That’s good.
JJP TS4 LE is limited to 5,000 units
AP LOV LE is limited to 500 units?
LE doesn’t have the same meaning to all pinball companies

LE is just a FOMO marketing term designed to make you feel better parting with your money.

BS acronyms are super popular with some companies. One of the worst is Tesla FSD.

I consider the CE to be the equivalent of a GCG "LE". I don't even know why JJP calls their mid-tier a Limited Edition as I think it's confusing when the run of 5,000 is not that limited given a regular run of a title these days is likely around that number.

No. Never.

Cars and pinball machines couldn’t really be any more different. There is almost nothing about pinball machines- purpose, industry, production, marketing, shipping, resale etc etc - that has anything to do with cars.

It’s just the laziest thing on earth to compare things to pinball and people lack the imagination to even attempt any analogy without cars, even though they are almost never sound comparisons.

It’s not just pinball and cars. It’s everything. And cars.

The original pinball master pricing thread is still the best !!

I'm grateful to all the diligent Pinsiders who spend their time incessantly crawling for these threads and mocking them. As we all know (because they themselves told us so) this is the ONLY way to handle these threads. Because of their sacrifice, we NEVER see any other pricing threads anymore thanks to these truly selfless heroes.

It's such a mystery why a master thread might fail when the very people crying about too many pricing threads come into a dedicated one and STILL shit all over it. Such a wild, crazy mystery. Oh well some mysteries can never be solved, so back to unmoderated shitposting that has solved the glut of threads once and for all.

The answers you seek are all here, in the original Master Pinball Pricing thread. What you seek has been before you this entire time, hiding in plain sight!

There's literally 10 pages of gold here for you to sift through, which, when considered, will unlock all of the mysteries of pinball pricing.

Why does an Addams Family cost more than a Big Ben? When will the bubble burst? When will I be able to score a Monster Bash for the price of a second-hand VCR?

It's all in here. Perhaps you should do more reading and less complaining!

Who's complaining? I'm thanking you. You solved the problem once and for all and the results speak for themselves. Pinside is saved and it's all thanks to you. Here's to solutions that work and aren't just an excuse to boost our own egos!

Next time another pricing thread manages to sneak through this impenetrable fortress you've created, make sure you don't direct them to this thread. Don't request that the mods lock it and direct them to this thread. And whatever you do, if they do listen and come to this thread instead, make sure you still follow them here and continue harassing those trying to extend an olive branch and clean up the forum without being dicks. Don't let them breathe for one goddamn second. As we all know, the ONLY way to handle this is to muck up the forum with more mocking and shitposting.

There's always going to be similarities and differences with any two markets. Focusing on the differences doesn't negate the similarities. Supply and demand, and buyer psychology would be two examples of things that effect those two markets similarly.

If supply is low (like it has been), prices will be higher. If people are afraid that if they don't buy now they may miss out (like it has been), prices will be higher.

When supply catches up to demand, it'd be silly to say "prices never go down". We're already seeing it with lower used and NIB pins. And we're seeing it with lower used car prices. There's lots of info to be gleaned from looking outside the narrow world of the pin market!

You don't find the comparison to be a little fucking lazy, and in almost all cases, a total fallacy?

EVERYBODY compares EVERYTHING to cars. Why do they do this?

What does a pinball machine have in common with a car, besides the fact that you can buy or sell one and that there is some metal and plastic in both?

Nevermind.

Does anyone else think pinball manufacturers would do better if each new pin had its own pricing ? I know what they’re doing ,put out a loaded fan favorite and move the pricing to 7/9/11 then follow with something stripped down from the former at the same prices or raise the prices of back orders after the hike .It’s no big secret .I just think maybe by pricing a particular pin to the cost of manufacturing as a whole would be ideal .I would think this way they could reach more customers .Basically a Mando or LZ should not be in the same price range NIB as a GZ or JP being produced at the same time basically .If this doesn’t make sense please downvote as I’m at 98% thumbs up and nothing in life is that perfect

At this point, the price:

New JJP TS4 CE: $15000
New 2022 Base Chevy Spark $14595

I've read your post three times. Perhaps it's only because I've had 1/2 a cup of coffee, but I don't understand what you're saying. Are you suggesting selling each pin at a price directly tied to what each pin costs to make? Or sell them at lower prices as time goes on? My intrigue is surpassed only by my confusion.

Please advise

Probably because boh are big ticket items, collectible, and can be operated. The second hand buying process is similar and both have dealers for new.

A lot of the comparisons are valid. It just appears you have a disdain for cars, and that makes sense because you are a New Yorker that doesn't own one. Most of the rest of the country can relate.

Literally none of the comparisons are valid.

"Pinball collecting is just like classic cars."

No it fucking isn't!

Because they are subject to the same supply and demand market forces?

Because they sometimes are limited production, collectible and highly sought after?

But, most importantly, because sometimes you can use a car to pick up a pinball machine.

I would disagree with your points. Cars are NOT subject to the same supply and demand market. For most people, cars are a necessity. They literally need one to live any kind of complete life. This goes for most of you folks who don't live somewhere like NYC, which is about 97 percent of you. I think most of us would agree pinball machines are a toy, luxury item, that nobody really needs. You don't need a pinball machine to go to work. You don't need one to go shopping, or to drop off the kids. You don't need one at all.

For the "collectible car" market, I'd also posit there are very few similarities, beyond the nebulous idea that both are "collectible." WIthout exception, I'd say even the most expensive pinball machine isn't going to go near what the average car goes for. In addition, cars are much larger, requiring more space to store and to ship. I'd say the demographics of classic car collecting, besides being overwhelmingly white, are much different. Much older.

You don't need a garage or yard or a driveway or a spot on the street to store a pinball machine. You just need a little bit of space in your house or apartment. $600 can get you a working pinball machine, I'm no car expert, but I don't think you can get a similar classic car in that neighborhood.

Pinball machines are primarily commercial devices. I do not think that's true with cars. Every single pinball machine has this - you can set it up to take money, and stick it in a location, and it will earn. If you did that with a car, all it would do is depreciate.

Just spitballing here, but I simply don't see the parallels between cars and pinball machines. Beyond "its a thing you can buy and sell" but the same is true of gobstoppers.

We could argue about this all day I suppose. I mean, arguments are like cars. THey come in lots of different colors and people like different ones. Some arguments are bigger than others, and some are older than others.

But I digress...this is the master pinball pricing thread, not the master cargument thread. I suppose somebody should start one of those up?

Is there a way to pull historic data from the marketplace? I’m think I’m seeing the for sale pins starting to pile up. Thinking the peak past. It’s going to be a long(er) wait to sell 10k+ Pins and thinking used pin prices will be moderating in the next 6 months. I periodically look up games I own on the marketplace for value reference and last check I saw a 2-4x increase in inventory for most of my titles.

I'll weigh in on my use of the car vs. pinball machine comparison, tho no economics are involved. I've used these analogies several times when talking pinball machines with my car friends (I've restored both).

Classic Restorations
Both car enthusiasts and pinball enthusiasts can fall into camps ranging from "purists" to "anything goes" and everything in-between. You've got classic restorers for both cars and pins that will repair something broken before considering to replace any part, use only original parts before resorting to after-market, keep the patina of the car or pin vs repainting or repairing any surface areas that aren't critical to the infrastructure, and the like.

RestoMods
Just like putting a modern drivetrain into a '67 Chevelle to make it as reliable as new cars coming off the assembly line, you can do the same with many solid state pins by installing modern PCBs. Playfield blown? Put in a CPR. And just like replacing that worn out, beyond repair body on that Chevelle you can get newly manufactured pin cabs for classic Ballys and Sterns or use well-preserved donors to replace your termite infested originals.

Rat Rods
This seems to be popular in my area....guys taking abused SS pins with lots of cosmetic damage, patina, missing/damaged plastics, and "history" and make them run like a top with new PCBs, rubbers, flipper rebuilds, and the like. Pins plays like new, but looks like it's at death's door.

Over The Top Customizations
Just like the car guy that takes a classic 1956 Corvette and slaps on oversized tires for a lifted rake, paints the body in art deco colors and think's it's beautiful you've got the pin guy who puts clown puke LEDs in his STTNG and thinks the same. There's room for everyone in both hobbies.

One of the better analogies I like to use is discovering that bargain project you bought home has more serious issues than you thought as you start to peel back the layers. Then you've got to make that decision - do I pour more money in it to fix it (if it can be fixed), or do I cut my losses there and junk it or part it out.

The only economic analogy I'll put in is this: The guy who restored his car and the guy who restored his pin will each want too much money when it comes to sell as they "recoup" their "investment". I've been there too many times in both cars and pins - you restore for the love of the hobby and shouldn't expect to make all of your money back.

If it wasn't so comparable people would be doing it all the time. To most the comparisons make sense. Sorry you disagree, but many do not.

I've been a "car guy" for about as long as I can remember (maybe longer than I've been an official "pinball guy", but that just wasn't a thing when I started playing in the 80's because pinball was so ubiquitous then, so everybody was too), starting as a 7 year old trying to learn everything I could about them, reading about them, talking to car guys about them, lusting after my favorites.

I started out with heaps that I could afford, and worked on them and fixed them up, and sold them for a meager profit to move up. And I learned along the way, especially about what I liked. I've had more cars over the years than I can even remember (I'm under 40), and finally got my first "keeper" (A 1994 1LE Z-28) when I was 19 or 20. I built a motor for it (practically in my college dorm room, haha), and upgraded the brakes and suspension as time went by. I bought and sold other cars, a mix of hot rods and daily drivers, and everything in between, but held onto that Camaro, even as I moved around the country, and no matter how much it cost to store/insure/register in various states. When I eventually settled down back in my hometown and had a good job and a house with storage, I bought another vehicle that I had lusted after for years (not a Grand National, haha, but I'll have one again). For pinball people, replace the car part with pinball machine, and it's a pretty similar story for most people.

I think the "cargument" thing, at least with "collector" or special cars (not your run-of-the-mill appliance Toyota Camry), which I'm sure has been said here many times before, is that they are both mechanical objects, with moving parts, that you have to be a little savvy to understand and work on yourself. Both have nostalgia appeal, and are purely luxury items that make their owners feel good, and have little, actual, utilitarian purpose. Sure, you can take your collector car to work every day, but very few people do that. I'm very fortunate that I have the luxury of going out to the garage, and just being able to stare at two machines that I have sitting there, that I have lusted after for years, and they are mine. And I drive them too. Fellow car folks know exactly what I'm talking about. No different than guitar guys, gun guys, airplane guys, watch guys, etc., etc.

So for us "car guys" and "pinball guys", there's a lot of overlap, especially in the type of people that enjoy the aspects of both.

Now I have a sudden urge to go for a country rip in one of the steeds, haha.

> I would disagree with your points. Cars are NOT subject to the same supply and demand market.[/quote]

As recent events have revealed, cars are MOST DEFINITELY subject to the same supply and demand market. Hell, Chrysler pretty much invented new car rebates as an avenue to increase sales in the face of apathetic demand.

> For most people, cars are a necessity. They literally need one to live any kind of complete life.

A car may be a necessity but that necessity can usually be filled with a $16,000 Chevy spark. Many, if not most, people by a model of car because that's what they want, not because that is what they need. Does anyone really need a 755 hp crate LT5 corvette?

>For the "collectible car" market, I'd also posit there are very few similarities, beyond the nebulous idea that both are "collectible." Without exception, I'd say even the most expensive pinball machine isn't going to go near what the average car goes for. In addition, cars are much larger, requiring more space to store and to ship. I'd say the demographics of classic car collecting, besides being overwhelmingly white, are much different. Much older.

I suspect that the demographics collecting pinball machines are overwhelmingly white and much older.

Stop making sense

Maybe you guys can tell me what ISN'T the same as cars? Cause I don't think I've ever seen a single thing that people won't make a cargument about.

I'm looking at my desk...I see a computer, a phone, a pair of sunglasses, a box of tissues. Pretty sure by your criteria, these are all the same as cars?

Sunglasses - subject to supply and demand, you can buy shitty ones or expensive ones
Tissues - subject to supply and demand, you can buy shitty ones or expensive ones
Magazines - they make lots of different kinds for different tastes, they are subject to market conditions
Phones - subject to supply and demand, you can buy shitty ones or expensive ones

I think even you die hard cargumenters would agree you've cast a pretty wide net on this, no?

Patek Philippe = Bugatti Veyron = Stern Supreme = Gulstream G550 = House on the French Riviera?

Rolex Pepsi GM2 = Porsche 911 Carrera = JJPOTC = Beech Bonanza = House in the Hamptons?

Casio = Chevy Spark = Sharky's Shootout = Cessna 150 = House in Detroit?

I'm not even sure where I'm going with this...

Me neither...but I like it!!!

Coca-Cola = Subaru = Centaur = House in Austin?

I felt like you left a huge gap between Hamptons and Detroit

It's a pretty lazy comparison.

Everyone has one so thats what comes to mind?? thats about it really.

Both are expensive is about all I can come up with.

I remember a time when a cargument sucked because it didn't make sense. Now it sucks because it makes too much sense I guess. *shrug*

I remember a time when I could post here without cry havoc following me around every day in every thread I post in and posting really boring burns.

“Shrug.”

(Why is shrug in quotes?)

There's that paranoia. Again, there's pills for that. Just because I post in the same number of pricing threads as you do, and just because I don't agree with you, doesn't mean I'm following you. So weird.

And I give up, why did you put shrug in quotes.

Let the tissuememts commence!

I just thank the gods that you can’t mine cryptocurrency with WPC MPU’s

It's amazing how much more sense a thread like this makes when you turn ignore on for just a user or two. I can finally read most posts and think "Yeah, that's logical" and "Hey, where did all the constant venom go?"

Delightful!

I've done that too. Whole sections of anger and crazy, gone. It is nicer.

Are those weeds growing up on the side of that house? And a coal miner's sky?

(just kidding with you, I know the postcard image is to blame).

Thread got locked for some reason, so have at it here.

The “Banning Effect” as I call it is still alive and well in the pin marketplace.

It really opened the eyes of so many non-pinheads and the Banning auction exposed a lingering silent majority of John Q. Publics that have no idea that Pinside exists and had no idea that it was even possible to own a pinball machine.

The other day while volunteering at the Pinball Hall of Fame here in Vegas, a very nice gentleman asked me if there was any way we coujd sell him our South Park. He had just lost a bid for $8700 as it ended up selling for $9300.

I was flabbergasted at these prices he was throwing out and I thought for a min and asked, are you bidding on South Park online via eBay? He admitted this was indeed the case.

He was willing to offer the same $8700 for our South Park, which admittedly, is beat to hell.

He’s an average consumer. He has never heard of Pinside or the Pinside marketplace.

Of course we did not sell him our beater, but I did guide him over to Pinside to get educated and acclimated to the real world of pinball.

I think this is a sign of the economic times. People are spending gobs of money in very decadent ways without much apparent thought. This kind of widespread behavior never lasts, and never without a reversal. No one is going to look at a South Park during the next "financial hard times" and think it's worth $9k. I'll be eager to see what the "prices never go down" people will be saying at that point.

I think that's going to refer to the normal accepted range of prices for a pin, like the pinside price average range. Someone who pays way more than the normal market is going to take a bath if or when they sell. I am as eager as everyone to find deals.

Yes, you and a 100 other people over the past 20 + years are eager to see the same thing.

I'd like to ask: What do you see happening in the next few months/years that could effect pin pricing? For me...

-If the economy continues to get worse, we'll see less money for fun stuff like pins. Prices go down. I think we've partially seen this play out with most prices stabilizing.
-Manufacturers catch up with demand and clear backlogs. Less FOMO, prices go down.
-Manufacturers still can't get parts needed and tensions between the US and China get worse. Prices go up.
-A continued rush of interest into pinball. Demand and prices go up. BUT...
-...eventually, if that demand continues, prices will drop if manufacturers can move from niche manufacturing to mass/mainstream.
-The stock market plummets, and people feel less rich. Prices go down. (for the record, if the stock market dropped by half tomorrow I'd be listing all of my machines, selling most and investing that money)
-The economy gets worse and some pin manufacturers go bankrupt. I have a hunch this is pretty likely. The closing of manufacturers, by itself, would put upward pressure on pins.

What do YOU think? I'd love to hear your ideas (first) and have some conversation about the above.

Well, gas prices are falling and that means the cost of goods will get cheaper, which is already affecting inflation - which now looks like it has peaked and is stalled. So I expect inflation to begin falling as well. The economy is doing really well, in every metric but inflation, so I expect we won't have any big changes coming. Just things getting better, slowly.

I agree with both the supply chain catching up, and with China. But for pinballs that aren't new, which are the only ones I buy, it shouldn't matter either way. We don't seem to be having issues getting pinball parts for the older stuff. Beyond normal anyway.

I think the interest in pinballs keeps that market stable. I don't see any move by Stern or the others to greatly expand. It's still a niche market for expendable income.

The stock market is not going to plummet, so nothing I can add there. The market has been very approving of the numbers they've seen lately - like the 528K jobs added last month, beating expectations wildly. Demand for housing is still strong, and we have a chronic shortage of housing in a lot of national markets. IF the Fed doesn't overreach on interest rates.

The economy has been strong, so I don't see it getting anything but better - jobs are booming, people are making more, gas is falling, inflation is the one thing that needs to come down so we all feel the increase in wages. And it might be doing that, too soon to tell I think.

So to sum up, we have a stable market and a good chance that the falling gas prices also starts driving down the costs of goods. Slowly. I expect that pins remain where they are now, and start to uptick in prices with the usual fall / winter increase.

Of course, the Russian war is a big question mark. That's the most volatile thing, I think.