(Topic ID: 217833)

The Shadow vs White Water


By Blitzburgh99

1 year ago



Topic Stats

  • 157 posts
  • 75 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 7 months ago by jonesjb
  • Topic is favorited by 4 Pinsiders

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Linked Games

Topic poll

“The Shadow or White Water”

  • The Shadow 145 votes
    46%
  • White Water 165 votes
    52%
  • Another similar option? Please list 7 votes
    2%

(317 votes)

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There are 157 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 4.
#51 1 year ago

Shadow for players, White Water for collectors.

#52 1 year ago

I own Wh20, I've owned TS.

I'm a casual player and prefer Wh20. It's bolted firmly to my floor.

PS: I agree with others... sell T2 and get both TS & Wh20

#53 1 year ago

I’ve owned both. I regret selling Whitewater, but I don’t miss Shadow at all, even though it’s a nicer-looking pin with better audio, IMHO. Fortunately, I have friends that own both, so I still get to play them once in a while.

#55 1 year ago

I am fortunate enough to own both games. Both are similar that "back in the day", both games were way under appreciated. Shadow more the WW. I bought my Shadow back in the late 90's. It was early in my DMD collection period and I did not know a lot about the DMD era games. Doing research on the list of available games , TS was listed very hi on the European top pinball list so hence I bought it. Fast forward a couple of years and I was thinking about selling but Literally no one wanted it. I always told people it was a real good game but they just shrugged their shoulders and moved on. My wife liked it as well so it stayed. I have had several offers in the last few years but my "Hoarder " tendencies will never let it go.

WW was another game not a lot of people payed attention to and could be picked up cheap but the ramps "Oh how do I replace the ramps?".

As far as one over the other, I like the sounds on shadow better. Both use the upper flipper in various ways with multiple shot options. The sanctum magnet is the coolest use of a magnet in pinball ( but hell on the play field), the light show on both games is excellent for the Era. Flow goes to White water but TS has is Combo call out king. Great secret mode in shadow, great vacation Jackpot in WW. Simpler but really good rules for WW. Both have really functional upper play fields but I would put the edge to WW. The waterfall topper on WW is maybe one of the best toppers ever. The rules on TS in my option are only second to TZ of the era ( but TS has better flow then TZ).

I would take either game over any of the Stern games available for similar money ( I like those Stern games too just not as much). So over all,my pick goes to TS. Extremely close ,but the depth of the rules and best in era class sound being the tie breakers.

#56 1 year ago

They're completely different games and if you remove modern Sterns from the ranking they're both in the Top 15 Pinhead titles of all time. As others have said, sell T2 and get both

#57 1 year ago

Shadow if you are a better player - say upper 40%.
White Water if you are average or below for skill - lower 60%.

The more skilled players will start to feel like there's not really that much to do on WH20 - especially the lower playfield.
Just keep shooting the VUK, and you're pretty safe. The rest of the lower playfield is marginally utilized.

The less skilled players will usually not enjoy Shadow, because it can be brutal and they won't feel like they can accomplish much.

IMO Shadow is a much better game, but more people will probably prefer White Water as Shadow requires a higher skill level to "get to the fun part". This was my experience after owning both for many years.

#58 1 year ago
Quoted from T7:

The rest of the lower playfield is marginally utilized.

I respectfully disagree. White Water does a really excellent job at randomizing shots on the lower playfield to let the player advance rafts. If you focus on the VUK, all you’ll get are boulder awards, which is only 1/4 of what’s needed to get to the vacation jackpot. Then there are the hotfoot targets, and the lost mine kickout to advance towards goldrush.

White Water is one of the few games where every shot has some type of importance or emphasis, at least if you want to make it to Wet Willies, complete wet willies, and get the vacation jackpot.

The Shadow, on the other hand, can be played completely to the final battle without ever touching a single ramp. Sure, vengeance is cool, but it’s completely ignorable. In my opinion, other than the gripes I previously mentioned, The Shadow could be immensely improved by adding a combo requirement to the scarf to advance to the final battle to force the player into making quick ramp shots in succession while using those badass diverters.

#59 1 year ago

Wh2o for me.

#60 1 year ago
Quoted from mbaumle:

I respectfully disagree. White Water does a really excellent job at randomizing shots on the lower playfield to let the player advance rafts. If you focus on the VUK, all you’ll g et are boulder awards, which is only 1/4 of what’s needed to get to the vacation jackpot. Then there are the hotfoot targets, and the lost mine kickout to advance towards goldrush.
White Water is one of the few games where every shot has some type of importance or emphasis, at least if you want to make it to Wet Willies, complete wet willies, and get the vacation jackpot.

If you focus on the VUK, you will also get the primary multiball - and the boulder awards are most of the modes in the game.
Wet Willies and Vacation Jackpot are great/fun goals, but most people are not going to get them very often (if at all).

Quoted from mbaumle:

The Shadow, on the other hand, can be played completely to the final battle without ever touching a single ramp. Sure, vengeance is cool, but it’s completely ignorable. In my opinion, other than the gripes I previously mentioned, The Shadow could be immensely improved by adding a combo requirement to the scarf to advance to the final battle to force the player into making quick ramp shots in succession while using those badass diverters.

The ramps may not be needed to qualify Final Battle - but who cares? The ramps are totally utilizes throughout normal game play: all the modes, Vengeance and Kahn MB. It seems like your main criteria is getting to the wizard mode, and you are ignoring the other 95% of the game play.

IMO balanced scoring and fun various modes are more important than only focusing on the Wizard mode. Since the vast majority of playing a game will not result in seeing/getting the wizard mode (at least in WH20 and Shadow), it's not as important as the rest of the game.

#61 1 year ago
Quoted from T7:

More
If you focus on the VUK, you will also get the primary multiball - and the boulder awards are most of the modes in the game.
Wet Willies and Vacation Jackpot are great/fun goals, but most people are not going to get them very often (if at all).

Gotta disagree there. Bottom PF, besides rafts, gotta use the 3 bank to recharge Kickback and complete rafts. Use that ramp do get your hold bonus for your level 6 raft. Use the other ramp to avoid blowing MBs.
I can see people getting bored of it because it's pretty formulaic, but that doesn't bother me. For me the score is extremely balanced and its aboot doing things perfectly and getting punished for not thinking ahead.

#62 1 year ago
Quoted from mbaumle:

The Shadow, on the other hand, can be played completely to the final battle without ever touching a single ramp.

This is true, but the ramp shots also provide some strategy because the player can control which mode will be active. You can rotate the active mode left or right, depending on the ramp diverter direction. And the left ramp is the skill shot (and big points with Vengeance, as you mentioned). True, not needed for Final Battle, but not nothing, either.

WH20 modes always start in the same order, and only change with random pop bumper hits.

Wh2o does utilize the whole pf with the lit hazards, but is still possible to reach vacation jackpot via secret passage and awards to advance rafts. This allows you to avoid ever making certain shots, (like the right orbit, the toughest shot in the game) to reach vacation jackpot.

I also think the lost mine and the bigfoot loop are unnecessary shots to reach vacation jackpot.

#63 1 year ago

Bottom line is to play them both and then decide which game you personally like more.

#64 1 year ago
Quoted from T7:

IMO balanced scoring and fun various modes are more important than...

Don't know if "balanced" scoring goes along with Shadow loops?

#65 1 year ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Don't know if "balanced" scoring goes along with Shadow loops?

For us peon players sure it does!

#66 1 year ago

Love both, but Shadow is my answer, especially for longevity and for a home pin.

#67 1 year ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Don't know if "balanced" scoring goes along with Shadow loops?

When you factor in risk/reward, which is what makes great pinball, Shadow loops are definitely balanced.

#68 1 year ago
Quoted from Maken:

When you factor in risk/reward, which is what makes great pinball, Shadow loops are definitely balanced.

Glue + dolls are what make a pinball great these days

#69 1 year ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Glue + dolls are what make a pinball great these days

Shadow has Mongol dolls! Haha!

#70 1 year ago
Quoted from Blitzburgh99:

Shadow has Mongol dolls! Haha!

Well I meant aftermarket. Obviously Wh20 haws a real doll with hair and everything

-1
#71 1 year ago
Quoted from fish1975tx:

Bottom line is to play them both and then decide which game you personally like more.

DITTO !!!!!!

#72 1 year ago

Way back when I traded my Shadow for a Whitewater. I never regretted it. I loved the Shadow, but Whitewater is so unique. There still has never been a game quite like it. It's in my all time top 5.

#73 1 year ago

For me TS is probably one of the best players out there period. I have come so freaking close to beating the Final Battle with one more shot and drained that it makes me sick. Plus I think it has one of the best multiball(s) around based on the fact that you can lock one or two of the other balls for double and triple jackpots. The super jackpot is a mfer too... nothing beats hitting all the jackpots during Kahn multiball then going up top on the battlefield to hit the super. Plus the triple and super jackpot call-outs are pretty freaking sweet as I hardly ever get to hear them. I also think this game has some of the best Easter eggs around...

WH2O is a very cool game but it just feels a little cramped as I would never take a late shot from the flippers. It seems like I'm always shooting up the middle so that I can get back up top for a shot at the big ramps. Admittedly, I haven't had that many games on WH2O but it just doesn't flow the way that I like. I'm a sucker for multi flipper games and the ramps on this one are the best around. I love making that long ramp shot...

If you can, I would get both but for me it's TS all day....

1 week later
#74 1 year ago

Good comparison!

1 month later
#75 11 months ago
C269B8F9-DB79-4C77-8058-6365C5A2EDBE (resized).jpeg
#76 11 months ago

The Shadow!
Deeper, deeper and deeper.

H20 is a beautiful machine and very fun game.

BUT, my vote is TS.

1 week later
#77 10 months ago
Quoted from delt31:

I don't really like one over the other - prob go shadow.
I will say I LOVE the vs threads

Added 13 days ago: DEF WH20!

First you said Shadow...then edited to White Water. I am curious as to reasons why you changed your mind?

#78 10 months ago

I now have had the opportunity to own both. HANDS DOWN Wh20. I think Wh20 is one of the best pinballs I've played period. Shadow is still a great value but the theme, the sound, the music, lack of pops, etc is no match for Wh20. The game has so much character, amazing layout, great sound, music - it's something special.

#79 10 months ago

Both great pins, but I think whitewater is more "fun" for people. The theme isn't dark, it's got great humor and hey, it's got Bigfoot!

#80 10 months ago

Good debate here. I’ve owned TS and played a lot of Whitewater on location. Both are absolute classics

The Shadow:

LIKE: the modes are very engaging, good story intergration, fun goals. DMD animations — multiball, escape under water doom, Tim Curry! Call outs. Very challenge & addictive. I enjoy shooting for the Mongol targets, even though it’s super risky

DISLIKE (blasphemy!): upper playfield feels more like a chore, disrupts gameplay. Not a great game for guests/beginners. The extra buttons seem to confuse. I am ok with the art package unlike most, but Auric’s translite is perfection

Whitewater:

LIKE: shots feel great, decent DMD animations, beautiful art package, freakin’ BIGFOOT! Would love to restore one of these some day

DISLIKE: cant think of anything...

#81 10 months ago

White Water is easier than Shadow, so when you first play either, you'll have more fun on White Water with less frustration.

As you improve on both, Shadow kicks its ass on challenge and adrenaline. It just has a steeper learning curve.

After time, White Water will feel more repetitive. Shadow will remain challenging, with more variety to approach high scores.

I've owned and loved both for years. But I play Shadow much more than White Water.

#82 10 months ago

After putting extensive time on both machines, Shadow for me. Shadow gives so much game for the price I cannot fathom how it's cheaper than WW to be honest. If people cant get past the baldwin barrier then they dont deserve the game.

I do think WW is a charming game and it all comes together well, from layout to ramps, music and callouts but the ball always seems to be hidden behind something 90% of the time. Its fun, but if owning one or the other Shadow offers way more longevity and for a way better price.

People often say "its great for guests, or fun for first timers" and while that may be true, I stopped having that be a factor for me as I play on these 99% of the time so I want something that will stay fresh, offer challenge , and sharpen skills.

#83 10 months ago

It's the Shadow for me. Just love the challenge and when you kick it's butt, you know you earned it.
And this is how you eliminate the Baldwin factor. My house is Baldwin free. But actually rolled up, stuffed in a tube, hidden in a closet is right where he should be Excuse the reflections

20180825_132010 (resized).jpg
#84 10 months ago

Def wh20....ya wiener!

#85 10 months ago

Both Shadow and White Water are in my list of top 5 pins.

I’d have to lean toward Shadow…. The thing I like about Shadow is that there are many ways to score points, both on the way to the final battle (wizard mode) and just in normal gameplay (orbits, shadow loops, vengeance, super vengeance, battle for Kahn, Mongols, up to 7x combos, a secret laugh mode), the multiballs (if well played) can bring in 100+million especially if you are able to lock the ball for double/triple jackpots. There are four different multiballs in the Shadow vs 2 in White Water. Multiballs are not difficult to repeat (like with WH20), where you really only get 2 opportunities. 

Scoring in Shadow is more balanced than White Water… With WH20, in order to get a high score, you really need to match up the triple jackpot with the 5X the playfield. – this is a key flaw. Shadow is very well thought out, with many nuances, like additional points for hitting all the targets when defeating Khan, or following a Shadow loop from an orbit. There are many ways to play this table to get lots of points, and one doesn't dominate. Someone achieving final battle, can be beaten by someone dominating the vengeance mode (hitting rings and points, and this person can be beaten by someone playing shadow loops, and this person can be beaten by someone ELSE who kicks ass at final battle (it's a paper scissors rock loop). The game is very balanced and has that "one more game" factor.


In terms gameplay and design...Shadow’s audio is better than White Water, it has a 5 ball multiball if you can get to wizard mode, gold wireforms, ramps that you can control what flipper they arrive to making the game more interactive, a third flipper with 4 shots (including a clever non-obvious ricochet shot which really demonstrates the genus of Brian Eddy as a designer), a breakout style mini playfield (IMO even better than TZ's) and one of the coolest lock tricks around.

Someone on Pinside created a mind map of all of the Shadow gameplay paths. Here it is for reference. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-shadow-club/page/44#post-2766762

I really do love White Water though, it’s classic pinball, with Bigfoot and very accessible in that nailing shots will progress you through the game.

#86 10 months ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

Here it is for reference.

The link isn’t working, but I’m super curious to see it. Do you have the link to the page of the forum post?

#87 10 months ago

I own Shadow. What is this secret laugh and ricochet shot you speak of? Maybe they are obvious and I never noticed them?

#88 10 months ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

Both Shadow and White Water are in my list of top 5 pins.
I’d have to lean toward Shadow…. The thing I like about Shadow is that there are many ways to score points, both on the way to the final battle (wizard mode) and just in normal gameplay (orbits, shadow loops, vengeance, super vengeance, battle for Kahn, Mongols, up to 7x combos, a secret laugh mode), the multiballs (if well played) can bring in 100+million especially if you are able to lock the ball for double/triple jackpots. There are four different multiballs in the Shadow vs 2 in White Water. Multiballs are not difficult to repeat (like with WH20), where you really only get 2 opportunities. 
Scoring in Shadow is more balanced than White Water… With WH20, in order to get a high score, you really need to match up the triple jackpot with the 5X the playfield. – this is a key flaw. Shadow is very well thought out, with many nuances, like additional points for hitting all the targets when defeating Khan, or following a Shadow loop from an orbit. There are many ways to play this table to get lots of points, and one doesn't dominate. Someone achieving final battle, can be beaten by someone dominating the vengeance mode (hitting rings and points, and this person can be beaten by someone playing shadow loops, and this person can be beaten by someone ELSE who kicks ass at final battle (it's a paper scissors rock loop). The game is very balanced and has that "one more game" factor.

In terms gameplay and design...Shadow’s audio is better than White Water, it has a 5 ball multiball if you can get to wizard mode, gold wireforms, ramps that you can control what flipper they arrive to making the game more interactive, a third flipper with 4 shots (including a clever non-obvious ricochet shot which really demonstrates the genus of Brian Eddy as a designer), a breakout style mini playfield (IMO even better than TZ's) and one of the coolest lock tricks around.
Someone on Pinside created a mind map of all of the Shadow gameplay paths. Here it is for reference. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/to...4#post-2766762
I really do love White Water though, it’s classic pinball, with Bigfoot and very accessible in that nailing shots will progress you through the game.

I agree with a lot that you mention here but Shadow having better sounds? That's one of the worst things about it. Super cheesey. I will say though that it's a fun game.

#89 10 months ago
Quoted from mbaumle:

The link isn’t working, but I’m super curious to see it. Do you have the link to the page of the forum post?

Apologies, a typo on my part. It's now updated. Here's the link again: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-shadow-club/page/44#post-2766762

Quoted from delt31:

I agree with a lot that you mention here but Shadow having better sounds? That's one of the worst things about it. Super cheesey. I will say though that it's a fun game.

I suppose it's a matter of opinion. Agree that the call outs may not be stand outs. But when I'm referring it better sound, I'm referring to Shadow's deep orchestral music (and sound quality in the speakers) vs the tinny and crackly audio of WH20. It's personal preference, but I do prefer the soundtrack to Shadow vs the repetitive banjo-ish music of White Water. Although one of the great things about White Water audio is how the intensity ramps up as you progress.

Once again, both are in my top 5. So I love both.

#90 10 months ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

Both Shadow and White Water are in my list of top 5 pins.
I’d have to lean toward Shadow…. The thing I like about Shadow is that there are many ways to score points, both on the way to the final battle (wizard mode) and just in normal gameplay (orbits, shadow loops, vengeance, super vengeance, battle for Kahn, Mongols, up to 7x combos, a secret laugh mode), the multiballs (if well played) can bring in 100+million especially if you are able to lock the ball for double/triple jackpots. There are four different multiballs in the Shadow vs 2 in White Water. Multiballs are not difficult to repeat (like with WH20), where you really only get 2 opportunities. 
Scoring in Shadow is more balanced than White Water… With WH20, in order to get a high score, you really need to match up the triple jackpot with the 5X the playfield. – this is a key flaw. Shadow is very well thought out, with many nuances, like additional points for hitting all the targets when defeating Khan, or following a Shadow loop from an orbit. There are many ways to play this table to get lots of points, and one doesn't dominate. Someone achieving final battle, can be beaten by someone dominating the vengeance mode (hitting rings and points, and this person can be beaten by someone playing shadow loops, and this person can be beaten by someone ELSE who kicks ass at final battle (it's a paper scissors rock loop). The game is very balanced and has that "one more game" factor.

In terms gameplay and design...Shadow’s audio is better than White Water, it has a 5 ball multiball if you can get to wizard mode, gold wireforms, ramps that you can control what flipper they arrive to making the game more interactive, a third flipper with 4 shots (including a clever non-obvious ricochet shot which really demonstrates the genus of Brian Eddy as a designer), a breakout style mini playfield (IMO even better than TZ's) and one of the coolest lock tricks around.
Someone on Pinside created a mind map of all of the Shadow gameplay paths. Here it is for reference. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-shadow-club/page/44#post-2766762
I really do love White Water though, it’s classic pinball, with Bigfoot and very accessible in that nailing shots will progress you through the game.

Thank you for posting this. I never realized how much goes on in the Shadow.

#91 10 months ago
Quoted from Squeakman:

I own Shadow. What is this secret laugh and ricochet shot you speak of? Maybe they are obvious and I never noticed them?

So the secret laugh mode is when you pull the trigger when the ball lands into each of the 3 saucers at certain times, it will activate as a secret mode instead of starting the lit mode.

The ricochet shot is a purposeful shot to the sling beneath the inner loop from the flipper, it is angled as such to bounce the ball from the upper flipper to the sling, directly to the Sanctum wall.

And if you own a Shadow, do yourself a favor and find the luppin rule adjustments on Pinside. It legitimately changes the game.

#92 10 months ago
Quoted from jonesjb:

So the secret laugh mode is when you pull the trigger when the ball lands into each of the 3 saucers at certain times, it will activate as a secret mode instead of starting the lit mode.
The ricochet shot is a purposeful shot to the sling beneath the inner loop from the flipper, it is angled as such to bounce the ball from the upper flipper to the sling, directly to the Sanctum wall.
And if you own a Shadow, do yourself a favor and find the luppin rule adjustments on Pinside. It legitimately changes the game.

Other Shadow tricks:

During Duel of Wills video mode, pull the launch trigger to clear the Phurbas for a few seconds to make scoring the EB easier.

Also, during MB, if you can catch a ball half way up a ramp and then quickly turn a diverter, you can continue MB with a ball safely out of play.

#93 10 months ago
Quoted from RTS:

Other Shadow tricks:
Also, during MB, if you can catch a ball half way up a ramp and then quickly turn a diverter, you can continue MB with a ball safely out of play.

Do you mean trapping the ball with the diverter and pinning it against the ramp?

#94 10 months ago
Quoted from RTS:

Other Shadow tricks:
Also, during MB, if you can catch a ball half way up a ramp and then quickly turn a diverter, you can continue MB with a ball safely out of play.

Wow.

#95 10 months ago
Quoted from Scoot:

Do you mean trapping the ball with the diverter and pinning it against the ramp?

Yes. But to be fair, this move was explained to me by a top player. I have yet to pull it off.

#96 10 months ago

As OP to this thread, and past owner of The Shadow (had to sell for financial reason)...I am now a current owner of White Water for about 3 weeks.

The Shadow: what other posted above are all very accurate. Once Luppin Rules are put in place, the game becomes more accessible and enjoyable...but not easier. I hope to one again someday.

White Water: my first impression was that the game was fairly easy. I was staying away from the entire right side of the playfield and hammering away No Way Out, up to third flipper, and playing White Water multiball a lot.

Then I wanted to get to Vacation Jackpot, and the game started kicking my tail. Just getting to Wet Willie’s is tough enough. Getting the rest seems daunting at this point. I’m just looking forward to maybe completing Wet Willie someday.

White Water forces you to hit shots all over the playfield which is great. The humor is fantastic. The music does get repetitive if one isn’t advancing rafts, however I don’t see the music as negative like others do. Like many other 90s Bally Williams games, once it’s “wound up” it gets really exciting.

Only time will tell how long White Water will hold my interest. Early returns are very favorable. It compliments my other games (WW, TZ, WCS94, T2) very well. Best answers of this thread are “get both”.

#97 10 months ago

Own WH2O. Love playing both. Shadow is definetly the harder game.

Still regret passing on a shadow for 800 right around when I entered the hobby. It was missing the entire wall assembly, which was impossible to find.

#98 10 months ago

To me, it is a no contest. Shadow is eons ahead of white water.

White water is great for beginners and as a location machine. I play it when I get the chance, but I would never buy it. The game feels claustrophobic and becomes redundant too quickly for a home machine. "You are boring me!"

The Shadow is a strange one. It isn’t popular because you need to play it many times to learn its strange geometry, mechanics and rules. You have to be a good player or you’ll hate it. Once you get it, the game opens up and becomes one of the best ever made. It also poses unique solutions to problems. For example, my machine hates allowing post transfers, so I often use the switchable ramps to pass the ball. I also have to use a good deal of nudging, and my tilts are sensitive.

"You still think you can control the game with brute force?"

1 month later
#99 9 months ago

Whitewater, best ramps in pinball, and have to love the yeti just makes me smile. I also tend to like light hearted, up beat games with a bit of humor, it’s a no. Contest for me

#100 9 months ago

TS! Great rule set and coding. There are multiple ways of playing this game.
Great layout and one of the best upper playfields in pinball.

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