Absolutely. As I mentioned in my original post, JJP updates seem to be more regular with substantial additions and modifications to the game. I can't say for sure as I don't own or follow WoZ too closely.

Therin lies Sterns issue in my opinion - it's not the unfinished nature of the code buying NIB, its the fact that it's a crapshoot when/if it gets improved.

I actually LIKE the idea of buying the barebones game and having things added to it over time - makes the learning process easier, and extends the life of the game. It works on video games, it can work on pinball machines. Getting a tweak to Tron years after release is awesome, even if the changes are relatively small compared to what happened to ACDC.

What I don't like is the idea of waiting months and months for nothing, or an update that while substantial could be the last update for a year (or more!) that might not be an improvement *cough* XMen

stern coding failure imo is from :

1) having the programmers make code for 2 different versions of the same game

2) pumping out games aggressively as they do because they are trying to take as much capitol from jjp order

3) failure/ indifference to deploy enough resources to complete the games

Its a pipedream, but I wish Stern would just open source their damn code. That would bring endless potential to their pins while also alleviating the demands of "finishing" code. If current code doesn't have a wizard mode, we make it, if a number of us don't like the shot layout of a certain mode, we change it. Those that like the original code can keep it while others can download by flash updates from numerous player made "mods."

I don't see this solving anything except your own wishes - it makes no sense for Stern to allow it. The last thing Stern wants is someone playing a crappy modded code Star Trek, Metallica, ACDC, etc... and saying 'well that game sucks, not buying that'

Open source works for 'obsolete' machines but anything on the SAM system will never be intentionally open source until the platform is long dead.

I disagree.
Look at Star wars... some dude reverse engineered the game code... fixed some problems; then stern goes and puts it on their site like their work?

Open source projects CAN be managed properly while still leading an industry. Look at Google's Android. Linux.
Stern chooses to operate this way because they are quiet simply Lazy and un-caring.

They have said Tron is EOL.
Why haven't they opened the code?
pre-Stern Sega machines are dead... why isn't that code available?
I know - trade secrets and what not... but really?

I applaud pinbrowser for their work... now we need a team of people reversing current stern code to build an opensource alternative. But alas... won't happen.

I agreed with the rest of your post, but this seems like a somewhat odd statement. MM is a 17 year old game that is being reproduced, so saying that it is the first NIB machine with "complete" code since...whenever...doesn't seem like a valid comparison to anything.

Hold on. I don't understand the apparent perception by many that it takes a lot of time to lay down the basic functionality on a new Stern pin.

It sounds like every time they make a new machine all the code has to be written from scratch.

Really? Seriously?

Lonnie's modes are infamous - light every shot, then shoot all the lit shots. That takes effort?

Think about it. There's an addressable switch and light representing every possible input. They don't have to learn how to control them... that's reusable. All they have to do is order/translate the pf layout to the event driven system/logic in their software.

How much work can that take?????

Or am I supposed to believe that writing the dots for each game is a 40-hour a week, 16-week effort, per machine? Is that what takes all the programmer's time?

Who said that?

I agree with this but here's a question I have.... when playing a tournament or just having a solid fun home game .... who is the governing body that decides what code or rule set is the definitive one.. who dictates scoring and what shots combos etc. are worth where and how does a standard evolve and be adhered to?

What part do you disagree with? That the code of MM is complete of that these rereleases are not 'NIB'?

That's the comedy in it all... We are depending on a 17 year old game to be the first complete, no update, fully finished game released for purchase by a manufacturer since iron man (or whatever game you last consider mostly finished in the box). I'm not saying its a comparison per se, it's just a fact.

I bought an LE and I cant wait! Its Steve Richie! He is the man. Quit complaining. Pin will be amazing.

One guy working on reverse engineered code in private is NOT an example of open source free-for-all access.

Open source projects CAN be managed properly while still leading an industry. Look at Google's Android. Linux.
Stern chooses to operate this way because they are quiet simply Lazy and un-caring.

Look at iOS and Windows. Closed source works better and from the "no-clue-what-im-doing" consumer point of view. I have buddies who don't know what a coil is in a pinball machine, how are they going to dig into a plethora of open source software offerings and find what they need?

They have said Tron is EOL.
Why haven't they opened the code?

You will NOT see any SAM system game code while the system is being produced. You'd be better off asking for whitestar code to be released. What you are asking for would be like asking Epic to release the source code for Unreal Engine 4, or even 3 right now.

At best you could lobby for Sega and DE games to be released, but you won't get it because Stern won't gain customers because of open source old code.

I completely agree. Not only does this add a fun aspect to the hobby, it gives Stern free bandwidth. I can envision a model where Stern is using an online version control system like GitHub...Community teams could effectively branch to propose bug fixes, make mods, rewrites, etc. Stern could then selectively test and pull in changes from other branches. This is a model used by other large software projects.

Stern could even go as far as to have a signing system that only lets signed code run on a 'normal' machine...Devs could be issued special rights to run unsigned code and thus limit the use of 'bad' software that would do hardware damage. Stern could then have a basic QA process/minimum bar that must be met for code to be signed. This is a model used on phones and other closed platforms.

The only suggestion I would make would be to factor out the core OS/kernel code and ship that as a binary that is linked in with the 'rules code'. This would limit damaging mistakes and help maintain a consistent feel in basic functionality.

Heh. And of course now that you state it that way, it is clear that I do not disagree with you at all.

So, I'm confused. Does the OP mean this is an eternal problem as in forever? (NEVER going to get fixed) Or, an internal problem as in they can't get their crap together and there is lots of infighting in the halls of Stern?

Or...both?

Lol, wut? At this point, WOF/XMen/TF/etc might as well be considered obsolete since it's obvious nothing is going to change. They already have your money, so if you think they give two chits about the code you're fooling yourself.

The open source will fix A LOT of the issues, or would at least be more beneficial to Stern versus them shooting themselves in the foot by never finishing their games and fleecing people out of $5k+. Look at how many people that have already commented they won't buy any of Stern's future releases because of their previous shenanigans with not completing their code...

what suprised me most, is the silence, we never hear anything from them on any forum (except the nazi forum they have), nothing, they definitely need to get out of the dark and change their attitude.

all i can really say right now is:

.

wake-up.jpg

"Wake TF up"...............

How come people keep insinuating that TFs code is not finished? Game has been finished for over a year.

How long do you think it took Lonnie to program assembling, collecting, and completing each hero? A day? How about assault on the heli-carrier; during his lunch break? How about the creative rules and JP of the tesserect? After his afternoon nap? How about the killer light show for Loki mb? During his morning cup of coffee?

You clearly don't understand what open source means. "WOF/XMen/TF/etc " code itself is not what gets 'unlocked' - the SAM platform is what has to be unlocked for true open source like a Linux system, otherwise all you do is reverse engineer/crack/'jailbreak'/circumvent the roadblocks in the system.

From the perspective of the architecture and source code of the system, the SAM platform is in no way obsolete regardless of what games you deem obsolete. Now, if this were to happen Stern delivers into the lap of every competitor, a development system, the keys to all of their architecture, and potentially a platform on which to build games. (ie - Medieval madness remake anybody? The Cabs and Playfields are being built in the same place, why not the software and hardware hey?)

5 years ago I too laughed at locking of their software - Like really, who the hell cared? "It's pinball - there's one manufacturer, who's gonna do any damage?" Fast forward to today where we have 3-4 players in the commercial end, and a dozen or so little guys popping up... yes wouldn't a full working pinball architecture and programming suite be nice to have access to?

Haha word

Scary part is, with new hardware... there might actually be a software update required to quash new bugs hahaha.

I think because if you don't like the game = software not finished

This particular topic is getting pretty long in the tooth IMHO.. it's like griping about stern code is the new thing that all the cool kids gotta do. By now, we should all know it takes time to perfect code and that games simply don't get released complete with features that collectors deem the 'right' ones. This goes for Stern, JJP and everyone else (skit B found that out too this weekend). if it bothers people THAT much, the answer is simple, don't buy the game until it's finished to a point you think is enough for you. This constant whining and thread after thread is getting almost childish really. Nobody's forcing anyone to buy a game and nobody's putting any definitions of what complete is out there yet endless threads complain that feature X that nobody ever set any kind of timeframe for isn't there.

To me, stern has a pretty good track record lately of sticking with their games and fleshing out the code. Xmen saw them take two major cracks at fixing the code after the initial release to the point that the game is pretty good now. Tron has seen many updates, long after it left production and is one of the most loved games ever. Metallica has already seen a few updates with more on the way in my opinion a great playing game as is, AC DC is considered one of the best games in many years. Can't think of anything to add to Avengers that would significantly change the game. Clearly stern isn't 'sitting around doing nothing', they are working on their games and tweaking them to fit what collectors say they want. Why can't we be patient and let them do their work and release the updates when they are confident in them?

It's a hell of a lot more fun to enjoy the games as they are and look forward to new features and updates as they come out than to sit there frothing and upset at them because it's not perfect day one. I have owned plenty of new sterns and for the most part enjoyed every one, and had fun playing them as they evolved. Same goes for my Woz that was barely functional initially but over a years time has become pretty damned good. I guess I would have a hard time being in a hobby that I spent most of my time being pissed off about it, this is supposed to be fun.

Last week at Expo the incomplete software discussion came up in the lobby. Some mentioned that there have not been any major improvements in programming tools (games still being programmed like in the mid '90s). I don't know if this is true, but it looks like Ben Heck can do things like dots faster using newer software like Adobe After Effects and such, than Stern can.

What I was wondering about: how does a video game company like Raw Thrills deal with this? Do they ship their games with incomplete software and do updates later, or is everything pretty much in the game when launched?

Can't speak for Raw Thrills but I will say that pre xbox 360 (maybe original xbox?) and ps3, everything was in a console game at launch because there was no such thing as updates or fixes on older systems. When you bought a game, that was it - glitches problems and all.

Now we have day 1 patches, on-disc downloadable content, and endless bug fixes.

Posted this in in the Xmen thread.

Stern - PLEASE listen to your customers! Not finishing games is hurting your sales and will do so even more in the future. I have been a pretty reasonable customer of yours. I bought 6 NIB and 2 used Stern games over the last 2 years. I was interested in Metallica and ST. But I refuse to pre-order again after what you did with Xmen. If you took the time to finish your games - show that you have a long term vision and not just a pump and dump sales model, you would win people back. I would consider buying from you again if you show this, but you lost at least one sale to me. My money went to a MM LE.

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE take the time to finish and polish the games that you have sold to us for a fair chunk of money. It can't take that long to add 1 mode (Deadpool), add a combo award, put some animations into final wizard mode and add Mag MB progression. Its a fun game that could be great. I want to trumpet how good of a game it is, and how good a manufacturer you are. But for now, my money is going to another company.

And for the love of God, improve you communication with your loyal customer base. Stop treating us like we are annoying you. We offer free R&D and playtesting. And you treat us like crap.

This attitude will catch up to you soon.

Unfortunately, this is just like our political system. You can go on a Yahoo board and complain. Or, you can make other efforts such as writing your Congressman, getting involved locally, etc. to change things. In this case, if you really want to make a difference then you need to send letters to Gary, call Stern with specific issues, and perhaps start your own website.

Anything short of this will NOT result in any change. Other than if people rise up and stop buying NIB Sterns. Which is always a good possibility.

ummm. nope.
iOS is loosing market share to open source google.

If you go back to iPhone1... you'll note that Apple started out with closed source / no APIs. They realized suddenly that it was more than music out there that people wanted to go out and install on their phones. It was the hackers hacking the iPhone code to install jailbroken apps that woke up the iPhone developers.

I agree closed source works for immediate gratification of the general customer. But MOST of us in the hobby are not general "operator" types. We mod/repair/improve our machines all the time. Code should be no different.

IRDGAF; that stern is capable or willing to opensource their work. For the good of our hobby; they should.

Agreed SAM shouldn't be released. But Whitestar or the earlier should.

I hope that MultiMorphic (P3) holds to opensource guns during their development. As I think it'll be for the good of everyone LONG TERM that that code is available.

And yes; I practice what I preach... I've release several electronic designs to the public under TAPR/NCL.

My thoughts are that code isn't that important to them. And lets be honest, it hasn't been that important to the community as a whole. Many people buy games years in advance. Many will fork over money for games without even playing them. All either based off a theme or some pictures. When you're able to sell a few million dollars worth of Metallica LEs based on a press release, there isn't a ton of incentive to finish the code. You've made your money on the title, on to the next one.

What bothers me is the lack of communication. Now I don't mind getting a machine at launch that isn't finished code wise as long as I have some idea of whether it's going to be finished or not. It doesn't have to be specific, but something simple like "Metallica 2.0 Update Scheduled for Q4". I just want to know if someone is working on it, if this is something they are planning on doing. Instead customers who fork over thousands are forced to guess and pass on vague rumors as to whether the product they purchased will ever be finished.

I don't see things changing mainly because I don't see consumers changing. I feel in the minority when I say I won't buy a machine unless I've played it and feel it's finished. I would own a Metallica Premium right now if the code was finished, but I'm not going to spend $7k to hope it's done in the future. If they finish it, I'll buy, just as I did when I bought AC/DC a year after release.

This isn't meant to start some boycott or anything, people should buy what they want when they want. Just that as long as everyone hands over their money before thinking about the code inside, they'll treat that part of the game as a secondary feature. If you do care and if it does hold you back from buying, mention it to your distributor. Mention it to Gary at a show. Let them know that they are leaving potential sales on the table because of it.

Sounds like a lot of us wouldn't mind continuing to buy NIB machines as long as we know that the software gets completed. The problem we have encountered with Stern is its hit or miss as to which machine gets completed code and there hasn't been a track record of completing games for a while now. I held off for a year to buy an ACDC Premium just to see if the game would get completed. Thankfully ACDC has received a good number of updates to heavily improve the game since launch. However, other machines that people paid the same $6-$7k for are still in need of updates to complete it. As a result of this more and more people are refusing to buy machines out of the gate and are waiting to see if the code will get completed. Stern could easily counteract this and generate some goodwill with customers if they just made a statement saying that they are going to be more committed to completing code and that they see the importance of doing so.

I can only hope that JJP continues down the path they have been with releasing frequent code updates and being committed to finishing it. Its true that they have, at the moment, one game to code for so I'm sure that allows the crew more time to complete a game. Personally, I would rather have Stern release 2 games a year with good code out of the gate and then be committed to finishing a deep ruleset on it over the course of that year rather then releasing 4 games and only one ends of getting completed code. One thing I like about JJP's approach is that they released the rulescreens below for WOZ over 6 months ago. Keith knew that some of these rules would be in the game over a year ago and after more then 20 updates this year alone for WOZ probably 75% of the main games code is complete.

http://img-f.pinside.com/201304/782325/89055.jpg
http://img-f.pinside.com/201304/782325/89056.jpg

If Stern released a rules layout for a game when they announced it I think it would go a long way to show that they are committed to completing a game and give players an idea of where a games code will go. On top of that they could start releasing some videos at the announcement of a machine that has the programmers talking about the rules for a game to get fans fired up.

I think this is the crux of the problem. The tools they are using are so inefficient, they just can't keep up.

I have sent communications to at least 2 Stern employees. One directly affected (programmer) and one executive. I was completely ignored by the programmer, and told by the executive that they do not discuss future plans with the public.

And for those who have not read Xmen threads, I have been very vocal on pinside about coding issues (constructively so I think).

Hence I have changed my approach and I have stopped buying NIB Sterns.

Yes. If games were sold direct to consumers rather than distributors, they'd get banged on this, but they have distributors by the balls here.

Absolutely. They could just manage this better and make it SEEM like things are happening, they could pretty much eliminate the PERCEPTION of the problem. Again, they're in the biz of listening to distributors, not consumers. They are pretty bad at dealing with the public IMO.

I would also agree that many of these issues would be forgiven with more communication.

I was interested in ST, but like most on here, I will not buy a NIB Stern. The most frustrating thing is the lack of communication and some of the worst customer service I have ever experienced. This is why I am willing to give JJP a shot. I understand there are problems with any venture, but communication can buy you a lot of time.....and a little rope as well.

C'mon now! That's totally false information...........

..........it's light every shot, then shoot all the lit shots TWICE!!!!!!

......much more complex.

so innovation will be hit the lit shots 3 times.

*mind explodes*

Personally I think it's kind of funny to read post after post saying people would be much happier if Stern would just communicate better regarding code updates.

Really?

When Stern has done that in the past, it has backfired on them. They gave a date for a code update before Christmas (can't remember if this was for XMen or TF) but it wasn't released for several months after that. People were pissed! Lots of posts slamming Stern. Stern would have been better off not saying anything in terms of when the new code would be released.

So the only communication left if they aren't going to give a date, is the mere fact that they are working on it at all.

So how much better would you guys really feel if Stern communicated with us by saying "we're working on it"?

100%, at least we know they are doing something, and not just going by rumors or guessing...

I would certainly feel relieved if they said "we are working on it". So I guess, yes, that would make me feel better.

I can understand that to a degree as it would be nice to have an actual "official" statement I guess. But I think we all know that Lyman is working on MET, and Steve Ritchie has confirmed that they are continuing to work on Star Trek.

I think that the lack of updates or slowness gives everyone a sense that Stern does not feel a sense of urgency.
If they could start putting out updates more frequently (even small tweaks) until a game is finished then that may put more people at ease that their games will eventually be where they are hoping the finished version should be.

Stop buying the damn games sight unseen and with unfinished code and you may have a leg to stand on. Not trying to be a smartazz but what you vote with is your dollars. I also suggest you guys start a campaign to call stern everyday and complain about code. Just annoy the crap out of them. Squeaky wheel gets greased.

I agree to a point, except iOS is still outrageously successful, and Apple still dominates as far as actual hardware goes whcih from a pinball perspective is what you want - theres no money in software in pinball, its 100% hardware driven. Keep in mind that 'Android OS' refers to a number of phones from a number of manufacturers that share have different and unique features and drawbacks so the market appeal is larger. And supposedly iOS gained market share over the last 6 months so there But I digress.

I agree closed source works for immediate gratification of the general customer. But MOST of us in the hobby are not general "operator" types. We mod/repair/improve our machines all the time.

I disagree. I agree that 90% of pinsiders are as you describe, but pinside is not 100% of the pinball market. At Expo and Pinburgh, I was hard pressed to find many people who posted on pinside, and alot never had even heard of it. I think we forget that the world of pinball exists outside our forum here. I would say half our local group would not take advantage of open source code without being helped or instructed on how to do so.

For the good of our hobby; they should.
Agreed SAM shouldn't be released. But Whitestar or the earlier should.

I would love to see older platforms released, but I don't think Stern really cares about the good of the hobby from a business perspective. Like, what would improve from their end? More people buying old machines for modded code? Stern doesn't need/want to compete with things like Bride of Pinbot 2.0... or Simpsons Pinball Party 2.0... New machines are fetching top dollar, why would Stern want to reinvigorate the used market?

From my perspective, yes i'd love open source code. But it won't happen, and frankly, doesn't NEED to happen as long as Stern keeps selling machines - and don't fool yourself otherwise. They are selling machines.

That we agree on. The point of my posts was to give my opinion. I have zero faith that Stern will ever "do the right thing"... even when forced to do so by market conditions.

As far as the software tools at stern or wherever... I honestly think Stern doesn't care. They won't pay someone to consult or develop "tools" for their efficiency. I'm betting that they probably use the same stuff they have been using for years... the only time they update their toolchain is to address a new mpu's instruction set. I just don't see Gary paying anyone "fairly" for their skills.