(Topic ID: 110586)

The secrets of Atlantis.....my resto thread


By BCpinhead

5 years ago



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  • 218 posts
  • 15 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 4 years ago by MikeO
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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There are 218 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 5.
#1 5 years ago

Hi, since I bought this a month ago, I have realized this machine needs a lot of love. More than I thought, but a month ago I did not know anything about pinball machines except I liked to play them once upon a time.

Recap:
Located in northern BC canada. A long way from a service tech!
Machine has not been played in at least 10 years.
Play counter reads 86,114!
Basically 99% complete as far as I can tell missing back box metal cover and some parts of the tilt mechanism, possibly a few play field parts.
Needs full repaint
Cost me $150 for the machine as is.
I've ordered a full set of play field rubbers and also stencils for an eventual repaint back to orig graphics.
My first PM never worked on one ever.

So the machine did not complete the full start up sequence (it still does not). When I first plugged it in, I could tell the score counters were one obvious source of trouble they did not reset to zero, and as well the bank of 10 pop up targets on the left hand side of play field will also not reset. The score motor was loose and dirty. Somebody before me decided that some 3 in 1 oil would fix the popup targets (sigh) and that oil dripped onto the score motor.

For the past month I have been working slowly on the backbox guts....I figured that would be a good training ground for me, watched all the very helpful videos, combed through posts here and other sites...all so very helpful thank you!! All the score reels have been stripped, cleaned and now work smoothly. Having passed grade 1 tech I moved over to the ball count step motor!! Now i am on the credit stepper i think.

My question for this night is: on the metal lobes / cams that briefly contact each other in the stepper units, do you lube the contact surfaces with super lube gel, or leave them dry? I did lube the shoulder bolts and other obvious places they were binding, just not sure of these little areas of metal to metal contact. Also do you lube the big black gear teeth in the centre of the unit?

image.jpg

#2 5 years ago

Whoops posted that too fast ...an example of the metal lobe I'm asking about it on the very bottom centre of the above pic....you can see the finish looks a little beat from use. Lube it or leave it dry?
Also, the switch stack on top right was missing a nut. I found one at a local hardware store but it is very big physically outside diam compared to the original ones....where do I find replacement bolts and nuts for these switch stacks I know I am missing a bolt and nut on another switch stack on the score motor. Please keep in mind that I do not have a large local selection of materials to choose from being in a small town. I felt like I won the lottery when I found a small dusty bottle of tri flow in the bike store, and also a small tube of super Teflon gel! Yeah!! (I'll skip the 3 in 1 oil for now)...

#3 5 years ago

While were at it, when I was rebuilding the ball count stepper, I noticed that the brass rivets are worn, and also the snowshoes (I think that is what they are called). I sanded them with 600 paper and tried to round the flat edges of the snowshoes that make contact with the rivets. I'm pretty sure I read someone used JB weld to build up the rivet surface area when they get too worn. This machine obviously has some wear and tear, so eventually wondering if that is something of a viable option?

The way things are going now, I'm going to have many many hours invested in this machine and I would like it to fully play and last awhile.
Thanks,
John

#4 5 years ago

Super lube on the teeth is fine. Tri-Flow on the moving pivot points is excellent both for loosening up gummed up pivots and lubrication.

As for the snowshoes, the riding surface is supposed to be flat. Don't round them. If there are grooves worn in the rivet heads flow a bit of solder on them. If you overfill you will have to file them down.

Stay motivated on getting through this game. It is worth it. Atlantis is my desert island game.

Post pictures of the missing hardware you need with dimensions and I will mail you what you need.

#5 5 years ago

Silver solder (instead of regular solder) works well for filling in the worn rivets that have the groove in them. You can also use a small flat blade screwdriver and turn the rivets a bit (using the groove as a slot). Just enough to get the groove at a different angle to the spring-loaded fingers, and give them a bit more to ride on.

On the Credit unit pictured, the return spring needs to hook into the post that's behind/underneath the top switch (there's a hole in the top of that post, and the return spring should have a small single loop at the end to hook in there).

Post edited by DirtFlipper: Changed Ball Count to Credit

#6 5 years ago

Arrrghhhh!,,,,,
Was a bad night trying to get the ball count stepper back together... all my alignment markings are gone from all the handling and general farting around!!!

DO NOT rely on pen marks and scratches with a screw driver for marking alignment of critical pieces!!!!! But you probably knew that. Sigh...

I tried figuring it out watching the mechanics as I stepped it up and down. It been a long day. It has me beat for now. Annnnd to top it off the increment step seems to be sticking still / again.

Does anything look out of sorts in this pics? I think I have it at zero in this pic but when I count up I can only get 12 before the post on the big black gear binds on the tension wire for the spring. The counter reel goes to 15 so something is up. Thinking the spring tension wire may have got bent while I was wrenching on it?

image.jpg

#7 5 years ago

Thanks for the advice and encouragement by the way....this is a pretty tedious undertaking for me anyways. I never thought of using solder that makes too much sense, I'll keep that in my back pocket.

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#8 5 years ago

Ive got extra stack screws if you need one or two...send me a pm. give me a rough length

#9 5 years ago

Thanks pinhead52 I will send you a pm if needed ....very kind offer. After all we must be family eh?

Lol

#10 5 years ago

John your spring is anchored in the wrong spot. It should be connected to the post that I pointed to in green. Where it is now is an alternate position for a switch stack. Make sure there's enough tension wound into it to bring the gear back to zero after it's been rotated.

Make sure your bolt and back nut (marked blue) isn't binding. That whole linkage should be moving freely.

Make sure your stops (purple) are set to allow the step-up pawl (orange) to drive the gear to the next position.

If you can, take pictures before you take something apart. Don't assume that what you're taking a picture of is correct, you can always verify most mechanical bits from the Gottlieb 1978 parts book. You can get one from Pinball Resource - http://www.pbresource.com/eldorado.html#doc

323297-i-296.jpg

#11 5 years ago

GTB lube chart below John

GTBlubechart.pdf

#12 5 years ago

Oops, that's not the Ball Count unit - that's the Credit Unit. [Fixed my previous post]

#13 5 years ago

I can't quite tell from the angle of the picture, but it looks like the cam is missing the Max Credits post.

The post that's there will lift the bottom two switches in the stack when at the zero position. But there should be another post that opens the top switch when the credit wheel reaches the maximum credits (usually 15). It goes in one of the threaded holes on the cam. (It's adjustable, and the max credits can be set to limit it to lower values, like 5 or 9.)

#14 5 years ago
Quoted from BCpinhead:

I read someone used JB weld to build up the rivet surface area when they get too worn.

I had this issue too.

Quoted from DirtFlipper:

Silver solder (instead of regular solder) works well for filling in the worn rivets that have the groove in them.

+ one ↑

I had great results and it still works fine without any issues.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/em-count-unit-wear-option#post-929905

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from jasonsmith:

John your spring is anchored in the wrong spot. It should be connected to the post that I pointed to in green.

Thanks so much Jason!!! That certainly explains a few things although now I'm nervous to reroute that spring over to its correct location. I will take the switch stack off but I have no idea how much tension is needed. Does a person just count how many wraps around the spindle from "slack" position and go by trial and error. ?

That is a good point ...not to assume what came out and taking picture of before disassembly is correct. I admit I need a game schematic and I guess now this parts manual you mention, plus a switch stack file thing, plus?....I was hoping to put this order aside until I get the popup target issue identified and the missing play field pieces so I don't have to pay so much on individual shipping charges vs one order.

323297-i-296.jpg 57 KB

#16 5 years ago
Quoted from DirtFlipper:

I can't quite tell from the angle of the picture, but it looks like the cam is missing the Max Credits post.
The post that's there will lift the bottom two switches in the stack when at the zero position. But there should be another post that opens the top switch when the credit wheel reaches the maximum credits (usually 15). It goes in one of the threaded holes on the cam. (It's adjustable, and the max credits can be set to limit it to lower values, like 5 or 9.)

DF Thank you. I think you are trying to tell me something very important, and I'm trying to understand your post. I will take another picture when I get home from a different angle and better light. There is only one vertical post coming up off the black gear (sorry is that the cam?) and in the above picture the one post is resting on the left hand side of the switch stack. I think this is zero credit position ...is it? When I was cycling the mechanism mildly cursing and bewildered last night I was wondering what the large switch did / purpose that sits all by itself on the right hand side of the switch stack (in picture above). I guess I now know. Missing more parts is that the max credit counter switch and (missing) post?

#17 5 years ago

Thanks Wayner for the lube chart.

#18 5 years ago

I guess I can reroute the spring as mentioned to correct spot, get the stepper action working correctly ie. no bind and then just reinstall the unit then install the missing the max credit post later while I carry on. I do not want to even touch the tiny "as" stepper units aside from maybe give the copper traces a light sand and once over on the switch contacts looking for obvious trouble. I had hoped to flip the entire back box board down away from the back glass to replace all the bulbs, clean the glass very very gently and maybe krylon it assuming I can find that in town before calling the back box "complete" and moving onto the play field issues mainly the entire popup target rack.

#19 5 years ago

yes, that black gear is the cam.

The max credit post looks very similar to the post that's there, except that it's threaded on one end, and screws into one of the adjacent holes on the cam, to the right of the post that's there. There should be three threaded holes from which to choose.

The return spring wraps will be around 6-7.

Here's a large picture of an Atlantis credit unit for reference. (Unfortunately it's hard to see the max credit post, as it's hiding behind the return spring.)

2013Dec24 022.JPG

#20 5 years ago

My gawd that is clean. Envious. How do you get the wire looms so clean? Mine are all dusty.

Anyways, that is a very helpful pic DF. Thanks for the handholding too. I retread my post above and got all carried away sorry. If they are hard to come by, I can probably make one of those posts as it is the same thread as the switch stack bolt.

I just came upstairs from looking at it saying to myself I need a picture to see the spring wire routing, especially under the switch stack and lo and behold! Awesome! That sucker does have some tension on it. I think I may count the wraps in your picture vs my spring to judge correct tension. I cannot see the exact routing on the picture you posted, ...I see how the spring wire goes into the mount but cannot see where the tail end points too. It goes around the mount arm then enters the hole heading back towards the cam, but then where? If you could tell me that ... Well, you can have first play.

#21 5 years ago

Here's a picture with the post. It's basically a 4-40 screw, nut, and a piece of tubing as an insulator. You should be able to find all these parts at a decent hardware store. image-807.jpgimage-587.jpgimage-2.jpg

#22 5 years ago

The status quo as of a few minutes ago. I'm hoping an extra wrap or two will provide more tension and assist my lazy increment action. I checked both shoulder bolts pivot points and they are free. Something else is causing grief. When I first tried the mechanism mounted in the machine it was extremely lazy and would basically not move up or down on its own (spring?) power.

image-526.jpg

#23 5 years ago

Thanks MikeO I will do exactly that. At least now I know which stores in town are even a possibility for tiny fasteners. Lol...
Those tiny little switch stack nuts just are not gonna happen though.

#24 5 years ago

All the stepper units have the same return spring set up. So if you look over at the Ball Count unit (backside), or the Advance Unit (hanging under the playfield), hopefully one of them has the return spring attached to the post correctly and can be used as reference.

But basically you want to move the end of it 180 degrees from where it is now, clockwise, and form the end into a small hook (like a backwards 'P').

If you click on the picture I posted, it will enlarge, and you can see the end where it hooks.

Also, on yours, the second to bottom switch blade has been replaced and is way longer than it needs to be. It should be the same length as the blade above it that has the Nylon spacer attached (those two move together via the post on the cam). Can just cut it to length.

#25 5 years ago

Yessssss! You guys are grrrrreat! Got it back together the way it should be and it works!!! Had to add a little tension on the increment return spring now it works like a charm. I see I have a broken fibreboard piece between two switches. Dirt flippers pic above shows how it should be. Should I fiddle with small piece of wood to replace or leave as is you figure?

Anyways, I'm thrilled to put that behind me and just have simple task tomorrow to go to the hardware stores to try (again) to find a 4-40 bolt to make a max credit post. I think I can use the largish nuts avail locally for this job. Cut that extra large switch blade you mentioned too. Much neater. Very pleased....

Maybe tip down the board to replace bulbs tomorrow night!! Only taken a month +\-!! Lol

Could anyone please tell me if there are any special blinker bulbs on the back glass? I bought some 47 bulbs online the night I brought the machine home thinking it will be easy....I'll just go a few things first....plug it in you know, see what happens...watching the score reels shimmy and struggle...
<insert bad sounding noises>
Cheers,
John

#26 5 years ago

'Game Over' lamps.

#27 5 years ago
Quoted from BCpinhead:

Could anyone please tell me if there are any special blinker bulbs on the back glass?

They look good behind the "swimmers".

#28 5 years ago
Quoted from BCpinhead:

Should I fiddle with small piece of wood to replace or leave as is you figure?

You can leave it alone. It's there to make sure the credit limit switch (top switch) doesn't end up touching the switch below it. Usually there's not enough movement for that to happen.

For flashers, Gottlieb used a slightly different bulb socket where they intended for them to be used. The socket opening sits closer to flush with the wood than does a regular socket. (They're closer to flush with the wood to allow room for the globe-shaped flasher bulbs, as opposed to the sub-flush sockets that take the regular 44s/47s that are no wider than their base.)

Usually Game Over is a flasher bulb, and that socket can be used as reference for comparison.

#29 5 years ago

Well darn!!! Big moment of triumph not to be. I put the credit counter back in, replaced most of bulbs, and put the backbox back on the cabinet. Put plugs back in and tried to see if I could get a complete start up sequence. Not to be. I'm having a big problem with the 10 score reel? There is an angry buzz coming from the 10 reel... it seems to be stuck? But works well when you manually cycle it. The 100 reel is different than all the other score reels and I don't know why. I'm wondering if a previous owner did some kind of swap or is it supposed to look like this?
The 100, 1000 and 10000 reels reset fine.

See pic

image-317.jpg

#30 5 years ago

The 10 score reel
Yes there is a machine screw missing.

image-846.jpg

#31 5 years ago

And a total strike out in town for those darn 4-40 switch stack bolts....in this case though it was to make a max credit post for the cam (currently missing). The smallest anyone sells in town is 6/32.
Still have not a chime or ding or anything like anything on the play field will actually work.

#32 5 years ago

a 4-40 size screw is a rare size these days for any normal retailer. It would be more a specialty size that would need to be ordered online or maybe from PBR.

Not all the score reels have circuit boards on them. The 10's has one so that Match logic can work, and the 1000s and 10,000s have them so that the replay levels for scoring can work. The 100s isn't involved in either of those, so doesn't have one.

Sounds like the 10's reel is stuck on energized. So need to check if the N relay is also stuck on (the 10pt relay).

Something on the playfield worth 10 points may have a stuck switch, which causes N to activate, which causes the score reel to activate, but because the scoring feature switch is stuck closed, there isn't a chance to 'let go'.

Or, the end of stroke (EOS) switch on the 10pt score reel isn't opening as the reel steps, allowing N to turn off.

If the locked on coils begin as soon as a game is started, then it's most likely a stuck 10pt score feature on the playfield.

If the N relay doesn't get stuck on until after the first 10pt value is scored, then it's most likely the EOS switch on the 10 point reel.

#33 5 years ago
Quoted from BCpinhead:

Yes there is a machine screw missing.

Check your chime unit for a screw that isn't "essential" in the meantime...pretty sure some of those are the same exact screw. Not the ones that hold it to the cabinet but the actual screws that hold the 2 pieces of the unit together...it won't miss one until you find a replacement.

#34 5 years ago

The chime unit will not have any 4-40 screws. There are other places on the game that have 4-40 screws that would work but then you would be compromising that item.

As for finding them in retail, go to an Ace or True Value hardware store that has the specialty parts drawers. I saw them at the local True Value just this weekend.

Or as Ken and I both offered, PM your mailing address and one of us will send you a screw.

#35 5 years ago

If you have a model train supply store in town, they carry 4-40 screws. It is quite common size on pinball mechs so get a bunch of different lengths. Lowes sometimes carry them also.

I get them from PBR.

#36 5 years ago
Quoted from MikeO:

The chime unit will not have any 4-40 screws.

Mine had the EXACT same screws that fit score reel circuit board--whether those are 4-40 or not (the one he is missing--I had same exact issue), on an Atlantis too actually. Fit like a glove.

#37 5 years ago
Quoted from Wickerman2:

Mine had the EXACT same screws that fit score reel circuit board--whether those are 4-40 or not (the one he is missing--I had same exact issue), on an Atlantis too actually. Fit like a glove.

We are talking two different things. My mistake.

Yes, there are four screws on the chime unit, assuming they are all there, that will hold the circuit board to the score reel mech.

#38 5 years ago

Thanks you guys. The missing bolt and screw is a tiny distraction right now compared to having to delve into this backbox again. I will place an order soon for misc bits so I will get a few bolts put in thanks for the offers.

I have never played this game, so I was hoping someone who knows this Atlantis game could please tell me what features score 10 points to help me narrow down what to look for on the play field for a stuck switch as suggested by DF.

When I first put the back box on after my revamp, I made sure all the reels were not a zero to see if they would reset. As mentioned, when it hit the start up button on the coin door, all did except the 10 reel and makes horrible buzzing noise. I will take that reel out now and make sure I assembled it properly as process of elimination.

#39 5 years ago

Update. So the N relay does not seem to be stuck on when the score reel coil is making that racket. I had it set on 2 then plugged it in, made the racket right off the bat, then I pushed the game start button on coin door. Tried to reset the 2 and still making noise. So I'm standing there looking into the backbox at the N relay with all the racket trying to concentrate and then it switches to 3 and the racket stops. Then it slows ticks to 4 then 5 with no racket. I wander to the front of the machine and it then ticks to 6 then slowly 7. A few minutes later I'm typing this with the kids staring at it (in the quiet!) it ticks to 8 just because. Still at 8 now for a few minutes. Looks nice with the lights on lol! Any advice would be very appreciated. It seems it does want to try and help me play it??!!

#40 5 years ago

Just pushed up on the N switch bank as it stands quiet and it went to 9 quickly but with the loud buzz "the racket" only momentarily. The I sat down to type this progress and it goes to zero again same as above. Few seconds in it goes to 1 - now I shut it off. It def seems as though a switch somewhere it making intermittent action. But why the horrible noise whenever it activates at the reel coil?
I'm gonna owe you guys a pile of brews at the end of this!!

#41 5 years ago

The common things for the 10 point reel would be:

A stuck or too close 10 point switch on the playfield.

Dirty or misadjusted switches on the 10 point relay.

Dirty or misadjusted switches on the 10 point score reel itself.

I have seen instances where the "LOCK IN" switch on the score reel is broken (the longer blade actually broken off).

By the way, that 100 point reel does not have a circuit board. That's normal for this machine.

#42 5 years ago
Quoted from BCpinhead:

Just pushed up on the N switch bank as it stands quiet and it went to 9 quickly

If you had to push up on N, then it sound like there's a switch stuck closed on it, or N is stuck on (although quiet). The plastic ladder stack and armature plate should not be pulled in towards the coil.

Check the switches on N and see that they are all gapped correctly.

There's a normally open switch on N (RED-BLK, GR-RED) that activates the 10 pt score reel coil. When this switch closes, the 10 pt score reel coil activates, pulling in the plunger to step the reel. When the plunger pulls in, it needs to open the normally closed EOS switch to cut power to N. When N deactivates, then the switch there opens again, which in turn cuts power to the 10pt score reel coil.

#43 5 years ago
Quoted from BCpinhead:

I was hoping someone who knows this Atlantis game could please tell me what features score 10 points to help me narrow down what to look for on the play field for a stuck switch as suggested by DF

Atlantis is mostly 500 point scoring.

The only switches that score 10 points are the switches behind the drop targets that can be hit when the drops are down and the slingshot kickers. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess it would not be the slingshots with the stuck switch because you would be seeing evidence of the slingshot being stuck energized. So that puts you down to the two switches behind the drops.

#44 5 years ago

Beautiful!!
It works!!!!!
First chimes heard!!

#45 5 years ago

The culprit.

image-463.jpg
#46 5 years ago

OK great but I would not have thought the target was a 10 pointer!

#47 5 years ago

Darn....short lived victory. Same problem is back. I don't really know what I did the first time to settle things down where I could activate the ball switch thing to get the play field and chimes working.
every time I turned it on off on short order (with buzzing reel) it would advance one number. Somehow on the last go round, it just finished the reset quietly (all zeros). At least I now know it works! That is very exciting just itself!

I manually activated mostly every target last time around prior to successful reset, and must have got lucky. I thought the above pic was the source but now thinking I'll check the roll over targets they score 10 also. My paper trick is not doing the job I thought it was ...too easy...?!?

The N relay is a mystery DF sorry but I don't really understand how they are supposed work. Back to grade 1 EM tech. I have to go back and read your post again and again. All four switch blades inthe plastic ladder are open at all times even when buzzing noise happens. Noise is clearly coming from the score reel coil and when I manually close the switches by pushing up on the littler plastic ladder (fiddling not knowing what I'm actually doing I confess) nothing happens...still buzzing away.

I turned machine on / off again with loud noise at each step. As soon as power is cut it advances one step. When I get to 9 it the "buzzing" is less loud, and at zero seemed like it almost wanted to go away. Sorry for all the gibberish I hope you can follow me.

#48 5 years ago
Quoted from wayner:

OK great but I would not have thought the target was a 10 pointer!

It's not. I was / am an excited dumb ass.
Still savouring the first seconds of gloat as the ding dings rang out and we all saw it "work". Lol
There is no shortcuts around these machines that's for sure.

#49 5 years ago

I'm going to closely at the EOS switch on the reel as suggested by DF.
An energized (sustained) coil can make this very loud rattling / buzzing noise? They must have tsome power to do so! It's like a mini jackhammer!

#50 5 years ago
Quoted from BCpinhead:

An energized (sustained) coil can make this very loud rattling / buzzing noise?

Yes, they can.

So it still sounds like the score reel coil is energized, with the plunger pulled in. The reel won't actually advance until the coil is off, letting go of the plunger (that's when the reel actually advances). So each time you turn power off, the reel is finally able to advance.

There are only two paths to energize that coil: the reset path and the score path.

The score path is via the switch on N that I noted above. There's only that one switch on N that will activate the coil. If it's closed, or there's a short on the backside where the tabs are, the score reel coil will energize. If the switch on N is stuck closed (or has a short on the backside), then the EOS switch on the score reel will have no effect. N would not need to be energized at all if the switch there is stuck closed (or there's a short).

The reset path goes through a normally open switch at score motor 1A, a switch on the A relay, and the runout switch on the score reel (middle switch of the switch stack there). If all three switches are stuck closed somehow, then the score reel would be stuck on. This seems very unlikely.

A way to test if the problem is coming from something on the playfield is to unplug the smallest jones plug that comes from the playfield straight to the backbox. That's the one that carries the scoring signals. The score reels will still be able to reset though. And you can still manually activate the N relay and step the reel.

However, with the playfield unplugged, if the 10's reel still sticks on, then that suggests a stuck switch on N still.

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