You guys should start an OSHA thread to talk about safety. For anyone who has braved the most dangerous material in a can, how many coats would you be able to get out of a can? I'm trying to get a few playfields ready so I can spray all at once but wondering how far I will be able to go on 1 can.

I wonder if placing the filters in the freezer between coats would extend the shelflife. That usually slows down a chemical reaction.

I’ve used water based clears for 10 years now, without the yellowing. I let the playfields dry thoroughly between coats, and keep the games away from sunlight.

Which clears? I've used water a few times on other things and it always yellows. Roll on, minwax, spray, rustoleum, etc. Always seems to yellow and generally not protect well.

Guys... if the issue is inhaling and skin contact, if I wear a full suit/mask AND hold my breath (again, not making a joke) I don't see what the issue is. Hell, I can run inside the house in between spraying. I bet I could easily get a heavy application done (like 1-2 coats in each direction) within 3-4 breaths. Anyone want to put money on it? Getting ready to do my TOM.

It will not. The volatile organic components are still volatile at temperatures far below freezing. The reaction might slow somewhat but given the already short 30 minute window and the fact that you can't actually gauge the effectiveness, it's probably not worth the hassle.

Also, sealing cartridges in a plastic baggy with volatile residue in the particulate prefilter and on the outside surfaces means that volatiles get into the mouthpiece side of the filter. No bueno.

3M knows their gear better than anyone else. Don't poke the bear.

Minwax Ultimate has given great results. The Minwax Polycrylic is ok, but not as good. The Varathane brand has also been good too.

I've had a good experience with Minwax Ultimate (so far), at least on bare wood. I did a Mata Hari hardtop a few months ago - the first picture is after tear down and before doing anything to the playfield. The second picture is after sanding, 3 coats of Minwax Ultimate on the shooter lane, apron area, and arch area, and the hardtop applied (something weird with the lighting in the second picture makes it appear like the wood tone is not uniform....it really is). Time will tell if it yellows, but so far so good after 3 months.

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Yellowing on the wood is not the issue.
Yellowing on the whites is the problem.
I like varethane and would recommend using it. The difference , as i said before, is that it does not enhance the colors so the game does not look as new as with 2k. That said, the game looks fabulous with out the death factor.
As far as how many cans of 2k to do a playfield: i use one as a base before touch ups and one can to finish coat. I usually have one spare can in reserve for finish but have never needed it.

Could you use something like Minwax Ultimate for the touch up coat and then do a final coat of 2k at the end? That would halve the exposure, at least. Would the Minwax still yellow over time if coated like that?

Why bother? If you're getting exposed once you should wear PPE either way, it sounds like. Based on my home use experience with water based clear, with rattle can clear and now with Spray Max I would almost 100% go with Spray Max for the next playfield. Not only is it like 100% clear, it's hard and you can lay it down fast and it flows. In fact, I already have some here. I'm going to get a bunny suit and full face mask and attempt the holding my breath method. If not, I'll get the proper carts for my mask.

Has anyone tried using 2K clear rapid?

https://www.spraymax.com/en-us/products/product/clear-coats-and-spot-blender/2k-clear-rapid/

Wondering if it would be a good option as the first coat before touchups? It comes in a small can (250ml) so I'd think there would be less waste since I imagine the remaining contents are garbage 24 hours after you mix it up.

Reading the SDS it seems that the contents are very similar to the standard version, just higher concentrations of the main ingredients.

You can also get a supplied air supply system. If your on a budget, buy an used one. I have a SRS supplied air system and it works great.

You guys have sufficiently scared the shit out of me about using this product. I have my mask, suit, etc, all ready to go but now I just want to do varathane lol.

2K really is the best product out there for what we are using it for. There's no need to be scared, but there is a need to be smart and properly protect yourself.

Personally, I'm not scared about the PPE or the product, because effective protection is pretty easy once you know what to buy. I'm way more worried about messing up a good playfield.

Spoke to 3M twice about 2K specifically, they recommend a full face mask (ff400) with peel away disposable films over the lens, problem is eyeglasses. You can get a spectacle kit (ff-400-20) with flip down frames that you can get a prescription from your eye doctor. For now I'm going with a half mask 6000 series mask, 6001 cartridges and P95 filters and change them every time as per their recommendation. I'm going to try these eye protectors, you get 30 uses for $13, I'll see how that goes. Good ventilation and keep the skin covered and rubber gloves should also help. Hope semicolon approves

Link to the eye protection: https://www.northernsafety.com/Product/2845?gclid=Cj0KCQjwocPnBRDFARIsAJJcf94aFaGKOh5qOsuM-9oqm7d340AodRLEH8Vg9mImAbP7BaQVXMIEv14aAqcwEALw_wcB
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Isn't your forehead exposed?

duct tape

If they don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy

heh, any opinion on what 3M said? They say the arms of the eyeglasses are the problem with full face masks, they break the air seal. Do you think their recommendations for filters and cartridges are acceptable?

I loved The Red Green show.

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When the airborne chemicals I'm using list skin and mucous membranes as entry routes, I heed the warning. This stuff has a lot more punch than regular spray paint. If those glasses covers have air holes, I wouldn't use them. They seem to be there to protect your eyes from overspray, not solvent vapour. It also leaves more skin exposed than recommended. I wouldn't approve it for a workplace as it doesn't meet the minimum standards indicated in the literature. Always trust the literature over a call-centre temp. If I can't get a cellphone company to honour their rep's $50 4G offer, try convincing a judge that 3M should cover your liver transplant costs because you followed telephone advice from the 1-800 line.

I have a beard and wear glasses... so if I was using this stuff every day at work I would just requisition a supplied air hood and be done with it. You can get peel-off sheets for the lenses on those too. At home with a full mask, I trim my beard (hair grows back, spleens don't) and put in a pair of disposable contacts and that maintains the seal without putting myself at risk.

Here's what I can't figure out: Everyone seems to want to know if I'd approve a kludge. Why do you care what I think? I told you the bare minimum requirements already. There aren't alternatives to minimum PPE. Anything else is below minimum, at which point it's your life. You make the call.

From holding your breath and running, to leaving skin and eyes exposed to the fumes: I'm never going to say yes. It's stupid, but y'all can do whatever the hell you want. You're grown adults and make your own choices. Take whatever risks you like with your life. Cigarettes ain't safe neither but I'm not gonna smack one out of your hand. All I can do is share my experience and training, and you can decide if you're the kind of person that likes to do things the wrong way. Your call. Your body. Your choice.

I would second this motion. Don't get me wrong... the advice is very useful and I would absolutely follow it if I use this product in the future (never used it so far). Thanks semicolin for the great info. I just think after 2-3 pages of posts about this safety topic that it's run it's course and just serves to derail the actual discussion of doing the restorations with this product. Just my two cents worth and maybe others don't agree. I can just scroll past it of course, but hard to separate the wheat from the chafe with so much repeated posts saying the same thing. I mean, come on semi... even you must be tired of repeating yourself time after time? Just use minimum or above minimum PPE and that's it. Case closed.

Well, you've admitted yourself there are alternatives because you are making the judgement call as to what would be allowed in your work environment, someone else in your position may heed what 3M has to say and they are making that call. I can't see why wearing a full suit and mask but holding my breath isn't a valid solution in this situation. If my skin is completely covered and there are no vapors entering my lungs, what's the issue? Are you worried I couldn't hold my breath? I know you wouldn't validate that kind of solution for a workplace but, as someone who somewhat prides themselves on finding innovation where I can to speed up or make easier tasks I need to complete, I am having trouble finding what you consider a fault in that solution. I checked in to the scuba mini air tanks and they are just about as expensive as the fresh air systems so no real savings there. If I were doing this daily, or more than once or twice every 5 years or so, I could see the ease and convenience of a fresh air system. Otherwise it is going to be something that sits in my shop next to my welder gathering dust. I'm not asking for your validation or agreement, just wondering why you think that doesn't work for my situation?

I'll still consider the cartridges for my mask. At least I know with the Spray Max I can put the can in the fridge to delay curing but with my level of playfield restoration experience it takes several coatings and sanding and such to get a playfield right and that means 4, maybe 5 or 6 sets of cartridges and most of those in use for just a few minutes. Yes, some waste compared to my health is negligible but I still cringe at the trash.

I am with you 100%. Tired? I am *exhausted* by it.

I've been patiently giving out free professional advice to help my friends here live longer and there is nothing more to add. There hasn't been anything to add for days.

Trying to defend or beg approval of half-baked shortcuts is beyond rude, and we're all annoyed by it. I already told everyone what needs to be done. If someone doesn't want to do it, they don't have to, but for everyone else's sake don't tell anyone about your shortcuts because the best case scenario is we think you're foolish and worst case someone copies you and gets hurt. No. Stop it.

Thank you for doing this! I (and many others who are reading but haven't posted, I'm sure) really appreciate it!

So, I have a question that may have been answered already, or possibly in Vid’s playfield restoration guide... but I’ll risk it and ask anyway.

Do people recommend using spraymax 2k to clear over new CPR playfields? I purchased an earthshaker playfield to do a swap and it looks fantastic to me already. I am not as picky as some though, but definitely want it to last decades if I go through the trouble of doing a PF swap. Should I just install and forget it? Or should I add additional clear to give it more protection/strength? And if so, what sanding method should i start with? I will go back and read more now before I do it, so don’t need details... but if someone wants to give a brief list of steps, that would be awesomely appreciated!!

I appreciate it too, although I'm not sure I should ha ha. Sounds like despite my best / reasonable precautions and PPE and prep for using this stuff and KBS DFC in the past, I'm probably gonna get cancer even sooner than I suspected. Ignorance might have been bliss!

It's a shame this stuff has to be so muddied and confusing. It seems almost deliberate! Like the average joe has a degree in biochemistry to decipher the legalese. When so many other "experts" seem to offer conflicting advice.

And while it's easy for someone with a full grasp of the problem to be all "you're a moron who deserves to die if you don't spend the $750 to protect yourself" - well to some extent that may be true but it's pretty tough to be suddenly faced with "What, $750 on bulky equipment I'll probably use just once for 15 minutes, to paint a game that might not even be worth that???".

So by that token finding a pro to paint it would be a bargain! Except I'd tried previously on multiple occasions to find a local auto guy to do it, none turned up. And the Pinside-pros are all backed up and charge that same $750 or more, nevermind shipping and such. So it well and truly sucks for the hobbyist trying to restore a game on their own / on a budget.

I had great results spraying the DCF roll-on with a Wagner sprayer though. I just hated the cleanup with Xylene which was toxic as all fallout. Might have to go back to that route though, if it's the most known / manageable / least-hazardous DIY quantity / 2pac-like results.

Oh well. YOLO. Climate change will get me before the cancer does...

I'll do it. $450! As long as you are comfortable with me using the "hold your breath" method!

After all this safety talk when clearing a playfield, I'm now cringing at this part of a hardtop installation video I watched earlier this year (starts at 3:04 mark):

Still nothing compared to Milton:

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He's holding his breathe and the GIF is edited to not show him sprinting away!

But I'm going to wear protective gear!

If it looks fantastic and you’re happy with it - install it and play it.

You’ll never wear through any clear coat playing in your house ... even if you own it for 50 years.

rd

I think the Roadshow Fish might have something to say about that

If you were worried about that, a strip of Mylar in that area will suffice. Same as Stern puts in front of kick outs ...

rd

Thanks Dave! That’s where I was leaning anyway... but then I read these threads/posts about people going all Kruzman on their NOS playfields... or I see High_End_Pins making a new playfield even more perfect... and I start overthinking it. In the end, if I want that perfection I think I’ll just send to Chris and pony up the cash to have it be perfect. But your advice is spot on for any pf swaps that i might do myself.

I'm all in on PPE since it looks like I'm going to have to spray this stuff myself. I'm thinking one of those fairly inexpensive popup canopies and plastic sheeting to enclose the sides, along with some filters and a box fan to make a temporary spray booth. I get the idea of the OV+N95 standard for the respirator, but when I looked at bunny suits, I notice that everything I looked at said 'breathable'. WTF? I think I'd be better off sweating than having that stuff be able to penetrate the suit, or am I being too paranoid? I thought Tyvek was pretty impervious to vapors.

I think we're all likely being overly paranoid. The standards we are talking about are for people who do this kind of thing day in and day out; have constant exposure. A tyvek suit will be fine for the 10 - 15 seconds at a time you'll be spraying

Yeah, kinda thought so, but I defer to the experts. And the cost of filters is not going to be that great; it will be some time between the lockdown coat and the final coats, so no point in even thinking of trying to preserve the filters for later use.

Can we get back to seeing freshly cleared playfields

Oh! A question that hasn't already been asked! Yes! Tyvek is fine for this; it's not as breathable as their marketing suggests, and is sufficient for this application. The garment shouldn't be used if it gets wetted/soaked by the spray, but otherwise it's totally cool.

For safety nerds: From Tyvek's applications FAQ:
"Can Tyvek® garments be used for paint spraying applications?
Yes, testing on isocyanate spray paint systems show that Tyvek® can be used with isocyanate-based paints, under proper conditions. Garments made of Tyvek® are not appropriate in spray applications if they become soaked with overspray and back splatter. The well-designed spray booth should not result in
excessive over-spray and back-splatter. Some two-part, isocyanate-based, spray paints contain hexamethylene diisocyante (HMDI) and aliphatic isocyanate oligomers. In many isocyanate paint formations, there is less than 0.1% free HMDI present in the hardener component of the paint formulation which quickly reacts upon mixing with the other component. The aliphatic isocyanate oligomers have low vapor pressure and are present as an aerosol during spraying. Particle barrier testing demonstrates the barrier of Tyvek® to micron sized aerosols. If conditions during the spray operations do result in excessive wetting of the garment, then breathable film products, such as NexGen® or monolithic film products such Tychem® QC or CPF® 1 should be considered."

.

2k on Motortrend Network, Full Custom Garage show. Star of show mixed and sprayed 2k and mentioned it by name.
Zero ppe.

But that's not what you said...

We were talking about Earthshaker.

It goes without saying that if you have known high wear areas (like Shadows Sanctum lock) then you’d put some Mylar down.

rd

For Earthshaker that would be the arrow above the left flipper. That area gets some abuse....

for those interested in an alternative to Spraymax 2K, I've posted results of my testing with "Clear Diamond Finish." I didn't want to mess with this thread so I started a new one. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/clear-diamond-finish-alternative-to-spraymax-2k