(Topic ID: 40063)

Theory on why pinball prices have risen


By BradLinden

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 130 posts
  • 81 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by OrochiLeona
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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Topic poll

“My PRIMARY influence in pre-ordering WOZ was...”

  • Investment/Value related 39 votes
    35%
  • Fun/Pinball related 74 votes
    65%

(113 votes by 0 Pinsiders)

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There are 130 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 6 years ago
Quoted from chas010:

Bottom line people who play pinball aren't very bright, sorry but someone had to say it....

i am so crazy that today i got myself a brand new ac/dc!!!

i'm sick people...

#52 6 years ago

Argue with me how its smart to pay 12k for a MM. I must have missed your superior logic from this brain trust.

#53 6 years ago

I think both options are true: you want a pinball because it's fun and you love pinball, and you're willing to pay (a lot?) more than you normally would for a pinball, because it keeps its value (or you suspect it'll even rise in value).

#54 6 years ago

I think the excellent quality of games like Williams Arcade Classics for Wii, PS3, 360 etc and pinball simulators on cell phones has reignited a lot of people's interest as well as young people who didn't grow up playing, but now want a machine of their own.
This may have added to the increase in popularity and surge in prices of featured games with a trickle-down effect to all the other titles out there that people discover when they look a bit deeper into the culture.

#55 6 years ago

Beating this topic to death.

Study the graph at the top of the page. Prices are going to go up, as the number of machines sold declines. It will head that direction for a long long time as far as machines that are no longer produced.
http://www.bostonpinball.biz/ebay0512.htm

#56 6 years ago

Correlation is not causation.

#57 6 years ago

Pinball machines and houses always increase in value...right?

#58 6 years ago
Quoted from swampfire:

Pinball machines and houses always increase in value...right?

Oooh, I know this one. Yes! In fact, my house is worth more than it was a year ago.

#59 6 years ago

JJP raised the bar with features and price and Stern followed with both and as a consequence We are getting better more featured pins that cost more.A lot of this is because there is a market for these souped up pins and a bigger hobby/collector share of sales..

#60 6 years ago
Quoted from Goonie:

! In fact, my house is worth more than it was a year ago.

Mine is too,but worth less than it was in 2008,even though building a new house (with comparable features)cost more than ever in my area anyway.

#61 6 years ago

Because I want to maintain a small collection growing to 4 or 5 pins eventually, I am willing to pay for quality. My LOTR will be joined by WOZ ECLE and TH LE. The other slots will remain open for now, giving me some flexibility down the road. My game room will be maxed out at 4 or 5, and I like having the ability to buy a game without having to sell one first.

Post edited by txstargazer3 : Forgot a word!

#62 6 years ago
Quoted from chas010:

Argue with me how its smart to pay 12k for a MM. I must have missed your superior logic from this brain trust.

Well if you could sell for 18k in a couple years it certainly wouldn't be dumb. Betting on an MM rising in value is probably a better bet than the stock market (unless you have some inside information).

2 weeks later
#63 6 years ago
Quoted from Collin:

I think it's a mix of factors. Mainly:
-The BBB factor / perceived potential scarcity
-Potential high Return On Investment
-Growth of the market for DMD pins - people who grew up with the 90s games now have our big-kid jobs and can afford them in the first place
-Visibility of Pinball; the new Sterns are leading to pins showing up in places they wouldn't have 10 years ago (but would have 20 years ago.) Call it a new pin renaissance (despite Stern's poor quality.) in part due to the fact that locations can have these games brand new.
-Improvements in the economy

ok, was with you until the "improvements in the economy" thing. dec had negative growth which in itself is disturbing since it is usually a time for the economy to do well, followed by squeaking out a positive number of .1% for january. if it was 2 months negative its considered a recession! gas prices are thru the roof and it is a record price average for feb. the fed is printing money to the tune of $85,000,000,000 a MONTH until they think they dont have to, longest time unemployment numbers are this high, more people out of the work force than any other time in our history (Q6?), record food stamp participation, record welfare recipients, record ss disability payments, and on and on. within that rant (sorry) we see that the real reason pins might be so high now are the inflationary patterns of our money is making costs very high for manufacturers and the devaluation of our dollar. in times like these we see similar price ramps in anything collectible , esp art. so pinball is just art!

#64 6 years ago

I personally think prices are in a bubble. Why? The same reason why everything else is starting to rise. Inflation. Money is being printed at such a fast rate ($85 Billion) per month that our fiat currency is losing value by the day. I personally think the economy is going to tank (Govt. Debt, Dollar Bubble, Private Debt) and when it goes it MAY take these middle class collectors with them. So when it comes to the decision of purchasing a $35k MM or putting food on the table, you may find that some of these collectors may have to sell, and at higher rates causing the prices to drop. Given that there are buyers with enough currency to purchase them from the sellers. Nothing ever goes up forever... Basic economics. Just my 2 cents.

#65 6 years ago

The classics are going up because of all the hoarders-like me(:

#66 6 years ago

attach

Hoarders_.jpg

#67 6 years ago

Simple because Stern JJP and others are setting prices so high on okay games so the good to great games are in much more demand

#69 6 years ago

Speaking as a kid that played in the 90s I truly think we are finally able to afford these games. We got into to the market late and our interest is further drying up supply.

#70 6 years ago
Quoted from chas010:

The only machined part in a game is the coil plunger the rest is stamped steel.

wow....i wasn't aware the boards were made with hammers and glue......thanks for clearing this up for me........the elves at the north pole really deserve props for building all us little kids pinball games without using any machinery at all.......nothing more than x-mas magic!!!!!.....wait a minute....is the hammer they are using stamped,rolled or milled????......those little sneaky Fers.

#71 6 years ago
Quoted from Collin:

people who grew up with the 90s games now have our big-kid jobs and can afford them in the first place

I agree that this is something that is happening with me and my peers. Although I just purchased my first pin in mid-life, I've always wanted one. I grew up in the early 80's where pins and arcades were in one spot. Now we're older and we want the big toys that are a reflection of what we recall from our youth.

I have a friend that purchased a 70's Camaro. I have another friend that purchased vintage DJ equipment.

Brings back good memories and can now (by purchase) literally touch the past.

my two cents

#72 6 years ago

"Seventeen thousand! Those guys must really be desperate. This could really save my neck. Get back to the ship, and get 'er ready."

#73 6 years ago

The biggest factor (and probably the only relevant one) is the large number of new collectors entering the hobby and buying up machines (demand = up, supply = down). Prices will continue to rise or at the least plateau (relative to inflation) over the next many years and are not likely to go down. In 30-40 years, when all of the last people to grow up with pinball die off, interest will wane, and prices will finally go down again.

#74 6 years ago

simple supply and demand...bubble will burst sooner than later with so many titles coming out I predict. Hopefully prices will level off within the next couple of years.

#75 6 years ago

I don't know how this will pan out. Higher prices on NIB pins seems to be raising the price of everything right now. ($3k for a good used pin doesn't seem so bad compared to $8k for something new.) Perhaps we will reach a saturation point if a lot of desirable new machines are available. On the other hand, that might simply serve to increase the popularity of the hobby, expanding the base and increasing demand for somewhat cheaper used pins.

All I am really sure of is that I will enjoy what I have and not count on my little collection to increase in value.

#76 6 years ago

If you buy something, don't like it and want to sell it quick you'll get what you paid back. If you buy a game and hold onto it for 5 years I think it's reasonable to expect that when you sell it you may lose money but hey you got 5 years of play out of the thing.

#77 6 years ago
Quoted from pinmanguy:

you got 5 years of play out of the thing

Exactly. It's great if you never lose money on a pin, but you need to figure in the equation the value of playing it all those years.

#78 6 years ago
Quoted from perryd:

simple supply and demand...bubble will burst sooner than later with so many titles coming out I predict. Hopefully prices will level off within the next couple of years.

Again with the bubble.

#79 6 years ago

"Theory on why pinball prices have risen"

Ummm.....more people want them then are readily available.

#80 6 years ago
Quoted from pinmanguy:

If you buy something, don't like it and want to sell it quick you'll get what you paid back. If you buy a game and hold onto it for 5 years I think it's reasonable to expect that when you sell it you may lose money but hey you got 5 years of play out of the thing.

BS. People who got in this hobby earlier, as pinball was on the decline have made a killing. I keep hearing about people who bought for x and sold recently for x+. It's very difficult to do that right now. I keep hearing about folks who traded up, too. I have yet to trade up. I consider it extremely fortunate if I can break even. Rising prices are frustrating to the recent newbies to this hobby. People are asking ridiculous money, because they can (and some folks actually get it). At least when I go to sell I keep it reasonable, and still have trouble selling. A lot of folks out here fighting at the bottom to find affordable pins, but the folks with big bankrolls shelling out big cash for A list games are driving all the B and C list games sky high. That is exactly what is happening.

#81 6 years ago
Quoted from Collin:

-Growth of the market for DMD pins - people who grew up with the 90s games now have our big-kid jobs and can afford them in the first place

This is exactly it, at least personally speaking. Hopefully I don't get evil looks as a youngin' who's causing the prices to skyrocket .

Lack of supply and high prices obviously go hand in hand, but especially for people in areas that don't have a great market, there's a big urge to jump on nearly anything that comes on the market(machine you don't want as much, or too high of a price) because you don't know if what you're looking for will show up any time soon.

#82 6 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

This is the more pleasant version of the "When the f@#k are these prices going to stop rising" thread.

I still don't find it any more pleasant

#83 6 years ago

Everyone: stop selling your machines for so much money!

EVeryone: stop paying so much for machines!

Do you see that happening? Ya, me neither. Accept the high prices, because as long as you're willing to pay them and want to sell for that price, that's just where they are going to stay.

#84 6 years ago

where was the poll option that was "screw WOZ and screw NIB prices"? That's the one I would have picked.

Everyone knows NIB prices are there reason for the hike. Everyone also knows that you guys are responsible for it by preordering every damn piece of shit to be released. It's not rocket science or hidden why everything skyrocketed just barely 2 years ago.

#86 6 years ago
Quoted from wayout440:

BS. People who got in this hobby earlier, as pinball was on the decline have made a killing. I keep hearing about people who bought for x and sold recently for x+. It's very difficult to do that right now. I keep hearing about folks who traded up, too. I have yet to trade up. I consider it extremely fortunate if I can break even. Rising prices are frustrating to the recent newbies to this hobby. People are asking ridiculous money, because they can (and some folks actually get it). At least when I go to sell I keep it reasonable, and still have trouble selling. A lot of folks out here fighting at the bottom to find affordable pins, but the folks with big bankrolls shelling out big cash for A list games are driving all the B and C list games sky high. That is exactly what is happening.

+1000 on this.

Funny how people that paid $3k for AFM or MM feel $10k+ is "right on track" ....

But even worse are the people that pay those prices - THAT is one of the biggest reasons we have had a price hike with no limit. We get some people with a whole lot of dollars and barely any sense ...

And then you have people popping $7k per NIB Stern with build quality so lame some people had to reassemble parts of their X-men pins right after they took it out of the box.

Keep throwing the toxic waste in our drinking water; we haven't poisoned ourselves enough yet.

#87 6 years ago

If you bought WOZ as an investment, you're doing it wrong.

This isn't a run of 300 games. There will probably be thousands of WOZ's out there. I can't see the value of a LE run of 1000 games going up dramatically. Not when the pinball market isn't really growing as much as enthusiasts are just entering a phase in their life where they have a little more disposable income. At least that's my theory.

The fact of the matter is, the pinball community is really small. One thing that's contributed to prices rising is the Internet, which allows people to buy and sell machines from across the globe. This has allowed buyers to find games they wouldn't normally find and created a little more competitive market, but it's mostly a small market of people buying and selling amongst themselves. Prices are also going up because more and more enthusiasts are taking control of the available inventory of machines that have historically been spread across a variety of warehouses, barns and laypeoples' houses (these great deals are drying up for obvious reasons). There's a finite amount of games out there and they're slowly being found and put into the market.

Again, this market is small.. .how small? Well a few extremely aggressive enthusiasts can control large regions. Some regions of the country have extremely aggressive buyers who monitor CL posts by the hour. Those guys will travel a thousand miles to pick up a good deal. They have warehouses of games. There are "flippers" now in the market who are stockpiling games. And this also drives up prices. It used to be people would buy games for their own use, now they get extra games for trade bait, and some people have warehouses of games they sit on because they can. All this drives up prices, and makes good game deals harder to find.

#88 6 years ago

The original post made me immediately think of this quote: qj2z.gif

#90 6 years ago

Simultaneously, baby boomers no longer have any kids in the house and are near or at retirement age. They're looking for hobbies.

#91 6 years ago

Massive inflation over the last 10 years!

#92 6 years ago

Wait. Is this thread about pin prices? I thought that subject had been banned?

Or maybe I was dreaming.

A man can dream. Right?

#93 6 years ago

I'm sure this has probably already been said, but I believe The Pinball Arcade app with over 5 million downloads has helped more than a few people discover/rediscover this hobby. And even though playing pinball on an iPad is fun, it's no substitute for the real thing.

#94 6 years ago
Quoted from BradLinden:

I had a thought the other day about a potentially big influence on the recent rises in pinball prices (especially NIB games).
A few years ago, after plenty of delays and doubts, Big Bang Bar remakes were delivered. If I remember right, prices on those games immediately skyrocketed and some who took the risk of pre-ordering a game were able to sell their games at double what they paid. As this happened, there were a lot of people kicking themselves for not ordering a BBB in the first place.
Fast forward a few years, and Jack announces that he is starting a new pinball company and making a game. Delivery schedule is tentative, but he's got big dreams and is taking pre-orders. Consciously or not, I think a lot of people had BBB flashbacks with that announcement, and were not going to miss this chance at getting a rare and highly valuable machine. Of course peoples' rapport with Jack and desire for something new were big factors, but I think the "BBB Factor" probably made it way easier to put forward a lot of money on a potential risk.
With so many people learning their lesson from missing BBB, Jack gets plenty of pre-orders. Meanwhile, Stern sees what people are willing to pay for machines, and they up their prices also. And this chain influences the used market prices also.
I'm not suggesting that the economy, growth of the pinball market, greed, etc. aren't factors, but I wonder if BBB is a subtle yet powerful influence here. I guess one way to gauge this would be to survey WOZ "owners" on whether their main motivation to buy was Investment or pure interest in owning the game itself. [feel free to vote in the poll if you are a WOZ owner]

Hey! I know that guy!

#95 6 years ago

because pinball is awesome and we keep talking it up to others and they are getting their own games,rinse and repeat.

#96 6 years ago

because of ebay

#97 6 years ago

Several contributing factors, but let's not forget that guys like Kirk Weaver are no longer flooding the market with re-imported pins.

#98 6 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Wait. Is this thread about pin prices? I thought that subject had been banned?
Or maybe I was dreaming.
A man can dream. Right?

I think pinball price discussion is valuable on these boards. Because if you have a newbie on here, he should know that he's out of his f^(king mind to pay such and such a price. If more people were knowledgeable on prices, they might not be so out of control right now.

Post edited by absocountry2 : profanity edited

#99 6 years ago

Lately I have seen more AFM, MB and MM for sale than there has been in quite a while. I think these prices are what it's taken to get the older collectors to start letting go. A guy who has had MB for many years didn't want to part with it for $5k, but considers it now that it's closer to double that. I doubt the wave of newcomers picking up these games will want to sell at a loss. They will likely want even more for them down the road.

#100 6 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I think pinball price discussion is valuable on these boards. Because if you have a newbie on here, he should know that he's out of his f^(king mind to pay such and such a price. If more people were knowledgeable on prices, they might not be so out of control right now.

No. You are misunderstanding what I was saying.

I have zero problem with price discussion when it comes to a specific pin. "Price check" threads are great. I defend them all the time, even when others bash them and accuse the OP of "being lazy" for not doing their own research.

What I'm talking about is these non-stop threads on pin prices *in general*. They pop up seemingly every day. And guess what? They are never helpful. Any newbie reading this thread wouldn't really find any useful information to help them gauge a fair price for a specific pin that they are looking to buy.

"Theory on why pinball prices have risen"? Yes we need another thread like that, cuz it's never been discussed here ...since two days ago. It's even more annoying when you consider that the "theory" is known: it's called supply and demand.

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