I give theme to Stern and Quality to JJP. I dident buy a WOZ because of Theme.
I bought a AC/DC LE and A Metallica MOPLE because of theme alone.

You don't like the theme, I get it.

I'm not an expert, but I thought Jack built WOZ because the quality of Stern Pins was going down, and he, as a distributor wasn't happy. Seems to me, that by creating WOZ, he has forced Stern to up his game. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'm not a fan of superhero or music pins, but I really liked the WOZ theme because it appealed to my family. I like some other themes too, but they didn't appeal to rest of the clan. I think he got enough people interested, as he sold 1000 LE versions. It may not be everyone's cup of tea. I hope stern ups their game some more, as they still to me don't feel like a $7000 pin, and if they do improve, I will buy from them. In the meantime, we've got two pin manufacturers that are going to provide pins for all different demographics and that is good.

Probably theme. And WOZ, while it doesn't overly excite me, is more interesting to me than ACDC or Mettalica. NF, Fishing, Nascar etc etc all themes that don't excite me and have really good games around them.

For me... depends!

I got a WPT and believe me, I do not give a damn about Poker. And artwork is...questionable at best. But the game rules are deep, and this is a really good game. So I was able to "ignore" the theme when I bought it. But I had to try it again and again before deciding.

The same could happen for me with WoZ. Will need a lot of games on a finished machine to be convinced, but this could happen. Never say never...

i think these new Music-themed pins require at least a tacit enjoyment of the theme.... at least moreso than other types of pins.

And I'm mostly thinking of ACDC: the music is so ingrained in the gameplay- it'd be hard to ignore it or block it out if you didn't have at least some enjoyment of their tunes...

Some themes just seem more heavy-handed than others in terms of their use in the game experience...

I don't care for Sterns themes at all. Superheroes(well maybe SM) and soft metal? Yippee.

WOZ design team and programmers is what sold me

How about vs game play?

So far Stern is winning. I was not impressed with the game play on WOZ.

It looks fantastic and the quality of construction looks better than any pin ever made.......but without the game play......who cares.

if the theme does nothing to me, i don't buy.

i don't like woz because of that but can't wait to see the hobbit.

that too.

The point is missed here.

Stern and JJ are making very different pins from each other. Sterns have improved greatly since JJ jumped in. It's win win for us. JJ will improve the WOZ code until it is super strong and deep. They have no choice but to do that. JJ will come through with a truly original wide body pin. I can't wait for my WOZ. That being said, I just ordered a MOPLE.

I'm a theme first kind of guy. With that said I can overlook it if it's a good game. It does appear JJP is really stepping it up in regards to build quality, but we'll have to wait and see how they hold up overtime.

I own nothing but Stern's at this point and I don't get the cheap feeling that a lot of people harp on them about. Sure they feel different than Bally/Williams games, but from some comments you would think they're going fall apart if you play more than ten games on them.

1 Gameplay
2 Looks ( and I think theme has alot to do with looks )
3 Sounds , the sounds can draw you in as much as the gameplay and looks

You cannot compare quality at this point. WOZ has some serious issues. Have enough time both playing it and under the hood of the game. Yea it might be a BMW; but you will have to own 2 to enjoy 1.

WOZ; Hobbit, compared to TRON, Spiderman, Hulk, AC/DC, and Metallica....Come on now...Really....

Not a huge fan of the music pins but WOZ and Hobbit... Umhhhhhhh.,...

Hopefully these issues are just in the prototypes out there and don't end up in anybodys homes.

Yay!!!!!!!!!!!! Another JJP vs Stern thread. I thought my life was over not having a new one the last 15 min

Theme (if I hate the theme, no buy)
Rules (if isn't somewhat interesting, it gets old too fast. I'll play on location, maybe)
Gameplay (its got to "feel" fun and the shots work)
Price (the cost matters. I'll pay for quality, but if it's too expensive, I'm out)

Neither. Code and fun factor.

I said...

We are in the first two minutes of the first quarter of a long game. Some people act like its all over.

When a company is going to do about one pin a year. Odds are your "theme" won't be chosen.

Doesn't mean it's weak or unpopular.

With Stern doing three titles a year, your odds improve, but still there is a chance you'll never see your "theme".

And both companies have sold a lot of product fast.

Me, I'm waiting on a get Fuzzy pin, will settle for a Bob the Squirrel pin.

LTG : )

How it plays first. Then theme and I guess I expect good build quality. Ideally all three which is what I'm hoping Raza will be. I have fun playing them all!

+1 on that Wpt.

Great analogy. This, from a guy who has owned several VW's and Audi's.....

For me it's the theme. As far as build quality, I don't care who makes it, it is still a pinball machine built on a mass production basis and it will break/have issues.

Okay expert, what issues?

Please be specific.

I didn't say I wasn't a gambler! The sight unseen ones are themes I really like. They may end up being turds. But like I said, I have fun playing them all!

What the point? It's like arguing with a brick wall. We all know what the facts are at this point. Some people have to throw constant nonsense out there that they no nothing about the reality of. Just say Sh*t to say it

You can't make a valid comparison on gameplay because Nobody has played a completed Woz! Not even close. My Audi drives a whole lot better than my truck which doesn't have the wheels on yet

For one the RGB LED's are daisy chained through each other and the drivers through different boards. One goes out they all go out "Expert"....We spent 8 hours under the hood of these things before the show.

I have an extensive electrical engineering background and I design systems and circuits / boards for a living. I can tell you there are problems.

I think people are too caught up in ruby slippers, lollipops, cowardly lions etc...
WOZ is about witches, flying monkeys, scary trees, tornados, wizards, hallucinations, castles. It's a cool theme. Stop trying to prove your manhood and admit that you love the lollipop kids.

It all depends on what we're talking about quality wise. If the game is unplayable, if it's breaking down every few plays, then yeah, quality is an issue. But if not, I'd prefer a good theme as opposed to some extra quality in the materials.

Seriously, these games are going mainly into homes where they are being babied by collectors. They aren't being banged around in a bowling alley 12 hours a day. People aren't spilling drinks, kicking them, sitting on them, or putting unnecessary strain on the machine. Sure the newer Sterns may not hold up as well as some of the older machines on location, but in a home, I don't think any of that matters.

There's one major flaw in your argument: you assume that everyone loves what you love. You love chocolate, therefore the world does not need strawberry. You won't even consider allowing anyone else to eat strawberry, because chocolate rules and that's the end of that.

But you know what? I'm not buying Metallica because I hate the theme. Hate with a capital "H". But I really do like the design, so if it were a different theme I very well might've bought it. And the same goes for AC/DC: I see this as Steve's best game in years, and one of Stern's most feature-filled machines ever. But I despise the theme and would never own it.

Now, I do own three Stern pins. TSPP was bought because I love the theme (and, conveniently, the game). BSM was bought because I loved the game. The theme was mildly interesting to me at best. And I have BDK because, at the time (NBA/Iron Man), I was worried Stern might never make a "full-featured" pin again and/or go out of business, and it would be my last chance to get a NIB pin. Batman is a theme I'm entirely neutral on, as with all of Stern's latest superhero pins, meaning the game itself has to draw me in (which Avengers, X-men, Transformers, Iron Man et al have all failed to do).

As for WOZ: no, this is certainly not my dream theme. I'm mostly neutral on it, maybe a bit on the positive size because I see what can be done with it, but at least the theme choice did not actively work to turn me off like AC/DC and Metallica does. But I can understand that others like rock bands, so I would never say Stern should never have made those games.

Jack set out to do something different. He wanted a classic, recognizable theme that was ultimately family friendly and not in any way related to the rock band/superhero hopscotch thing that Stern has going on. And why shouldn't he try something different? Why should he make what is already being made? How do you know if strawberry will sell or not if no one ever gives it a chance?

I would rate

1) gameplay/rules/lightshow/sound
2) looks
2.5) build quality-this is often tied to looks
3) theme

This whole thing is a mixed bag. I like Jackbot, but hate the music.
I like the Harley theme, but do not like the gameplay (sega/stern)
I like Space Station music but the art is so so.
TOM is one of the best looking of all time and it plays like a dream, but the rules began to bore me.

I am so, so very tired of hearing about the "fit & finish" and build quality of WOZ. Some of you people act like these Stern machines are gonna disintegrate into dust after 300 plays, or that what makes a pin fun is how heavy-duty its cabinetry is.

On both accounts, that's complete horseshite.

This is an interesting thread. For me theme is more important, but with limitations. Years ago when I bought my first pin, I thought I wanted a WPT for a poker themed game room. I found one to play and it didn't click with me at all, but a nearby Sopranos did (especially the music) and I'm not particularly a fan of mob stuff. So, there are obviously exceptions. Conversely, I like the Twister movie and music enough to play it every now and then even though the game play is just meh and the call outs are very repetitive. Build quality hasn't really been a consideration for me thus far. I own SEGA, DE, Williams, and Sterns. I enjoy them all irregardless of build quality. So, for me theme wins most of the time and the music is very big factor. Stern seems to have recently figured that out.

1 - Theme (most of the time)
2 - Game Play
3 - Pin Background Music

Game play
quality
Theme

Here it is. it's not about quality or theme. It's about gameplay. The Stern games are plenty good quality. None of my Sterns are falling apart. All are working perfectly. I am not spending hours repairing them or fixing constantly broken parts. Flippers are tight and strong. Quality is fine. The theme is enough to attract me to play. But its the gameplay that determines if the game is a keeper or not. I own plenty of games who's theme I dislike: Shadow, Monopoly, Congo, Johnny Mnemonic, ACDC, Cirqus Voltaire, Indy 500, Corvette, Getaway. I have owned a couple games where the theme was just so bad I had to sell the game in spite of liking the game: Elvis for example. But if the theme isn't a total turn off, then the game stands for itself.

And by the way, you cannot claim that JJP even has better quality at this point. They need to be shipping games before that claim can be made. Heavier cabinet or thicker wood on a playfield does not make for quality. They may have boards that die fast, flipper mechs that wear fast, power issues, lighting issues,who knows? Too soon to say.

All my Audis have kicked ass trouble free. I don't get the analogy. Maybe he stayed at a holiday inn express

Go the bed

One thing that I have not yet see mentioned in this thread is the impact of spouses on theme choice. My wife is offended by the overly sexist nature of some pins and the scary aspects of others (we have 4 young kids). That limits themes I can purchase. While I may be the exception rather than the rule, I do know that great-playing family friendly pins are the only keepers in this household. I am probably not the only one in this situation. It appears that JJP sees this niche and seems to be creating pins that fit those needs nicely. But, these pins do need to appeal to the market as a whole as well.