(Topic ID: 290984)

Let’s Talk Pinball Pricing!

By wolverinetuner

1 year ago


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    There are 813 posts in this topic. You are on page 16 of 17.
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    #751 15 days ago

    Comparing pinball machine companies to kid rocks ticket sales….this is an argument only pinside could produce.
    D3FA0E4F-F25C-40F8-A30C-25C50A7D42D3.gif

    #752 15 days ago

    The Mandalorian topper for $2K and the James Bond 60th pin for $20K are anomalies. Cornerstone games and most future toppers will be priced more in line with other previous Stern offerings. Unfortunately, the expensive outliers do make high prices of lesser models seem more reasonable. So the EHoH topper at $1K which was a source of concern when released doesn't seem so bad now. And the Gomez Bond LE at $13K (while still pricey) seems less objectionable.

    #753 15 days ago
    Quoted from doublestack:

    Comparing pinball machine companies to kid rocks ticket sales….this is an argument only pinside could produce.
    [quoted image]

    Sometimes I just miss the good ol' carguments

    #754 15 days ago
    Quoted from ReadyPO:

    What will work to bring prices down is competition and dark horse companies with leaner operating costs, putting out less expensive pins with hi value and developing brand loyalty with their entry level pins

    Always something new on the horizon. But we can't even talk about pinball machines if literally we don't even notice that pinball toppers themselves are the leanest, most easy produced cheap product, and Stern isn't willing to sell them for a decent price. If this is all we get is that toppers are dumb, overpriced and people that buy them are stupid, there isn't anywhere to go with the discussion.

    #755 15 days ago
    Quoted from dpadam450:

    Always something new on the horizon. But we can't even talk about pinball machines if literally we don't even notice that pinball toppers themselves are the leanest, most easy produced cheap product, and Stern isn't willing to sell them for a decent price. If this is all we get is that toppers are dumb, overpriced and people that buy them are stupid, there isn't anywhere to go with the discussion.

    Some of the toppers definitely have some complexity... but even the most complex (SOR) from 2019 was $600MSRP IIRC., and people still freaked out...

    #756 15 days ago
    Quoted from koji:

    Some of the toppers definitely have some complexity... but even the most complex (SOR) from 2019 was $600MSRP IIRC., and people still freaked out...

    For sure. I mean the Mando topper is what it is. I'm sure it cost some actual R&D and design efforts and so on. Not worth the price in my opinion either. But for these acrylic ones. We do know the cost and yea I think you gotta call it out right. It's an outrageous price. "No but..." But it's a greedy price on toppers period. I have to push back on the "business doesn't work this way". How many companies on shark tank donate 1 million dollars in profit to charities? That's charity. 0 return on investment. Stern can still do business and survive with toppers at $100 across the board. They will make up some of it by yes more volume. I worked at a game company and in 1 week we put our game out for FREE on Sony store. We made more that week than almost a year because people were spending tons on in app purchases. Not black and white science in my opinion that lowering the price = bankruptcy. But 100% bad business and human nature to call your own customers stupid pawns that buy your overpriced product. I can't imagine that being a better business philosophy.

    #757 15 days ago
    Quoted from littlecammi:

    The Mandalorian topper for $2K and the James Bond 60th pin for $20K are anomalies.

    I think you may be surprised. I could easily see more $20k+ Super Special Editions of something, and more $2k toppers. I hope they offer them - it gives people more choices, something I like (choices). I'm not buying them even if they're $10k and $200, but I'm glad if people want to they can.

    And I don't think they're stupid as some have said - they are just choosing differently than me. I'm sure some people think I'm stupid for paying thousands for commercial grade amusement equipment for my house. I'm not stupid - I'm just choosing differently than them.

    #758 15 days ago
    Quoted from arcyallen:

    I'm not stupid.

    No way I would concede that the measure of a good business man is calling consumers who buy your products stupid in any form. You can be shocked how high you can set a price and see it sell, but looking down on those people, buying your decision, buying your product, being proud to sell products with that type of negativity towards the people who literally built you up and made you rich.

    #759 15 days ago

    It’s a manufacturing business first and foremost. Stop comparing it to other entertainment media like musicians and video games. The business principles of one don’t apply to the other. The product and means of production are incomparable.

    #760 15 days ago

    found a whale ?

    #761 15 days ago
    Quoted from TreyBo69:

    Stop comparing

    I think it compares. I'm merely speaking on someone's personal interest not being solely motivated by adding another million to their bank account. Profit is profit.

    There's a well-known show Shark Tank episode if you ever have seen it. One of the famous episodes on there was a guy manufacturing a product called the tree tee pee. This is a manufacturing story. https://www.treetpee.com/

    The company is still alive. There isn't a Youtube clip, but the summary is: the billionaire business people on the show crap on him and tell him his margins are garbage so it's not worth it. The guy is a farmer, lost his dad, said his dad raised him to be a fair business man and that he didn't want to rip off farmers. Paul Mitchell then says, you know what I'm gonna just do business with you. I believe in what you stand for. I believe you are right not to rip of your own people. I'll do the exact deal you came in here for. Those are the types of people I look up to and like doing business with.

    #762 15 days ago

    Pinball is fun. It's a neat hobby, if you have a lot of space and spare cash you can own one. If you're lucky and have the access you can just play it on location and let someone else worry all the expenses and maintenance.

    It's not something important to most people. In fact, most people thought we were nuts when we were paying 2013 prices.

    We don't need a "pinball in everyone home, chicken in every pot" program. It's not life sustaining. Stern is not overcharging people for insulin.

    If you don't like their topper prices, just don't buy them.

    I'm selling $1500 toppers right now, just shipped numbers 5 & 6 yesterday. I don't think my customers are idiots. Nor do I think I'm overcharging. But I certainly understand if you own a Tron and don't want to pay fifteen hundred bucks for some fancy lights. It's just a little fun.

    I'm not ripping off farmers. I've never watched Shark Tank, and I sure as fuck have never gone to a Kid Rock concert.

    #763 15 days ago

    I bought my first Pinball Machine on December 14, 2012..
    $2400...
    I thought that was going to be my limit...
    Oh the innocence of a Newbie....

    And yes.... I way over payed.
    A year later I went to my first live Captains Auction, the same Title in similar players plus condition sold for $700...uhhg !!
    I learned alot about the Hobby at that auction.

    #764 14 days ago
    Quoted from gonzo73:

    I bought my first Pinball Machine on December 14, 2012..
    $2400...
    I thought that was going to be my limit...
    Oh the innocence of a Newbie....
    And yes.... I way over payed.
    A year later I went to my first live Captains Auction, the same Title in similar players plus condition sold for $700...uhhg !!
    I learned alot about the Hobby at that auction.

    What machine was it?

    Idk what about the lesson. If you have $ and there is something you want, and it is worth it to you for what the product brings, then I'd consider it reasonably spent.

    Possibly had you wanted the title.. You might have been bidding back and forth at captains up to what you paid anyway. Never know how many people are buying with their heart at auction.

    #765 14 days ago

    One of the lessons was, don't buy the first game that pops up...
    You can eventually find any title.... well except a Atari Road Runner...

    In fact... two of the same title sold at the auction that day... both for $700... double Uuugg.

    I was excited to get my first pin, and didn't know anyone in the hobby...
    Two years later I had half a dozen pinball friends and realized there were other avenues to buy games, other than the Retail showroom I bought from.
    Live and learn.
    I've over paid for a third of my games' because I Had to have it...
    Paid marked price for a third
    And got real deals for the remainder.
    So I have done alright in the end.

    #766 14 days ago
    Quoted from gonzo73:

    One of the lessons was, don't buy the first game that pops up...
    You can eventually find any title.... well except a Atari Road Runner...
    In fact... two of the same title sold at the auction that day... both for $700... double Uuugg.
    I was excited to get my first pin, and didn't know anyone in the hobby...
    Two years later I had half a dozen pinball friends and realized there were other avenues to buy games, other than the Retail showroom I bought from.
    Live and learn.
    I've over paid for a third of my games' because I Had to have it...
    Paid marked price for a third
    And got real deals for the remainder.
    So I have done alright in the end.

    Nice. Yeah.. The retail market can be a hard lesson. Still for your first pin, id assume that the retail option gives a lot more piece of mind and having something fully working without too much mucking about.. Esp without knowing anyone in the pin world.

    #767 14 days ago
    Quoted from koji:

    Nice. Yeah.. The retail market can be a hard lesson. Still for your first pin, id assume that the retail option gives a lot more piece of mind and having something fully working without too much mucking about.. Esp without knowing anyone in the pin world.

    Yes.. I still have it.. and have never had a single problem, not one. So I'll never complain about the quality of the game they sold me.
    And it's an early 1980s Bally, so it was 30 something years old when I bought it.

    And I ain't telling what game it is... ha!

    #768 14 days ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    I'm selling $1500 toppers right now

    I think the value of your topper for what it offers at the price is miles better than the stencil cut acrylic toppers I posted before. Just flat pasted graphics for up to $900. I'll have to go through the thread because I'm curious of the light layout and assume the lights are just all mounted to the back, or is the PCB itself literally the size of the topper so it can just be surface mount done? edit: Nvm I think I know what you did for the lighting. Nice creative product.

    #769 14 days ago
    Quoted from dpadam450:

    I think the value of your topper for what it offers at the price is miles better than the stencil cut acrylic toppers I posted before.

    Thanks. Value is a subjective thing though. I think I'm providing good value too, but it's my product, of course I do. I could lay out my argument, but not everyone is going to agree no matter how hard I try and convince them. At a certain point no matter how creative, cool, and exclusive something feels it's just a topper.

    We'll see how many I make in the end, I have 20 pre-orders right now, but it's not going to be substantially more than that, it's too expensive. Which is fine, part of my pricing strategy was to keep production low, I simply cannot make these in numbers. If I sold them for half the price and had 3X as many orders I'd make more money, and I'd also be a stressed wreck.

    BOM never tells the full story.

    The reason my topper is so expensive isn't because of how much acrylic it uses. Honestly my single largest cost is paying my friend for his help with the electronics. Which is rad, one of my goals for the project was to involve him and make him some money and provide an opportunity to work on his PCB design skills. I could have found a cheaper way to do it through China I'm sure, but that wasn't what I was looking for.

    You can argue Stern's toppers are overpriced, but BOM doesn't tell the full story for them either. People's time is a real cost.

    #770 14 days ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    People's time is a real cost.

    I'd pay someone 4-8 hours to design the stern flat graphic print topper, unless they are drawing completely by hand, then 2-3 days. I'd give you a solid 40 hr work week or more on the Tron topper. Took some planning, I'd assume a prototype made first. Programming of light sequences etc etc. If you are the biggest company or a small modder, should take pride in your work. I'd expect for $800 at Sterns volume and how much of a following of people willing to pay big bucks, that they would have been the ones to design and produce your Tron topper.

    #771 14 days ago
    Quoted from dpadam450:

    I'd give you a solid 40 hr work week or more on the Tron topper.

    Well you'd vastly underestimate the time put into it, I can tell you that.

    #772 14 days ago
    Quoted from Aurich:

    Well you'd vastly underestimate the time put into it, I can tell you that.

    For sure, but I'm saying if you were an established best pinball brand, has a pcb shop, someone that does design on a daily basis. Your topper quality is what I should expect $800 to get from the best pinball company in the world.

    #773 14 days ago
    Quoted from dpadam450:

    For sure, but I'm saying if you were an established best pinball brand, has a pcb shop, someone that does design on a daily basis. Your topper quality is what I should expect $800 to get from the best pinball company in the world.

    You are extremely committed to guestimating costs without knowledge and dictating what everyone else should charge for their work.

    #774 14 days ago
    Quoted from The_Pump_House:

    You are extremely committed to guestimating costs without knowledge and dictating what everyone else should charge for their work.

    If he and kid rock band together to form a pinball company, life will be nothing but rainbows and unicorns.

    #775 14 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    If he and kid rock band together to form a pinball company, life will be nothing but rainbows and unicorns.

    IM A COOOOWWWBOOOYYY BAAAABBBBYYYY

    -1
    #776 14 days ago
    Quoted from The_Pump_House:

    You are extremely committed to guestimating costs without knowledge and dictating what everyone else should charge for their work.

    I mean I spent 4 years R&D'ing the price of 5/16" steel rod at volumes of 100 feet and 1000 ft. The cost time to cut them, debur them, have them galvanized. I've spoken with copper wire suppliers at volumes of various quantities. Cable making companies. Chip suppliers. Acrylic. Paint. All this stuff. Aside from that I've worked with concept artists from ILM (star wars), various videogame companies. I know what a piece of artwork costs and the time and what a pcb design costs because I build them and get quotes through various shops from USA to China. Might be something you can learn from me. If you think I offer no insights about pinball, business, design etc, then by all means. I'm a dummy and horrible business man.

    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    If he and kid rock band together to form a pinball company, life will be nothing but rainbows and unicorns.

    Well I did a deal with Nuclear Blast if you are familiar with them. They liked working with me. Testament, Gojira, all these bands like doing business with me. Dave Mustaine might work with me. If you think everyone is motivated by money and wants to call fellow pinball fans "stupid" and fellow metal heads (even tighter community) stupid, then I'm certain they won't do business with you. You are on a pinball website and you called anyone that buys pinball toppers stupid. What?

    #777 14 days ago

    Christ will this gasbag please take a day off?

    You think pinball machines should be cheaper. We get that. The rest of your pointless and endless word salads are just tiring us all out.

    I’m really upset to learn that Dave Mustaine won’t do business with me. Charlene , cancel my 2 pm, apparently the meeting is off

    #778 14 days ago
    Quoted from dpadam450:

    I mean I spent 4 years R&D'ing the price of 5/16" steel rod at volumes of 100 feet and 1000 ft. The cost time to cut them, debur them, have them galvanized. I've spoken with copper wire suppliers at volumes of various quantities. Cable making companies. Chip suppliers. Acrylic. Paint. All this stuff. Aside from that I've worked with concept artists from ILM (star wars), various videogame companies. I know what a piece of artwork costs and the time and what a pcb design costs because I build them and get quotes through various shops from USA to China. Might be something you can learn from me. If you think I offer no insights about pinball, business, design etc, then by all means. I'm a dummy and horrible business man.

    Well I did a deal with Nuclear Blast if you are familiar with them. They liked working with me. Testament, Gojira, all these bands like doing business with me. Dave Mustaine might work with me. If you think everyone is motivated by money and wants to call fellow pinball fans "stupid" and fellow metal heads (even tighter community) stupid, then I'm certain they won't do business with you. You are on a pinball website and you called anyone that buys pinball toppers stupid. What?

    Ok, but how familiar are you with the overhead of running a large scale manufacturing plant with some 300 employees/temps in the expensive Chicagoland area? A manufacturing facility that does wood working, printing, clear coating, multiple lines assembling complex widgets with hundreds of unique components (which all must be present for the line to work), and on top of that you maintain an active game development studio with dozens of artists, designers, programmers, engineers, and other support staff

    Yes toppers are expensive. They are major profit sources compared to the actual pinball machines. Could they be better? Sure. Do they need to be better? Clearly not based off the market for them.

    #779 14 days ago

    Fwiw Aurich, I wasn't trying to knock you and underestimate your effort and time. I'd bet it did take a lot of time and it shows. Just that a production house usually pumps stuff out fairly quick on a FT schedule with years of experience.

    #780 14 days ago

    Reminder that for a well-run company, BOM cost (and total cost) should never be a factor in the selling price. The selling price is what the market will allow... the total cost just tells you if you are going to earn enough margin to make it worth your time.

    #781 14 days ago
    Quoted from dpadam450:

    I mean I spent 4 years R&D'ing the price of 5/16" steel rod at volumes of 100 feet and 1000 ft. The cost time to cut them, debur them, have them galvanized. I've spoken with copper wire suppliers at volumes of various quantities. Cable making companies. Chip suppliers. Acrylic. Paint. All this stuff. Aside from that I've worked with concept artists from ILM (star wars), various videogame companies. I know what a piece of artwork costs and the time and what a pcb design costs because I build them and get quotes through various shops from USA to China. Might be something you can learn from me. If you think I offer no insights about pinball, business, design etc, then by all means. I'm a dummy and horrible business man.

    Well I did a deal with Nuclear Blast if you are familiar with them. They liked working with me. Testament, Gojira, all these bands like doing business with me. Dave Mustaine might work with me. If you think everyone is motivated by money and wants to call fellow pinball fans "stupid" and fellow metal heads (even tighter community) stupid, then I'm certain they won't do business with you. You are on a pinball website and you called anyone that buys pinball toppers stupid. What?

    Quoted from dpadam450:

    I mean I spent 4 years R&D'ing the price of 5/16" steel rod at volumes of 100 feet and 1000 ft. The cost time to cut them, debur them, have them galvanized. I've spoken with copper wire suppliers at volumes of various quantities. Cable making companies. Chip suppliers. Acrylic. Paint. All this stuff. Aside from that I've worked with concept artists from ILM (star wars), various videogame companies. I know what a piece of artwork costs and the time and what a pcb design costs because I build them and get quotes through various shops from USA to China. Might be something you can learn from me. If you think I offer no insights about pinball, business, design etc, then by all means. I'm a dummy and horrible business man.

    Well I did a deal with Nuclear Blast if you are familiar with them. They liked working with me. Testament, Gojira, all these bands like doing business with me. Dave Mustaine might work with me. If you think everyone is motivated by money and wants to call fellow pinball fans "stupid" and fellow metal heads (even tighter community) stupid, then I'm certain they won't do business with you. You are on a pinball website and you called anyone that buys pinball toppers stupid. What?

    No one told me there was going to be wiener measuring!!!

    #782 14 days ago
    Quoted from NC_Pin:

    Reminder that for a well-run company, BOM cost (and total cost) should never be a factor in the selling price. The selling price is what the market will allow... the total cost just tells you if you are going to earn enough margin to make it worth your time.

    Clearly Kid Rock and Dave Mustaine don't know how to run a company!

    #783 14 days ago
    Quoted from TreyBo69:

    Ok, but how familiar are you with the overhead of running a large scale manufacturing plant with some 300 employees

    I don't think you need 300 to R&D a badass Tron topper. Guys work is top notch. I'd probably hit him up if I were Stern and see if we couldn't do business. I think I am qualified enough to guestimate a topper cost.

    #784 14 days ago
    Quoted from The_Pump_House:

    No one told me there was going to be wiener measuring!!!

    Can't really engage in meaningful conversation with that idea. I mean you said I couldn't guess the cost to R&D an acrylic pinball topper with attached PCB(?)

    #785 14 days ago
    Quoted from dpadam450:

    I don't think you need 300 to R&D a badass Tron topper. Guys work is top notch. I'd probably hit him up if I were Stern and see if we couldn't do business. I think I am qualified enough to guestimate a topper cost.

    I don't even know what I'm reading here?

    Whatever. I need to hit the roads before the snow starts.

    Another successful waste of my time arguing on the internet. Huzzah.

    #786 14 days ago
    pasted_image (resized).png
    #787 14 days ago
    Quoted from TreyBo69:

    Another successful waste of my time arguing on the internet.

    Feel the same. Oh well. I think you engage yourself respectfully and well.

    #788 14 days ago
    Quoted from dpadam450:

    Fwiw Aurich, I wasn't trying to knock you and underestimate your effort and time. I'd bet it did take a lot of time and it shows. Just that a production house usually pumps stuff out fairly quick on a FT schedule with years of experience.

    It's fine, I didn't take offense.

    You want to build cheap pinball as a hobby for people go for it. You're certainly willing to put your time and money where your mouth is. I respect it.

    Nobody who's ever said pinball was easy has been right. But you can always prove me wrong.

    #789 14 days ago
    Quoted from dpadam450:

    Can't really engage in meaningful conversation with that idea. I mean you said I couldn't guess the cost to R&D an acrylic pinball topper with attached PCB(?)

    That is not what I said at all.

    #790 14 days ago
    Quoted from The_Pump_House:

    That is not what I said at all.

    He has a habit of doing that.

    I'm still trying to figure out when I called everybody who wants a topper stupid, or when I personally insulted the Nuclear Blast family of heavy metal bands.

    #791 14 days ago

    Thank goodness dpad did not get involved in the CCr Topergate melt down discussion - that topic would still have legs today if so

    #792 14 days ago
    Quoted from The_Pump_House:

    That is not what I said at all.

    Well my apologies then, I'm just saying of anyone in the world right now. I'm literally pricing pieces of raw steel to shop to manufacture pinball games. I'm trying. May not work out, but damn I put in the time to know what I'm talking about. Not sure what Levi guys experience in life+work is. My track record already is every employee at EA + Take Two Interactive that trusts my work on billion dollar products sold every year. I mean, I'm a good dude, I like learning stuff and having convos with good people. I've only been in this whole pinball world for 4 years. Levi dude I guess I'm just better off to block him and forget, because he simply isn't offering anything that interests me. I've talked with 1000+ people at tradeshows, my email list is 500 people. I'm on pinside because I enjoy talking and engaging with pinball fans. For all anyone knows I'm 12, signed up for pinside because I like it. Enlighten people if you know something better. But yea, I mean not much else to talk about.

    #793 14 days ago
    Quoted from dpadam450:

    Well my apologies then, I'm just saying of anyone in the world right now. I'm literally pricing pieces of raw steel to shop to manufacture pinball games. I'm trying. May not work out, but damn I put in the time to know what I'm talking about. Not sure what Levi guys experience in life+work is. My track record already is every employee at EA + Take Two Interactive that trusts my work on billion dollar products sold every year. I mean, I'm a good dude, I like learning stuff and having convos with good people. I've only been in this whole pinball world for 4 years. Levi dude I guess I'm just better off to block him and forget, because he simply isn't offering anything that interests me. I've talked with 1000+ people at tradeshows, my email list is 500 people. I'm on pinside because I enjoy talking and engaging with pinball fans. For all anyone knows I'm 12, signed up for pinside because I like it. Enlighten people if you know something better. But yea, I mean not much else to talk about.

    For many of these posts, especially for longer time members, they've seen it ad nauseam over the years... You could shoehorn variables for the numbers etc.. but the concepts, and ratios, previous experience etc. are always the same... So if it seems like people are exasperated in their responses, I'd suggest giving the benefit of the doubt, that this is the case.

    #794 14 days ago
    Quoted from dpadam450:

    Feel the same. Oh well. I think you engage yourself respectfully and well.

    Thanks. And to be clear, as I mentioned in your pin company thread, I do think you are knowledgeable, capable, and self-driven. There is value in challenging some conventional wisdom. But just like koji said, these debate points aren’t new.

    I had a similar mindset when I first really got into the hobby several years ago. But eventually you start to learn the community, who’s buying stuff, etc… and then you realize a guy like Levi isn’t so crazy. Just grumpy from tilling at the windmill which is educating the newbs about the business reality of modern pinball.

    And for anyone concerned, I got home safely before dark and the snow started falling too heavily. Now just got to deal with a flakey plowman…. I miss warm weather. Fuck snow

    #795 14 days ago
    Quoted from TreyBo69:

    Thanks. And to be clear, as I mentioned in your pin company thread, I do think you are knowledgeable, capable, and self-driven. There is value in challenging some conventional wisdom. But just like koji said, these debate points aren’t new.
    I had a similar mindset when I first really got into the hobby several years ago. But eventually you start to learn the community, who’s buying stuff, etc… and then you realize a guy like Levi isn’t so crazy. Just grumpy from tilling at the windmill which is educating the newbs about the business reality of modern pinball.
    And for anyone concerned, I got home safely before dark and the snow started falling too heavily. Now just got to deal with a flakey plowman…. I miss warm weather. Fuck snow

    Move to New York City.

    Apparently winter has been canceled this year.

    #796 14 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Move to New York City.
    Apparently winter has been canceled this year.

    did Old Man Winter sexually assault someone?

    #797 14 days ago
    Quoted from CrazyLevi:

    Christ will this gasbag please take a day off?

    Finally, you get us! But only ironically.

    #798 14 days ago
    Quoted from dpadam450:

    My track record already is every employee at EA + Take Two Interactive that trusts my work on billion dollar products sold every year.

    Its always the video game guys.

    -1
    #799 14 days ago
    Quoted from TreyBo69:

    these debate points aren’t new.

    Yea that's why I tried to flow the convo at least to toppers instead of keep the convo stagnant. Anyone can price material costs on those. I wrote Levi 6 months ago via a private message. I never saw his posts on here before. I saw he likes the bands I worked with. I told him I built my entire platform from scratch and said I'm working at making an affordable game at a good price. His response was "Interesting can you bring the game to NYC Pinball Champs." Here 6 months later he's mocking me for doing business with all these famous bands he enjoys. Claims I'm stupid. and then insults people who buy pinball accessories on a pinball website for hardcore pinball fans. Sorry everyone had to waste the time listening to the convo between myself and him but yea I said all about all I can on this topic, as best I can, and I'll keep moving forward.

    #800 14 days ago
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