet them.
When you do hear about unwanted harassment, you do hear a lot about guys telling girls to smile. Seems odd that you'd tell anyone what to do, but maybe it's a generational or culture thing?
» YouTube video

Exactly. Stuff like this sucks, but being harassed at work, in a bar, at the zoo, etc. etc. doesn't mean we need special rules on a pinball forum.

I had an office stalker. English was not her first language so while she grammar-checked the hell out of everything she sent me, it was still pretty obvious. It never got threatening so I never had to report it to HR, and I'm really glad for that. She was married with two kids and it would suck if she lost her job.

A manager of another department was harassing me. He was constantly playing little mind games. One time he yelled at me over the phone and I hung up on him. Of course, he called back. My manager was right over the pony wall of my cube and I said, "Hey Janet", then answered via speaker phone. Of course, he kept right on yelling, so I hung up again, but my manager heard it. He then comes over to her office, and now he's sweet as pie, not realizing she heard everything. "I don't know why Jon doesn't like me. All I want is some help..."

Point being, I've technically been a victim of both sexual and non-sexual harassment in the work place. It sucks, and I feel for anyone who goes through it, but would it be valid for me to expect changes on this forum because of that?

#276 4 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

it IS saying "dance for me". it's saying your own personal space is my decoration and your private inner mood is my right to invade uninvited. the chances of a dude doing that to another dude are LESS THAN ZERO. she gave every possible indication that she did not want his opinion or input and it was HIM that eventually got hostile when she didn't submit to his commands for attention and subservience. if you can't see that from her story then i am just disheartened that some people can be so blind to what it's like being a woman, even after it's been so explicitly, carefully and unemotionally explained.

That's BS. When I did a lot of customer service I would get told to "smile" all the time by men and women.

#277 4 years ago

Instructional video:


#281 4 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

I suppose that's the best way to maintain the position that sexism is all in peoples heads. Literally ignore anyone that points out otherwise.

lol nice ad hominem.

Uh, no. Believe it or not, not everyone agrees with you on what constitutes sexism. Everyone has their personal standard. So, if your personal standard is in sharp disagreement with another person's, ignore them. If you can't come to agreement with another person, given the option, the mature thing is to turn your attention elsewhere, which is what the Ignore User tool allows you do very easily.

#282 4 years ago
Quoted from swampfire:

This thread was on-topic (good/great women in pinball) until jonnyo and Xenon took it down this stupid "PC" rathole (go back to page 1 if you don't believe me).
Let's here it for more great women in pinball: Gary Stern must have had a mom, right?

Yes, disagreeing is "taking it down this stupid "PC" rathole." I forgot that you lose the right to disagree when it comes to topics like these. Thanks for the reminder sir.

#287 4 years ago
Quoted from pezpunk:

There are instances where reasonable people can disagree on what is and isn't sexist. Blondetall's story is absolutely not one of them. It's a story of a creepy weirdo acting in an unambiguously sexist manner. To deny that is to deny that sexism has ever or ever could exist. I mean we are not talking about someone whining about some perceived minor slight.

I was not disagreeing with Blondetall's story. I was disagreeing with this statement, based on my own experiences in customer service:

"it IS saying "dance for me". it's saying your own personal space is my decoration and your private inner mood is my right to invade uninvited. the chances of a dude doing that to another dude are LESS THAN ZERO."

You then took a few logical leaps and came to the conclusion "SEXISM!!!" That's your problem, not mine.

You can have the last word, sir. Clearly we are never going to see eye to eye and I don't see any point in discussing this with you further.

#325 4 years ago
Quoted from cait001:

yes, because "misandry" is a bullshit idea. That is why everyone either doesn't know what it means, or makes fun of it.

Just wow.

#327 4 years ago
Quoted from yonkiman:

Here's one lesson that men could have learned from Pinside's past: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/nor-cal-pinheads-thread/page/26
Jonnyo made a poster to promote an event, the poster had some sex jokes which on the surface seemed similar to the jokes in a poster for an all-girl tournament ("No balls required", "Move it Sausage", "BOOBS" and "BYOBoobs"), and there was backlash from some people who were offended. I don't for a second think Jonnyo's a bad guy or meant to be divisive, it's just that like millions of guys (everywhere and on pinside) I don't think he fundamentally understood why this sort of talk is a problem. So I tried to explain it in a way that might help guys understand it better:

I like to think that helped change the perspective of at least a *few* people...

I didn't make a poster, just a few in-kind jokes similar to the ones in their poster.

And yes, it was a double standard and I stand by everything I said. You do not get a free pass because you claim some sort of victim status. I'm filipino, mexican,and a quarter polish and have heard everything from jokes to active discrimination. Doesn't mean I get to make jokes at other's expense if I'm not willing to receive it in kind.

Which I am. I thought "move it sausage" was funny. What wasn't funny was when they could make a joke but not take one.

#349 4 years ago
Quoted from Law:

No, it was messed up, along with most things regarding tournaments at the TPF. As far as I know (and I talked about it with a few of the ladies in the tournament) everyone was expecting cash prizes. When you asked any of the help if all of the tournaments had cash prizes, they said yes. As I stated before, there were a number of women that only entered the wizards tourney because it was required to enter the women's. The whole thing might have been fine if it was messaged the way Marcus and Ed are explaining it now, but it wasn't.
Besides that, the "no entry fee" excuse is crap. The organizers of that tournament walked away with thousands of dollars in entry fees in excess of what it took to organize the event.
At the end of the day, did the setup make the winners of the women's event feel like they were second-class citizens and that their tournament was less meaningful than the 12-and-under? At least for some, it did. That is the problem.

A misunderstanding and/or poor communication doesn't make the case for discrimination. And since those who ran the event have clarified their intents on the matter it's obvious that wasn't their intent either. Clinging to it being otherwise is not a matter of fairness but of trying to prove victimhood in the face of the facts.

#351 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I'm not sure there is any actual **lesson** there.
So 3 people were offended and did not attend? Good, those people are probably not mature enough to be out in the wild.
I'm a Jew. There are tons of jokes at the expense of Jews on HBO shows. Even if I'm somehow offended by a joke, am I going to cancel HBO??? Of course not.
A comedian on HBO says:
So I'm stuck at a wedding seated between a Rabbi and a Priest.
A 5 year old boy bends over to tie his shoe in front of us.
The Priest leans over to us and says "Wow, I like to screw that kid."
The Rabbi shrugs and asks "Out of what?"
Am I offended, hell no.
There will always be somebody offended by something. That does not mean there is anything wrong.

In addition to those three a few female friends of mine didn't attend for the opposite reason, which was that their husbands or BFs were not allowed to even be there to cheer them on.

#363 4 years ago
Quoted from Craig:

Are there any bad women in pinball? (I'm not asking for names!) I've never met one.

LOL I have.

#378 4 years ago
Quoted from Law:

If there was no issue they wouldn't be changing the format for next year.

The issue is that enough people expressed the desire to play for money and not have the women's tourney be a free bonus format for entering the main, so they're changing to what people prefer.

I can't even believe people are complaining about this or holding it up as some kind of example. They enter the same tourney as everyone else and have the same shot at the wpprs and money as everyone, AND get a free bonus event as well. But because that event wasn't what they wanted, it's sexism? Wow.

Like the other person, go ahead and have the last word. It's futile to debate anything with someone who is convinced that women can only be victims. I have too high an opinion of women to see them that way.

#396 4 years ago
Quoted from cait001:

Yup, downvoted by the dudes who think misandry is a serious thing. Of course. OK, bye.

Your posts have made a pretty strong case for it.

#513 4 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Man or woman, you're being a jerk.
I know racism, I know homophobia, and I know misogyny. I don't approve of any of them.
If you push away all of your allies, all you will have left are enemies. Sleep on it.

At some point when you try to reach consensus with people you eventually reach the conclusion that some don't want consensus, or equal treatment, or a fair examination of the facts, or any of that. All of their claims of unfair treatment are a red herring for what they really want, which is to win, or to complain ad infinitum, or to get others to dance on strings. Same as any internet troll.

So they come on here and spew their garbage, and when you try to engage them in actual discussion, they say, "that's not my responsibility". Then what are they doing here? What an unbelievably childish outlook on life. If someone complains about something and can't even be bothered to discuss, describe and debate that complaint like an adult, why should I feel bothered to change on behalf of an obviously lazy human being? What ego!

When I sense that in other people the only smart thing to do is shut them down or walk away. Nothing you do, say or change will ever satisfy them. Mark my words, these same people will be back in short order to complain about some other perceived offense. They're energized by being offended, and having nothing to complain about is a fate worse than death.

#516 4 years ago
Quoted from guyincognito:

Are there any anatomical differences in women that would exclude women from pinball?
I'm asking for a friend.

I can speak to this, a little.

For the most part, "no". In decently set up tournaments the tilts will be tight enough that physical strength to nudge the machine is not usually a factor, but for "big" moves, like a slide save, maybe. Bear in mind, I'm talking physically about an "average man" vs an "average woman".

However, I did notice one difference. A local player showed me how she can't hold the corners of the game and reach the flipper buttons at the same time. For most nudges, she has to take her fingers off the flippers. That could create a slight disadvantage.

#521 4 years ago
Quoted from cait001:

You can go on crying until you are blue in the fave, reassuring everyone that nope, everything is a OK, nothing to see here. It is downright embarrassing to watch you stick your head in sand repeatedly but ahh well, such is the way of the lazy status quo that obviously read nothing in this thread.
Good job, carry on, pat yourself on the back for having learnt absolutely nothing by sticking your fingers in your ears and chanting like a child.
Good riddance.

First, I'm not crying, just stating my position.

Second, I never said "everything is okay". I said tell me how it's not okay and we'll go from there. Plenty of others have too. If you want to call that "sticking my head in the sand", that's your business. I call it "not being a mindless sheep who automatically accepts the blame when someone comes out of the woodwork crying about being offended", and I have absolutely no reason to feel embarrassed by challenging you to discuss and debate.

#539 4 years ago
Quoted from DarthXaos:

Funny enough, some of a certain poster in this thread's turns of phrase are indicative of their membership in a particular hybrid movement of internet trolls and political radicals known as SRS.

No, those turns of phrase are used by every 14 year-old with a Tumblr account.

Quoted from jwilson:

... And scene.
I'd like to thank our players, cait001 and Wolfmarsh, for acting out a typical interaction between a creepy dude on the internet and a woman.

To be fair, creepy dude on the internet and a troll.

#649 4 years ago
Quoted from tamoore:

You have women telling you that they don't feel comfortable here. They tell you that it's the behavior of the people in this community that makes them feel this way.
You aren't at liberty to disagree with that.

We have *some* women saying that. And there are *some* who might be making them feel that way (as yet, haven't seen the proof)

And we have no right to disagree?

Then you have no right to disagree with me saying you're wrong.

#658 4 years ago
Quoted from cait001:

It is also an extremely weak argument, instead of debating the actual issues you want to issue challenges and inquisitions in to aspects of various people's lives.

You have not debated any issues. You've only thrown blanket statements and general assertions. When asked, or when people were willing to debate you point-to-point, you've deflected or "shamed", or claimed others are sticking their heads in the sand.

You don't even realize you're making the best case for the men around here to realize they had no reason to feel guilty. Cause, yes, there are hateful women out there with an axe to grind.

Good work.

#666 4 years ago
Quoted from cait001:

You do not have any basis to disagree with the women who are saying that, no. They are saying what they are feeling, and your are working to invalidate that. The fact that this has gone on for SO. LONG. is astonishing.
You absolutely have the right to disagree. By all means, disagree away, but please temper varied arguments against what that which has been flung our way for millennia. "might makes right" has never served us well.

I'm not working to invalidate others' feelings. Feelings are valid. Feelings do not equal facts.

I'm questioning whether those feelings reflect facts and a substantive basis for any kind of systematic discrimination around here. How long it's supposedly "gone on" is irrelevant to your point. This is not twenty years ago, or thirty or even five. This is today.

Make your case, with facts, and show the evidence, or stop accusing an entire gender and forum. Stop saying "It is" because you "feel" that way. Prove "It is".

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