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(Topic ID: 109931)

The SprayMax 2K Auto Clear in a Can Club!

By Curbfeeler

6 years ago

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  • 1,136 posts
  • 180 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 22 days ago by Flipper_McGavin
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#352 3 years ago

Anyone here tried working with the SprayMax 1k? I have a lot of touch-ups airbrushing on my Sinbad playfield, and to keep this stage of the process moving, I am using the SprayMax 1k when needed between airbrush (Createx coats).

I have read that putting the 2k on top of the 1k (My plan when all touch ups are complete) is totally fine.

Anyone have any thoughts or experience on this?

UPDATE: Do not use acrylic paints between layers of 1k. The 1k layer underneath the acrylic paint will react with the 1k top coat on your acrylic and cause the acrylic paint to wrinkle. See my topic on my Sinbad Restoration for more details on this.

#355 3 years ago
Quoted from PinballPianist:

Hi, I once tried 2K over 1K and it was a disaster. The chemicals of 2K seem to solve the 1K layer. The surface got wrinkled and brown
like my grandmother's skin.

Wow. That's frightening. I might change my plan. I think earlier in this topic I read that it's fine, but now I'm rethinking that plan.

I am having issues with some 1k wrinkling my air-brushed Createx paint (just some colors, not all) which I suspect might be due too 1) too much 1k being sprayed (which allows the solvent enough time to eat into the acrylic) and/or not fully cured acrylic paint containing too much moisture reacting with the 1k as well.

1 month later
#365 3 years ago

Not sure this is the right place for this but I wanted to share my experience here since this comes up occasionally and someone might be able to learn from my mistake.

With the obvious dangers of Spraymax 2k, I decided to only use 2k on my topcoat and use the Spraymax 1k (somewhat less toxic and terrifying to use) as the basis for my sealing coats between Createx air-brush touch ups.

DON'T DO THIS! IT will not work!

What I discovered the hard way is that when you have the Spraymax 1k as a base, then apply Createx (and I have no reason to doubt any other brand) touch ups and THEN seal it with a top coat of the SM 1k it will cause your beautiful acyrilic touch ups to wrinkle like a California Raisin that spent too much time in the pool.

The photos here show you what the result looks like.

I did some more testing to discover this the hard way which you can read more detail on in my Sinbad Restoration post:

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2 weeks later
#372 3 years ago

Anyone used a traditional 2 pac with SprayMax 2k?

Mainly for filling in cupped inserts with an eye dropper. It seems like the method of spraying SM2k into a jar and then using the dropped to fill cupped inserts has caused a few folks to get bubbles in their filled inserts. I had this same issue with my failed SM1k 'test', and as I prepare to fix/clear another playfield, I really want to avoid bubbles in the cupped inserts as its a real pain to fix those.

So I'm wondering if there is a 2 Pac (traditional mixing for a traditional spray job) that plays nice with SprayMax 2k?

#376 3 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

Did you guys leave the filled spot dry or shot clear over top soon after? I think it needs a longer time to cure and let all the air out.

I had the issue with Spraymax 1k. While a different product, I tried the same "spray in jar' trick and got disastrous results in my inserts (but not all of them: a couple turned out okay). When I read about the same problem others had with SM2K I thought it might be the same propellants used in both products.

Anyway, I didn't spray anything over my inserts after the bubbles appeared as it was pretty horrendous.

Needless to say, this is one he!! I don't want to repeat again. Buying a couple cans of regular 2 pac is a small price to pay to avoid bubbles!

So....anyone have any recommendations for a 2 pac that works with Spraymax?

#378 3 years ago

I eyedroppered in some 2PAC yesterday (brand called "Euroclear"). For under $50 this seems like a good insurance measure to avoid bubbles with Spraymax sprayed in jar technique.

Below are photo's comparing the disaster I had with Spraymax 1k to fill inserts (these are two different playfields BTW) to how the 'real' 2PAC looks 24 hours later. I'm going to wait until next weekend to put my sealing coat on the playfield so I can begin airbrrush and touchups. I'll update this thread with my results.

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1 week later
#420 3 years ago

I learned a lesson on my first Sinbad Playfield (which will probably be re-themed). I got a LOT of orange peel. Boo!

But I learned something!

Putting on my base coat on my replacement Sinbad Playfield,the results were a LOT better!

1) I put the can a lot closer (about 6" from playfield - that seemed really close to me originally, but was one of the issues I think that results in orange peel on playfield 2
2) Was a bit more generous with the paint application. When people describe a 'base coat' prior to touch-ups, they seem to imply a 'thin coat' of clear - not sure what a 'thin coat' means to this newb, but I laid it on a bit thicker this time.
3) Did one coat. Waited 10 minutes (the 'flash time') and laid down a second.

Results were good for a first base coat. And breathing a sigh of relief there was no silicone or other unfortunate reactions (I cleaned with the traditional alcohol/ME and naptha approach, etc...).

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#443 3 years ago
Quoted from cd1954:

I just finished a Williams Klondike with SM2K. It's great stuff!

Looks really great! I have a Williams OXO planned for later! I think these older playfields look amazing with a fresh clear!

#444 3 years ago

Well...darn. Not only do we have wildfires that are sprinkling ash all over the Northwest (a but surreal!), but the humidity is not forecast to be below 60% for several days - I have a short window maybe today - otherwise not until Monday and of course I'll be travelling for work that week. Ready to clear and having to wait on weather is a real pain!

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#445 3 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

Even after a few weeks the clear will still be soft. Anything screwed to the top side will leave a mark. Longer you wait, the better.
My playfield was quite planked and even if it looked like glass after polish, the clear continued to shrink and now I can see marks of the clear continuing to sink into the wood.
In my case, it would have been better to wait 2-3 weeks, even more before doing the final coat. Kruzman waits 2-3 weeks before each coat and does 4. Letting the clear cure and shrink. Now would have been a good time for me to do my last coat but I did not know and really wanted to move forward.

That seems like really good advice. I'm going to attempt to follow this plan myself. Of course, in 2-3 weeks it will be almost October and I may not have another 70 degree day here in Seattle until next May! LOL

#447 3 years ago
Quoted from Plumonium:

Humidity is mostly a factor for drying time but does not impact adversely the quality of the clear job. Temp is more critical imho.

Thanks Plu! I thought I had read somewhere about humidity potentially causing some issues. Good news is that it dropped to 51% and I was able to shoot a can and a half getting three good applications. Whew! Seems to have turned out well. This locks in my airbrush layers, next is key lining and minor touch ups. After that another coat of clear, then decals, then final coat!

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#449 3 years ago
Quoted from Schwaggs:

Looking great!
I see you have star rollovers inserted backwards for painting. Do those stay in for all coats or just the earlier coats? What is your strategy there?

I plan to keep them in for all coats...I haven't really read anywhere that this is a bad thing or any warnings from Vid or others that recommend this. So far, it hasn't caused any issues! I do take care in removing them to ensure I don't also take up any of the clear around them.

#453 3 years ago
Quoted from klr650:

How long do you wait before rocking them out? Do you pull them right away, or do you wait after the clear flashes or do you leave them in till the clear is hardened? I am about a day away from clearing so I want to do this right! Thanks!

Don't wait long! No more than an hour? Just to the point where the clear is "dust safe". A couple of times they almost didn't want to come out without taking some of the clear with it. But gently rocking them breaks the seal and they do come right out after that. Definitely don't leave them in for more than a few hours or they might get sealed in (I suppose I would cut them free with an xacto if that happens).

I might just try pulling them right after too. I'm more afraid of dropping them while the clear is still wet.

#467 3 years ago
Quoted from gmkalos:

Yea but one thing is in that first hour or so when the clear is hardening you don't want anything over your playfield, if particulate stuff gets sprinkled in to your wet coat forget it man you just entombed it into the coat of clear lol. I would personally wait a few hours until all coats are done and cut them outwith an exacto knife..

That's a good reason to stay away for sure! I always test the side edge just in case. AND keep my hairsock on as well! I've already had a close call with a stray hair! I think they say 90 minutes or something for "touch dry", but mine seemed really fast. But it has been hot. YMMV

2 weeks later
#480 3 years ago

I'm an idiot. I've read many posts in this topic and elsewhere about the importance of MULTIPLE THIN layers of clear over decals.

I had one thin coat and thought I would be okay. I thought wrong.

This is what happens when you get impatient and decide to get out of the boat. Never get out of the boat.

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#481 3 years ago

This has been mentioned several times in this thread, but I think it's important to repeat. Unlike traditional HVLP spray guns, SprayMax does not allow you to apply an even, thin coat.

The best you can do is a thin "orange peel" coat. If your like me that seems wrong.

But I think it's okay. I think multiple coats of this thin "orange peel" will ultimately turn out okay because you will ultimately sand it and apply thicker coats. That seems like others experience.

It feels weird because it looks pretty bad, but I don't see any way around it. I think this is mostly a challenge for clearing over decals, so if you aren't doing decals this isn't as critical (see my previous post!).

Anyone else want to confirm or add to this particular behavior with SprayMax 2k?

#488 3 years ago

Round 2. Used a whole can (almost, as others have mentioned, I stop before it's completely out so I don't get a blast of 2k globs) about 7 thin coats. Decal edges started to fade around the fifth coat and were nearly gone by the 6th and are really hard to find with the 8th (I lost track. Might be the 7th or 9th!).

As you can see...lot's of orange peel. My final coat may be tomorrow. Not sure there's any point in waiting?

And to clarify, for those who have had to spray over decals and deal with this orange peel surface, do you sand the orange peel before applying your final medium coats, or spray right onto the orange peel.

Its not totally clear, but it sounds like some folks have sprayed medium coats over the orange peel without sanding to good effect.

IMG_6259 (resized).jpg

#491 3 years ago
Quoted from gmkalos:

Yea I would sand it and knock it down you always sand between coats. The problem with not sanding between coats aside from not leveling it and transferring those dimples/orange peel to the next coat, is that you wont get that deep crystal clear look. When your pf is generally leveled and you have been leveling it out using 1500 between coats its easy to keep adding layers and doing a quick block sanding between coats with just 2000 grit as you move towards your final top coat.

Thanks! That's my default understanding. but some responses sounded like they didn't, which might be an option. Frankly, I have PTSD with decals and clear now after my first go, so I have some anxiety about putting down a thicker coat. Restoration is for the fearless or foolish!

#494 3 years ago
Quoted from gmkalos:

I don't blame you man I'm actually really enjoying watching you recover so nicely on your Sinbad pf from all these problems, but your doing some cool experimentation that's helping us all in the long run dude thanks much!
On that last coat you just layed down it looks like you did a mist coat and sprayed too light, see the mist coat is only good as the initial coat because your going to fill in all that with a heavy coat next while that mist coat is wet and hasn't flashed off completely yet (2-3 min). All coats should be generally heavy after that otherwise like now you are just creating more work for yourself knocking all those little pinholes down. When you spray adjusting your overlap lines and spray speed is the only way to adjust the thickness of the coat, painters often talk about watching the coat and keeping it wet. Basically what your are trying to do is spray out this blob, blended together and float it on the playfield as evenly and flat as you can spray it. If I am spraying a pf and want a heaver coat I will lap my lines and slow down my pace more.
I have to tell you there's is a point when you have too much material on there and you will need to take a few more days between coats to dry out otherwise it seems to wrinkle the previous coat. I think this is because the previous coat is still off gassing and by sealing it on another coat your trapping those gasses from escaping, painting is encapsulation. I think that's what your dealing with now with that massive orange peel there. Otherwise you just sprayed too thin and just needed to spray a thicker coat be cautious.

Thanks! I appreciate the honest assessment! I have decided I'm going to wait a week before doing any more coats. I know that the clear has probably mostly cured after 24 hours, but I don't have to rush. And I have to think the more time that the existing coat has have to 'gas off' and the more time the decals 'stabilize' with the clear coat (if that's a 'thing'!) the less likely the next coat will cause some of those issues that you are referring to.

#497 3 years ago
Quoted from gmkalos:

When you are building it up say 3rd can you should give it more time to set. I only get about 2-3 heavy coats out of 1 can at my speed spraying and overlapping my lines. I think it is the off gassing of the thinners reacting to the say 3-6 coats you previously sprayed underneath, so if you are on a 2nd or 3rd can you really want those coats to be pretty dried out before you spray.

Well, the good news is that between each 'coat' (for me, that is usually 2-3 passes - with the first being medium and the final two being a bit thicker) there is a lot of time between the next coat due to the airbrushing. I didn't think about it before, but that is probably a good thing for me.

Base Coat: Aug 27
Touchup/Orange & White Airbrush Sealing Coat: Sep 3rd (1 Week)
Decals and Yellow Airbrush Sealing Coat: Sep 27th (2 1/2 Weeks)
The above had to be sanded back due to the wrecked decals.
Decal Sealing Coat "mist/light" - Oct 7th (1 1/2 weeks)

#498 3 years ago
Quoted from gmkalos:

On that last coat you just layed down it looks like you did a mist coat and sprayed too light, see the mist coat is only good as the initial coat because your going to fill in all that with a heavy coat next while that mist coat is wet and hasn't flashed off completely yet (2-3 min). All coats should be generally heavy after that otherwise like now you are just creating more work for yourself knocking all those little pinholes down.

First, this was a super-helpful post. Thank you!

Second...Eureka! This is it! I'm going to sound stupid, but I always thought it was a terrible idea to spray anything BEFORE the minimum flash-off has happend (10-15 minutes). I think I had read somewhere that you can get clouds or fisheyes or worse if you don't wait for the 'flash off'. So basically I was under the impression that you NEVER do anything before the flash off is done.

ugh. Yeah, knowing this would have saved me a couple of hours of sanding.

I don't want to assume anything more, but so I understand this better Typically when you are laying down coats of clear you generaly want to wait for the previous coat to 'flash off' (e.g. 10-15 min between coats) - the big exception being when clearing over decals. Because it needs to be light so the decals don't 'burn, you don't want to wait more than 2-3 minutes with thicker coats.

The logic being that those first 4 minutes or so that your 'light/mist' coat sits on the decals is enough to 'insulate' (or chemically change/) the decal and your then okay to apply a thicker coat? My only problem with this is that was kind of what I did the first time, but my second coat was very, very thick.

Do I have that right?

#499 3 years ago

Okay, I've sanded down my latest 'mist/orange peel' layer. About two hours. Electric sander and block sander. Still a few 'sparkles' around the decals (on the right by "100 or 1000". I don't want to go too far. Also a few touch ups with black paint which show up well. Normally you would see my light reflecting off this, so its pretty 'toothy' for the most part.

I'm assuming that while these pin pricks aren't great, I can probably clear over them with a thick layer and fill them in. True/False?

Apologies to everyone else who is probably as sick of seeing this playfield as I am!

IMG_6277 (resized).jpg

#508 3 years ago
Quoted from gmkalos:

When you have minor imperfections when you have made a full pass along the pf and its wet just go back to those areas and spray into them. Watch this video of this guy spraying the 2nd WW pf and how he goes back and sprays into certain areas, as long as the coat is wet you can add to it.
» YouTube video

Excellent info. Thank you!

1 week later
#515 3 years ago
Quoted from mavantix:

Put down 1.5 cans of clear on my BTTF playfield today, sanded between the coats but I did not like how the sandpaper was dragging the clear and smudging black dust into the clear. Had to naptha and sand that out. It’s a little rough up close, so I guess it needs sanding and more coats? Advice?
Here’s an exaggerated picture using flashlight and macro:

That looks almost identical to my earlier issue (scroll up and check out the similar texture on my Sinbad). Embarrassingly I did mine that way on purpose as I was attempting to put down a “very light” coat of SM2k over decals.

The buggest drawback with SM2k is you really can’t get a lite coat (which is not the same as a lite pass, which was my confusion).

Anyway, since I just recovered from this last of many errors, I’ll share my solution. I was able to get my playfield nice and flat and smooth by wet sanding with an electric mouse sander or my random orbit at 400 grit. I don’t get any scratches or black dust. It looks great now. I use 400 for all layers to give them tooth. Final layer I just started with 800 since it was smooth. Never stay in one place and go the same direction as much as possible.

Also: wet sand! Once I started wet sanding it really makes the process a lot smoother too. Just a bit more messy. A couple of squirts of water gets all that dust out of your sandpaper and keeps most of it from flying up in the air.

The “black dust” is a concern.. could your sander be burning up? I can’t imagine that your clear coat was harder than sandpaper at this point. Maybe a bad batch of sandpaper?

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