tagged for interest

600 seems a bit too much. I would lightly sand starting with 800 just in case the coarser grit telegraphs once the clear shrinks?
What do you guys think?

Is rapid prep made by the same company that makes the other one to remove mylar?

I have used actual lemon essential oil to remove stickers my daughter laid down on a hardwood floor, and to my surprise, the sticker came off rather quickly, with no residue so I am wondering what other chemicals these have....

even brand new games, have die back. Just look closely around inserts and you will see it.

I dont have access to naptha where I live. It is banned here and really do not want to experiment with camp fuel to see what happens.

All that to say, can I just use rapid prep followed by rapid tac and get spraying?

how long ago was that? I recently went to a different Sherwin Williams in Kanata and they did not have it and they told me they cannot get it. Could be just that store/management?

I will give them a call, if that fails, can one of you sell me a 1/4 gallon ? I can bring my own bottle and collect it. PM if you can. thanks

I have been following HEP here on pinside because I love his work and because I like to pick up the little details as he goes, it helps me learn and improve my pinball fixing skills.

All that to say, he recently said that adhesion promoter should always be used when clearing a PF. I am not questioning his word as his work speaks for itself and he is a professional painter by trade.

All that to say and because this is a canned product, how can the ‘adhesion’ be promoted when using this product?

Thanks

So cromax is sprayed before the can?
Or is the promoter mixed with the clear?

In this case it would not work with this product due to the method of application/can.

Just a bit confused

How many coats does the manufacturer of 2K recommend?
Been following a very popular restorer who said that more than 2 coats is not only a waste of time but also not recommended as the chemical is not meant to bond to multiple layers, or in his own words, 'there is not a single 2K clear coat manufacturer that recommends more than 2 coats'. Not questioning his work, nor word as he is for me the best of the best in restoring but I will not mention his name to avoid starting a debate or forum drama.

With that said, I keep seeing people doing 3-4-6 layers of this stuff...

what does the manufacturer recommend?

thanks for that, sorry, I keep using you as example for things, it is just because you put out the best work that I have seen in this industry and that is what I am aiming for!

Allow me to understand this better.
What total thickness are we aiming for after two-three coats (or when it is flat).

I have worked with paint, automotive paint that is and have extensive experience wet sanding and buffing off scratches off. All that to say, a thin film of clear can endure a lot of sanding -reasonably done- before you go through it. Technique is important.

Are you suggesting that sanding between coats must be done with care due to the thickness of this material?

thanks for sharing this.

how many can did you use for the cab?

I am gearing up to get this done in the spring. I am not sure what mask to buy for spraying clear, and want to make sure I am wearing the right 3M filter for the task.

always wondered how to remove the bottom panel? isn't it proved and inserted on the side of the cab? Really curious if you want to share the process!

thanks gents.

I recently played a game clearcoated with this stuff. The ball glides as if it was freshly waxed, better than a new NIB Stern, no exaggeration.
Super slick and seems to make a extremely hard surface too.
Very impressed!

I played a game that was done with this stuff and was very slick, it felt like playing on a game a PF protector, same effect. The game plays very fast.
I dont think it changed anything else other than that in my opinion.

I am thinking that if you sand it, you would have to go up to 3000 then polish, so it will be slick anyway. Also playing thousand of times will eventually wear the clear, due to the natural abrasion of the ball.

All that to say, I would not mind if it is super slick at the beginning, in fact, I prefer a 90s game to play as fast as possible as they are still slower than modern games.

If you guys are going to buff, I have seen HEP use a rotary polisher with no issues but that is because he has lots of experience doing it.
I would instead use a D/A with forced rotation, like a flex or anything with force rotation. Much safer, you will never go through the clear and will most likely take 10 times longer overheat.
I have solid experience polishing paint and forced rotation also leaves a much nicer finish, just takes a hair longer than a rotary.

You have to be really bad at polishing to burn paint with a D/A.
I used a flex with force rotation to polish high end cars after wet sanding the paint.
Force rotation is the key word here. A random orbital with no force rotation is a dated tool that will produce some result in 10-20x the time forced rotation does.

Hope that helps now back to more clear coating!

Maybe the whole respirator mask / iso conversation is more of a 'cover my a$$' on the mask manufacturer than actually whether the mask is capable of filtering iso or not?

http://chess-safety.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/0406_respirators_isocyanates_spray_painting.pdf

that is because you are using a very VERY weak DA free spinning polisher, you will polish with that DA but it will take VERYYYYY LOONG to achieve the same results you would with a force rotation DA but in 1/10th of the time. It really is the way to go.

Do not use that, instead, sell it and spend a little more in a professional tool like a FLEX 3401 or anything force rotation from Makita or other brand name. If you You will not burn through the paint with a DA force rotation

I have hundreds of hours behind a polisher and that DA you are using is just a very poor choice if you valuate your time. Y
Once you try force rotation you will understand.

A rotary polisher is the next step but it requires excellent technique and it is really not required for a one off like we do. HEP uses a rotary and that is fine, but you need to understand that beast well if you are going to use it.

Yup, the most common one. This machine is great when you want to polish something every weekend by removing the absolute minimum clear. Because it is free spinning you cannot and should not add any pressure or it stalls.
It will polish but it is just too slow for the amount of polish you need to do, which is a lot to try to come back from this amount of haze/scratch removal.

You will thank me once you do switch over! The flex is an awesome polishing machine.

I have seen HEP using a pad 'interface pad' in between the sand paper and the machine. This is a common practice according to my conversation with him, a quick exchange we had over YouTube a few months back. Super helpful.

This allows the paper to flex under crevasses and odd shapes or uneven surfaces, this allows the paper to reach the spaces that are below the highest cleared part of the pf.

I am not sure if what I see in the pictures are non-sanded parts of the PF but if they are not, an interface pad will solve that.

Do it.
It is bothering you enough to post about it.
It would keep up at night. Lol I know the feeling.
Do it. Deal it with. Come out stronger “I did that” and feel good about it.

This is amazing. Really well done.

What is this diamond coat?
Looks like a brush on type product

very interesting, I am curious on the compatibility of this under a 2k clear.

looks great, I had seen them. I am not an expert by any means but would these 2 bond to each other or is there a change that the 1k and 2K might eventually ghost ?

I am surprised some of you did not know about the torch trick, it goes to show how a lot of these skills are transferable from other hobbies...

I got 'roasted' in another thread by a couple pinsidesr when I mentioned that I use both skills from the 'auto bodywork' and 'woodworking' and they started a witch hunt against me as to how I was going to cause people to 'damage' their games... I know how to work paint and have use some woodworking skills to workaround other issues as well...
The torch trick I learned when I built a table for our house and had to use epoxy to fill some holes.

I see a lot of wive tales in this hobby, for example, people continuing to use a plastic polishing compound to 'clean' playfields, and when challenged with facts they just react negatively because 'this is how is had been done for 20 years' . Then you wonder why a 10 year old PF is covered in scratches and looks very cloudy....

Anyway, rant over! the torch does work!

So what finish do you use for a pf? Matte or glamour?

I respectfully want to ask the following, since we are in a painting thread:

Why do you polish clearcoat with a polish designed for plastic?
I think personally is a very poor choice, to get clear coat to shine properly you can do better and achieve better results if you use compounds formulated in compound or polish form or something even better: like optimum spray polish that grinds down to finer grit as you polish.

You will get a much better shine than using novus which is really not formulated to cut clear coat.

I dont polish the clear coat of my vehicle with novus, why would I polish the same clear on my pinball with novus.

I personally think novus is just a wives tale that has been passed down over yhe years ans people dont know better and xontinue using it. It is very gritty and therefore cleans due to its abrasiveness, wipe a cloth with it on your Cc by hand and with thr same flashlight you are using now shine a light on your pf and get ready for “swirl galore”. Trust me.
I dont polish anything that needs clarity (like clearcoat does) by hand. Not even Mr Miyagui can achive q swirl free surface by hand because it would take centuries, we get tired and apply too much pressure, results: more awirls, more clear coat is lost and poor results.
Enter the polisher machine: it is capable of polishing anything, faster, removing less materi than by hand and more clarity even when using the wrong chemical (novus)

If I am wrong please educate me in the art of doing anything pinball with novus, people seem to like this plastic polish compound.
That said, I have hundreds of hours fixing clear coat and for the same reason we dont use tooth paste (also a polisher) we would not use novus.
In other works, toothpaste would also work but it is not formulated to cut clearcoat just like novus is not either.

Here is a much better alternative, your beautiful PF and hours of hard work deserve it:

https://optimumcarcare.com/product/optimum-hyper-polish

I will when I clear coat the lw3 pf I will be working on. But it will be a while.

I will write something here in thr meantime ans can probably just help you by learning a little of what your current process is like.

But always, the principle is thr least aggressive pad for the surface.

More to it later, but tell me a little of what chems and machine you are using and I can guide you.

thanks,

polishing is not that complicated, but knowing the basics and breaking it down to simple principles is what you need you understand, once you do, then it is not anymore about removing scratches but about material removal.

The grit in the compound makes cuts and swirls, hundreds and hundred of this fine swirls will eventually all match up and make the surface flat. Polishing is like a very fine sanding process that can happen in many different ways depending on the tool you use (rotary, dual action, by hand).
a rotary polisher only rotates in circles and heats up the paint really fast, in the wring hands it will cut through clear quickly specially when polishing an angle.

The DA is like a rotary, but slower and while it also rotates in a circular motion it also does it randomly (although always on the same randomness) and this helps in keeping the heat down, it is easier to polish and renders often times, better results than a rotary (if the rotary is used wrong can left ghosting behind).

The DA is slower, A LOT slower and will take a 30-40 session to polish a PF done at 3000 grit.

when you are polishing you are basically sanding again but this time things are getting flattened, this gives you the clarity to see through the clear coat again.

For those of you worried about burning the clear, the DA is the best. You really have to be a bonehead to burn the paint. The rotary is very safe here too considering the surface is flat so if you keep you hand steady and fast, and check for heat you will be ok. I would personally use the rotary now.

Pads and chemicals needed:

here is where the art is at. You want to combine these 2 according to the type of clear you cutting. The aggressiveness of this combo will determine everything els
your cutting time and material removed and final results (clarity). The clarity will only be as good as your chemical used, if the chemical can only break down to 1000 grit or 2000 grit or else. I think optimum renders 6000 grit at the end of the polishing cycle and starts at about 1200.

The goal is: remove the absolute minimal paint and obtain 98% clarity (you will never know when 100% is reached) but once you are happy you stop.
Happy for me is: no more swirls, the surface is perfect. There are no visible scratches.

If you had a metal substrate you can measure your paint thickness before and after, but since we work with wood you can't. You don to know how much material you are removing here, but in my experience, with a DA, the removal is negligible.

There isn't a fast rule to know what combo of liquid and or paste and pad you need to use, so you will have to try it.
Once you polish the paint and measure your time/results you will know whether you are cutting too fast or too slow.

That said...
For a PF already sanded up to 3000 or 5000 (or any number after 1000 grit) you do not want to use compound. Compound is used for old paint that has been exposed to the elements, bird dropping and has TOO many imperfections so you want to give yourself a good base to polish off. You would otherwise polish all the imperfections to 100% clarity, but the imperfections would remain and the scratches would still be visible. You would end up with a really good clarity but a lot of light swirls and bird droppings would be actually popping out as well (we are talking paint on cars here, therefore the paint droppings example

So, for your PF, once you have sanded it and it is evenly sanded (this step is crucial) you proceed to use POLISH (not compound).
You then tried your softest pad and give it a whirl. Are you on DA? criss cross pattern, you move really slow with a DA and I mean this, less than 5 inches in a 1 thousand -2 thousand - 3 thousand rhythm, If you are going faster than this, flash news: you will be polishing that surface for an eternity. The DA needs a little time to work the surface, go slower than your think you should, keep moving.

You do a criss cross pattern, overlapping all passes, up down left to right, about 6 times. You then measure your results. Are you progressing?
If ou are not progressing, then the pad is wrong (too soft). Get a new pad that is harder.
Try again. One you figure out your pad then you do not have to do this again unless you change your clear coat.

Simple.

Rotary is the same except that you move a lot faster, you do not stay on the same spot and the motion is steady and medium-fast depending on the pad you use.
Anything wool= MOVE FAST.
anything that is foam is very very very approachable. Use foam.

Whether you use a DA or rotary, do no use your body weight to polish the surface, you only use your hands to keep the polisher FLAT. You are not pushing it into the paint, if you are, then the PAD is wrong. your hand weight is just enough to keep it flat.

How do I know how much pressure? this is simple, flat is flat, if the pad is deforming outward you are pushing it in. If the polisher is walking aways then it is not flat. you will figure this out quickly.
You want the pad to work with you and not work for the pad.

Polishing is really rewarding when done right because your realize the potential the paint had once it achieves its clarity to the max. In the case of paints with pearls is really nice to see those shine again, and a good polished clear returns the true paint colours that are otherwise hidden behind an opaque lens (clear with a poor clarity or swirled up).

These are things that I have done to my own vehicles, and clients vehicles while fixing the paint before installing other paint protectants. Merely as a hobby that it eventually turned into a business, lol like most of the hobbies I enter into. Apparently it is an ADHD thing I have been told. I am no longer in the detailing world because I have other priorities and my only hobby is pinball, lol so there is that. But it was nice to use these skills into this hobby.

Last, but not least:

your polish liquid/cream. the clarity you achieve will be determined by this product. Novus will never have the clarity of any clear polishing product because it just can't, it is probably 1000 grit max.

Might as well use any polish, but if you only have Novus go ahead, use it. It will polish, just do not expect it to be amazingly shiny and if it is, congratulations, your prep work PRIOR to novud paid off. anything would have polished that surface the same, including water.

The polish cream I recommended earlier is exceptionally good and easy to work with. It is my go to always.
3m product is also excellent, but to get good THE BEST results you need to go through the 3 steps or it otherwise won't get you the results you want. The optimum cream breaks down as you polish and it does everything in 1 step unlike the 3m product. Optimum is cheaper and perfect for this application.

Anything is better than Novus, please stop using it. lol

It is likely acting as a compound, in which case you are good to use just a proper compound that will render better results imho.

same principle I explained just a few posts back. the benefit of polishing plastic is that you can polish it for an eternity and you will never cut through.

This is what I use for regular maintenance.
Super convenient

This little is great for regular maintenance and cleaning. I often take the bottom section off and polish with this.
This attachment is perfect for this.

The da does not fit.

The da comes out if I need to polish a pf p it side the game

Pads come in different colours just as guide. They have different rigidness to them, the more rigid the more aggressive it is.
whenever you are searching for the Polish/Pad combo to find your cut, only change one element at the time (unless yo were totally off at first) but the rule of thumb is the least aggressive method first (to remove less clear, because you only have so much of it until there is none).
So always have 2 or 3 different foam pads, these are always found in detailing shops. You have to shop at a professional detailing shop, do not expect to find this at walker nor Home Depot, these things do not exist there. These pads are specifically made for detailing expensive cars.
that said amazon might have some but often times a good detailing shop (if you go down the rabbit hole of detailing you can go nuts, lol) they will have everything you need.