You like to make things up, don't you? Never said that quote. Nor did I specifically say a number. And since it was done, well, what's the point you are trying to make? Things that happened didn't?

And since you already pointed out that you don't have the numbers on costs, it also means you have no clue what can be done. None.

Yeah, Thunderbirds was a total piece of shit ONLY because the layout was poor. Not that it wasn't solidly built. Not because of the price point. Merely a poor layout, and that's ALL that kept it from doing well according to those who tried it.

I'm not the one saying A) we don't have the data, but B) I know the data and it cannot be done.

Thunderbirds was actually $5,000 new, not $4,000. Look it up. in 2018. So yeah, that happened. Congrats I guess?

It also had a plastic lockdown bar. Just like Stern's $5,000 offerings.

Seems like $5,000 - from the biggest, most efficient, best-scaled manufacturer - is the bottom line for how cheap a pinball machine can be made, mass produced, and sold for a profit in 2022. And you get no coin door, a tiny screen, and a plastic lockdown bar.

They seem to have finally found the sweet spot - I believe they've sold a bunch of these things. We'll see if they continue to pursue this market.

Thunderbirds was a $5,000 piece of shit for MANY reasons besides it's "poor layout." The game feels like a tinkertoy. I've actually played one, I can only assume you haven't since you are touting it's build quality.

IT HAS A PLASTIC FUCKING LOCKDOWN BAR.

For a guy with all the clues and all the answers you honestly don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about.

The guy who thinks Spooky can sell 6,000 games at $4,000 and actually remain in business thinks I'm "clueless!!""

There's currently a Star Wars Home Edition available at 5k and it has ramps, drops, and a spinner.

Anything less and you can expect the box to say "some assembly required".

Again, you like to make stuff up. Never said Spooky could sell 6000 games at 4K. Also, I also clearly referenced the comments section for the game that people who HAD played it had said about the build quality. Those are my sources. You don't like to read all the way through these comments?

Anyway, this conversation isn't providing anyone with anything, and I should have ended it several comments back. I do hope you have a good holiday, and as many pins as you want. Cheers.

Thunderbirds is top 10

I like Big, Juicy Melons.

Do you know any of these "kidults?" They sound like a strange bunch.
It's interesting to see this clearly isn't just happening in the pinball industry. People my age with money now want to spend it on "toys".

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/19/kidults-biggest-sales-driver-toy-industry.html

I remember NAVL shipping for a consistent $295-300 per cabinet (game), arcade or pinball machine. Regardless of where it came from or was going to.

Those days are gone.

Yes, I remember that too. It seems too much is gone these days....

As it is, there is no way I could ever afford a NIB pin, even if I wanted one. Fortunately, nothing coming out of Stern or the other smaller houses has been anything but too much flash. I'll stick to the older 80-90s titles until they become too much. Hopefully there will be board packages that let you create new sounds, voices and programming for older titles that are considered dogs.

I hope not. Bread will be a million bucks a loaf.

LTG : )

Already exists.

https://fastpinball.com/retro/

That's cool, but what about 80s games? Like Bally poor pins, like say, Balls of Steel, or any number of bad Williams or Gottlieb titles from that era?

If by Balls of Steel you mean Kings of Steel then yes, it's possible, and been done with the same board:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/flash-gordon-2021-re-imagined-code-for-bally-flash-gordon-1981

As with anything it takes work though.

Search for Meteor 2021. I believe there is also updated code for Seawitch, which it looks like you have, but I don't think there were sound changes done on it.

Financing options on Stern's Website for the Bond 60th. Courtesy of Pinball-Obsessed on the SLE thread https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/james-bond-60th-edition-sle-super-limited-elwin-hype-thread/page/66#post-7332628.

19.15% APR on a Pinball Machine.

I really hope Pinball Financing doesn't become a thing. "I'm Out" when thats a requirement.

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Yeah, but you do get a 30,000 mile limited warranty with that (bumper-to-bumper, excluding the playfield).

Needing to finance something is the -definition- of not being able to afford it! People often overlook that fact. Financing entertainment is the surefire path to working forever.

So does CEs trading for baseball cards or someone selling a new pin for 3500 loss mean that bubble finally popped ? Only new games holding they’re value are cornerstones from team Elwin .Carry on

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Historically (pre covid) nib was always a bit hit and miss with exceeding msrp. Typically you would expect to lose a bit over your final cost... As you should.

Bump this thread when TZ / taf etc dip below 2018 pricing and we'll talk bubbles...

Just having a laugh .The last thing I want to see is the bubble bursting but you have to admit, these price jumps lately are insane .I got in this hobby right before covid and couldn’t believe what was going on .Told my wife I should quit my day job haha.But honestly I purchased 12 pins /5 NIB (kept 4) in the last couple years .I won’t buy another NIB unless it’s a top 3 theme for me because I could care less about value at that point I can’t afford to lose a couple k a few times a year .She’ll kick me out and rightfully so .

I think 2023 is the year you possibly might be proven wrong.

Used to know these folks as yuppies. Hipster is the latest that I am aware of. It's a trend thing. A short actual analogy to NASCAR that fits here I think.

It's 2010. I have season tickets to Bristol Motor Speedway. Killing time before the night race that year, watching the huge crowd. Dressed really well, they had money to spend, they were there for the "experience"... Thunder Valley, the world's fastest half-mile, etc.,etc. At this point in time I had been a ticket holder for 13 years.

Told my wife that day.... these people won't be here for the long haul. It's good right now, but it won't last. I could already see the tethers coming undone at this time.

Not saying all people are like this, they most definitely are not, but there are a lot of people out there that just migrate to the newest coolest thing and they have money to spend. How many will contribute to the continuation of pinball.... that's anybody's guess.

fwiw

Never had the joy and pleasure of a NIB. Closest I got was my LOTR, I was the second owner. That was as close to NIB as I expect I will ever get. There is a title or two out there that I would consider, but all are 70's or 80's games. I like the older machines, I like working on them (bitching and cussing the whole time of course)

The most I have ever paid for a pinball machine, my LOTR, is $4500, plus $300 shipping via NAVL. This was 2007. It smelled new when I got it, it looked new when I got it. The advantages of buying from a NIB home owner who took very good care of the machine.

Paid $300 for my Fireball II - dead machine (2006)
Paid $900 for my Dungeons & Dragons (2007)
Paid $1700 for my Fireball. (2020)

Shipping for all but Fireball and Fireball II, was $300. Fireball came in at $275. Fireball II cost me about $15 worth of Diesel fuel and a bit of lifting.

Is it because everything is getting cheaper? Reliable labor, parts, fuel, interest rates and the like? I think you are trolling.

There are forces like you mentioned that have pushed prices up. But he might be referring to a big force that could be pushing prices down this year - reduced demand. What you mentioned already happened and costs already went up. Maybe all those already inflated costs will continue to skyrocket. Maybe the already high demand will continue to skyrocket. But when we assume super high numbers will continue to climb, or super low numbers will continue to plummet, we're often wrong. And no one knows, so it'll be fun to watch how 2023 unfolds. Looking back is easy. Looking forward is surprisingly difficult.

Well, it’s a lot more likely the price of all items everywhere will either fall or rise and not stay exactly the same forever. Look how long it took for the price of a specific good to double from the year 1900 and how many years that same good took to double from the year 1950. How many years from today will it take before the price of any given item doubles again? Sadly, my guess is less than 25 years.

Lousy kids with their "New in Box" pins. Back in my day we bought used machines off route and we LIKED IT

Seriously, it's disconcerting to see both Stern and JJP going the way of ever-higher prices. They can't control inflation and it's true that stuff is getting more expensive in general, but they do decide how much to spend on licensing, fancy toys, and what goes on the price tag. If you charge too much for too little people are going to go elsewhere - I mean we DO have decades of pinballs that still play well out there as alternatives. If you don't listen to your customers you're going to risk a collapse. I'd rather get two HUO Pros (or other comparably priced options) than one NIB Premium and I'll bet I'm not the only one.

But in this business, you also risk collapse by paying too much attention to your customers. Most of the industry suggestions we get around here are absolutely terrible.

"They should slash prices, but also improve quality and pack games with more shit" is the general consensus around here, along with "They should immediately stop doing all of the things they've done over the past 10 years that have dramatically increased profits."

Good luck taking that approach and staying in business for more than a month.

1. Most people are looking for NIB these days anyway; look at their collections

2. Those old games cost as much or more than a NIB Stern pro.

I'm curious how much they are charging for some of these licenses. I'm curious what a Stern original theme would cost. I thought it was very out of touch for Gomez at Stern to state that you have to have an established IP in the interview below, yet we are seeing so many remakes of themes that were strictly pinball themes and some of those originally sold 6,000 machines at release.

Here is a very interesting interview to check out. Also some good talk about Opto spinners costing too much. A regular switch they might get for $0.10. Opto spinner cost about ~$0.50, so when you talk about Sterns material costs, we are talking about parts that cost dollars and pennies.

See, this is exactly what I'm saying, and why Stern should continue to ignore their customers.

"Stern should do unlicensed themes!"

No they shouldn't. BKSOR is as close to an unlicensed LCD they've ever made and it was Stern's worst seller, the first to get "retired." You won't see an unlicensed Stern again because nobody bought one when they had the chance.

Everybody says they want unlicensed games but they don't buy them.

If Pinside ran Stern they'd be tits up in a week.

Oh lord.

I mean, yea they should ignore trying to please all customers, because you have to just do what you want. Don't know the numbers, but is Chicago gaming not selling that well? Seems like Cactus Canyon is doing alright. I see that game and Medieval Madness popup all the time. I just guess I don't understand the claim that Pinball only IP's don't sell. This is just the info from pinside not sure how accurate and I don't know what Stern considers break-even vs financial success. Is that 10,000+ units per game? Anyone know?

Just 3 random games I chose.
Bride of Pinbot: 8,000
Haunted House 7,000
Medieval Madness 4,000

That's also just NIB sales, not how many consumers purchase a used one in which I would consider another sale, because there is demand for the IP from a secondary consumer. I think there is demand.

Those are famous IPs, obviously. Pinball IPs.

BKSOR & DI are the original themes and both undersold and DI is worth thousands less then released.
BKSOR has gone up a bit

Why are you talking about games that were made 20-40 years ago?

In today's market, unlicensed themes don't sell. The market in 1995 compared to 2023 couldn't possibly be more different.

The remakes are an anomaly. They are old games. They'll continue to sell based on the goodwill, nostalgia, and reputation of decades past.

Spooky's recent "Haunted House" game sold about 200 units and it took forever to clear them out. Today's buyers don't want unlicensed games, they want their "dream theme." They want a theme their kids and their wife are familiar with. They want something that reminds them of that movie they liked in Jr. High School. The fact that this wasn't true decades ago has zero bearing upon today; times change.

I'd add as well, that a hot seller for CGC vs a hot seller from Stern are likely quite different numbers wise.

Do they? If I asked for some evidence for that cost could you produce it? I mean no offense, but anyone can make up numbers that sound good in their heads, but that doesn't mean that's what things actually cost.

The Stern optical spinners look like they're using diffuse-reflective photoelectric sensors. If you can find one for 50¢ I'd love to see it, and homebrew mod makers would thank you.

A thousand $1 parts are still $1000.

I mean for sure if you can go with a micro SPDT switch by all means save money at volume. Not knocking them.

This is my go to supplier, Jameco. They have various ones and this is the highest discount at volume, I'm sure Stern can get them cheaper at 50,000 qty. I use the $0.12 one. It requires a Phototransistor LED of the same cost. Not sure if Stern uses a transistor to boost the signal or not which would be another $0.19. I just find it funny knowing an opto LED costs under $1 with PCB and everything, that the 4 opto spinners were advertised as a bullet point on the $20,000 bond.

True, could be making money for Nostalgia. TNA seemed to make good money however. But I do talk to a lot of pinball people and myself and a ton of us have zero ties to 1988 pinball. We still find Cactus Canyon and Medieval Madness appealing and very fun, so it's not nostalgia to us.
IR LED (resized).png

MM, MB, and Cactus Canyon were original themes when B/W made them in the 90s. But now they’re just more licensed IP. They’re undeniably great games to play, but they sell well because people love their (licensed) themes, same as Star Wars or Jurassic Park.

Yea to many it's a licensed game in a sense, it's not strictly a license though. I literally walked up to a MM one day in an arcade, didn't know anything about the prior game, who CGC was or anything and I was like "This game is sweet". I chat with some kids that got into pinball very recently and now they are at the local free play shops. They love Cactus Canyon. It's something new to them too.

If you're pointing to AFM and MM as successes of non-licensed themes, you're cherry-picking. The absolute best of the best non-licensed titles can succeed, yes. But by and large, non-licensed themes are less popular and more forgettable. For every AFM and MM, there are loads more forgettable non-licenses like Champion Pub or NGG or whatever. You just don't remember them so they don't enter the discussion.

It's a bias of selective perception - you only notice the few successes, you don't notice the duds - but the company's balance sheet certainly does.

The reason I'm assuming Stern is using diffuse-reflective photoelectric sensors is if you look at how the spinners work the emitter and receiver are on the same board, they're reading off the spinner passing in front and bouncing the beam:

14-james-bond-only-play-twice (resized).jpg

I genuinely have no idea what they cost to build, maybe it's dirt cheap. If someone can actually show a comparable product I'd be curious to see an actual price, I've never used one. I know how to buy cheap LEDs already.

SW is a perfect point becasue so many people were crying in their dream journals when that thing came out; yet it's huge now

It’s literally a licensed theme though! CGC is paying a licensing fee to use the B/W assets.

If you want to talk modern unlicensed themes then Levi is right, you should be looking at TNA, Dialed In, and BKSOR (and even that last one is based on older IP and probably involved licensing!)

In terms of financial obligations, they paid a licensing fee. In terms of consumer brand recognition, for half of us, that recognition isn't there. My point was that alone. Good interview either way if you never saw it. Might want to check it out.