I dont know man, some really excellent older games.... TZ is probably my fav of the 90's stuff. Playfield layout is just a masterpiece that will never be rivaled.

Couldn't agree more. It's my fav as well!

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Its not just any +15 year old machine, it happens to be a VERY desirable one and one of the most expensive ones traded today. It took a long time to climb up to that price pinnacle. Its pretty straight forward thinking making a re-run of that title based on popularity / desirability.

Pricing a new and different game based off of the example above is just trying to ride the coat tails.
MM is not a WOZ and vice versa.

Most of the games that I like best are from the 90s. The only game that came out in the last 3 years that I can say I really dig is AC\DC, so I guess I disagree.

Yes, this exactly!

You try to point the finger and you will always have three fingers pointing right back at you.

Sadly, you guys have no one to blame but yourselves with these prices.

It's now time to lie down in the bed that you've made.

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The new games definitely got the WOW factor with the way they have integrated all this rgb color changing led's and so on...I love both new and old, its just the new stuff you can get shipped to your door and its brand new and looks mint. I fully understand anyones love for the new sterns/jjp. Its tough to find the old stuff in awesome condition and can be frustrating when you have high expectations.

really?? That is your your best pick?
It's a good table but, a few ahead of it, I would think...MM/TZ/MB?CV ..on and on.....

There allot of good games that can be found around 4k mark like twilight zone . The Addams family. Williams indiana jones. Star Trek next generation . Theatre of magic . Maybe at lest another 5 more that have just as much to offer then the new pins selling for 6500 to 9000 .. There's also allot of good games around 2500 the shadow . The who tommy . Fish tales . And again at lest another 5 more that I am not listing.

I will never spend more the. 6000 on a pin but that's just me though

Honestly, given an unlimited budget, the first 3-5 machines in my collection would be form the 90s. It has nothing to do with rarity. Having said that I haven't played a Tron or AC/DC...yet.

Respectfully disagree wholeheartedly. Your best example of a 90's game that maybe "hold a candle" to pins of the last 3 years is White Water?

I like newer Sterns a lot, but aside from fancy lights and "newness", there is really nothing more special about them. There are less toys, less code, and less design innovation. Those are the reasons I like a pin.

Can't beat the great 90s pins. New stuff while flashy sometimes leave something to be desired...except for lotr.

That's a really big factor. Often times routed, beat up, non-dialed in games from the 90s are compared to new shiny Sterns that just got pulled out of the box. Well of course they we look and feel superior. If the 90s game is restored and dialed in perfect, then we could have a true comparison. The other side of the problem is from those that have been in the hobby for 10+ years, they are sick of playing those games and have may have a difficult time recalling how great the older titles where when they first played them compared to the newness of a game they've never played before.

Newer Sterns have "less code" than games from the 90's?

which sterns are we comparing

TZ and BBH

People that bought in at $6500, then selling their positions close to or above the $9000 price point dictated a new retail price of $9000.00

Stern did it too.

Would more "incomplete code" have been more appropriate? Which 90's W/B games feel like they're missing something as in a mode mentioned on the playfield that they just didn't get to in the development of the software?

reason? opportunity and money.

man, i just can't wait in 2 years market will be so flooded with machines it's going to be a feast frenzy.
i'd probably save 2-3k right there on a woz super le, good times coming.

Let us hope not. Hopefully, economy starts growing and the hobby keeps growing. If heck arrives in a hand basket, the least of our worries will be a plethora of pins available at bargain prices.

Yep, that's my bet too. We were saving for a WOZ and then decided that no pinball is worth that amount of money to us. Hell... I have a problem paying half of what WOZ and the LE Sterns are going for. No offense meant to you guys who shit money but to me this is only a hobby and I dream of the day that everyone moves on to the next big thing and all these pins are worth next to nothing.

Awww...then you wake up.

Anybody else sense the tide is beginning to turn on the pre order NIB model?

Too many shenanigans.

My wallet is closed for now.

Even if I could afford 8 or 9k to throw around, it would be at something else. Either 2-4 90's pins, or strippers!

Well what is an "unlimited budget" when you are talking about pinball machines??? For three machines, 30k sure feels unlimited to me. I'd pick WOZ, BSD, and EBD as my first three. And I'd have a lot of money left over to build a gameroom.

The reason for 1000 MM selling for $8000 is because people were selling these for $12000 before the announcement.

A WOZLE just went from $7500 to $9000.

I see a difference. Anyone else.

exactly.

i think people are tired of those ridiculous prices. i will never pay 10k+ for a pin.
people need to stop buying at ridiculous price and watch the price go down, unfortunately ...

That is what we said years ago when things pushed to $5k was crazy price then 6k became crazy, then7k now 8k and beyond.
does it end? will it peak?

Only in the Twilight zone

I think gameplay of the newer Sterns may be as good (and in some cases, better) as some of the B/W titles, I certainly don't think build quality is. I may be wrong here, but it certainly feels as though B/W titles were built better than any stern machine.

As Bigdaddy mentioned, if you play an older game that hasn't been maintained, it will definitely not be up to snuff compared to a new Stern.

WOZ truely is a great machine, solidly built, great rules. But at 9k I will never own one.

It cannot because the cost to build here in the US keeps going up. You would have to outsource to bring the prices down.

What part feels better built?

The Stern cabinet and playfield is made by CCC, the same company that made the cabs and playfields for Williams back in the day.

Yep,big difference.
If people are foolish enough to pay / buy into it more power to him.

The only thing missing is federal guaranteed loans to cover costs when people buying them default.

But to Stern specs, not WMS specs. The Stern playfields are significantly thinner for example.

Yes, thank you.

I keep reading how modern Stern's are supposed to feel like Zizzle machines when compared to B/W games, and I've never gotten it.

My AC/DC Premium feels just as solid and well made as any B/W game I've had -- either currently or in the past.

I've got Stern, Williams, CPR and a JJP playfield all in the shop, all the same thickness.

Want to add some titles and measurement numbers with that statement ?

Where's the "$10K by Christmas " Guy . He's gonna need to change to $20K by Christmas

Then you are missing out my friend.

It's PPS' fault according to Jack.

Its a good thing he is not doing the MM remake.

This statement reminded me of when friends who smoked said " I'll quit when cigs hit $5. a pack." Guess what? They're still smokin', or dead.

I know, right? Usually there's a big wet spot "down there" too when I awake.

Knew this was coming...

From my own experience Sterns felt cheaper, at least initially. I had a IM and Tron and they just felt cheap in comparison to my classic 80s/90/s pins. But it wasn't the quality of individual parts per se, and in some cases I thought they were better quality. In the end it was the overall package. One tour around the playfield and backbox and you can see all the extra elements missing in a Stern, some small some big ... backbox lighting, plastic apron, playfield supports, all plastic ramps, cheap toys, cheap art, and the dreaded LE markup ... sterns accountants seemed to be on a cost cutting frenzy. There are still great bang-for-the-buck Sterns like LOTR, TSPP, and others, but not in recent years.

I'm surprised at how many people don't get this.

I don't think 'allot' means what you think it means.

Again, I don't get how more people aren't bothered b y this. For example, ST is about 2/3 of a SM or 1/2 of a STTNG. And no, a bunch of cheap (sub-dollar) pretty/shiny/bright LEDs doesn't really add 'value' to an entertainment device like a pinball machine. Really, where is all that extra $$ going to in that STLE?

Funny that no one here even is suggesting that poor management, redesigns, start up costs, huge BOM, cost over runs, delays, delays and more delays, combined with way lower sales than JJP was projecting might have something to do with this? The new price simply represents the price needed to make any money out of one of these things. Even at $9250 I doubt the profit margin comes close to Stern and not even in the same stratosphere as MMr. We will see $10K very soon, especially if they keep doing awesome but unnecessary stuff like clearcoating cabinets.

Bingo! It wasn't as easy as Jack thought it would be.

You mean Ben Heck?