New York, NY
One thing can't be denied - we all love talking about pinball pricing.
Wouldn't it be nice if, like the NFL Raiders, this forever wandering topic could find a forever home?
Let this be it!
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Quoted from phil-lee:March 30 2021. At this time (imo) prices on used SS machines are ridiculous, to the point of scaring off long-time Buyers and inhibiting new Collectors from purchases.
Have heard several people say "I'm out until sanity returns".
There will always be the well-heeled who buy NIB no questions asked.
Quality concerns are cutting in to the not so rich Collector purchases, along with rapidly rising prices.
There is a Younger Buyer showing up who will pay inflated prices on used machines, many attribute this to "Lack of education in the Pinball Market"
There's till decent-priced old projects to be had.
All the new people flooding the hobby don't want broken pinball machines.
If ever a thread deserved a sticky it's this one.
1 month later
Quoted from DanQverymuch:That's all well and good, but I'm saving up for the forthcoming cratering of pinball popularity, and the resultant price decreases on used games, which will be brought on, however gradually, by the demographically obvious aging (and subsequent dying) of the population, and in the shorter term by the resumption of things to do outside one's own residence as Covid subsides.
If nothing else, they certainly can't expect the recent growth in the hobby and in sales to continue unabated. All along, there were only so many people attracted to pinball for actually playing it in the first place.
You young whippersnappers no doubt think pinball is becoming more popular than ever. Ha! When I was young, pinballs were everywhere. Convenience stores, five and dimes, mom and pops, every single bar... You couldn't swing a dead cat without tilting one.
Yes, I'm being somewhat facetious, but does anyone care to explain how what I said is wrong in any way? And as soon as all those rich collectors who can't even play well realize what's happening, future posts will be all "whoa, a bubble actually popped for once."
There, if that doesn't get this thread rolling, nothing will.
I admire you effort, but it really does seem like people want to discuss pinball pricing everywhere but here, all the time.
Pinball: It's kinda like baseball cards!
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/05/13/target-pokemon-baseball-cards/
‘Collectibles versus commodities’: As Target halts sales of trading cards, collectors reckon with fast-changing hobby
The retailer is pulling cards ‘out of an abundance of caution’ after a parking lot dispute in Wisconsin turned violent
The pandemic has caused a surge of interest in trading cards, and Target announced Thursday it will no longer sell the cards in its stores.
Target says it’s done with trading cards — at least for the time being — after a dispute outside one of its Milwaukee-area stores escalated into violence and multiple arrests.
A spokesman for the retail giant said in a statement that it will stop selling MLB, NFL, NBA and Pokémon cards in stores on Friday “out of an abundance of caution,” but that they’ll still be available online.
The company declined further comment.
The baseball card industry — a blanket term for all trading cards, including popular game and collection brands Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh — has exploded during the pandemic, according to aficionados, as people reengage with old habits, and many face financial pressures. “Grading” companies, or firms that appraise a card’s value, have been inundated with submissions from new and existing collectors resulting in backlogs of millions of items.
Demand at retail establishments, especially big-box stores, has swelled, collectors say, as enterprising card “flippers” descend on stores, purchase their inventories and resell them at sometimes four or five times their retail price online, where “The Hobby,” as collectors affectionately call it, has been sequestered during the coronavirus crisis.
But collectors say it was getting harder to come by new cards at big-box stores even before the pandemic because flippers are notorious for scouting out stores’ restocking schedules and parking themselves in front of store entrances early in the morning to buy up inventories.
Baseball card collectors suspected rampant fraud in their hobby. Now the FBI is investigating.
It has led to a surge in valuations for cards of all types, with some Pokémon cards quadrupling in value in the past year. One collector told The Washington Post he has sold baseball cards in recent months once worth $50 each for upward of $500. It’s also ignited fierce competition between flippers angling for “hits,” or the most valuable cards.
The new entrants have divided the hobby squarely into two camps: Traditionalists who buy and sell cards as a pastime; and new-school collectors who trade cards as they would investments, looking to short the market and take advantage of the space’s volatility. The trend has repeated itself in other collectible markets through the pandemic, including comic books, coins and stamps.
“It’s collectibles versus commodities. That’s what we’re facing right now,” said one collector, who goes by the name Kyle and runs the “Wax Museum” basketball card podcast. Like many collectors, he prefers to shield his identity to avoid online harassment from other collectors. “That’s been the new wave during the pandemic. There’s a lot of nostalgia with cards, but people see the sales. They think they like the cards — maybe they have a past connection to them — but they really see the money. It’s more interesting than the stock market,” he said.
“It’s probably easier to project a player that’s going to get better than analyze tech start-ups.”
Even sports cards from the 1980s through early 1990s — called the “junk wax era” of cards because manufacturers oversaturated the market, leaving the items virtually worthless — have found a new audience.
The rise in demand, and values, have fed vicious growth in the industry. Serial New York investor Nat Turner and New York Mets owner Steve Cohen purchased Collectors Universe, which runs the industry’s largest grading company, for $700 million in November and took the company private. In March, the company PSA doubled its prices for grading submissions.
SGC, another major grading firm, tripled its prices in April to keep from being overwhelmed with submissions, the company’s president, Peter Steinberg, said in an interview. The company lowered its prices again on Sunday.
“In traditional industries, the hard part is getting customers to want to try your service,” Steinberg said. “This is a very unique time in this industry because it’s actually more difficult to hold the cards back than it is to take them in.”
The surge in interest has renewed connoisseurs’ concerns about fraud, which is rampant in the hobby. New collectors make for easy marks for so-called doctors, who illicitly alter cards to improve their appearance and resubmit them to grading companies in hopes of higher appraisals. Rising prices have only increased incentives for such activity, and doctoring scandals within the hobby have led to high-profile prosecutions and federal criminal investigations.
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The card-collecting community is generally self-policing and reliant on retail establishments, grading companies, cards shows and e-commerce to all run efficiently to keep supply and demand stable, and out suspected doctors. But with so many new hobbyists and new industry entrants intent on flipping cards for quick profits, many of the industry’s traditional gatekeepers have been sidelined.
The incident at Target — though what specifically set off the altercation or what type of cards were involved are unclear — raises new concerns, collectors say, that parts of the hobby could spin out of control.
According to a report on May 7 in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, a disagreement over trading cards led to a parking lot scuffle. The 35-year-old victim, who had a permit to carry a concealed firearm, brandished his weapon but did not fire, the report said. Four men were later arrested on battery and other charges, police said.
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The case was referred to the Waukesha County district attorney’s office, which did not respond Thursday to a request for comment.
“I think it’s gone past the point where some of the collectors and more experienced people can police it,” Kyle, from the “Wax Museum” podcast, said.
PSA announced in April that it would not accept new grading submissions until it sorted through its backlog, which president Steve Sloan said it expected to complete by the end of May. Earlier this month, it also purchased software company Genamint, which uses artificial intelligence to grade cards and assign each a “card fingerprint,” which hobbyists hope will be a deterrent to illicit alterations.
“The sheer volume of orders that PSA received in early March has fundamentally changed our ability to service the hobby,” Sloan wrote to customers in April. “The reality is that we recently received more cards in three days than we did during the previous three months. Even after the surge, submissions continue at never-before-seen levels.”
Quoted from wolverinetuner:Now we have it, the cardgument! That was heavy, Levi (rhyme completely intended). That post wins the “longest post in this thread” award, hopefully never to be topped. At least there were paragraph breaks.
Washington Post has a paywall...just trying to help out!
The comments section is hilarious...replace "cards" with "pinball" and you'd think it was a pinside thread.
3 weeks later
Quoted from RobertWinter:I don't think it has shown any indications of slowing. I'm amazed at the prices people are asking and getting. I'm just glad I'm no longer buying many pins...
Hey everybody the first guy to get 5 digits for an Elvira game is amazed how expensive pins are!
I keed I keed...
Quoted from Rarehero:It didn’t happen during the last crash. People with money & things like pin collections tend to not liquidate when the economy suffers. Only thing that tanks pin prices is tons of people liquidating at once & lack of buyers. Don’t see that happening. Maybe a small dip or a back off from some of the crazytown prices ($38k POTC) ...but general values of proven desirable games will generally hold.
Exactly. I've pointed this out many times; you'll never find a group of people more stubborn than pinball people. There are few things worse to a pinball owner than selling a game for less than they paid for it.
If there's another recession, they'll just do what they did last time: hold on to their shit. A major sell off will happen only if there's a legit depression/financial collapse, and in that case, we'll all have much bigger worries than our pinball collections.
Pinball prices have risen/held steadily over the past 20 years. There's no reason to think that's gonna change any time soon, regardless of the hopes and prayers from those who want to grab Scared Stiffs at $2000. It's just not going to happen, and if it does, well good luck. You're main priority at that time will probably be holding off the armed hordes trying to pillage your food supply not picking up a Robocop for 500 bucks.
Pinball bubble/pricing threads are always borne out of the desperate hopes that suddenly games will be cheap and you can snap them up. Well, there's literally thousands of people with the same desperate hopes, which is exactly why it will never happen. You expect all those people to suddenly go desperately broke and/or completely lose interest in pinball at the same time, while neither of these things happen to you?
Not seeing it.
Why are pinball people so stubborn about this stuff? Why would many of us rather lose our house than sell a pinball machine for $7 less than we paid for it?
This seems to be one of most self-sustaining hobbies someone can take part in.
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:I just sold/traded my 23rd pin in my 3ish years in the hobby (I trade pins alot). Today was my 5th first time pinball buyer sale. By my back of the envelope that would imply that 25% of pin buyers are buying their first pin. There are definitely more people coming into the pin than leaving it, and this will only cause the price of pins to rise.
You didn’t hear dude? It’s the summer!!
Pinball sales always slow to a crawl in the summer and prices plummet! Except they don’t that’s kinda something people made up 20 years ago and it’s a myth that persists.
Quoted from Bublehead:End of summer for pin price drops historically...
This isn’t actually true, At least this century. Just some old Wives tale.
2 weeks later
There ya have it folks, the cure for the pinball pricing blues is the shittiest thing on earth:
Video pinball!
Problem solved.
It’s a dumb analogy anyway.
Video pinball is closer to watching someone ELSE jerk off.
On TV.
While you press a couple buttons.
1 week later
I would never call a game I’m selling restored but then I never call it anything beyond “HUO” or “as-is.”
The number of ridiculous “condition options” in for sale ads here is dizzying.
1 week later
Quoted from Palmer:I always seem to get a handful of these offers whenever I test the trade waters with a game. It really does feel like people are trying to increase the value of their collection by offering lopsided trades. And I agree that it is done in a a predatory fashion. Case in point, I was offered a Star Wars Comic Pro for my almost brand new GnR SE. I told him he needed to add 2k on top of it. He came back at 1k. I said no thanks. Later on I officially listed it on Pinside. He contacted me again with the same straight trade offer (no cash). He didn't even remember that we messaged back and forth a couple of weeks prior. The guy was like a bad trade offer bot. Added him to my list of people I won't do business with.
I have a hard time equating stupid trade offers to "predatory behavior." Anybody who owns an expensive pinball machine is gonna have an idea of what it's worth, and realize that probably they shouldn't be trading their mint IJ for two Flash projects and a pinbot that needs a cabinet repaint.
Fending off dumb trade requests is just the cost of doing business in this hobby. Doesn't make those offering them "predators" just cluelessly hopeful.
Quoted from Kkoss24:The decade old NIB priced thousands over the going rate is a head scratcher .I understand some have $ to burn but your going to open it ,put a few hundred or thousand plays on it and at that point it’s worth what the other HUO’s are worth .Never understood this .
Well when it comes to decades old games, HUO are extremely rare so that comparison doesn't really ring true. Where are you gonna find a genuine HUO Black Knight? You ain't! That's why those time capsule NIB Black Knights that dude in Canada was selling years ago went for such big money.
Games like TSPP, where there are hundreds of HUOs around, you have more of a point, but even then not hard to see why NIB would command a premium. There's just something about brand spanking new.
Quoted from Kkoss24:That makes sense put that way .How was the 90s in this hobby ? Was there anywhere near the home collectors there is today ?
No, it was just a novelty and a very tiny niche community, I think the only pinball machine I ever saw in a home when I was a kid as an old EM in a friend's basement, and later as a teenager when my "cool friend's" dad bought a High Speed (and later an F14) to go in their home bar. HUO games from that time are EXTREMELY rare...most of the ones I know about were either owned by the designers, won at tournaments, or bought at "blowout prices" by hobbyists when distributors were stuck with them (IE: $1700 CVs and NGGs).
And of course my Monster Bash which I'd be happy to sell you for $20,000!
The HUO explosion didn't really kick off until the early 2000s. I think the first "unboxing photos" I ever saw was of a Stern Monopoly.
Yeah, if I'm ripping off a little old lady, I'm just go whole hog and do it the right way.
What's the point in leaving some of my profits on the table just to make myself feel a little better?
Besides, it's super easy to rationalize this shit. When I was taking a HUO Spider Man out of a lady's house for $2,500 because her kids were gone and she wanted the room in her basement back I didn't hesitate. She was more than happy to get the cash, and I was doing her a favor by not doing the ole nitpick routine and trying to talk her down on site, and by providing a quick, easy, and professional game extraction that was fast and clean, didn't damage her house etc.
The last thing I was thinking was to talk her into accepting another $500 so I could sleep 8 percent better at night. What's the point?
As long as all parties are happy with the deal I really don't see a problem.
Quoted from Bublehead:That is the point. Karma is a bitch and taking advantage of someone is bad form. You do you Crazy, but I sleep just fine at night because I don't carry my guilt around in a 10 pound sack.
Which is why you are still willing to rip an old lady off by buying a Whitewater that's worth $6K for $3k. Guilt free!
You do you!
(man I wish people would stop saying that, it sounds fucking moronic. And just when "just sayin'" seemed to be going away!)
Quoted from Bublehead:Excuse me if my subjective evaluation of an imaginary WW was that it was only worth $4k. But we are getting off the real topic that I would have given her an extra grand and you would have just screwed her over and walked away with it at $2k and been fine with it.
Like I said, you go right on being an ass because you do that so well, or put simply- you do you.
And you just keep making pathetic dad jokes that nobody laughs at while at the same time pretending your shit don't stink because you are only willing to rip off little old ladies 50 percent rather than 100 percent.
U do U!
Quoted from Bublehead:And once again I live rent free in Crazy Levi's head... I really enjoy the furnishings by the way... you got an interesting feng shui going on in here...
I love how you respond to my every post, whine about me constantly, just got so annoyed you lost your cool and called me "an ass," and NEVER let me get the last word in...and somehow you think you live rent free in my head.
That's not how it works bro!
You see..it is I who am living rent free in YOUR head!
BOOM!
Quoted from Bonbon:So what are some good resources to find out the fair price for a vintage machine? Clearly from this thread you cannot trust what someone tells you, but some of these old machines do not have a lot of sales history.
Price guides are outdated and obsolete.
Your best bet is to simply pay close attention to the market here and come up with your own guidelines.
Asking advice here from the general community is still a good idea.
Asking a guy trying to buy a game from you is probably a bad idea.
Quoted from DudeRegular:Additional piece here, you can't even go off what pinside "suggests" when you look at a game's page. That is outdated. You need to look at the market listings and archived listings.
I’m so fuckin sick of people trying to buy games from me and quoting “pinside price suggestions” to me.
It happened to me recently when someone on Craigslist offered me $1200 for a Breakshot.
I just tell them, great, go buy it on pinside!
Quoted from Bonbon:Thanks. The prices I hear are all over the place. I am not sure if it is because the market is unstable right now or what. I am just trying to find a realistic value. I have had the machine since 1975, it is from 1970, so it is not as slick as the new ones which I know is more popular/valuable
Well tell us what machine it is and offer up some
Pictures and we’ll be happy to give our opinions. Since it likely isn’t a super sought after game I would think you’ll get nothing but honest answers here (ie: no vultures hoping they can mislead you and get it cheap)
Having nothing to go on but the year, I’ll say, generally, an as-is mechanical game of that era that probably needs a shop out and various work is probably worth around $200-800 these days. But again title / condition / location affects everything.
Thanks for participating in the Let’s Talk Pinball Pricing thread!!
It looks to be in nice shape and well maintained for a game in a civillian's collection for 46 years. Not the most sought after title and the pointy people artwork is love it or hate it.
I'd back off my previous estimate as it's not some junky basement game, and say it's probably worth $500-$1000 (on a very good day!).
If it were mine and I wanted to get rid of it I'd probably list it at $1100 on FB, CL, and here and see if I get any interest. WOuld def expect some negotiating to happen at that price. The wild card is always that one guy out there who played Aces and Kings every day one summer at a store or arcade when he was a kid and has super fond memories of the game and is eager to buy that particular title. It happens!
Quoted from the9gman:I agree with you totally.....it seems to be the problem with this country, case in point Jeff Bezos riding his giant penis into space on the backs of Amazon employees that he treats like crap
It's ok, he thanked them in his historic acceptance speech!
1 week later
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:Lesson learned. I'll be more realistic on pricing next time. It's in a happy new home as someone else's first e.m.
It’s always a buyers market at Allentown for EMs. I think the last game I bought there was a $400 Williams Toledo at the end of the show. Really fought off the hordes on that one!!
4 weeks later
Quoted from wolverinetuner:As a general matter, what do you think the ethical standard should be in terms of raising a posted price for a pin after receiving interest when originally posted at a certain price?
I just don't really care. It's pointless to get upset when a civilian realizes they underpriced a game; they aren't part of "the hobby," just someone with a game to sell, and for most of them it's going to be tough to turn down all that extra money in the name of your "ethics."
To the potential buyers who whine about someone not "being good for their word," well, where's your ethical behavior buying a game well under market and taking advantage of a civilian?
You just can't let this stuff get to you. I've lucked out numerous times on good deals, and I've lost some rather than get into an 11th hour bidding war. Generally, I do a good job at this; I make a fair (if often under market) offer , and point out that if they go with me, they'll get someone who isn't going to show up and renegotiate, who knows what the F they are doing and won't damage their house removing the game, and will be in and out of there in 30 minutes. And, I'm happy to point out what may be in store for them if they deal with someone else; nitpicking, last-minute "renegotiating," scuffed walls, no shows, etc.
For a lot of people, dealing with a pro is worth it.
This is well trod ground at this point, we've been over it a million times. Make an offer you are happy with, and if accepted, get the fuck over the as soon as you can and make it happen. I'd never pay someone "three times" what we agreed upon, unless it was still a very good deal for me. But whatever works for you, as long as you are happy with it.
And generally, making a "craigslist deal" with someone who isn't at least close to local is probably a mistake. The longer you drive, the bigger the fall you set yourself up for. Remember, craigslist isn't Wal-Mart, it's a flea market. And there's no friends and few rules at a flea market.
Quoted from Bublehead:Business Law 101. If something is offered at a public posted price, and somebody accepts the offer, the seller is required BY LAW to honor the price.
Well, let's challenge Business Law 101.
I am selling my original Attack From Mars for $5.
Quoted from Bublehead:People can laugh, but I didn't write the laws... violate them at your own risk and peril. I honor my prices both offered and accepted.
I'm just trying to figure out what the "Business Law 101" remedy is when someone on Craigslist puts up a Pinbot for $1000 and then replies to me that they've had "a ton of interest!" and now they want $2500. Do I sue? Call the police?
Quoted from wolverinetuner:Generally there needs to be “consideration” (something given up) by the buyer before a binding contract is formed. That’s what my Contracts professor in Law School taught me.
That must have been in "Business Law 102."
Quoted from Bublehead:Call your lawyer, he needs a good laugh. Being right within the law and getting actual justice are not the same thing.
Well, that's certainly something we can agree upon!
Quoted from Elvishasleft:Well there is a reason this person is teaching instead of ya know... running an actual business.
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:Article on the collectible market exploding in general for a variety of reasons.
https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-09-03/collectible-prices-skyrocket-to-the-dismay-of-hobbyists
NEW YORK (AP) — Americans have become obsessed with collectibles, bidding up prices for trading cards, video games and other mementos of their youth. The frenzy has brought small fortunes to some, but a deep frustration for those who still love to play games or trade cards as a hobby. Among the items most sought after — and even fought over — are the relics of millennials’ childhoods. These include copies of trading cards such as Pokemon’s Charizard and Magic: The Gathering’s Black Lotus as well as Nintendo’s Super Mario Bros. game cartridges. Some cards are selling for hundreds of thousands of dollars and an unopened Super Mario game recently sold for an astonishing $2 million.
This is more than a case of opportunistic collectors looking to cash in on a burst of nostalgia triggered by the pandemic. Everyone seemingly is angling for a piece of the pie.
The corporations who own franchises such as Pokemon are rolling out new editions as quickly as they can print them; internet personalities are hawking the products and raking in advertising money; companies that tell collectors how much their possessions are worth are doing unprecedented businesses — and in at least one case getting financial backing from a prominent private equity firm looking to get in on the action.
But while some collectors and investors see dollar signs, others complain about the breakdown of their tight-knit communities. Players looking to play in-person again after the pandemic are unable to find the game pieces they want; if the pieces are available, prices have gone up astronomically. Critics of rising prices have become targets of harassment by those who now consider trading cards, comics and video games no different than a stock portfolio.
“Prices are going up, and access is going down,” said Brian Lewis, who operates a YouTube channel under the name Tolarian Community College.
The collectibles frenzy has been fueled partly by a self-fulfilling cycle of YouTube personalities driving hype around collecting and the rising prices of collectibles. This can lead to big paydays as advertisers notice the frenzy stirred up among the influencer's dedicated followers.
With more than 23 million subscribers, Logan Paul made several videos where he simply opens up boxes of vintage Pokemon cards, hyping the prices he’d paid and bringing in millions of views. Australian YouTube personality Michael Anderson, who goes by the moniker UnlistedLeaf, has garnered millions of views doing similar videos.
“It may be a burgeoning industry, but this is still big business. Brands want to reach these audiences,” said Justin Kline, co-founder of Markerly, an influencer marketing agency. Based on standard industry metrics, he estimates Anderson earns upward to $50,000 in advertising revenue doing unboxing videos, while Logan Paul may earn six figures per video.
The hype has sent collectors scrambling to find out if their Pikachu, Charizard, Mox Emerald or Ancestral Recall cards might be worth a fortune. To do so, they turn to grading services, which have been flooded with orders.
The grading service Beckett’s has effectively stopped accepting any cards to grade unless the customer is willing to pay $250 per card for its ultra-fast turnaround service typically reserved for the costliest collectibles. The turnaround time for basic grading services is more than a year, the company says.
In response to record demand, companies are releasing new versions of the games, including premium products that command higher prices. Whether the momentum is sustainable, at least when to comes to prices, is unknown. Other fads like Beanie Babies or Pogs blew up in the '90s only to crater, leaving most collectors holding worthless junk. Pokemon and Magic have been around for decades, and have seen surges of interest before.
In the meantime, auction companies and grading companies are making fortunes riding the current speculative frenzy.
Based in Portland, Brian Lewis produces several videos a week under the nickname “The Professor,” in hopes of teaching new and existing players about his favorite hobby, Magic: The Gathering. With more than 600,000 subscribers, he also comments on the state of the game, particularly the issue of rising prices, both on the secondary market (cards purchased from shops) as well as the prices companies are charging for products like Magic.
“I worry deeply that these rising prices will have an impact on the average person’s access to the game,” he said. “There’s a growing class of investors in Magic, and I think it’s not having a positive impact on the game.”
But the frenzy goes beyond trading cards. The U.S. Mint released a 100th Anniversary collection of the Morgan silver dollar, considered by coin collectors to be one of the most beautiful designs ever made, early this summer. The products sold out in minutes.
Three weeks ago, an unopened copy of Super Mario Bros. for the Nintendo Entertainment System sold for $2 million, making it the most expensive video game sold. Only a few weeks earlier, a copy of Super Mario 64 sold for a then-record $1.6 million. An unopened copy of Nintendo's Legend of Zelda from 1987 sold for $870,000 in early July.
Some members of the video game collecting community have questioned whether the prices paid have been exaggerated by the involvement of third parties like Rally, which sells “shares” in collectibles.
Meanwhile, the trading card community is seeing its own lofty prices as players scramble to find coveted pieces for their collection.
A mint condition Black Lotus from Magic: The Gathering's first set known as Alpha, sold in January for more than $510,000. That price is double what a card in similar condition sold for six months before in July 2020.
Austin Deceder, 25, primarily buys and sells cards on Facebook and Twitter as a middleman between players wanting to get out of their games and new players. Based in Kanas City, he now travels the country buying collections as his full-time job, having to balance his enjoyment of the game with now being involved financially.
Deceder had a used Black Lotus card that he says he sold for $7,000 in September 2020. "Here we are now and the price on that same card has doubled.”
It’s not just the ultra-rare cards seeing inflation. Take the widely available Magic: The Gathering card named “Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer.” The card, depicting a bespectacled monkey sitting on a hoard of treasure, was $30 earlier this summer. The card now sells for closer to $90, Deceder says, as game stores have reopened after the pandemic.
“Now that people can play in person, card prices are moving up again," he said.
Not everyone is happy, however. Some enthusiasts say the frenzy has brought out the worst in fans and speculators. Nowhere is this more evident than among collectors of Pokemon cards, with its motto “Gotta Catch ’Em All!”
The frenzy in Pokemon began late last year when Logan Paul did his first unboxing videos, which only led other content creators to make similar videos and collectors to bid up prices on cards new and vintage, said Lee Steinfeld, 34, a long-time collector in Dallas who does videos, including unboxings, under the name Leonhart.
“That's when things went super crazy,” he said.
Since then, boxes of Pokemon trading cards have been routinely sold out at hobbyist shops and big-box retail stores. Fistfights have broken out, requiring chains like Target to restrict the number of packs an individual customer can purchase. The Pokemon Company says it is trying to print as many cards as possible to keep up.
“Pretty much the entire Pokemon community has deteriorated,” said Shelbie, a creator of Pokémon videos under the name Frosted Caribou on YouTube.
While most of Shelbie’s content features unboxings or discussions about upcoming products, one of her most popular uploads was an hour-long video focused on the problems in the Pokemon collecting community since the frenzy began last year. Shelbie, who declined to give a last name to avoid being a target of harassment, said some harassment in the past has come from some of the community’s biggest collectors, particularly when she has talked about prices.
Later this year, Pokemon will be releasing a set to celebrate its 25th anniversary. While typically an anniversary set would garner interest from any collector, this time Shelbie said she's hesitant.
“The set is going to be amazing. It's also going to be impossible to get. It's going to be awful actually,” she said.
But the surge of interest has been good for the corporations and Wall Street.
Hasbro’s Wizards of the Coast division makes the tabletop role-playing game “Dungeons & Dragons” as well as Magic: The Gathering. Wizards reported second-quarter revenue of $406 million, more than double year-ago revenue. Hasbro executives told investors in July they would soon be raising product prices. Wizards has introduced premium packs of cards with harder-to-find game pieces that sell for four to five times more than a regular packs.
Wall Street has also ridden the wave of interest. Private equity giant Blackstone purchased a majority stake in Certified Collectibles Group, a company that grades collectibles like trading cards, in July for $500 million. The company has doubled its employee count since last year and is buying another 30,000 square feet of office space, President Max Spiegel said.
Whether that's good for the players who have long participated in these hobbies is unknown. Long-time collectors likely stand to make money in the future, but those who recently entered these communities may be purchasing overpriced cards hyped by those who stand to benefit the most, community leaders said. It's not unlike the stock market craze that drove prices of GameStop and other “meme” stocks higher earlier this year.
“There’s now a whole subculture who are using Pokemon as a stock market. I don't know how those people can look at the community and say this is healthy,” Shelbie said.
Yeah I've read this stuff too.
The funny thing is, if you compare pinball to all this junk, it's really not even in the same stratosphere. Pinball machines - even at the asking prices that cause daily freakouts here - are relatively inexpensive for what you get; a commercial asset that will have inherent value as long as bars and arcades exist in any form. In my mind it's a lot different than paying $5,000 for a piece of cardboard.
I really don't get all the constant whining. SO you can't afford a $20K POTC? There's plenty of pinball machines around for between $1000-6000 and it seems like there always will be. I don't find pinball prices to be particularly outrageous; most of the outrage simply seems to because the fact that prices have risen somewhat over the past 5-10 years, and this demographic doesn't exactly embrace change.
1 week later
3 weeks later
Quoted from wolverinetuner:For posterity, as of October 2021, MSRP for Stern’s latest pin, Godzilla, is as follows:
Pro $6,899
Premium $8,999
Limited Edition (which is sold out) $10,499
Also for the record, these price increases were deemed to be outrageous, and the bubble suddenly burst, with people refusing to pay them and taking a stand for all that is good and right!!!
(Psyche!!!! They still sold like hot cakes!!)
2 months later
Quoted from wolverinetuner:1990s pins now have price tags that I never would have thought possible not long ago, and they’re selling. EMs have increased in price, but I don’t think by close to the percentage of other pins. Just a few years ago another pinhead told me in general, I assume for pins in decent shape, he expected to pay something like $500-$1,000 for an EM and $1,500-$3,000 for a SS. (At the time NIB pins were around $5,000 to $10,000, depending on which version.) All that is clearly out the window now. What does everyone realistically expect to pay now for pins?
All prices are nice, working, “shopped”, average titles nothing super crazy sought after
Em - $800-2000
SS - $1200-3000
DMD - $3000-12000
LCD - $5000-12000
Good luck boyos !
2 months later
An amusing blast from the past...
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/when-will-the-insane-pricing-end
1 week later
Quoted from PanzerFreak:Kaneda is reporting that Stern will be raising prices again in April by $400. I guess that means premiums will now be $9k+, crazy.
I wouldn't be surprised if the next JJP CE is $14k - $15k and LE's $11,500 - $12k.
Great. Can't wait for the avalanche of whiny threads about it.
F U Stern and your price increases II?
I'd just like to point out that all of us are raising prices far more and faster than Stern or anybody else ever has.
2 weeks later
Quoted from wolverinetuner:A current thread on a for-sale machine produced a suggestion that Pinside implement a system to flag ads where pins are listed at a price well-above average. My initial reaction is that it wouldn’t be doable. What do you think?
It's an absolutely terrible idea and it's dumb. It's also stupid.
I wish people would stop suggesting this.
And you know what's way more annoying to me than people posting ridiculous price ads? People trying to beat me up on price by citing "pinside suggested values," which are WAY too low. I had a Breakshot on sale on Craigslist for a perfectly reasonable $2100, and someone came at me with "Pinside values say it should be $1300 blah blah blah."
There's no way to keep up with this stuff. You can't base any ridiculous guidelines on "pinside values" which are always wildly out of date. There's no way for it to make any sense. And it's ridiculous to expect Pinside to police ad prices to this degree.
And not sure if folks realize this or not, but Pinside - in theory anyway - benefits from sales here. Why do they want to discourage people from posting ads?
1 month later
Quoted from MtnFrost:No, because there is always a noob out there who can skew the value. I'm asking what others here think.
Why would a “noob” be after a cosmic princess? That’s not a game someone played in college and they suddenly want for their game room, it’s a collector game.
It’s a super rare game in nice shape, of course that price is reasonable.
Quoted from MtnFrost:Using the term generically to incorporate any one single individual who overpays by a large margin. It's not meant to be taken literally.
That aside, ok, thanks. Everyone agree it's reasonable and in line with what you value the pin at?
Yes. Everyone agrees.
Quoted from MtnFrost:With a sharpie? Wow.
It was probably just some noob who bought that!
2 months later
Quoted from wolverinetuner:Since discussion in the above-noted thread includes a reference to classic cars, let me throw out a question I think deserves a basic discussion here:
Is a “cargument” ever a valid analogy when discussing pinball pricing?
It seems to be made all the time and immediately opposed whenever made.
No. Never.
Cars and pinball machines couldn’t really be any more different. There is almost nothing about pinball machines- purpose, industry, production, marketing, shipping, resale etc etc - that has anything to do with cars.
It’s just the laziest thing on earth to compare things to pinball and people lack the imagination to even attempt any analogy without cars, even though they are almost never sound comparisons.
It’s not just pinball and cars. It’s everything. And cars.
Quoted from CryHavoc:I'm grateful to all the diligent Pinsiders who spend their time incessantly crawling for these threads and mocking them. As we all know (because they themselves told us so) this is the ONLY way to handle these threads. Because of their sacrifice, we NEVER see any other pricing threads anymore thanks to these truly selfless heroes.
It's such a mystery why a master thread might fail when the very people crying about too many pricing threads come into a dedicated one and STILL shit all over it. Such a wild, crazy mystery. Oh well some mysteries can never be solved, so back to unmoderated shitposting that has solved the glut of threads once and for all.
The answers you seek are all here, in the original Master Pinball Pricing thread. What you seek has been before you this entire time, hiding in plain sight!
There's literally 10 pages of gold here for you to sift through, which, when considered, will unlock all of the mysteries of pinball pricing.
Why does an Addams Family cost more than a Big Ben? When will the bubble burst? When will I be able to score a Monster Bash for the price of a second-hand VCR?
It's all in here. Perhaps you should do more reading and less complaining!
Quoted from arcyallen:There's always going to be similarities and differences with any two markets. Focusing on the differences doesn't negate the similarities. Supply and demand, and buyer psychology would be two examples of things that effect those two markets similarly.
If supply is low (like it has been), prices will be higher. If people are afraid that if they don't buy now they may miss out (like it has been), prices will be higher.
When supply catches up to demand, it'd be silly to say "prices never go down". We're already seeing it with lower used and NIB pins. And we're seeing it with lower used car prices. There's lots of info to be gleaned from looking outside the narrow world of the pin market!
You don't find the comparison to be a little fucking lazy, and in almost all cases, a total fallacy?
EVERYBODY compares EVERYTHING to cars. Why do they do this?
What does a pinball machine have in common with a car, besides the fact that you can buy or sell one and that there is some metal and plastic in both?
Quoted from RyanStl:Probably because boh are big ticket items, collectible, and can be operated. The second hand buying process is similar and both have dealers for new.
A lot of the comparisons are valid. It just appears you have a disdain for cars, and that makes sense because you are a New Yorker that doesn't own one. Most of the rest of the country can relate.
Literally none of the comparisons are valid.
"Pinball collecting is just like classic cars."
No it fucking isn't!
Quoted from The_Pump_House:Because they are subject to the same supply and demand market forces?
Because they sometimes are limited production, collectible and highly sought after?
But, most importantly, because sometimes you can use a car to pick up a pinball machine.
I would disagree with your points. Cars are NOT subject to the same supply and demand market. For most people, cars are a necessity. They literally need one to live any kind of complete life. This goes for most of you folks who don't live somewhere like NYC, which is about 97 percent of you. I think most of us would agree pinball machines are a toy, luxury item, that nobody really needs. You don't need a pinball machine to go to work. You don't need one to go shopping, or to drop off the kids. You don't need one at all.
For the "collectible car" market, I'd also posit there are very few similarities, beyond the nebulous idea that both are "collectible." WIthout exception, I'd say even the most expensive pinball machine isn't going to go near what the average car goes for. In addition, cars are much larger, requiring more space to store and to ship. I'd say the demographics of classic car collecting, besides being overwhelmingly white, are much different. Much older.
You don't need a garage or yard or a driveway or a spot on the street to store a pinball machine. You just need a little bit of space in your house or apartment. $600 can get you a working pinball machine, I'm no car expert, but I don't think you can get a similar classic car in that neighborhood.
Pinball machines are primarily commercial devices. I do not think that's true with cars. Every single pinball machine has this - you can set it up to take money, and stick it in a location, and it will earn. If you did that with a car, all it would do is depreciate.
Just spitballing here, but I simply don't see the parallels between cars and pinball machines. Beyond "its a thing you can buy and sell" but the same is true of gobstoppers.
We could argue about this all day I suppose. I mean, arguments are like cars. THey come in lots of different colors and people like different ones. Some arguments are bigger than others, and some are older than others.
But I digress...this is the master pinball pricing thread, not the master cargument thread. I suppose somebody should start one of those up?
Maybe you guys can tell me what ISN'T the same as cars? Cause I don't think I've ever seen a single thing that people won't make a cargument about.
I'm looking at my desk...I see a computer, a phone, a pair of sunglasses, a box of tissues. Pretty sure by your criteria, these are all the same as cars?
Sunglasses - subject to supply and demand, you can buy shitty ones or expensive ones
Tissues - subject to supply and demand, you can buy shitty ones or expensive ones
Magazines - they make lots of different kinds for different tastes, they are subject to market conditions
Phones - subject to supply and demand, you can buy shitty ones or expensive ones
I think even you die hard cargumenters would agree you've cast a pretty wide net on this, no?
Quoted from Grandnational007:I'm not even sure where I'm going with this...
Me neither...but I like it!!!
I remember a time when I could post here without cry havoc following me around every day in every thread I post in and posting really boring burns.
“Shrug.”
(Why is shrug in quotes?)
3 weeks later
Quoted from arcyallen:I'll be eager to see what the "prices never go down" people will be saying at that point.
Yes, you and a 100 other people over the past 20 + years are eager to see the same thing.
1 week later
Quoted from DarthPaul:So my question is, will the value of 90's era DMD machines start to go down as more and more of the newer machines replace them in the top 100 spots?
The answer is: no.
Quoted from MtnFrost:I would love to see those who bought at Banning suffer this. Is that wrong?
I just don't think that's really in play. Most of the people who bought at Banning were relative noobs who either didn't understand the market or didn't care. Most of them probably aren't selling, or at the least didn't buy with the idea they'd make money. The majority of those buyers didn't know what those games were "worth" when they bought them, an they don't know what they are "worth" now. They just have a pinball machine they "won" at an auction.
Things certainly have slowed down a bit which I think most of us are happy to see. But anybody who thinks this is the tip of the "i'll be buying Fish Tales for 1200 bucks by the NFL playoffs!" iceberg is out of their minds.
4 weeks later
Quoted from JohnTTwo:So with the new Stern prices on Bond what effect will that have on used prices?
Pop the bubble? I don’t think so. You?
Obviously it will increase them, at least in recent games.
Why should I sell my AIQ pro for $6000 when a new one costs $7000?
Why should I sell my Zep LE for $9500 when LCD LEs now cost $14k all in?
For older games I don’t think the psychology is there for similar increases. But I don’t see why anybody would expect
Prices to fall.
3 weeks later
This economy has been steadily crashing an burning since January, 2020, according to a lot of folks here. We should all be living in caves by now!
1 month later
Quoted from MtnFrost:It seems a shame they and others don’t drop some of the toys and video, build a 4000 dollar machine and make 6000 units instead. Who the heck can spend that type of coin on a toy?
You can’t make money selling pinball machines for $4,000. No matter how many times people
Suggest it.
And if spooky did a 6,000 run of
Anything it would take about 10 years.
Quoted from MtnFrost:I think you can make a machine, using the tech today to create a 80s style game, with the kind of design and lack of toys you had back then, for a much lower price point.
This cannot be done. There is no such thing as a “much lower price point” in 2022 that will allow a pinball company to remain in business.
Quoted from MtnFrost:Do we have data on that? I don't imagine the margins are massive, but it would be interesting to see the breakdown per unit.
Yes we have data on that.
Nobody is doing it. If there was money to be made designing, building, and selling $4,000 pinball machines, it would be happening.
Quoted from MtnFrost:So you don't have data on that. The absence of proof is not proof.
Saying it can be done without any evidence is also not proof.
Talk to some people
In the industry who aren’t just making things up. They’ll tell you it can’t be done.
You aren’t the first person to dream up this fantasy that a game like Firepower or Harlem Globetrotters could be produced in 2022 and sold for $4,000. But it’s not possible.
Quoted from MtnFrost:Just to be clear, I didn't say it could be done. I asked if there was data on the costs. I just said it would be great if it were done.
Nobody here who isn’t under an NDA knows “the data,” which is why this fantasy will never die. You will never have the “profit margin” on pinball games posted here. Ever.
And even if someone risked their job or financial well being to post the exact “profit margin” per game based upon BOM, that wouldn’t factor in labor, paying all staff, research, development, Keeping the lights on at the factory, paying for the factory etc etc. none of this is cheap, and all of it gets factored into the price of a pinball machine.
If you really want know all that stuff, you’ll have to get a job in the industry. But then you’ll never be able to post about it here so what’s the point?
Quoted from MtnFrost:The point is there is a market for cheaper pins with less toys and junk. The point is it's been done, but unfortunately, with a bad layout.
The point is merely an observation that not all new pins NEED to cost so much.
Yeah, see there you go again. "I'm not saying a game can be $4,000. I'm just saying it can be! Look at Thunderbirds. It just needs a better layout!"
A game CANNOT be done that cheap. Thunderbirds was $5,000 (not $4,000) like five years ago, and it was a total piece of shit. And now the same company is selling another equally shitty game for almost twice that - $9500. I wonder if maybe they realized they couldn't actually sell pinball machines for $5,000?
Stern released its own terrible "no frills" game in 2015, Juicy Melons, for $4500. Seven years ago. They could never do that today.
A pinball machine company, in 2022, cannot design, produce, and mass manufacture a full-size, commercial pinball machine for $4,000 and stay in business.
If you believe otherwise, you are simply delusional.
Quoted from MtnFrost:You like to make things up, don't you? Never said that quote. Nor did I specifically say a number. And since it was done, well, what's the point you are trying to make? Things that happened didn't?
Thunderbirds was actually $5,000 new, not $4,000. Look it up. in 2018. So yeah, that happened. Congrats I guess?
It also had a plastic lockdown bar. Just like Stern's $5,000 offerings.
Seems like $5,000 - from the biggest, most efficient, best-scaled manufacturer - is the bottom line for how cheap a pinball machine can be made, mass produced, and sold for a profit in 2022. And you get no coin door, a tiny screen, and a plastic lockdown bar.
They seem to have finally found the sweet spot - I believe they've sold a bunch of these things. We'll see if they continue to pursue this market.
Quoted from MtnFrost:Yeah, Thunderbirds was a total piece of shit ONLY because the layout was poor. Not that it wasn't solidly built. Not because of the price point. Merely a poor layout, and that's ALL that kept it from doing well according to those who tried it. .
Thunderbirds was a $5,000 piece of shit for MANY reasons besides it's "poor layout." The game feels like a tinkertoy. I've actually played one, I can only assume you haven't since you are touting it's build quality.
IT HAS A PLASTIC FUCKING LOCKDOWN BAR.
For a guy with all the clues and all the answers you honestly don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about.
The guy who thinks Spooky can sell 6,000 games at $4,000 and actually remain in business thinks I'm "clueless!!""
1 month later
Quoted from dboeren:If you don't listen to your customers you're going to risk a collapse.
But in this business, you also risk collapse by paying too much attention to your customers. Most of the industry suggestions we get around here are absolutely terrible.
"They should slash prices, but also improve quality and pack games with more shit" is the general consensus around here, along with "They should immediately stop doing all of the things they've done over the past 10 years that have dramatically increased profits."
Good luck taking that approach and staying in business for more than a month.
Quoted from dpadam450:I'm curious how much they are charging for some of these licenses. I'm curious what a Stern original theme would cost. I thought it was very out of touch for Gomez at Stern to state that you have to have an established IP in the interview below, yet we are seeing so many remakes of themes that were strictly pinball themes and some of those originally sold 6,000 machines at release.
Here is a very interesting interview to check out. Also some good talk about Opto spinners costing too much. A regular switch they might get for $0.10. Opto spinner cost about ~$0.50, so when you talk about Sterns material costs, we are talking about parts that cost dollars and pennies.
See, this is exactly what I'm saying, and why Stern should continue to ignore their customers.
"Stern should do unlicensed themes!"
No they shouldn't. BKSOR is as close to an unlicensed LCD they've ever made and it was Stern's worst seller, the first to get "retired." You won't see an unlicensed Stern again because nobody bought one when they had the chance.
Everybody says they want unlicensed games but they don't buy them.
If Pinside ran Stern they'd be tits up in a week.
Quoted from dpadam450:I mean, yea they should ignore trying to please all customers, because you have to just do what you want. Don't know the numbers, but is Chicago gaming not selling that well? Seems like Cactus Canyon is doing alright. I see that game and Medieval Madness popup all the time. I just guess I don't understand the claim that Pinball only IP's don't sell. This is just the info from pinside not sure how accurate and I don't know what Stern considers break-even vs financial success. Is that 10,000+ units per game? Anyone know?
Just 3 random games I chose.
Bride of Pinbot: 8,000
Haunted House 7,000
Medieval Madness 4,000
That's also just NIB sales, not how many consumers purchase a used one in which I would consider another sale, because there is demand for the IP from a secondary consumer. I think there is demand.
Why are you talking about games that were made 20-40 years ago?
In today's market, unlicensed themes don't sell. The market in 1995 compared to 2023 couldn't possibly be more different.
The remakes are an anomaly. They are old games. They'll continue to sell based on the goodwill, nostalgia, and reputation of decades past.
Spooky's recent "Haunted House" game sold about 200 units and it took forever to clear them out. Today's buyers don't want unlicensed games, they want their "dream theme." They want a theme their kids and their wife are familiar with. They want something that reminds them of that movie they liked in Jr. High School. The fact that this wasn't true decades ago has zero bearing upon today; times change.
As long as AP is around, folks will have all the opportunities they want to not buy unlicensed games despite saying they want unlicensed games.
For the big boys, I'm afraid it's gonna be license city till the end of time.
Stern and JJP have both learned their lessons with BKSOR and Dialed In.
Quoted from dpadam450:Since it's on the topic of pinball pricing, my guess is licensing 5% would be the absolute minimum I could imagine (500 per game @ 10K). Probably 25% for movies is a better guess. That's $2,500 out. Make a Stern Pro, without a license, you get a Pro game at the price of their affordable home game lineup. All these other new IP's were charging MSRP of licensed games.
Ah so now we are on to the fantasy that if they don't license games, they'll slash their prices.
That's now how it works. BKSOR cost the exact same amount of money as Star Wars. JJP did not dial back their prices when they released Dialed In, they raised them. Stern has no interest in "passing the savings" along to you, lowering their prices, or competing with their own home models.
If you want a home game, buy a home game. If you want Stern to release pro games at home prices, hey, I want to start crapping diamonds, but it's probably not gonna happen.
(Also, now that you doing an unlicensed game, where does all game's art come from, or the content for that big LCD screen on these games, or the audio? You gotta to pay someone to make all that stuff that you used to get with your license. There goes your savings... )
People always say this.
“Yeah BKSOR and dialed in were big flops. But that doesn’t prove unlicensed themes won’t sell!!”
What would prove it? Do want stern or JjP to go out of business trying to prove you right?
Probably easier for them to just keep doing licensed games and making big profits.
I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree. In the meantime, please buy AP unlicensed pins to show your support for this business model.
Not sure what the Hell you guys are going on about but I’ll add my own irrelevant thoughts:
A back to the future game designed by anybody would outsell any unlicensed Elwin game.
Quoted from NC_Pin:I’ll take that bet
I vote Elwin’s unlicensed time travel theme
would beat
Trudeau’s BTTF
Nah. People would figure out a way to rationalize it.
"hey he's paid his debt to society. I wouldn't normally buy a game designed by a sex offender...but it's my GRAIL THEME! And they got Biff to do the callouts!"
Quoted from porkcarrot:Why would toppers be sold cheaper? They are useless items that a subset of collectors are will to pay for. What possible benefit would a lower price be to the manufacturer?
"If they were cheaper, they could sell more of them!!!!"
That's generally the Pinside take, which of course doesn't really make any sense from a business perspective but you have to remember that most Pinsiders seem to want pinball companies to run themselves out of business.
I always like to bring up the Stones. yeah, Mick and company.
Back in 1989, they played 6 nights at Giants Stadium and sold them out, with tickets at $20.
Now, they are much more content to play one or two shows at the same place, with many tickets selling for several thousand dollars, and don't really give a shit if they sell them out. Makes a lot more sense, don't it?
But still, you see Pinsiders insisting Stern should sell games at $4,000 cause "they'd sell a ton more!""
Pinball is not really a volume business. It ain't toilet paper.
Quoted from dpadam450:Why would somebody offer good prices to the consumers that made them: Why would you lower your prices: Maybe to be a good dude. Squeezing every drop of money out of your customers is not necessary to maintain a business.
Just pointing out someone making toppers for $20 and selling for $700. That is honest business that you have to stick up for. Why? Because you like their games and they are fun? Can you separate that conversation for Toppers? What in your mind is justification for $700 topper. Honest question. Not about sales numbers. I wouldn't be happy to sell them that expensive. I get people will pay. Yes I believe you could sell more at a better price.
You think $700 is honest/good business/ good ethics for your consumers Levi? Is that how you feel about people you work alongside/with/ people who consume your products? I mean the thing costs $20 at best for the toppers I posted.
What the fuck are you blathering about?!
"Good business" is making the highest profit possible.
This is a fucking industry, it's not UNICEF. I really don't understand how people with jobs/businesses can become so unrealistic and brain-fogged when it comes to the pinball industry.
Hey, I bet you could do your job cheaper. I mean seriously...you couldn't spare a little bit of your salary to make your boss happier and be a "good dude?" You should march into your boss's office tomorrow and demand a pay cut, for the good of the company. It's just honesty, good ethics, and good business!
Also, Kid Rock is a fucking no-talent and anybody paying 25 bucks to see him should get their head examined. AND, his "$25 ticket tour!" was complete PR bullshit. All the good seats were auctioned off to the highest bidder - if you wanted to sit in the front, you paid the "premium" or "LE" price. And the rest of the tickets were sold for exactly what they were "worth;" 25 bucks. He didn't sell out any of those shows because his audience is extremely limited.
Quoted from dpadam450:You said you hate him and don't follow him (Kid Rock, neither do I), but yet you know everything about a video I posted that was 10 years old? I mean it's a fact. Detroit he sold his beers cheap while Bud Lights were $20.
.
I follow the industry, and I know that Kid Rock's "$25 tour" was PR bullshit. The best seats were up for auction and sold for whatever the market could bear, as I've already stated.
Why?
Cause he's not touring to make friends or be a "good dude," it's how he makes his living, feeds his kids, and pays off his ex-wives, and it's how he pays his band, his crew, and everybody else involved. He didn't leave a cent on the table for that tour, trust me.
You have zero idea what Stern's profit margins are, yet you want them to slash prices to be "ethical." As I've already asked, are you willing to take a pay cut, or charge your customers less to be a "good dude?" Couldn't you survive with 20 percent less income?
Quoted from dpadam450:Me? Absolutely..
So you are going to tell your boss you want to take a pay cut tomorrow, or tell your clients they are all getting a 20 percent discount?
Well, you got me. You have officially won this argument, and proven the strength of your convictions.
Too bad you don't run Stern, pinball machines would be way cheaper.
Quoted from dpadam450:See you lost me here. This is why I said toppers. You and I know what a piece of 1/16" or 1/8" acrylic costs. We both know what vinyl adhesive poster art costs. those are the 2 things that make up 6 toppers on that website all priced above $500.
I didn't answer this because I simply don't give a shit. Nobody needs or wants a topper. I don't need or want a topper. If Stern wants to charge idiots $5,000 for toppers, that's absolutely fine with me. I'm all for Stern making as much money as possible and continuing to make pinball machines for decades to come.
I’m just tired of seeing kid rock’s stupid face in these pricing threads. It’s like the third time this has happened!!
Kid rock is an asshole and he gouges his customers as badly as any topper selling pinball manufacturer.
Really?! $400 to see that hack?
I’ll take the $2k topper please.
EA810600-BE06-4FBD-A034-40BBC882412C (resized).pngQuoted from The_Pump_House:You are extremely committed to guestimating costs without knowledge and dictating what everyone else should charge for their work.
If he and kid rock band together to form a pinball company, life will be nothing but rainbows and unicorns.
Christ will this gasbag please take a day off?
You think pinball machines should be cheaper. We get that. The rest of your pointless and endless word salads are just tiring us all out.
I’m really upset to learn that Dave Mustaine won’t do business with me. Charlene , cancel my 2 pm, apparently the meeting is off 
Quoted from NC_Pin:Reminder that for a well-run company, BOM cost (and total cost) should never be a factor in the selling price. The selling price is what the market will allow... the total cost just tells you if you are going to earn enough margin to make it worth your time.
Clearly Kid Rock and Dave Mustaine don't know how to run a company!
Quoted from The_Pump_House:That is not what I said at all.
He has a habit of doing that.
I'm still trying to figure out when I called everybody who wants a topper stupid, or when I personally insulted the Nuclear Blast family of heavy metal bands.
Quoted from TreyBo69:Thanks. And to be clear, as I mentioned in your pin company thread, I do think you are knowledgeable, capable, and self-driven. There is value in challenging some conventional wisdom. But just like koji said, these debate points aren’t new.
I had a similar mindset when I first really got into the hobby several years ago. But eventually you start to learn the community, who’s buying stuff, etc… and then you realize a guy like Levi isn’t so crazy. Just grumpy from tilling at the windmill which is educating the newbs about the business reality of modern pinball.
And for anyone concerned, I got home safely before dark and the snow started falling too heavily. Now just got to deal with a flakey plowman…. I miss warm weather. Fuck snow
Move to New York City.
Apparently winter has been canceled this year.
Williams argosy in 2002 for $340 plus I got the seller to throw in a fresh set of rubber.
Still have it (well it’s at a friend’s house).
First digital was a High Speed off eBay later that year for $600ish.
First DMD was a jackbot (probably also in 2002) off eBay for $1000ish.
Of the hundreds of games I’ve bought the only one that could be considered NIB was a zep LE and that was out of box but not set up (still was strapped) and got at a discount.
Hey it’s fun buying and selling pinball machines. Way more fun when it doesn’t just make you furious and insane from Focusing on NIB and obsessing over prices and praying for bubble bursts. It’s supposed to be fun folks!
2 months later
All I know is people have been insisting the bubble
Will burst and prices will drop for 25 years. And they always provide the same reasons (it’s a fad, collectors will get old and die, the economy will collapse, “there’s a lotta games out there,” aliens will come and kill all pinball fans and demand will fall etc etc )
Yet here we are.
Almost seems like it’s not gonna happen, don’t it?
Quoted from Darth_Chris:With all these companies pumping new pins, all sold for top dollars because so many people want the next shiny toy how can all the used pins keep their value or increase. That's what I can't understand..
What if I told you that every day more people join the ranks of pinball buyers? It’s not a finite group of people buying games; that number seems to be going up at least as the same rate of new additional games being produced.
Starts to make more sense if you consider that as a possibility.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:I’m just tired of seeing kid rock’s stupid face in these pricing threads. It’s like the third time this has happened!!
Kid rock is an asshole and he gouges his customers as badly as any topper selling pinball manufacturer.
Really?! $400 to see that hack?
I’ll take the $2k topper please.[quoted image]
Kid rock pricing update.
May the “he charged $25 for terrible tickets once 15 years ago as a gimmick so stern should sell games for $3500” argument die forever.
These guys probably sell 9 records a year, touring’s their only source of income
I mean, I’d guess they all have jobs also.
1 week later
You are paying about a $$5000 premium for the plaque and the back story (assuming it's an HUO game in nice shape), so if it's worth it is up to you.
The CPU will likely need replacement as the batteries probably exploded 15 years ago.
Quoted from WalrusPin:More like an $8k mark up - these are going 6,500-7k right now. Hardly seems worth it, more of a cash grab. You could get a regular one, take the backglass to a Trekkie convention and get Frakes and others to sign it there. Keep a large wad in your pocket IMHO.
Assuming it’s an HUO sttng, the price would be closer to $10k than $7k
$5k markup for the plaque and Provenance.
Quoted from TheLaw:It's most likely in free pinball HUO shape.
THICK layer of grime, rotting rubbers, a rubber band or 2 hear and there.
Nah. It probably got played about 40 times over the past 30 years.
Could use a clean up I’m sure but I doubt youll find much wrong with it.
Quoted from NC_Pin:Was it stored with batteries? I suspect there is a reason why he was photographed with the machine *off*
Likely true.
Still, anybody buying this for $15K isn't likely to care that they may have to fork over another $200 for a readily available and reliable repro MPU board. It certainly wouldn't cause me to lose any sleep while I waited for the machine to arrive.
3 weeks later
Really cool find. And, again, at $15K, you really didn't pay too much of a "Frakes Premium" on a genuine HUO STTNG.
You DEFINITELY need to clip off the old battery holder and install a new one ASAP. You can then buy one of those cheap wood dowel "remote battery holder." "Cleaning" the old one really isn't enough.
This is a super easy job, even a noob can do it. You need a solder sucker, a soldering iron, solder, a new battery holder, and a remote battery holder to install. Oh and some clippers.
1 week later
Quoted from wolverinetuner:May 31, 2023:
Price bubble thread based on eBay sales data showing price for Addams Family declining in recent months.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/a-canary-in-the-price-bubble-mine-
Yeah I hear you can get one for $12k now!!!
That totally deserved its own thread!
Quoted from TheLaw:Yeah that thread is lame ass
68 has been doing a ton of trolling lately, what with that dumb thread and his "Are you still masking" query from a couple weeks ago.
Sometimes people get bored!
1 month later
So In other words: no. The games people actually want to buy aren’t going to drop in value any.
But may I interest you in a Wipeout or Last Action Hero?
3 months later
Quoted from herbertbsharp:What are the actual prices after discount?
This!
A lot of asterisks there.
Quoted from ovfdfireman:Yes, the asterisk is there for two things, one free freight promo is only with cash, check or wire only. Also notes about the sale specifics, limited time, supplies last, etc. We do live in a world where you have to have a disclaimer that coffeeuu is hot............ so we do not want anyone to misunderstand.
Fair enough.
But hey since we are being so open and free here do you have an arrangement with stern to sell $2k below MSRP? And what’s the tax situation?
Can’t imagine those Zep premiums will last long. Can’t speak for the other games.
Quoted from luckymoey:Seems like Stern is just giving one more reason not to buy NIB. .
By lowering prices $1000-2000 it seems like they are actually giving people a reason to buy NIB! At least for these titles.
Not sure it hurts future sales. Are people really not going to buy a game they want because of the off chance that in 3 years they'll be able to buy it for a $1000-2000 discount if the game doesn't sell?
Quoted from kool1:Should move some units but owners of those games likely lose also, I imagine resale drops short term anyway.
Stern doesn't care about resale prices.
And yeah Bond seems to be doing fine to me. Resale prices are up. Word of mouth is up. Not going to see that one on the discount rack any time soon.
Quoted from arcyallen:I've been expecting this for awhile, and was laughed at when I suggested it could happen. I'll double down and say it's going to happen more, yes.
You predicted Stern would blow out two 3-year old poorly-selling titles that were never well received for $1000-2000 off the latest MSRP?
Please point us to this post so we can gift you with the appropriate flowers! You deserve credit and celebration!
Quoted from SantaEatsCheese:I'm calling it now. We will see the first used Godzilla Premium sell for less than the MSRP price of a NIB stern Pro by Christmas 2024.
Not complaining.
It's a bold prediction!
If there is indeed a Godzilla Premium for sale for $6700 within 6 weeks, I'm buying it!
Oh wait you meant 60 weeks...errr...ok! When it happens we'll be sure to give you your flowers.
Quoted from jackd104:Godzilla has a much higher demand than G&R. Someone once said that a parrot who is trained to say "supply & demand" can teach you everything about economics that any doctorate of the subject could. Other games that they made a ton of, and that are good games, (TAF, TZ) still bring a high price, because of the demand.
This seems rudimentary and hardly worth stating. Maybe I misunderstand the conversation happening here.
Yeah, GnR is a super weird game to bring up in a "market is suddenly collapsing you'll see Godzilla tank in months!" treatise.
GnR has been in a price spiral for YEARS because they made a ton quickly, sold a ton quickly (thanks in no small part to hype from podcasters who now realize it blows), and everybody realized it sucked quickly - it's not a new development has nothing to do with overall pricing trends. Prices on GNR were falling like a rock during the same time prices on everything else continued to rise.
It's apples and oranges. GnR has reinforced the idea that some games can fall in value steeply, but I think we already knew that. Spooky games have been proving that for years also; this isn't all some new development - bad games fall in value even in good times. Godzilla is a good, well-liked game; which distinguishes itself from GNR. I doubt we'll see $10 by Xmas (2024) but I'm willing to take my lumps in 13 months if I'm wrong!
Quoted from Colsond3:Are there any Godzilla’s for sale anymore? I never see any.
You aren't looking too hard; there are a ton for sale! Yet we haven't seen their prices collapse like we have on GNR...yet!!!!!
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