Do not trust that cartridge, that's for sure. It's packed with the finest Chinesium filtration agent.

Most definitely. But stick a 25 foot hose on it and have the end 15 feet away from the spray booth and you don’t even need a filter

For an extra couple hundred bucks you can get an even better one that won't suffocate you if the battery dies: https://www.amazon.com/Breathecool-Supplied-Respirator-System-tyvek/dp/B00GAFD5G0/ref=sr_1_7

Guys... I wouldn't be spraying SprayMax if I was dropping a few hundo on a breathing mask. Ugh.. this is disappointing news. I already feel my brain cells dying. So there are no other options? And it sounds like not just glasses but sealed googles or a full face mask are needed?

Did I stutter?

Well, I do have drain bramage now.

I’m guessing your Low-cost option is to use a different product. Is there an “inferior to spraymax 2k but won’t kill you if you use it” thread?

1k seems like a possibility, not to hijack this thread but I see how it’s not as hard but no details on what that actually means for a pf...if it would work for 20 years instead of 100. Would that be adequate?

There was a thread about this stuff called KBS diamond clear. Wishing there was more trial and error to it. Seemed like the perfect alternative.

I have used varathane.
Not as toxic and is water base.
I clear coated a playfield with it and played the snot out of it for 10 years.
Down side is there is a tinge of yellow to it after 10 years .
Even at the beginning the colors are muted rather than deep and vivid.

Do you have a source for N-Butyl Acetate causing CNS and brain damage? Everything I am reading states respiratory irritation but no mention of potential CNS damage.

Do you have pictures of the yellowing? I have always been curious of how bad it actually yellows....

Sure! You may have better luck searching for medical studies and other data if you look for n-butyl acetate under its alternate names: butyl ester, and butyl ethanoate.

Much of our understanding of n-butyl acetate's effects of acute CNS depression and chronic CNS damage is based on our understanding of other similar organic solvents. Because studies are incomplete for the n- isomer of butyl acetate, most data sheets will say only "Central Nervous System effects are anticipated. Follow PPE manufacturer recommendations" or some other such lawyerese to push the responsibility on workers to protect themselves against things that they have no understanding of. If positive damage results start to come back on this isomer, I feel like manufacturers will switch their product to a different solvent with little conclusive health information so they can put weasel words in SDS sheets again.

Here's a really basic place to start for general information listed about n-butyl acetate and other acetates so that you can work your way outward on alternate product names and chemical analogues: https://www.encyclopedia.com/science/academic-and-educational-journals/butyl-acetate

I have an F-14 that I'm restoring right now and after reading all these posts about the effects of Spraymax I'm a bit reluctant to use it.

Originally I had planned on buying some N95/OV for my half masks coupled with some goggles and a full suit.but now I'm thinking I'll have to buy at least a Breathe-Cool unit as a SAR. That will run me at least $700CDN... I guess I can use it for other paint/sanding projects too though...

I think I'm going to look into that KBS Diamond Clear some more.

Would be interested to know more

KBS doesn't make their safety data sheets freely available on their web site unless you send them a request to identify yourself and ask for permission. That's a huge red flag to me. I asked anyway and I'll let you know what I find out.

In the application installations on their web site for the spray product, KBS does say the following: "Always use NIOSH/MSHA approved air supplied respirator." They don't even suggest a cartridge-based solution.

How about using one of those tiny scuba tanks?

It is not as bad as it sounds.
The best way to describe it is: it looks like an older game.
This pic is after 10 years of use. I do not think it is any softer than 2k once it has cured.
The 2k makes the colors seem deeper and more vivid. Varethane does not enhance the colors at all.

100_2165 (resized).JPG

I am not interested in the KBS spray product as it sounds like a full spray booth/air system needed as well, but the liquid stuff looks pretty safe, their demo application video shows a guy with roller and doesn’t even have a mask on. So I have a can of the stuff on the way and film some experiments on paper plates with brushing and rollering. I will post my results. Probably start another thread so it doesn’t distract from this one.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&time_continue=222&v=wq0YsDXeOgQ

They recommend a xylene thinner so volatiles are definitely involved. I've requested the roll-on SDS as well. I don't trust marketing videos, and I don't trust companies that put up obstacles to obtaining safety data. It's abnormal.

Yea the SDS is the first thing I went to look for too and it needed to be requested, which is super odd. I want to chalk it up to being a smaller company, but even still...

Curious how they'll respond.

Alright, so I wish I could attach PDF documents to these comments, but I can't. Instead, I'll respond with the main components and 3M protection recommendations in two different posts below, the first for the roll on product and the second for the aerosol product. They are very different from each other and should not be used interchangeably.

One thing I noticed is that the SDS for both products has not been updated since 2016, and the roll-on product's SDS lacks information such as mandatory GHS pictograms. The product would likely have difficulty meeting Canadian requirements for workplace use, although I'm not sure what US requirements are. I do know our lungs are the same. Anyway, on with the show.

Images can be PDFs on Pinside, I've posted them that way before.......

KBS Coatings DiamondFinish Clear (ROLL ON)

The manufacturer's health hazard statements:

Routes of exposure: Inhalation, Ingestion, Skin contact, Eye contact.
Inhalation: The vapor is slightly irritating to the eyes and the respiratory tract.
The substance may cause effects on the central nervous system.Exposure to high concentration of vapors may result in unconsciousness.
Ingestion: Swallowing the liquid may cause aspiration into the lungs with the risk of chemical pneumonitis. The symptoms of chemical pneumonitis do not become manifest until a few hours or even a few days have passed.
Skin: The liquid defats the skin, resulting in dry skin and irritation. Eye Direct contact with the eyes may result in an irritation and swelling.
Chronic: See section 11 for additional toxicological data. Repeated or prolonged skin contact may cause allergic contact dermatitis, with redness, blisters, cracking and swelling of the skin. Sensitization through skin contact.
The substance may have effects on the central nervous system and liver, resulting in impaired functions.

The manufacturer's PPE recommendations:

Eyes: Avoid contact with eyes. Use safety glasses and/or chemical splash goggles if splashes are possible.
Skin: Avoid repeated or prolonged skin contact. Wear overalls, rubber boots and impervious gloves. Remove protective clothing and wash exposed areas with soap and water prior to eating, drinking or smoking.
Respiratory: Use a respirator when airborne concentrations approach the ES (section 8). If using a respirator, ensure that the cartridges are correct for the potential air contamination (i.e. organic vapor) and are in good working order.

The manufacturer's component listing, and the 3M respirator requirement for vapours present:

Aliphatic Polyisocyanate 30-40% : Unlisted polyurethane component
Solvent Naphtha, light aromatic 20-30% : Full mask OV
Acrylic Resin 30-40% : Unlisted polyurethane component
n-Butyl Acetate CAS 123-86-4 1-2% : Full mask OV
Ethyl Acetate: Full mask OV

In conclusion: Although the manufacturer does not recommend a full face respirator, and their instructional and sales videos do not show anyone using a respirator for this product, this is contrary to their SDS. Their SDS recommends a respirator but does not specify full or half. 3M's respirator guide indicates that for the vapours emitted by this roll-on product, a full mask respirator with cartridges marked OV are sufficient for this use case. There is no N95 particulate filter, short-term use, or supplied air requirement indicated, and so the respirator requirements are less stringent than for 2K. Due to the potential short term CNS effects and chronic hepatoxicity and CNS toxicity, use of KBS DiamondFinish Clear Roll-on without appropriate barriers to body entry is never recommended.

DiamondFinish Clear SDS.pdf

KBS Coatings DiamondFinish Clear (AEROSOL)

The manufacturer's health hazard statements:

Signal word: Danger
Hazard statements: Extremely flammable aerosol. Contains gas under pressure; may explode if heated. Causes serious eye irritation. May cause an allergic skin reaction. May cause cancer. Suspected of damaging fertility or the unborn child. May cause drowsiness or dizziness. May cause damage to organs through prolonged or repeated exposure.

The manufacturer's PPE recommendations:

Hygienic protection: Immediately remove all soiled and contaminated clothing. Wash hands after use. Avoid contact with the eyes and skin. Do not eat or drink while working.
Breathing equipment: A respirator is generally not necessary when using this product outdoors or in large open areas. In cases where short and/or long term overexposure exists, a charcoal filter respirator should be worn. If you suspect overexposure conditions exist, please consult an authority on chemical hygeine.
Hand protection: Nitrile gloves.
Protective gloves. The glove material must be impermeable and resistant to the substance.
Eye protection: Tightly sealed goggles

The manufacturer's component listing, and the 3M respirator requirement for vapours present:

dimethyl ether 39.99% : Supplied Air or OV(Short Service)
78-93-3 methyl ethyl ketone 15.64% : Full face OV
108-65-6 PM acetate 14.57% : OV
108-94-1 cyclohexanone 8.28% : OV
108-88-3 Toluene 7.82% : OV
80-62-6 methyl methacrylate 0.12% : OV
64742-82-1 Naphtha (kerosene petroleum), hydrodesulfurized heavy 0.12% : OV/P95

In conclusion: This is a conundrum. The manufacturer says on their website that the aerosol product should never be used without a respirator, but the SDS goes out of their way to say that one is generally not needed. (WTF) It then lists a number of different ingredients to which there really is no safe amount to inhale. 3M's respirator guide indicates that, much like the 2K clear product, there are compunds present which will immediately shorten the life of an OV cartridge. For the vapours emitted by this roll-on product, a full mask respirator with cartridges simultaneously marked OV and P95 are sufficient for this use case when open new and sealed and replaced within 30 minutes of initial use. Due to known carcinogenicity, mutagenicity, and germ cell teratogenicity of this product's components, use of KBS DiamondFinish Clear Aerosol without appropriate barriers to body entry is never recommended, and there is no safety case to be made to use this product instead of 2K.
DiamondFinish Clear Aerosol SDS.pdf

I am in your debt! Awesome. I never knew this was an option.

Here is the 3M respirator selection guide too, everyone. Never trust a chemical sales company to choose your PPE. Always cross reference the CAS number of a product's dangerous components with the people that make the cartridges to find out if they can actually protect you against the chemicals you're using.

Remember: Organic solvent exposure slows reaction times permanently and will make you a worse pinball player.

Respirator Selection Guide 2018.pdf

I'm using a 3M mask (6001) with p95 cartridges, does this cartridge protect me from 2K if I change it every time or should I be shopping around for a better one? Any recommendations on a mask or is a mechanical airflow system for the best protection? Looking for specific recommendations from the people in the know.

I had obtained the KBS product SDS a few years ago and concluded nearly the same as you guys here. It left me wondering that if KBS wants full protection for spraying it but not rolling it. Why not roll on regular 2PAC, probably the same risks. Makes me wonder if KBS is actually different in any way.

So can you distill this down to us regular folk semicolin ? Do these other two products require any different/less protection?

I think I can spray a playfield fast enough that I don't even need to take a breath while doing it
KBS touts that it is self-levelling and amenable to rolling. Never tried it myself there are some threads on pinside where a few folks show results.

Thought I'd ask an expert...

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/hep-this-week-9-17-18/page/68#post-5019904

lb1: Your pinball expert gave poor advice. It is literally my job to help people select the minimum safe respiratory equipment for chemical exposure. I am a respirator expert.Please trust your respirator expert. I want people here to keep flipping for a long time.

NYP: A P95 is 0% effective against 2K. It will let everything through. Might as well spray it naked. See my earlier recommendation.

BJM-Maxx: The two KBS products are totally different chemically even though they have the same name. They're not interchangeable.

harryhoudini:
2K: Supplied air, or Full mask + OVN95 cartridges new every 30 minutes
KBS DiamondFinish roll on: Full mask + OV cartridges new every day
KBS DiamondFinish Aerosol: Supplied air, or Full mask + OVP95 cartridges new every 30 minutes

Cartridges and filters are different. Cartridges are for chemical vapours, and have to matched very carefully to what is in the environment. Filters are for dust and oil spray. You can save a filter day to day until it get clogged up. Chemical filter media gets consumed and has to be replaced often.

He may be an expert at restoring pinball machines, but it does not make him an expert in the PPE to shoot clearcoats.

I've heard stories of asbestos remediation "experts" that laugh at other experts who wear full PPE saying that they've been exposed to it for years with no effect.

So my takeaway here is that the PPE required for any of these products is at minimum a full mask, bunny suit, gloves, and OVP95 cartridges replaced very frequently. Looks like I'll probably need 3 sets of cartridges, one for the initial coat before doing the paint touch ups and 2 for the final 2 coats.

@semicolon Question on terminology, does P95 refer to particulate filters? This OVP95, is this an organic vapor cartridge coupled with a P95 particulate filter? Would this OV cartridge be sufficient? https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Organic-Vapor-Acid-Gas-Cartridge-6003-07047-AAD-60-EA-Case/?N=5002385+3294780293&preselect=3293786499&rt=rud

Do you have to add on another filter?

Edit: NVM I think I answered my own question by doing some more research. Looks like this kit would have everything needed.
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/All-3M-Products/?N=5002385+3294427649&preselect=3294857497+4294850719&rt=rud

.

The N in N95 stands for
Not Oil Resistant. The P in P95 stands for Oil
Proof. It is effective at pre-filtering 95% of oily particulate contaminants before they hit the chemical neutralizing portion of the cartridge. 2K doesn't have any oily particulates, so the OVN95 is good enough, but the OVP95 is equally effective.

So, the 2K hierarchy of acceptable filters is: OVN95(Good) or OVP95(Good) -> OVN100(Better) or OVP100(Better) -> Supplied air (Best).

That 6003 is an OV/AG cartridge and would need to be coupled with an additional N95 prefilter. You would be better off purchasing a mask that was compatible with the 60921 Organic Vapour Filter Combo: https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/3M-Organic-Vapor-Cartridge-Filter-60921-P100-60-EA-Case/?N=5002385+3294780264&preselect=8720539+8720550+8720746&rt=rud#

This product looks like it will work great. That's a good all in one package. I would recommend it, but pick up some spare cartridges.

The next question is what's the best method to figure out what size you need?

I know I can get a fit test at a distributor, but then I'm locked into buying from them.

I work in a field that has me visiting a lot of industrial companies and my colleagues have had it done, but I haven't had to go to a customer that requires more than a dust mask in my 11 years here.

All this talk has me concerned about how these vapors disperse into the atmosphere. IF I go this route (trying to find somebody to do the clear for me), I would certainly suit up with the appropriate PPE, but I live on a small city lot, so I would be shooting either in the open, or improvising a booth to keep debris out and minimize overspray. Given that, I don't want to poison the neighbors! Anybody have any thoughts or experience?

If you're wearing it every day then a fit test is a good idea. I have a beard so I can't pass one anyway.

For home use (and daily testing), do a pressure test: cover the cartridge intakes with your hands and inhale. The sides of your mask should suck in and stay sucked in for five seconds. Remove oyur hands and take a breath. Now, put your hand over the exhalation valve and breathe out. The sides should puff out and stay puffed out for five seconds.

PinballBillinFL: If you're in the open air in the back yard, you'll probably be okay. Better if you ask the neigbours if they can avoid playing in the back yard for twenty minutes and that way they don't have to put up with it. In open air, these volatiles disperse very quickly, but you can't avoid them if you're doing the work.

I have a couple neighbor yappy shit dogs that I could pipe the vapours over the fence to. hmm.... gots me thinking now

What about the scuba breather idea? Can I use a small air supply instead of a mask or fresh air hose?

I don't know, but if it does not cover your whole face then it isn't safe for the reasons already discussed.

You have three options:
a) Do whatever you want and live with the consequences
b) Do what is known to be safe
c) Outsource to someone else

Pinball is an expensive hobby already. An extra $100 to not be a drooling vegetable in twenty years is worth it to me.

I am a drooling vegetable now.
Shit its too late !

Mind if I call dibs on your Six Million Dollar Man, then?

Ok, so lets say I am doing this outside and I wear a full body suit and face mask (but not a breathing mask). How far would I need to run away each time I spray and hold my breath? Let's assume I'm upwind, for utmost protection. If I hold my breath, spray and then run away 10 feet, is that enough (being upwind)?

Seriously, each time I sprayed my playfield I probably could have done it within a few breaths. The touch ups (clearing over water slides, etc) could easily be done in one breath. I can't see spending money on a set of filters each time I do a touch up. Trying to be safe but practical at the same time.

I am surely considering taking future stuff to an auto body shop, but that doesn't leave me time to do any fixes/touchups and clear those spots individually. Also, I can't feel good about taking them a playfield that still has mechanics under it but I can easily do that work at home. I'll choose some better solution for the future, but since you're the expert I'd like to pick your brain on this and understand what is and isn't possible. I can see if I was standing there for 20 minutes dealing with the clear but I'm just not anywhere close to that.

Yes sir.
It is nice to see some humor.

Not to belittle your point. You are spot on and I am learning as we go.
In the 70s and 80s we were so cavalier about safety and we are all paying for it now.

Dude... stop... stoppp... STOPPPP!!!
B04296DD-563A-4694-A170-EE72271CED04.gif

LMAO

I have a friend that got an extremely terrible form of cancer caused by asbestos... asbestos that traveled home on her father's clothing for a few years when she was a small child!
The repercussions can be eye-popping. (disclosure: I don't know if any of this causes eyes to explode)

I have already told you the safe way to proceed. If a shiny pinball playfield is more important to you than your liver, then I cannot and will not help you further.