I think 2023 is the year you possibly might be proven wrong.

I'm curious how much they are charging for some of these licenses. I'm curious what a Stern original theme would cost. I thought it was very out of touch for Gomez at Stern to state that you have to have an established IP in the interview below, yet we are seeing so many remakes of themes that were strictly pinball themes and some of those originally sold 6,000 machines at release.

Here is a very interesting interview to check out. Also some good talk about Opto spinners costing too much. A regular switch they might get for $0.10. Opto spinner cost about ~$0.50, so when you talk about Sterns material costs, we are talking about parts that cost dollars and pennies.

I mean, yea they should ignore trying to please all customers, because you have to just do what you want. Don't know the numbers, but is Chicago gaming not selling that well? Seems like Cactus Canyon is doing alright. I see that game and Medieval Madness popup all the time. I just guess I don't understand the claim that Pinball only IP's don't sell. This is just the info from pinside not sure how accurate and I don't know what Stern considers break-even vs financial success. Is that 10,000+ units per game? Anyone know?

Just 3 random games I chose.
Bride of Pinbot: 8,000
Haunted House 7,000
Medieval Madness 4,000

That's also just NIB sales, not how many consumers purchase a used one in which I would consider another sale, because there is demand for the IP from a secondary consumer. I think there is demand.

I mean for sure if you can go with a micro SPDT switch by all means save money at volume. Not knocking them.

This is my go to supplier, Jameco. They have various ones and this is the highest discount at volume, I'm sure Stern can get them cheaper at 50,000 qty. I use the $0.12 one. It requires a Phototransistor LED of the same cost. Not sure if Stern uses a transistor to boost the signal or not which would be another $0.19. I just find it funny knowing an opto LED costs under $1 with PCB and everything, that the 4 opto spinners were advertised as a bullet point on the $20,000 bond.

True, could be making money for Nostalgia. TNA seemed to make good money however. But I do talk to a lot of pinball people and myself and a ton of us have zero ties to 1988 pinball. We still find Cactus Canyon and Medieval Madness appealing and very fun, so it's not nostalgia to us.
IR LED (resized).png

Yea to many it's a licensed game in a sense, it's not strictly a license though. I literally walked up to a MM one day in an arcade, didn't know anything about the prior game, who CGC was or anything and I was like "This game is sweet". I chat with some kids that got into pinball very recently and now they are at the local free play shops. They love Cactus Canyon. It's something new to them too.

In terms of financial obligations, they paid a licensing fee. In terms of consumer brand recognition, for half of us, that recognition isn't there. My point was that alone. Good interview either way if you never saw it. Might want to check it out.

To be fair, if Dialed in is what makes Jersey Jack decide original IP's never sell and they won't make an original IP...isn't an entertaining idea on it's own. Maybe had they released a better idea. I'd blame the design team on that one.

If they just made a game with a high level concept of robots and just decided the theme was based of of robots, any style, cartoon, Transformers like, anything you can concept about robots.............they went will interacting with a cell phone.

Since it's on the topic of pinball pricing, my guess is licensing 5% would be the absolute minimum I could imagine (500 per game @ 10K). Probably 25% for movies is a better guess. That's $2,500 out. Make a Stern Pro, without a license, you get a Pro game at the price of their affordable home game lineup. All these other new IP's were charging MSRP of licensed games.

I didn't ask that of them. I merely said that an unlicensed game at a good price, could sell. You have to tie in the fact that the IP was a cellphone and cost $10k. I don't know where you would derive that a new IP just won't sell. No other factors why Dialed In might not have sold (whatever it did sell, just taking your word it wasn't good)?

For sure. Be stupid to think otherwise.

My point was theme vs established IP. A new idea be it a movie, videogame, etc, has to be cool theme.

I suppose, yet there are 100's of new movie/videogame/netflix shows released every single year with new ideas. Including robots. People eat them up and they make money. I think pinball games can be fun and sell the same as any other form of entertainment. Dialed In if you came into a product pitch not knowing it's a pinball game: "This is a game you will interact with a cellphone with x,y,z and our anticipated market is 40+ year old men".

I'm talking blind here, but going off Levi and some others that said Toy Story didn't do well. Target Market: 40+ year old men. Let's not only license an IP with a target audience 4-10 (the movie), but let's not even get the IP that our 40+ year old audience grew up with.

Can I ask about topper pricing? Here is a list of toppers, acrylic cut with vinyl adhesive art. Can toppers be made and sold cheaper that $750 MSRP? What do you guys think the bill of material cost for these is?
https://littleshopofgames.com/product-category/toppers/stern-toppers/

Why would somebody offer good prices to the consumers that made them: Why would you lower your prices: Maybe to be a good dude. Squeezing every drop of money out of your customers is not necessary to maintain a business.

Just pointing out someone making toppers for $20 and selling for $700. That is honest business that you have to stick up for. Why? Because you like their games and they are fun? Can you separate that conversation for Toppers? What in your mind is justification for $700 topper. Honest question. Not about sales numbers. I wouldn't be happy to sell them that expensive. I get people will pay. Yes I believe you could sell more at a better price. But I see some posts you say BOM is way higher. Ok toppers has nothing to do with BOM. Design cost: nope. Licensing fee: You think the license fee on toppers is $600? doubt it. So then what? Your arguments I guess are Pinball is a pure collector hobby and pricing has nothing to do with BOM+design+any other things you mentioned. Explain why a topper is $700. Break it down.

You think $700 is honest/good business/ good ethics for your consumers Levi? Is that how you feel about people you work alongside/with/ people who consume your products? I mean the thing costs $20 at best for the toppers I posted.

Yea I don't know what you are that mad about man. Good business and honest business are two different things. I used to follow a band called NOFX. He runs a record label. Best Buy offered him a sellout deal making them exclusive to sell their CD's. He passed and said I already have deals with these little music stores across the US.

Honestly if you believe money is the driving factor for everything, I guess we are just different people. You still have not justified what makes a $700 topper. You said you hate him and don't follow him (Kid Rock, neither do I), but yet you know everything about a video I posted that was 10 years old? I mean it's a fact. Detroit he sold his beers cheap while Bud Lights were $20.

There are good, cool, rich people who make honest money. Maybe they have 20 million instead of 22. That doesn't mean you are bad at business.

Me? Absolutely. And so does every single band that comes to town that I see. They play metal music which is not popular. Even though they are the most talented dudes, they choose to do what they love.

"You have zero idea what Stern's profit margins are"

See you lost me here. This is why I said toppers. You and I know what a piece of 1/16" or 1/8" acrylic costs. We both know what vinyl adhesive poster art costs. those are the 2 things that make up 6 toppers on that website all priced above $500.

And yea man, I'm not claiming to be Jesus, but my wife came from the 3rd world. Her mom couldn't afford a hot water heater so for 28 years my wife took cold showers. You don't need to nickle and dime your friends, customers, family.

When I am the boss, yes.

See you showed your colors man. The consumer, us as a pinball community, people who want pinball items are just plain idiots. I don't think you are an idiot if you want something expensive be it a pinball topper or a Ferari. I guess we are just different people and nothing we can do to agree on anything. See I'd be sad to offer a product so crazy priced that I have to call my customers idiots. I'd rather charge a good price and shake hands with that customer and think I had an honest sale and believe my customers are good people.

There isn't a justification for lots of products. People buy action figures. My friend growing up bought the Master Chief Halo helmet to sit on his desk for $100. People just buy stuff and they like it. Even static things. I got a painting by Michael Cheval that sadly cost me too much money. It sits on my wall. Someone finds value in all kinds of items.

I don't believe Stern has the opinion their customers are idiots. Even with the Bond game. You know they tried something new and boosted the price. But if in order for me to sell products to make a living is to look down on my customers as idiots, I'd take myself out of the game. Not saying that against Stern but the opinion of someone on here. At least I think everyone agrees it's a ridiculous price. Some might say it's so ridiculous that someone that spends it must be stupid. "Too bad you don't run Stern, pinball machines would be way cheaper." What would you do if you owned Stern? Call everyone on Pinside that owns a topper, which I'm sure is a TON of people. Idiots. That you publicly look down on them?

Always something new on the horizon. But we can't even talk about pinball machines if literally we don't even notice that pinball toppers themselves are the leanest, most easy produced cheap product, and Stern isn't willing to sell them for a decent price. If this is all we get is that toppers are dumb, overpriced and people that buy them are stupid, there isn't anywhere to go with the discussion.

For sure. I mean the Mando topper is what it is. I'm sure it cost some actual R&D and design efforts and so on. Not worth the price in my opinion either. But for these acrylic ones. We do know the cost and yea I think you gotta call it out right. It's an outrageous price. "No but..." But it's a greedy price on toppers period. I have to push back on the "business doesn't work this way". How many companies on shark tank donate 1 million dollars in profit to charities? That's charity. 0 return on investment. Stern can still do business and survive with toppers at $100 across the board. They will make up some of it by yes more volume. I worked at a game company and in 1 week we put our game out for FREE on Sony store. We made more that week than almost a year because people were spending tons on in app purchases. Not black and white science in my opinion that lowering the price = bankruptcy. But 100% bad business and human nature to call your own customers stupid pawns that buy your overpriced product. I can't imagine that being a better business philosophy.

No way I would concede that the measure of a good business man is calling consumers who buy your products stupid in any form. You can be shocked how high you can set a price and see it sell, but looking down on those people, buying your decision, buying your product, being proud to sell products with that type of negativity towards the people who literally built you up and made you rich.

I think it compares. I'm merely speaking on someone's personal interest not being solely motivated by adding another million to their bank account. Profit is profit.

There's a well-known show Shark Tank episode if you ever have seen it. One of the famous episodes on there was a guy manufacturing a product called the tree tee pee. This is a manufacturing story. https://www.treetpee.com/

The company is still alive. There isn't a Youtube clip, but the summary is: the billionaire business people on the show crap on him and tell him his margins are garbage so it's not worth it. The guy is a farmer, lost his dad, said his dad raised him to be a fair business man and that he didn't want to rip off farmers. Paul Mitchell then says, you know what I'm gonna just do business with you. I believe in what you stand for. I believe you are right not to rip of your own people. I'll do the exact deal you came in here for. Those are the types of people I look up to and like doing business with.

I think the value of your topper for what it offers at the price is miles better than the stencil cut acrylic toppers I posted before. Just flat pasted graphics for up to $900. I'll have to go through the thread because I'm curious of the light layout and assume the lights are just all mounted to the back, or is the PCB itself literally the size of the topper so it can just be surface mount done? edit: Nvm I think I know what you did for the lighting. Nice creative product.

I'd pay someone 4-8 hours to design the stern flat graphic print topper, unless they are drawing completely by hand, then 2-3 days. I'd give you a solid 40 hr work week or more on the Tron topper. Took some planning, I'd assume a prototype made first. Programming of light sequences etc etc. If you are the biggest company or a small modder, should take pride in your work. I'd expect for $800 at Sterns volume and how much of a following of people willing to pay big bucks, that they would have been the ones to design and produce your Tron topper.

For sure, but I'm saying if you were an established best pinball brand, has a pcb shop, someone that does design on a daily basis. Your topper quality is what I should expect $800 to get from the best pinball company in the world.

I mean I spent 4 years R&D'ing the price of 5/16" steel rod at volumes of 100 feet and 1000 ft. The cost time to cut them, debur them, have them galvanized. I've spoken with copper wire suppliers at volumes of various quantities. Cable making companies. Chip suppliers. Acrylic. Paint. All this stuff. Aside from that I've worked with concept artists from ILM (star wars), various videogame companies. I know what a piece of artwork costs and the time and what a pcb design costs because I build them and get quotes through various shops from USA to China. Might be something you can learn from me. If you think I offer no insights about pinball, business, design etc, then by all means. I'm a dummy and horrible business man.

Well I did a deal with Nuclear Blast if you are familiar with them. They liked working with me. Testament, Gojira, all these bands like doing business with me. Dave Mustaine might work with me. If you think everyone is motivated by money and wants to call fellow pinball fans "stupid" and fellow metal heads (even tighter community) stupid, then I'm certain they won't do business with you. You are on a pinball website and you called anyone that buys pinball toppers stupid. What?

Fwiw Aurich, I wasn't trying to knock you and underestimate your effort and time. I'd bet it did take a lot of time and it shows. Just that a production house usually pumps stuff out fairly quick on a FT schedule with years of experience.

I don't think you need 300 to R&D a badass Tron topper. Guys work is top notch. I'd probably hit him up if I were Stern and see if we couldn't do business. I think I am qualified enough to guestimate a topper cost.

Can't really engage in meaningful conversation with that idea. I mean you said I couldn't guess the cost to R&D an acrylic pinball topper with attached PCB(?)

Feel the same. Oh well. I think you engage yourself respectfully and well.

Well my apologies then, I'm just saying of anyone in the world right now. I'm literally pricing pieces of raw steel to shop to manufacture pinball games. I'm trying. May not work out, but damn I put in the time to know what I'm talking about. Not sure what Levi guys experience in life+work is. My track record already is every employee at EA + Take Two Interactive that trusts my work on billion dollar products sold every year. I mean, I'm a good dude, I like learning stuff and having convos with good people. I've only been in this whole pinball world for 4 years. Levi dude I guess I'm just better off to block him and forget, because he simply isn't offering anything that interests me. I've talked with 1000+ people at tradeshows, my email list is 500 people. I'm on pinside because I enjoy talking and engaging with pinball fans. For all anyone knows I'm 12, signed up for pinside because I like it. Enlighten people if you know something better. But yea, I mean not much else to talk about.

Yea that's why I tried to flow the convo at least to toppers instead of keep the convo stagnant. Anyone can price material costs on those. I wrote Levi 6 months ago via a private message. I never saw his posts on here before. I saw he likes the bands I worked with. I told him I built my entire platform from scratch and said I'm working at making an affordable game at a good price. His response was "Interesting can you bring the game to NYC Pinball Champs." Here 6 months later he's mocking me for doing business with all these famous bands he enjoys. Claims I'm stupid. and then insults people who buy pinball accessories on a pinball website for hardcore pinball fans. Sorry everyone had to waste the time listening to the convo between myself and him but yea I said all about all I can on this topic, as best I can, and I'll keep moving forward.

I'm here to discuss the topic of pricing in a professional manner. If you aren't interested and don't enjoy it then don't entertain it. If you are actually serious in your question:

""Good business" is making the highest profit possible."
"What the fuck are you blathering about?!"
"If Stern wants to charge idiots ."
"What’s it like running your little corner store in the 1800s?"
"You remind me of people who used to come to the bar"
"You are extremely committed to guestimating costs without knowledge"
"Christ will this gasbag please take a day off?"
"The rest of your pointless and endless word salads"

I don't know man. Ain't no point in continuing the conversation. I gave my opinions based on stuff I know.