Medieval Madness is one of the most famous modern pins of all time. People who've never played physical pinball know it.

New collectors would join the hobby and that would be the first game they wanted.

It's perpetually living at the top of the silly Pinside Top 100, which might be pointless but is also undeniably a resource some people look at.

I'm running a team with beginners in a local league, they all ask to play MM because they know it from playing it in an app on their phone.

Collectors buy it because it's a known thing, and hyped up. Ops buy it because it's been a proven earner for decades.

All of the things that a license brings to the table are there, and then some. How many licenses can you get that come with the CAD files, all the rules, and a built in market?

"Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a castle is insignificant next to the power of the Star Wars license."

I've been an advocate of original themes on Pinside for the last decade, I love the idea, but I can't fight the reality of things. Licenses sell.

Pinball companies sink a lot of money into developing a game, it's hard to blame them for being risk adverse when they know what works.

This is a paraphrase:

"If you're buying a stuffed toy mouse for your child, are you going to buy the generic rat or the Mickey Mouse?" - Joe Kaminkow

As long as AP is around, folks will have all the opportunities they want to not buy unlicensed games despite saying they want unlicensed games.

For the big boys, I'm afraid it's gonna be license city till the end of time.

Stern and JJP have both learned their lessons with BKSOR and Dialed In.

This is all true... for Medieval Madness in particular, and not at all for nonlicensed pins in general. MM is a wild outlier exception, not a rule that any other nonlicensed pin can expect to follow. For every MM, there's a dozen nonlicenses like say BKSOR or the American Pinball titles that went completely unnoticed by the public.

To be fair, if Dialed in is what makes Jersey Jack decide original IP's never sell and they won't make an original IP...isn't an entertaining idea on it's own. Maybe had they released a better idea. I'd blame the design team on that one.

If they just made a game with a high level concept of robots and just decided the theme was based of of robots, any style, cartoon, Transformers like, anything you can concept about robots.............they went will interacting with a cell phone.

Since it's on the topic of pinball pricing, my guess is licensing 5% would be the absolute minimum I could imagine (500 per game @ 10K). Probably 25% for movies is a better guess. That's $2,500 out. Make a Stern Pro, without a license, you get a Pro game at the price of their affordable home game lineup. All these other new IP's were charging MSRP of licensed games.

Ah so now we are on to the fantasy that if they don't license games, they'll slash their prices.

That's now how it works. BKSOR cost the exact same amount of money as Star Wars. JJP did not dial back their prices when they released Dialed In, they raised them. Stern has no interest in "passing the savings" along to you, lowering their prices, or competing with their own home models.

If you want a home game, buy a home game. If you want Stern to release pro games at home prices, hey, I want to start crapping diamonds, but it's probably not gonna happen.

(Also, now that you doing an unlicensed game, where does all game's art come from, or the content for that big LCD screen on these games, or the audio? You gotta to pay someone to make all that stuff that you used to get with your license. There goes your savings... )

I didn't ask that of them. I merely said that an unlicensed game at a good price, could sell. You have to tie in the fact that the IP was a cellphone and cost $10k. I don't know where you would derive that a new IP just won't sell. No other factors why Dialed In might not have sold (whatever it did sell, just taking your word it wasn't good)?

People always say this.

“Yeah BKSOR and dialed in were big flops. But that doesn’t prove unlicensed themes won’t sell!!”

What would prove it? Do want stern or JjP to go out of business trying to prove you right?

Probably easier for them to just keep doing licensed games and making big profits.

I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree. In the meantime, please buy AP unlicensed pins to show your support for this business model.

Save your money for Galactic Tank Force if you want an original theme. American Pinball games are built well and this one has Nordman as the designer. Hopefully it will be a good seller and open the door to other unlicensed games. If I were a betting man though I'd say that Spooky will sell more Scooby's than American will of Galactic Tank Force even without a big name designer or programmer. That's the power of a strong license.

Maybe; but a licensed game, good or not for much more, has a much better chance of selling.

For sure. Be stupid to think otherwise.

Yeah, as much as the hardcore pinball player community would like to think it is them that drives the market.. this does not seem to be the case.

Same sort of case with operators.. we might love to think it is the hardcore players generating revenue.. but in most coin drop cases, it is casuals etc.

... and casuals are going to be excited about Stranger things much more than a title that might have a superior layout and sound package etc.

Genuine question - Single level Bond 60th with Elwin the designer and with very little IP in some have argued an unattractive format. Does this pin as an unlicensed theme, no IP to pay for, same rules and playfield, with Elwin the designer, sell more than 500 @ $20K (say $8500K so would have to sell at least 1,176)?

And the reverse, same pin Bond theme and same art and it's Stern's new designer, Jack Danger. Does that sell 500 @ $20K?

Inflation has hit the pinball market hard. Prices have skyrocketed to ridiculous levels, with some machines going for more than the GDP of small countries. But don't worry, the future looks bright for pinball enthusiasts. Experts predict that by 2050, a single game of pinball will cost more than a one-way trip to Mars. So start saving now, because the future of pinball is out of this world!

Out of this world (resized).png

Huh...tuffy. Elwin easy would sell lore than Danger.

You fell for the logic trap Law. Elwin outsells Danger. But Bond outsells Elwin.

Not sure what the Hell you guys are going on about but I’ll add my own irrelevant thoughts:

A back to the future game designed by anybody would outsell any unlicensed Elwin game.

Most people who scream that they want paid themes are not getting the idea that something trendy or "Hot" does not extrapulate out to guaranteed sales and totally relies on research that may not lead to hypothosis that do not pan out.

If it is the case why isnt their a tik tok pinball table? Paid themes date a machine where as un paid themes dont.

Can unpaid themes have a place, sure but it depends on wether or not the hobby will drop the attitude of only demanding paid themes and be acepting of orginal ideas.

"Unpaid themes dont sell well" is really an indictment on the hobby trying to justify spending large sums of cash on an "toy" that costs alot of money to their significant other.

The "screaming for paid themes" we see on Pinside lead to edgy and untested themes like AC/DC, Star Wars, GnR, and Jurassic Park.

I’ll take that bet

I vote Elwin’s unlicensed time travel theme

would beat

Trudeau’s BTTF

Ah that makes sense. It was giving me headache reading and couldn't figure out what was going on.

I mean, you’ve basically just refuted your own point about how much theme matters. You’re bashing Dialed In because of its theme. It’s a great game that’s a ton of fun to play and the cell phone is basically just a screen on the playfield that gives you information about what’s going on. It’s mostly a game about natural disasters hitting a city, clearly an homage to much-loved earlier Lawler machines. It was close to a license for those. But because people heard it had a cell phone they decided it was a shit theme and wouldn’t buy it.

If they went with your idea, people would complain that it was a cheap knock off transformers, or some other robot thing, instead of having a real theme, and they wouldn’t have bought that either.

Modern games require a lot of assets and story/thematic elements. People expect lots of callouts, cool animations on an LCD, and a sense of progression that ties all the gameplay elements together. And to be entertained by all of this for at least a 30-45 minute game if they're going to make the wizard mode.

The era of "just put a sexy robot girl on the backglass and let the player fill in the rest with their imagination" is long gone.

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When Stern did a new Black Knight they had to come up with all that stuff. The previous versions just needed a bad ass backglass and some music.

It's hard to say how much people did or did not connect with it all on Swords of Rage. I honestly think the gameplay just wasn't that interesting, and no theme in the world will save that. But either way it still was a lot of work. Just because you're not paying for a license doesn't mean you're not paying your staff to develop the world. Time is not free.

If you're a solo designer doing this as a hobby and you enjoy making up a story for your personal game that's cool, in the world of business people like to get paid for their time. Months of design and effort don't appear for nothing.

My point was theme vs established IP. A new idea be it a movie, videogame, etc, has to be cool theme.

I suppose, yet there are 100's of new movie/videogame/netflix shows released every single year with new ideas. Including robots. People eat them up and they make money. I think pinball games can be fun and sell the same as any other form of entertainment. Dialed In if you came into a product pitch not knowing it's a pinball game: "This is a game you will interact with a cellphone with x,y,z and our anticipated market is 40+ year old men".

I'm talking blind here, but going off Levi and some others that said Toy Story didn't do well. Target Market: 40+ year old men. Let's not only license an IP with a target audience 4-10 (the movie), but let's not even get the IP that our 40+ year old audience grew up with.

Can I ask about topper pricing? Here is a list of toppers, acrylic cut with vinyl adhesive art. Can toppers be made and sold cheaper that $750 MSRP? What do you guys think the bill of material cost for these is?
https://littleshopofgames.com/product-category/toppers/stern-toppers/

Nah. People would figure out a way to rationalize it.

"hey he's paid his debt to society. I wouldn't normally buy a game designed by a sex offender...but it's my GRAIL THEME! And they got Biff to do the callouts!"

BTTF LE's would already be sold out before you even knew who designed it. All it takes is a rumor of a theme and the money starts lining up. Nobody gets that excited about a non license game.

Why would toppers be sold cheaper? They are useless items that a subset of collectors are will to pay for. What possible benefit would a lower price be to the manufacturer?

"If they were cheaper, they could sell more of them!!!!"

That's generally the Pinside take, which of course doesn't really make any sense from a business perspective but you have to remember that most Pinsiders seem to want pinball companies to run themselves out of business.

I always like to bring up the Stones. yeah, Mick and company.

Back in 1989, they played 6 nights at Giants Stadium and sold them out, with tickets at $20.

Now, they are much more content to play one or two shows at the same place, with many tickets selling for several thousand dollars, and don't really give a shit if they sell them out. Makes a lot more sense, don't it?

But still, you see Pinsiders insisting Stern should sell games at $4,000 cause "they'd sell a ton more!""

Pinball is not really a volume business. It ain't toilet paper.

Why would somebody offer good prices to the consumers that made them: Why would you lower your prices: Maybe to be a good dude. Squeezing every drop of money out of your customers is not necessary to maintain a business.

Just pointing out someone making toppers for $20 and selling for $700. That is honest business that you have to stick up for. Why? Because you like their games and they are fun? Can you separate that conversation for Toppers? What in your mind is justification for $700 topper. Honest question. Not about sales numbers. I wouldn't be happy to sell them that expensive. I get people will pay. Yes I believe you could sell more at a better price. But I see some posts you say BOM is way higher. Ok toppers has nothing to do with BOM. Design cost: nope. Licensing fee: You think the license fee on toppers is $600? doubt it. So then what? Your arguments I guess are Pinball is a pure collector hobby and pricing has nothing to do with BOM+design+any other things you mentioned. Explain why a topper is $700. Break it down.

You think $700 is honest/good business/ good ethics for your consumers Levi? Is that how you feel about people you work alongside/with/ people who consume your products? I mean the thing costs $20 at best for the toppers I posted.

What the fuck are you blathering about?!

"Good business" is making the highest profit possible.

This is a fucking industry, it's not UNICEF. I really don't understand how people with jobs/businesses can become so unrealistic and brain-fogged when it comes to the pinball industry.

Hey, I bet you could do your job cheaper. I mean seriously...you couldn't spare a little bit of your salary to make your boss happier and be a "good dude?" You should march into your boss's office tomorrow and demand a pay cut, for the good of the company. It's just honesty, good ethics, and good business!

Also, Kid Rock is a fucking no-talent and anybody paying 25 bucks to see him should get their head examined. AND, his "$25 ticket tour!" was complete PR bullshit. All the good seats were auctioned off to the highest bidder - if you wanted to sit in the front, you paid the "premium" or "LE" price. And the rest of the tickets were sold for exactly what they were "worth;" 25 bucks. He didn't sell out any of those shows because his audience is extremely limited.

Yea I don't know what you are that mad about man. Good business and honest business are two different things. I used to follow a band called NOFX. He runs a record label. Best Buy offered him a sellout deal making them exclusive to sell their CD's. He passed and said I already have deals with these little music stores across the US.

Honestly if you believe money is the driving factor for everything, I guess we are just different people. You still have not justified what makes a $700 topper. You said you hate him and don't follow him (Kid Rock, neither do I), but yet you know everything about a video I posted that was 10 years old? I mean it's a fact. Detroit he sold his beers cheap while Bud Lights were $20.

There are good, cool, rich people who make honest money. Maybe they have 20 million instead of 22. That doesn't mean you are bad at business.

I follow the industry, and I know that Kid Rock's "$25 tour" was PR bullshit. The best seats were up for auction and sold for whatever the market could bear, as I've already stated.

Why?

Cause he's not touring to make friends or be a "good dude," it's how he makes his living, feeds his kids, and pays off his ex-wives, and it's how he pays his band, his crew, and everybody else involved. He didn't leave a cent on the table for that tour, trust me.

You have zero idea what Stern's profit margins are, yet you want them to slash prices to be "ethical." As I've already asked, are you willing to take a pay cut, or charge your customers less to be a "good dude?" Couldn't you survive with 20 percent less income?

Me? Absolutely. And so does every single band that comes to town that I see. They play metal music which is not popular. Even though they are the most talented dudes, they choose to do what they love.

"You have zero idea what Stern's profit margins are"

See you lost me here. This is why I said toppers. You and I know what a piece of 1/16" or 1/8" acrylic costs. We both know what vinyl adhesive poster art costs. those are the 2 things that make up 6 toppers on that website all priced above $500.

And yea man, I'm not claiming to be Jesus, but my wife came from the 3rd world. Her mom couldn't afford a hot water heater so for 28 years my wife took cold showers. You don't need to nickle and dime your friends, customers, family.

So you are going to tell your boss you want to take a pay cut tomorrow, or tell your clients they are all getting a 20 percent discount?

Well, you got me. You have officially won this argument, and proven the strength of your convictions.

Too bad you don't run Stern, pinball machines would be way cheaper.

I didn't answer this because I simply don't give a shit. Nobody needs or wants a topper. I don't need or want a topper. If Stern wants to charge idiots $5,000 for toppers, that's absolutely fine with me. I'm all for Stern making as much money as possible and continuing to make pinball machines for decades to come.

When I am the boss, yes.

Pinballs has costed me lots of monies

See you showed your colors man. The consumer, us as a pinball community, people who want pinball items are just plain idiots. I don't think you are an idiot if you want something expensive be it a pinball topper or a Ferari. I guess we are just different people and nothing we can do to agree on anything. See I'd be sad to offer a product so crazy priced that I have to call my customers idiots. I'd rather charge a good price and shake hands with that customer and think I had an honest sale and believe my customers are good people.

I’ll cut it back even simpler, what is the justification for a topper? Why does Stern even make something so useless?

They are a ridiculous mod that people with too much money want to buy. So if Stern is going to put forth any time on this ridiculous thing, why not charge a ridiculous price for it? I’d imagine several people there have the same outlook, there is no point to these things except to collect money from people who have nothing better to throw money at.

What’s it like running your little corner store in the 1800s?

There isn't a justification for lots of products. People buy action figures. My friend growing up bought the Master Chief Halo helmet to sit on his desk for $100. People just buy stuff and they like it. Even static things. I got a painting by Michael Cheval that sadly cost me too much money. It sits on my wall. Someone finds value in all kinds of items.

I don't believe Stern has the opinion their customers are idiots. Even with the Bond game. You know they tried something new and boosted the price. But if in order for me to sell products to make a living is to look down on my customers as idiots, I'd take myself out of the game. Not saying that against Stern but the opinion of someone on here. At least I think everyone agrees it's a ridiculous price. Some might say it's so ridiculous that someone that spends it must be stupid. "Too bad you don't run Stern, pinball machines would be way cheaper." What would you do if you owned Stern? Call everyone on Pinside that owns a topper, which I'm sure is a TON of people. Idiots. That you publicly look down on them?

All the monies.

You remind me of people who used to come to the bar and say "Man, if you had $1 bottles you would be PACKED!!"

I have two PIN's, a Williams F-14 Tomcat (1987) and a Capt. Fantastic and The Brown Dirt Cowboy Pin (1976) both working and in average or better condition. I have been following the market on these through the RONA and now into whatever we call this inflation thing. IMO the market has gone soft on PINs. People will still step up and pay large for that must have PIN or a PIN that they played as a teenager.

Problem with buying PINs is fi they are not local or at least a short drive the cost to get one across country is prohibitive.

I’m just tired of seeing kid rock’s stupid face in these pricing threads. It’s like the third time this has happened!!

Kid rock is an asshole and he gouges his customers as badly as any topper selling pinball manufacturer.

Really?! $400 to see that hack?

I’ll take the $2k topper please.

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I agree with CrazyLevi here (did I just say that), pinball is a business. The only way prices go down is by supply and demand or competition. Raise the price too much ($2,000 topper), many won't buy, but it makes more sense to make a few of them rather than thousands more at a lower price point. The Stones concert is a great analogy, because their market is getting as old as them but more affluent, so sell to the few at a higher price.

The difference is they don't need to worry about being an ongoing concern, when they are gone no more concerts. Not the same with Pinball. Failure to generate interest in the younger generation will lead to market stagnation, and eventually death. The car manufacturers know this, which is they offer entry level cars that no where near make the profits SUV or trucks do, hooking you young to develop some brand loyalty. Stern Pros could do this I think, but the price differential is not quite there. Home pins didn't work either, but I understand the trying.

Personally, other companies in this situation try hard to lower costs to bring their product more in line with market expectations. Off-shore, in-house production of critical components, economies of scale, etc. Maybe Stern is trying those with its move to bigger quarters.

What will work to bring prices down is competition and dark horse companies with leaner operating costs, putting out less expensive pins with hi value and developing brand loyalty with their entry level pins (I am thinking Spooky here, but American and others as well). The free market runs on competition and innovation. We all know we don't want too much innovation, at least in how a pin plays, but what is under the hood is fair game.

That's what Stern thought as well, then they raised topper prices to 2k and still sold out immediately.

I'm sure they look at their customers as....passionate, at least rhats what they say.