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(Topic ID: 277316)

The Shadow: Reset on Flipper Fire; No Left Flipper


By vindic8r

11 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 14 posts
  • 3 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 14 hours ago by DumbAss
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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04_indianapolis500_manual_CORRECT.jpg
01_fliptronic-front.jpg
02-fliptronic_rear.jpg
03_shadow_manual_INCORRECT.jpg
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01_flipper_power_wiring.jpg
02_flipper_DC_distribution.jpg
01_flipper_AC_source.jpg
04_flipper_control.jpg
01_flipper_circuit.jpg
02_flipper_AC_input.jpg
03_flipper_transformer_secondary.jpg
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#1 11 days ago

I'm troubleshooting an issue with a The Shadow I acquired a while back and have been working on. When firing either or both of the flippers, either via the buttons or in test mode, the game instantly resets. While this falls into the category of a WPC reset and is probably watchdog circuit-related, I'm not convinced that it's due to the typical culprits affecting the 5v or 12v supply. This is very much something that happens only when the flippers fire, and not seemingly randomly or otherwise. The game has sat on for about a half hour or more at a time in test and attract mode while I've been servicing it and I've yet to see a reset in either mode, unless/until the flippers fire.

I should also note that the flipper EOS switches (all of them) throw errors on boot. They are normally open in test and register properly when manually closed.

Things I've done so far (all measurements coming from my true RMS Fluke 8060a), using the Pinwiki WPC reset troubleshooting list (https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Game_resets) as a guide:
- Reseated all connectors, including J101, J114 and J210, many times
- Verified that line voltage is 122VAC and that matches what I'm getting with the game on and off at the internal supply
- Verified driver board (and all boards) are screwed in fully and grounded
- Flowed more solder to all of the flipper coil lugs, ensuring the diode leads are fully in contact
- Unplugged/plugged back in the 15-pin Molex at the transformer that carries 9VAC
- Checked pins at J101 and I don't see significant tarnish
- Measured VDC at TP2 and again at pin 32 of the game ROM and here I am seeing a bit of a drop - 4.925v at TP2 and 4.686v at pin32 of the ROM.

^-- Is this a clue of the root cause? Are these voltages too low on both sides? --^

- Tested BR2 on the Driver Board and while load using the method here (http://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/wpc/index2.htm#reset) and got 9.6v. I also tested under load using this method (https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Using_a_Multimeter_to_Test_the_Bridge_Rectifier_and_Capacitors) and got 9.8-10.02v. Checking the capacitor I measured 183mVAC, which also seems to be a bit low but in range.
- Tested BR1 under load on the Fliptronics II board using method from flipperwinkel and got 67.5v-68.1v
- Went to test C2 on the Fliptronics board and HOLD UP - it's not there! It looks like it never was?! But I'm assuming this is factory normal on this game, from the pics I've seen.

Here are my thoughts on how I might troubleshoot further:
- Remove the flipper assemblies (which I just rebuilt and replaced ) and check all of the flipper diodes one by one by taking them momentarily out of circuit. They appear to be visibly wired properly, but I stupidly didn't test them when I had the assemblies out.

^--See attached photos. I verified wiring at the lugs matches the schematics and I believe the EOS switches can be wired either way and work fine. But please feel free to fact check me here.

- Check for a short on the flipper circuits. What's the best way to do this?
- Check thermistor: I don't think this would be the cause given how these resets are isolated only to the flippers engaging. But could it be?

Any additional suggestions or thoughts would be much appreciated. I've spent a number hours already on this and would love some guidance before I invest more time here. I'd like to be 100% sure this is a Power Driver or Fliptronics board issue and not something else before I engage a trusted professional here.

Many thanks in advance!

20200913_123036 (resized).jpg20200913_123102 (resized).jpg20200913_123121 (resized).jpg

#2 11 days ago

Thank you for posting pictures of your setup. A lot of people ask for help and describe their situation. You often see claims of "it's wired correctly". Then you either see people trying to help and going down a rabbit hole or the issue falls down the forum and quietly disappears.

I'm fairly sure you have your flipper wires for +50V power and holding reversed. When looking at the flipper solenoids as viewed in your pictures the banded end of the diodes should be to the right. The right lug should have two magnet wires coming off it. The thicker magnet wire terminates at the center lug and the thinner magnet wire terminates at the left lug.

You have connected the +50V to the left lug when it should be connected to the right lug and the holding wire to the right lug when it should be connected to the left lug. Check your wiring and check it with the wiring schematic / diagram included below.

Also ... you should probably place the solenoid lugs away from the stop (turn the solenoid around). The stop is a slightly higher vibration environment than the other end.

flipper_wiring.jpg
#3 9 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Thank you for posting pictures of your setup. A lot of people ask for help and describe their situation. You often see claims of "it's wired correctly". Then you either see people trying to help and going down a rabbit hole or the issue falls down the forum and quietly disappears.

No problem at all. I've seen that pattern before too and figured I'd save us all the headache.

Quoted from DumbAss:

I'm fairly sure you have your flipper wires for +50V power and holding reversed.

I totally did. Reversing the outer lug wiring to properly match the schematics did the trick. Thanks!

Quoted from DumbAss:

Also ... you should probably place the solenoid lugs away from the stop (turn the solenoid around). The stop is a slightly higher vibration environment than the other end.

Great callout. I was working on a Big Guns flipper issue recently and I think that I had burned into my brain the old mounting standard for coils. I didn't realize it changed in the 90's. I have a feeling this is why I flipped the wiring.

Now for a new issue. The hits just keep coming! The right flippers work great and no more EOS switch errors on boot. However, the left flipper won't fire at all, via the button nor via test mode. I'm going to start tracing the power from the driver board and see if I can figure out where things go sideways.

dumbass, if you or anyone has suggestions on how to best troubleshoot this, I'm all ears.

#4 9 days ago
Quoted from vindic8r:

has suggestions on how to best troubleshoot this,

I'd go into Tests - Switch Edge, and try the left flipper button. Make sure that works then chase power ( fuse ? )

LTG : )

#5 9 days ago
Quoted from vindic8r:

However, the left flipper won't fire at all, via the button nor via test mode.

Not firing in test mode is almost certainly electrical. It is typically the power supply or the drive transistor.

Make sure the coin door is closed (I'm sure it is but it never hurts as a reminder). This machine should have a high voltage interlock switch.

Everything is highlighted and color coded for your convenience.

RED = DC power fuse.
GREEN = AC power fuse.
BLUE = drive transistors.

Check you have +50V at the power supply wire at the solenoid (the right lug - the banded end of the diode). If you don't have +50V then the most likely cause is a blown fuse. Check F904 on the fliptronic board. This is the DC power fuse.

Always pull the fuse from the fuse holder to test it. Do NOT test the fuse in circuit.

01_flipper_circuit.jpg

If that fuse is good then you need to check the AC power fuse. That is F112 on the power board.

02_flipper_AC_input.jpg
03_flipper_transformer_secondary.jpg

If that fuse is good then you should have +50V at the solenoid. Next test the drive transistors.

04_flipper_control.jpg

#6 8 days ago

Wow! Thank you both. This kind of support is exactly why I love the Pinside community. This reminded me to send in a donation to keep this great community rolling for years to come. Thanks again dumbass and ltg!

As for the troubleshooting, here's where we are:

Quoted from LTG:

I'd go into Tests - Switch Edge, and try the left flipper button. Make sure that works then chase power ( fuse ? )

The switch works fine in edge test.

Quoted from DumbAss:

Check you have +50V at the power supply wire at the solenoid

Nope. 0VDC, whether firing or not.

Quoted from DumbAss:

Check F904 on the fliptronic board. This is the DC power fuse.

F904 was blackened and failed testing when removed. I replaced it with a new 3A 250V SB. F112 and F902 look and tested fine.

Quoted from DumbAss:

If that fuse is good then you should have +50V at the solenoid. Next test the drive transistors.

Still no voltage when I powered it up, after replacing the bad fuse. Transistors Q3, Q9 and Q10 all failed the Pinwiki-prescribed test (https://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=General#Testing_a_Transistor.2C_Silicon_Controlled_Rectifier_.28SCR.29_or_Field_Effect_Transistor_.28FET.29). They gave clear readings of 0v compared to the .4-.6v ratings I was getting on the rest of the transistors.

I've replaced a couple of transistors and similar non-surface mounted components on other boards successfully, previously. While I don't have a top of the line Hakko desoldering gun, I do have a desoldering vacuum-pump and a vintage Weller WTCPT soldering station that I am quite comfortable with (it even has a brand new tip I just installed). How sensitive are the traces and through holes on the Fliptronics board around the transistors? Am I highly likely to cause damage if I don't have a nicer desoldering station?

Additionally, is it possible there might be damage further back from these transistors on the Fliptronics or Power Driver boards? I'm assuming no since the R flippers work. But please keep me honest here.

#7 8 days ago
Quoted from vindic8r:

Still no voltage when I powered it up, after replacing the bad fuse. They gave clear readings of 0v compared to the .4-.6v ratings I was getting on the rest of the transistors.

I am going to assume that 0V means that it is shorted versus open. In this case the transistor should lock on the solenoid at initial application of power and then subsequently blow the fuse. Did this happen? Once the fuse blows you will have no power at the solenoid. You can disconnect J902 to prevent the transistor from locking on the solenoid to measure power and verify that there is not some other problem.

If the fuse is good but there is still 0V at the solenoid then there's another problem. You should verify that there is AC coming into the fliptronic board and that there is DC coming out of the fliptronic board. In essence you are testing the fuses and bridge rectifier. It's probably just as easy to test the bridge rectifier on the board. No power means that nothing will work regardless of the state of the transistors.

Quoted from vindic8r:

How sensitive are the traces and through holes on the Fliptronics board around the transistors? Am I highly likely to cause damage if I don't have a nicer desoldering station?

A plunger tool will work for your situation. Just don't overheat the pad and apply prolonged heat to the pad if possible. The traces are big but I have a fliptronic board where a trace at the TIP102 has been completely pulled from the board so that a jumper wire is necessary. You can also completely obliterate a pad. I've seen that on power boards where someone decided to torch the pads of the transistor.

I loaned out my desoldering gun to a friend and found I needed to do some minor work. I worked around the issue of not having ideal tools. Cut the defective component out as close as possible to the body (maximum amount of leg lead to hold onto). Heat the pad and pull the leg. You can then either plunger vacuum the solder or heat it up sufficiently and then shake the board (only once). The solder should come out of the hole and onto the bench (or floor). Essentially ... Newton's first law. The solder wants to stay in place. When you quickly accelerate the board the solder stays where it is while the pad and hole move away. The solder falls out cleanly from the hole and forms a nice splat on the surface it hits or a sphere if it solidifies before hitting the surface. Or the opposite ... you accelerate the board and the solder accelerates with it and then quickly stop the board moving and the solder wants to keep moving and falls out.

Quoted from vindic8r:

Additionally, is it possible there might be damage further back from these transistors on the Fliptronics or Power Driver boards? I'm assuming no since the R flippers work. But please keep me honest here.

It might but let's work on the more obvious things first.

1) You need power to the solenoid. First AC and then DC through a fuse and wire to the solenoid.
2) You need a path to ground from the solenoid through a wire and then transistor (TIP102 or TIP36C).
3) You need control of that path to ground from the CPU (digital logic and pre-drive transistor 2N4403).

#8 6 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

I am going to assume that 0V means that it is shorted versus open. In this case the transistor should lock on the solenoid at initial application of power and then subsequently blow the fuse. Did this happen?

Nope. This is not what I'm seeing. The solenoid never fires at all. Since I've replaced the fuse, I'm still not seeing any power at the solenoid.

Quoted from DumbAss:

You should verify that there is AC coming into the fliptronic board and that there is DC coming out of the fliptronic board.

So I'm getting about 32 VAC coming in at J901, on each pin. I expected 50 VAC or more. Is this indicative of an issue?

J907 is giving readings of about 61-62VDC on all pins except 5-6, which are reading 0.56 VDC. Ah-ha! I think? But shouldn't this have affected both the lower left and lower right flippers?

Just for grins, I also tested continuity along Red-Blue from the solenoid supply lug to J907 (pins 4-5) and it tested fine. So we shouldn't have a wiring issue there.

Given the above, what should I test next?

#9 6 days ago
Quoted from vindic8r:

So I'm getting about 32 VAC coming in at J901, on each pin. I expected 50 VAC or more. Is this indicative of an issue?

Let's start here first. You should be getting 50VAC from the transformer secondary. Check AC across the pins (not to ground). Measure AC between J901-1 or J901-2 and J901-4 or J901-5 (see the second picture). It should match AC between J104-1 and J104-2 as well as between J102-8 or J102-9 and J102-5 or J102-6 (see first picture).

01_flipper_AC_source.jpg

Quoted from vindic8r:

J907 is giving readings of about 61-62VDC on all pins except 5-6, which are reading 0.56 VDC. Ah-ha! I think? But shouldn't this have affected both the lower left and lower right flippers?

The problem with the DC voltage supply is that everything is connected to each other through the fuses at F901-F904. To accurately measure the DC voltage it is best to isolate the individual flipper sources. Pull all the fuses and test the DC voltage for each of the four groups one by one (by inserting the appropriate fuse).

02_flipper_DC_distribution.jpg

#10 4 days ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Measure AC between J901-1 or J901-2 and J901-4 or J901-5 (see the second picture). It should match AC between J104-1 and J104-2 as well as between J102-8 or J102-9 and J102-5 or J102-6.

I'm getting a fluxing but consistent ~55.4VAC across every one of these pairs.

Quoted from DumbAss:

Pull all the fuses and test the DC voltage for each of the four groups one by one (by inserting the appropriate fuse).

Across each pair, when tested with fuses isolated, I'm getting ~62.4-63VDC. Again, there's some flux but the range is consistent. As a side note, I decided to test each fuse when I pulled it and did find that one of them was toast. I replaced it and reseated the rest, then fired up the game hoping for a miracle. Sadly, that left flipper remains unresponsive. And not surprisingly, I'm still measuring 0VDC at the supply side lug on the solenoid.

Where should we go from here?

#11 1 day ago

Bumpity bump. Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

I'm at a loss here for where to go next.

#12 1 day ago

Sorry for the lack of response. Thank you for your patience.

I have a few things going on (my own projects and newly acquired work) that generally takes precedence over anything posted on the public forum. I sometimes tend to get a little scatter brain (suffer from "senior moments") when too many things overwhelm me at once. Also ... posting on the public forum takes time for me to read the problem, digest the problem, think about the problem, figure out potential causes or diagnostic steps for the problem, prepare the response, read the response and finally re-read the response (even then I still make mistakes) before posting. I typically spend a minimum of 15 minutes per reply but sometimes it's been up to 30 minutes. I try not to post quick, nonsensical replies (that someone has to come along and correct) or post an opinion without any supporting evidence (such as from manuals or schematics). Private mail often also takes precedence when the person is blocked waiting for a response.

If you are getting DC voltage on the pins at J907 but not getting any voltage at the power supply lug of the solenoid then you have to have a break in the wiring or a poor contact at the the connector of J907. I don't think there are any other causes that I can think of. The rectified DC voltage should be in the +70VDC to +75VDC range so +62VDC seems a little low. Note that there is no smoothing capacitor installed (at least there should not be) as Williams did not populate the capacitor on the Fliptronic-II in later games that used it. A cost cutting measure.

Check continuity and check your connector. It might be time to post some more pictures of the current wiring state for confirmation.

01_flipper_power_wiring.jpg
#13 17 hours ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

The rectified DC voltage should be in the +70VDC to +75VDC range so +62VDC seems a little low...Check continuity and check your connector.

Right. So I confirmed continuity to all 3 of the wires going to the solenoid from J902 and J907.
For grins, I tested voltage again at J907. 1-2, 6-7 read ~67VDC. But now I'm getting 0VDC at 4-5 (Red-Blue). I confirmed this a 2nd time. I checked F904 out of circuit and its good. It looks we might have found something here.

Quoted from DumbAss:

It might be time to post some more pictures of the current wiring state for confirmation.

I'm assuming we're going to be chasing the lack of voltage at 4-5 now, but here are some photos of the wiring at the L flipper solenoid now, just so we can fully rule that out.

Quoted from DumbAss:

Note that there is no smoothing capacitor installed (at least there should not be) as Williams did not populate the capacitor on the Fliptronic-II in later games that used it. A cost cutting measure.

I did notice this and it threw me off originally, but since it looked like this was factory original, I didn't sweat it. Good to know, though.

IMG_20200923_232548 (resized).jpgIMG_20200923_232603 (resized).jpg
#14 14 hours ago
Quoted from vindic8r:

here are some photos of the wiring at the L flipper solenoid now, just so we can fully rule that out.

Wiring looks fine. Doesn't hurt to verify.

Quoted from vindic8r:

Right. So I confirmed continuity to all 3 of the wires going to the solenoid from J902 and J907.
For grins, I tested voltage again at J907. 1-2, 6-7 read ~67VDC. But now I'm getting 0VDC at 4-5 (Red-Blue). I confirmed this a 2nd time. I checked F904 out of circuit and its good. It looks we might have found something here.

Quoted from vindic8r:

I'm assuming we're going to be chasing the lack of voltage at 4-5 now

Yes. So when I see this sort of stuff I always go back to basics. Verify. Verify. Verify. I found something. It's going to be a lengthy explanation so I apologize. I think it's going to be about an hour by the time I'm done with this reply. It'll then be time to ZzzZZzzZz.

Here is an actual Fliptronic-II board. I spend so much time on my own boards I don't bother with the original Williams boards. Front and rear. Labeled and color coded for your convenience.

01_fliptronic-front.jpg
02-fliptronic_rear.jpg

Here is the documentation from the manual for The Shadow. Corrections applied. Again color coded for your convenience.

03_shadow_manual_INCORRECT.jpg

Finally ... here is the documentation from the manual for Indianapolis 500. No corrections required. Oddly enough some of the manuals that followed this game still seem to have the error. Copy & paste strikes again.

04_indianapolis500_manual_CORRECT.jpg

So ... after all the required evidence to support my claim ... you need to test everything again with the renewed, correct knowledge based on the actual Fliptronic-II board and not the incorrect Williams manuals. I know Williams manuals have errors and I hate it when I discover them.

For J907-4,5 you need to verify fuse F902 (not F904).

- Please verify that fuse is not blown. If blown then replace it and check the DC voltage again.

- If the DC voltage is present at J907-4,5 then check for DC voltage at the flipper solenoid power lug (banded end of the diode). If no DC voltage is present at the flipper solenoid power lug then you have to have a break in the wire.

- If there is no DC voltage present at J907-4,5 and you checked the fuse is not blown then pull the Fliptronic-II board and post pictures of the board.

Let's start with that first before going any further. It might just be the fuse because we've been focusing on the wrong fuse (thanks to the erroneous documentation).

If you're read this far ... congratulations.

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