(Topic ID: 148509)

The Spiderman VE Buying Power Group

By galaxian

8 years ago


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There are 138 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 3.
#51 8 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nobody is getting rich, I get it. Parts & service is where the money is typically at.

#52 8 years ago
Quoted from Zampinator:

Nobody is getting rich, I get it. Parts & service is where the money is typically at.

I don't know if people are getting rich or not, all I do know is that your 5300 figure is way off, cost is much higher to distributors.

#53 8 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

I don't know if people are getting rich or not, all I do know is that your 5300 figure is way off, cost is much higher to distributors.

Just a guess.
I'll also guess that 7-10% is probably all you typically make per pin, which is silly. And God forbid you over order on titles that don't move your going to take a loss.
I don't miss retail at all!

#54 8 years ago
Quoted from Zampinator:

Just a guess.
I'll also guess that 7-10% is probably all you typically make per pin, which is silly. And God forbid you over order on titles that don't move your going to take a loss.
I don't miss retail at all!

Yea, I feel bad for some distributors that ordered a ton of TFLE and WWELE games. They just didn't move. I personally would never be a distributor. There are so many of them already undercutting one another price wise and the headache alone of service calls/questions and even simple things as the accounting and bookwork that must be done to keep the business running is enough to keep me from being interested in the tiny profit these guys do make. Where they do make out is the few customers who pay MSRP or the guys who have trade ins and used games. Similar to a car dealership, although I do hate when people compare the two industries.

#55 8 years ago
Quoted from flashinstinct:

We can all laugh at this idea. But I'm sure if someone would walk into a distributors with 200 orders they would get a really good deal Not $4800 but still I'd be interested to know what kind of deal that person would get. Or at that point you might just become a distributor LOL.

Wishful thinking. The problem here is SM vault will probably be a limited run of +/- 200. Half will probably go overseas. Distributors have probably already committed to their allocation. Distributors cost would probably be north of $5500 from Stern? I know of several groups that buy 5-10 machines at a time and the discount is not that significant. You mainly save cost on the shipping.

#56 8 years ago
Quoted from iwantansi:

IMVE wasnt $4800... what makes anyone think they can get SMVE for less?

I got a quote from a highly reputable distributor on Pinside for $4600 shipped.

-1
#57 8 years ago
Quoted from usandthem:

I got a quote from a highly reputable distributor on Pinside for $4600 shipped.

This was an at cost quote.

#58 8 years ago
Quoted from usandthem:

I got a quote from a highly reputable distributor on Pinside for $4600 shipped.

Yeah but think about when the Pinside power buying group gets its discount!! We'll be getting these things for $3750!

So frickin pumped!

#59 8 years ago
Quoted from jgentry:

What price do you think distributors are getting them for? In most cases they are only making a couple of hundred $ of each game.

I promise you they are making more than that per game. That would be less than a 5% mark up in most cases. You can't run a business for very long with that thin of margins.

Quoted from nosro:

I think you are overestimating the margin on these machines.......in a small market like pinball machines, I suspect an older model of pricing applies, which is to take the cost (including capital costs) and add a fixed profit, such as 10%, because it can be so difficult to gauge demand.

Again, I can assure you they are marking these games up more than you think, at least 30%, and probably more like 40%-45%. I used to sell products manufactured in our company plant with 5 competitiors within 50 miles, and we would never sell below a 30% margin. Our target was 40% and we would receive a larger bonus if we were above 40% at the end of the month.

That mark up has to cover the salaries of all of the office staff (any non manual labor position), the building lease payment and any other expense that is not directly related to each machine they produce such as utilities and new equipment. "Cost" typically only counts the cost of parts and labor to produce each machine.

That being said, I don't think you will have much luck with a group buy. Stern probably has a pretty standard discount program for their distributors (buy xx number of machines get xx% discount). If you maximize that discount program and really beat up your distributor you may save an extra 5% to 8% more than a smart individual who shops around a bit on their own. That is a lot of work to put that sale together for such a small discount. Good luck though.

#60 8 years ago
Quoted from Krankypants:

I promise you they are making more than that per game. That would be less than a 5% mark up in most cases. You can't run a business for very long with that thin of margins.

Your wrong, they really do operate at that low of a margin.

#61 8 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

Your wrong, they really do operate at that low of a margin.

I think I can understand this more than the higher margins. Is there a single distributor in he country that is a pinball distributor for their day job? Seems to me that pinball manufacturers are the only people in the pinball business that can have pinball as their day job.

#62 8 years ago

I agree this will not work. The margins from the Dist. are just not very much.
That said, this Power Buy stuff happened all the time on my old TV forum.
It was run by a distributor though and not direct from Samsung. I got my TV for several hundred off retail.
I just do not see this working with Pinball's though.

-1
#63 8 years ago
Quoted from Arcade:

It was run by a distributor though and not direct from Samsung. I got my TV for several hundred off retail.
I just do not see this working with Pinball's though.

I disagree.
I could easily see the power group getting several hundred off of retail.

Edit: Retail = MSRP

#64 8 years ago
Quoted from Krankypants:

I promise you they are making more than that per game. That would be less than a 5% mark up in most cases. You can't run a business for very long with that thin of margins.

Again, I can assure you they are marking these games up more than you think, at least 30%, and probably more like 40%-45%. I used to sell products manufactured in our company plant with 5 competitiors within 50 miles, and we would never sell below a 30% margin. Our target was 40% and we would receive a larger bonus if we were above 40% at the end of the month.
That mark up has to cover the salaries of all of the office staff (any non manual labor position), the building lease payment and any other expense that is not directly related to each machine they produce such as utilities and new equipment. "Cost" typically only counts the cost of parts and labor to produce each machine.
That being said, I don't think you will have much luck with a group buy. Stern probably has a pretty standard discount program for their distributors (buy xx number of machines get xx% discount). If you maximize that discount program and really beat up your distributor you may save an extra 5% to 8% more than a smart individual who shops around a bit on their own. That is a lot of work to put that sale together for such a small discount. Good luck though.

You are wrong. Most of them are doing it as a side business or as something they like to do after retiring from another job. Only the largest distributors do it solely for a living and they are moving a ton of games. They are making a very small margin on the games.

What you have to remember is most of them are not actually stocking the games. They order it and have stern ship it directly to their customer so they don't have games stacked around everywhere. Some of the large ones might but that is not normal. Most only order what is required by stern and try to have those LE's presold. From there they order only what a client requests and they might keep a couple of hot titles on hand.

#65 8 years ago
Quoted from galaxian:

I realize its a complicated bargain but I wonder what volume would make stern reconsider the price hike. If 50-100 people were In I would have to think there is a distributor that would request special pricing and do the deal on a smaller margin. I was all in at $4600 I am out at $6k. I guess we all have our thresholds for entertainment expenses.

You're not understanding. The distribs pay way more then $4800 on this game even if they buy 100 of them. Stern won't lower the price for a group. Then no one would be in for regular price as everyone would join this group. Just take it for what it is. Spider-Man will be a $6500 game.

#66 8 years ago

Food for thought here in Canada.

I went to playdium website to check to see if they had a listing for smve for giggles. they are the only stern distributor in Canada. Before taxes and shipping. They have kiss le listed at $9999 Cnd. Says 6 in stock but said they need to order it.

I can tell you right now before shipping and taxes. My GoTLE was more than $9999cnd

So here is the question. Has stern lowered their price point to playdium or has playdium taken a big loss on their margins or are both stern and playdium sharing the hit ?

#67 8 years ago
Quoted from Krankypants:

I used to sell products manufactured in our company plant

Were you selling pinball games? If not (not to sound like a dick here) its not really relevant. Every industry operates on different margin levels. For some industries 40% is the norm. For some, 5% or less is the norm. It truly does 'depend'.

#68 8 years ago

Heck, why stop at cutting off the distributors at the knees? Let's demand it in kit form at $4000 per unit! Matter of fact, this buyer's group could probably get its own CNC mill and save money on the playfields...

#69 8 years ago
Quoted from thearcadegeek:

I have a solution... I will start a new company and everyone can just send me the $4,800. Once I have enough I'll make the bulk purchase for you.
My Paypal email is [email protected].

Payment sent - hopefully you can have Jpop sign my game while it is in Chicago.

#70 8 years ago

I like trains.

#71 8 years ago

The "free market" economy certainly gives an advantage to the producer over the consumer in this case. We have no idea how much Stern makes per machine and how low they would go before they would simply shut their doors. They're certainly getting a good a idea about how high they can go based on what people are willing to spend for a pinball machine these days. So, if they want to push the consumer around, the only way they can be tested on the flip side is for no one to buy their machines, see how low they're willing to go to sell and see if that amount is still enough to give them incentive to keep building. Never going to happen and all theory, I realize. But these price increases really make me wonder how much Stern is making per machine, simply for my own curiosity. And if they're making a ton and they're really squeezing their distributors by allowing for very little up charge that people are actually willing to pay, then that presents a whole other set of problems for the middleman.

#72 8 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

You're not understanding. The distribs pay way more then $4800 on this game even if they buy 100 of them. Stern won't lower the price for a group. Then no one would be in for regular price as everyone would join this group. Just take it for what it is. Spider-Man will be a $6500 game.

Why not?

My guess is 100 units would get a bulk discount. I'm still thinking the best any buy could pull would be around the $6k Mark.

#73 8 years ago

I'm In somehow I'll make it for that!!!

#74 8 years ago

OK we get it, this isn't going to work at $4,800. How about $5,500? We'll show them!

#75 8 years ago
Quoted from usandthem:

The "free market" economy certainly gives an advantage to the producer over the consumer in this case. We have no idea how much Stern makes per machine and how low they would go before they would simply shut their doors. They're certainly getting a good a idea about how high they can go based on what people are willing to spend for a pinball machine these days. So, if they want to push the consumer around, the only way they can be tested on the flip side is for no one to buy their machines, see how low they're willing to go to sell and see if that amount is still enough to give them incentive to keep building. Never going to happen and all theory, I realize. But these price increases really make me wonder how much Stern is making per machine, simply for my own curiosity. And if they're making a ton and they're really squeezing their distributors by allowing for very little up charge that people are actually willing to pay, then that presents a whole other set of problems for the middleman.

How does the free market give an advantage to Stern? They are not selling food, gas or the only way to heat our homes. Cant we just say "no thanks" and move on.

I also think the consumers squeeze the distributors very hard also though.

#76 8 years ago

If I thought distributors made enough money to sell a $7600 MSRP pin for $4800 with profit, I would quit my job and take up the good life...

#77 8 years ago

First of all, this new SMVE version seems to be more like a Premium than a VE. Retail is $7499, so I have NO CLUE how you derived that $4800 group buy #. Since it resembles a premium, is priced like a premium, how the hell are you going to get it for less than retail on a pro?

It's the same principal of someone who walks into a dealership an expects to get a new $40,000 vehicle for $25,000 and a $300 payment.

In both scenarios, AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!

#78 8 years ago

Maybe... If we all get together... And work for free for Stern and build our own for $4k We go in, wire all that shit, pump out a few hundred, and take them home. If something goes wrong and we call Stern, they just tell us, "well you built the shit, you fix it."

#79 8 years ago

I can't help but picture the guys at Stern sitting back in their chairs and chuckling at all the angst over the pricing and kiddie art. Knowing that within the next couple of weeks the tone will change. People will begin focusing on the things they like about the Vault edition, how it's actually a good value compared to other recent premiums and start lining up to buy.

#80 8 years ago
Quoted from Pinfactory2000:

Were you selling pinball games? If not (not to sound like a dick here) its not really relevant. Every industry operates on different margin levels. For some industries 40% is the norm. For some, 5% or less is the norm. It truly does 'depend'.

Don't worry, you don't sound like a dick. You just sound like you are very uneducated when it comes to manufacturing. If you can find a company similar in size, volume and product complexity to Stern, who wholesale their products for anywhere near 5% over the cost of parts and labor then please let me know who they are.

#81 8 years ago

I'd do they price , but doubt you can pull it off :p

#82 8 years ago

50 machines at $5,500 per unit? An easy 275K.

#83 8 years ago
Quoted from galaxian:

Here is the plan. If a large enough group of us can commit and agree on a reasonable price for Spiderman VE. We can pool our buying power and request a bulk buy discount from Stern. The goal is to get SM VE at $4800.

You're absolutely delusional.

Quoted from galaxian:

This is also be a way to notify stern of what the market is willing to pay.

Notify them!? As if they don't know!? The market IS willing to pay the prices Stern charges...how do you think they moved into a new factory and hired so much talent? Pinside isn't "the market" ...we're a minor percentage of Stern pinball buyers. They'll sell the game for the price they've chosen to sell it for. What kind of narcissist are you to think they should give a shit about what YOU want to pay? Do you pull this move at restaurants? "My word, this Sandwich is $10.99! That's far too expensive! I have a group of 5 here and we'll pay $3.99 for this sandwich and not a penny more!"

#84 8 years ago
Quoted from thearcadegeek:

I have a solution... I will start a new company and everyone can just send me the $4,800. Once I have enough I'll make the bulk purchase for you.
My Paypal email is [email protected].

Zidware Distributing of Streamwood, Illinois is offering a better deal....

#85 8 years ago

Im sure everyone has thought of a completely ridiculous idea, devoid of facts or understanding of what they're about to propose, but very few people will follow through by posting it. That's pretty outstanding on so many levels.

#86 8 years ago
Quoted from inhomearcades:

This was an at cost quote.

Wow, then my quote was under cost. Sweet (I still passed...)

#87 8 years ago
Quoted from Krankypants:

Don't worry, you don't sound like a dick. You just sound like you are very uneducated when it comes to manufacturing. If you can find a company similar in size, volume and product complexity to Stern, who wholesale their products for anywhere near 5% over the cost of parts and labor then please let me know who they are.

Not questioning your knowledge of manufacturing, as I personally have very little of it. That said, I know (as others have also stated) what my distributor's costs are and they are making about $500 on an LE (less on a pro). On top of that, I'm pretty sure I'm not getting the lowest price on machines but I like buying from someone local and they give me 90 day terms.

#88 8 years ago

Have the group all hold off their purchases and do a group purchase of SM at Automated Services at a deep discount a year later.

You are welcome.

#89 8 years ago

There's nothing wrong with hunting for a deal. As a dealer I'm very happy with a $200 profit on the sale of one game, it's often less when I under quote freight. The only way to get a SMVE for $4800 is to buy the entire Stern corporation from Gary and then set your own prices. I'm guessing if your hunting for a Spiderman at $4800 you probably can't complete the corporate takeover necessary to make it happen.

#90 8 years ago

Looks like another cat thread.........Joey

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#91 8 years ago
Quoted from galaxian:

Here is the plan. If a large enough group of us can commit and agree on a reasonable price for Spiderman VE. We can pool our buying power and request a bulk buy discount from Stern. The goal is to get SM VE at $4800. This is also be a way to notify stern of what the market is willing to pay.
Phase 1. Post to the group if you are a serious buyer and interested.
Phase 2. I will contact some suppliers and see who wants to work our bulk deal for us.
Phase 3. Pay Up & Enjoy your NIB stern.
I need to investigate the best way to do shipping at this time. But I will see what group discounts I can get on that as well. Lets limit this to North America (US/Canada). Who is in?

Next thing you will ask for is a pension.

#92 8 years ago
Quoted from Breaking_Dad:

Looks like another cat thread.........Joey

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You stole my cat!!!!

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#93 8 years ago

Get your cat off my MAME.....!!!... ...............Joeyimage_(resized).jpgimage_(resized).jpg

#94 8 years ago
Quoted from Breaking_Dad:

Get your cat off my MAME.....!!!... ...............Joeyimage_(resized).jpg

Where did you buy those Cat Toppers?

#95 8 years ago
Quoted from Breaking_Dad:

Get your cat off my MAME.....!!!... ...............Joeyimage_(resized).jpg

FINE!! right after you get your cat off of my Playboy.

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#96 8 years ago

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He would try to get on top of the pinball machine...

#97 8 years ago

Get your damn cat out my bathroom sink...!!!.........Joey

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#98 8 years ago

Leggo my Eggo - what's up Egg

#99 8 years ago
Quoted from u2sean:

Wow, then my quote was under cost. Sweet (I still passed...)

I assumed that shipping was at least a few hundred.

#100 8 years ago
Quoted from Breaking_Dad:

Get your damn cat out my bathroom sink...!!!.........Joey

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No problem, just let me get your cat out of my underwear first!!!

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