(Topic ID: 277316)

The Shadow: Reset on Flipper Fire; No Left Flipper

By vindic8r

3 years ago


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  • 21 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 3 years ago by DumbAss
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#1 3 years ago

I'm troubleshooting an issue with a The Shadow I acquired a while back and have been working on. When firing either or both of the flippers, either via the buttons or in test mode, the game instantly resets. While this falls into the category of a WPC reset and is probably watchdog circuit-related, I'm not convinced that it's due to the typical culprits affecting the 5v or 12v supply. This is very much something that happens only when the flippers fire, and not seemingly randomly or otherwise. The game has sat on for about a half hour or more at a time in test and attract mode while I've been servicing it and I've yet to see a reset in either mode, unless/until the flippers fire.

I should also note that the flipper EOS switches (all of them) throw errors on boot. They are normally open in test and register properly when manually closed.

Things I've done so far (all measurements coming from my true RMS Fluke 8060a), using the Pinwiki WPC reset troubleshooting list (https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Game_resets) as a guide:
- Reseated all connectors, including J101, J114 and J210, many times
- Verified that line voltage is 122VAC and that matches what I'm getting with the game on and off at the internal supply
- Verified driver board (and all boards) are screwed in fully and grounded
- Flowed more solder to all of the flipper coil lugs, ensuring the diode leads are fully in contact
- Unplugged/plugged back in the 15-pin Molex at the transformer that carries 9VAC
- Checked pins at J101 and I don't see significant tarnish
- Measured VDC at TP2 and again at pin 32 of the game ROM and here I am seeing a bit of a drop - 4.925v at TP2 and 4.686v at pin32 of the ROM.

^-- Is this a clue of the root cause? Are these voltages too low on both sides? --^

- Tested BR2 on the Driver Board and while load using the method here (http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/wpc/index2.htm#reset) and got 9.6v. I also tested under load using this method (https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Using_a_Multimeter_to_Test_the_Bridge_Rectifier_and_Capacitors) and got 9.8-10.02v. Checking the capacitor I measured 183mVAC, which also seems to be a bit low but in range.
- Tested BR1 under load on the Fliptronics II board using method from flipperwinkel and got 67.5v-68.1v
- Went to test C2 on the Fliptronics board and HOLD UP - it's not there! It looks like it never was?! But I'm assuming this is factory normal on this game, from the pics I've seen.

Here are my thoughts on how I might troubleshoot further:
- Remove the flipper assemblies (which I just rebuilt and replaced ) and check all of the flipper diodes one by one by taking them momentarily out of circuit. They appear to be visibly wired properly, but I stupidly didn't test them when I had the assemblies out.

^--See attached photos. I verified wiring at the lugs matches the schematics and I believe the EOS switches can be wired either way and work fine. But please feel free to fact check me here.

- Check for a short on the flipper circuits. What's the best way to do this?
- Check thermistor: I don't think this would be the cause given how these resets are isolated only to the flippers engaging. But could it be?

Any additional suggestions or thoughts would be much appreciated. I've spent a number hours already on this and would love some guidance before I invest more time here. I'd like to be 100% sure this is a Power Driver or Fliptronics board issue and not something else before I engage a trusted professional here.

Many thanks in advance!

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#3 3 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Thank you for posting pictures of your setup. A lot of people ask for help and describe their situation. You often see claims of "it's wired correctly". Then you either see people trying to help and going down a rabbit hole or the issue falls down the forum and quietly disappears.

No problem at all. I've seen that pattern before too and figured I'd save us all the headache.

Quoted from DumbAss:

I'm fairly sure you have your flipper wires for +50V power and holding reversed.

I totally did. Reversing the outer lug wiring to properly match the schematics did the trick. Thanks!

Quoted from DumbAss:

Also ... you should probably place the solenoid lugs away from the stop (turn the solenoid around). The stop is a slightly higher vibration environment than the other end.

Great callout. I was working on a Big Guns flipper issue recently and I think that I had burned into my brain the old mounting standard for coils. I didn't realize it changed in the 90's. I have a feeling this is why I flipped the wiring.

Now for a new issue. The hits just keep coming! The right flippers work great and no more EOS switch errors on boot. However, the left flipper won't fire at all, via the button nor via test mode. I'm going to start tracing the power from the driver board and see if I can figure out where things go sideways.

@dumbass, if you or anyone has suggestions on how to best troubleshoot this, I'm all ears.

#6 3 years ago

Wow! Thank you both. This kind of support is exactly why I love the Pinside community. This reminded me to send in a donation to keep this great community rolling for years to come. Thanks again DumbAss and @ltg!

As for the troubleshooting, here's where we are:

Quoted from LTG:

I'd go into Tests - Switch Edge, and try the left flipper button. Make sure that works then chase power ( fuse ? )

The switch works fine in edge test.

Quoted from DumbAss:

Check you have +50V at the power supply wire at the solenoid

Nope. 0VDC, whether firing or not.

Quoted from DumbAss:

Check F904 on the fliptronic board. This is the DC power fuse.

F904 was blackened and failed testing when removed. I replaced it with a new 3A 250V SB. F112 and F902 look and tested fine.

Quoted from DumbAss:

If that fuse is good then you should have +50V at the solenoid. Next test the drive transistors.

Still no voltage when I powered it up, after replacing the bad fuse. Transistors Q3, Q9 and Q10 all failed the Pinwiki-prescribed test (https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Testing_a_Transistor.2C_Silicon_Controlled_Rectifier_.28SCR.29_or_Field_Effect_Transistor_.28FET.29). They gave clear readings of 0v compared to the .4-.6v ratings I was getting on the rest of the transistors.

I've replaced a couple of transistors and similar non-surface mounted components on other boards successfully, previously. While I don't have a top of the line Hakko desoldering gun, I do have a desoldering vacuum-pump and a vintage Weller WTCPT soldering station that I am quite comfortable with (it even has a brand new tip I just installed). How sensitive are the traces and through holes on the Fliptronics board around the transistors? Am I highly likely to cause damage if I don't have a nicer desoldering station?

Additionally, is it possible there might be damage further back from these transistors on the Fliptronics or Power Driver boards? I'm assuming no since the R flippers work. But please keep me honest here.

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

I am going to assume that 0V means that it is shorted versus open. In this case the transistor should lock on the solenoid at initial application of power and then subsequently blow the fuse. Did this happen?

Nope. This is not what I'm seeing. The solenoid never fires at all. Since I've replaced the fuse, I'm still not seeing any power at the solenoid.

Quoted from DumbAss:

You should verify that there is AC coming into the fliptronic board and that there is DC coming out of the fliptronic board.

So I'm getting about 32 VAC coming in at J901, on each pin. I expected 50 VAC or more. Is this indicative of an issue?

J907 is giving readings of about 61-62VDC on all pins except 5-6, which are reading 0.56 VDC. Ah-ha! I think? But shouldn't this have affected both the lower left and lower right flippers?

Just for grins, I also tested continuity along Red-Blue from the solenoid supply lug to J907 (pins 4-5) and it tested fine. So we shouldn't have a wiring issue there.

Given the above, what should I test next?

#10 3 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Measure AC between J901-1 or J901-2 and J901-4 or J901-5 (see the second picture). It should match AC between J104-1 and J104-2 as well as between J102-8 or J102-9 and J102-5 or J102-6.

I'm getting a fluxing but consistent ~55.4VAC across every one of these pairs.

Quoted from DumbAss:

Pull all the fuses and test the DC voltage for each of the four groups one by one (by inserting the appropriate fuse).

Across each pair, when tested with fuses isolated, I'm getting ~62.4-63VDC. Again, there's some flux but the range is consistent. As a side note, I decided to test each fuse when I pulled it and did find that one of them was toast. I replaced it and reseated the rest, then fired up the game hoping for a miracle. Sadly, that left flipper remains unresponsive. And not surprisingly, I'm still measuring 0VDC at the supply side lug on the solenoid.

Where should we go from here?

#11 3 years ago

Bumpity bump. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

I'm at a loss here for where to go next.

#13 3 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

The rectified DC voltage should be in the +70VDC to +75VDC range so +62VDC seems a little low...Check continuity and check your connector.

Right. So I confirmed continuity to all 3 of the wires going to the solenoid from J902 and J907.
For grins, I tested voltage again at J907. 1-2, 6-7 read ~67VDC. But now I'm getting 0VDC at 4-5 (Red-Blue). I confirmed this a 2nd time. I checked F904 out of circuit and its good. It looks we might have found something here.

Quoted from DumbAss:

It might be time to post some more pictures of the current wiring state for confirmation.

I'm assuming we're going to be chasing the lack of voltage at 4-5 now, but here are some photos of the wiring at the L flipper solenoid now, just so we can fully rule that out.

Quoted from DumbAss:

Note that there is no smoothing capacitor installed (at least there should not be) as Williams did not populate the capacitor on the Fliptronic-II in later games that used it. A cost cutting measure.

I did notice this and it threw me off originally, but since it looked like this was factory original, I didn't sweat it. Good to know, though.

IMG_20200923_232548 (resized).jpgIMG_20200923_232548 (resized).jpgIMG_20200923_232603 (resized).jpgIMG_20200923_232603 (resized).jpg
#15 3 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

For J907-4,5 you need to verify fuse F902 (not F904).
- Please verify that fuse is not blown. If blown then replace it and check the DC voltage again.

Wow, thanks for making this easy for us, Williams. Sheesh. Anyway, I removed all fuses including F902, verified they were all good and replaced F902 alone. I'm still getting 0VDC at J907-4,5. Interestingly, the fuse blew sometime while I was taking voltage measures. Not sure if I accidentally caused a short while I was probing or if this is just related to our issue. But I figured I'd call it out, just the same.

Quoted from DumbAss:

- If there is no DC voltage present at J907-4,5 and you checked the fuse is not blown then pull the Fliptronic-II board and post pictures of the board.

Here's are shots of the front and back. I don't see any evidence of prior board work, nor do I see any cold solder joints. But my eyes certainly could be missing something.

IMG_20200924_230040 (resized).jpgIMG_20200924_230040 (resized).jpgIMG_20200924_230052 (resized).jpgIMG_20200924_230052 (resized).jpg

#17 3 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

- Check continuity between the top conductor of the F902 fuse holder and J907-4,5. This verifies the fuse holder to the header pins.
- Check continuity between any of the lower conductors of any fuse holder other than F902 and J907-4,5. This completely verifies the fuse and fuse holder.
- Check continuity between the RED-GRN wire in the connector of J907 and the supply lug (RED-GRN wire) of the flipper solenoid. This verifies the playfield wiring (power distribution)...
- Check continuity between any of the lower conductors of any fuse holder other than F902 and the supply lug of the flipper solenoid.

All continuity on these checks fine. I should note that you said RED-GRN but I'm pretty sure you meant RED-BLU, which is for our problem flipper. But I went ahead and checked continuity on RED-GRN too, just to be thorough. It was good too.

Quoted from DumbAss:

- Measure DC voltage at any of the lower conductors of any fuse holder.
- Measure DC voltage at the top conductor of the F902.
- Measure DC voltage at J907-4,5.
- Measure DC voltage at the supply lug of the flipper solenoid.
You should have +75VDC at all the above points. If not then stop. Something doesn't add up.

I'm definitely getting lower than nominal voltage at all of these points: 65.4-66.8VDC. It goes up just a bit the longer I leave it on, hence the range.

Quoted from DumbAss:

- Keep your eyes on F902. Reach down and power on the machine. Watch the fuse. See if it glows and then blows.

Yep. It lit up like a Christmas tree the moment I turned it on. Time to buy a few more 3A MDLs. I only have 4 left now, just enough for the 4 on the Fliptronics board - no more spares.

What's next?

#19 3 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

- Test the Q3 (TIP36C = PNP) transistor. This is the high current stroke transistor.
- Test the Q10 (TIP102 = NPN) transistor. This is the transistor controlling the TIP36C.
- Test the Q9 (TIP102 = NPN) transistor. This is the low current hold transistor.

Tested all 3 using the Pinwiki-prescribed testing procedures. I had done this a while back and all 3 tested bad, but it can't hurt to try it again.
Q3 does not short on its center leg, so it tested bad.
Q9's left leg tests out of spec, so it is bad.
Q10 tests fine, but I wonder if it might be bad too. If I'm replacing Q9, I'm thinking I'll just replace Q10 while I'm at it unless you think otherwise.

Quoted from DumbAss:

- Measure resistance between the supply lug (RED-BLU wire) and the stroke lug (YEL-BLU wire). It should measure ~3.9 Ohm.
- Measure resistance between the supply lug (RED-BLU wire) and the hold lug (ORG-BLU wire). It should measure ~120 Ohm (from memory - it should be in the 100-150 Ohm range).

I got 0.14ohm on both of these. Definitely no bueno. I tested the other flipper coils just to make sure it wasn't user error with my DMM and they tested fine.

Quoted from DumbAss:

If the resistances measure incorrectly then I would cut one of each of the diode legs off the solenoid and measure the diodes (now out of circuit). Hopefully one (or both) will measure shorted.

Yep. Both are shorted.

I'm placing an order with PL here tonight for the diodes and transistors. I need a lamp bulb for one of the rings while I'm at it.

I'll report back after doing the requisite board and coil assembly work. Probably will be a few days.

1 week later
#20 3 years ago

After replacing Q3, Q9 and Q10 on the Fliptronics board, as well as the 1N4004 diodes on the flipper coil, I'm happy to report that the left flipper is working again! Huzzah!

HUGE thanks to DumbAss for his diligence and patience, without which, I'm sure I would still be spinning on this one.

I hope that this thread lives on to serve the community as well as it did me.

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