(Topic ID: 260761)

TPN: The Pinball Show Ep 29: The Great Fan Layout Debate


By ZMeny

7 months ago



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  • Latest reply 1 day ago by DS_Nadine
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    Topic poll

    “What title should CGC remake next?”

    • Twilight Zone 19 votes
      8%
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      20%
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      8%
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      2%
    • Tales Of The Arabian Nights 33 votes
      14%
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      8%
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      3%
    • White Water 11 votes
      5%
    • Cirqus Voltaire 10 votes
      4%
    • The Shadow 4 votes
      2%
    • Creature From The Black Lagoon 9 votes
      4%
    • Funhouse 13 votes
      6%
    • Cactus Canyon 34 votes
      14%
    • Radical :) 8 votes
      3%

    (235 votes)

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    There are 1793 posts in this topic. You are on page 36 of 36.
    #1751 9 days ago

    I must admit that even if I have complained about zmeny singing before, I listen to most of the stuff released. If Im in a good mood the damned singing is actually quite entertaining sometimes.

    #1752 8 days ago

    Need more Randy Neuman, lol.
    Also, the GnR mixed with the goat screaming was genius. I loved it!

    #1753 4 days ago

    The Pinball Show Episode 29: The Great Fan Layout Debate

    Hosts: Dennis Kriesel & Zach Meny

    - Stern Avengers: Infinity Quest Gameplay & Rules Reactions

    - Zach & Dennis Debate/Argue About Whether Avengers Is A Fan Layout (IT IS!)

    - Streaming Pinball Reveals

    - Avengers Topper Update

    - Elvira Topper News

    - deeproot Pinball Walks On Water

    - The Chicken Or The Egg: deeproot & Jersey Jack

    - Chicago Pinball Expo Cancellation

    - Segment: TPN's Dr. John Interviews Spooky Pinball Designer David Van Es

    - Pinball Market Trends

    - Deals Of The Week

    - Rock Stars Of The Week

    email: thepinballnetwork@gmail.com
    website: thepinballnetwork.net
    twitch: twitch.tv/pinballnetwork
    youtube: youtube.com/thepinballnetwork
    facebook: facebook.com/thepinballnetwork
    instagram: @thepinballnetwork
    twitter: @therealTPN

    https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-bzzt5-eb743f

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    -6
    #1754 4 days ago
    Quoted from ZMeny:

    The Pinball Show Episode 29: The Great Fan Layout Debate
    Hosts: Dennis Kriesel & Zach Meny
    - Stern Avengers: Infinity Quest Gameplay & Rules Reactions
    - Zach & Dennis Debate/Argue About Whether Avengers Is A Fan Layout (IT IS!)
    - Streaming Pinball Reveals
    - Avengers Topper Update
    - Elvira Topper News
    - deeproot Pinball Walks On Water
    - The Chicken Or The Egg: deeproot & Jersey Jack
    - Chicago Pinball Expo Cancellation
    - Segment: TPN's Dr. John Interviews Spooky Pinball Designer David Van Es
    - Pinball Market Trends
    - Deals Of The Week
    - Rock Stars Of The Week
    email: thepinballnetwork@gmail.com
    website: thepinballnetwork.net
    twitch: twitch.tv/pinballnetwork
    youtube: youtube.com/thepinballnetwork
    facebook: facebook.com/thepinballnetwork
    instagram: @thepinballnetwork
    twitter: @therealTPN
    https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-bzzt5-eb743f
    [quoted image]

    Had to shut this one off 22 minutes in. Garbage like this is why you don’t win twipy’s.

    #1755 4 days ago
    Quoted from gecko157:

    Had to shut this one off 22 minutes in. Garbage like this is why you don’t win twipy’s.

    Listening back at minute 22 I’m assuming you didn’t like that Dennis and myself disagreed on something? We aren’t aiming to win the TWIPYs so we are fine with that. Any constructive criticism you have that may help future episodes?

    #1756 4 days ago

    I'm with Dennis. It's not a fan layout, Zach.

    "A fan layout is a game with only 2 flippers and goals laid out in an arc at the top of the table. While every pinball game by its nature has a basic fan layout. Many break the pattern by including secondary sets of flippers to break up the shot mix."

    AIQ has a third flipper and not all the shots are accessible from the lower flippers, therefore AIQ is not a fan layout.

    Travis Murie (Marv Loco) made some very valid points regarding the reveal streams. I hadn't given it much thought until hearing his comments, but I do agree that there should be a higher level of professionalism versus the normal casual streams. I hope ALL of the manufacturers check out what he had to say.

    #1757 4 days ago
    Quoted from SKWilson:

    I'm with Dennis. It's not a fan layout, Zach.
    "A fan layout is a game with only 2 flippers and goals laid out in an arc at the top of the table. While every pinball game by its nature has a basic fan layout. Many break the pattern by including secondary sets of flippers to break up the shot mix."
    AIQ has a third flipper and not all the shots are accessible from the lower flippers, therefore AIQ is not a fan layout.
    Travis Murie (Marv Loco) made some very valid points regarding the reveal streams. I hadn't given it much thought until hearing his comments, but I do agree that there should be a higher level of professionalism versus the normal casual streams. I hope ALL of the manufacturers check out what he had to say.

    Appreciate the discussion man. However.... , your distinction above states that not all shots can be made by lower two flippers thus its not a fan layout. Tell me, which shot(s) is not accessible by the lower flippers?

    #1758 4 days ago
    Quoted from ZMeny:

    Appreciate the discussion man. However.... , your distinction above states that not all shots can be made by lower two flippers thus its not a fan layout. Tell me, which shot(s) is not accessible by the lower flippers?

    The inner loop off the upper left flipper.

    #1759 4 days ago
    Quoted from ZMeny:

    Appreciate the discussion man. However.... , your distinction above states that not all shots can be made by lower two flippers thus its not a fan layout. Tell me, which shot(s) is not accessible by the lower flippers?

    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    The inner loop off the upper left flipper.

    ^^^What chuckwurt said^^^

    #1760 4 days ago

    The only games I can recall that has a third flipper that I would still call a fan layout is hobbit and like satin doll. Haha

    Edit: and No fear.

    #1761 4 days ago

    Not sure how you would define games with upper and lower playfields though. I would say each playfield would be assessed separately.

    #1762 4 days ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Not sure how you would define games with upper and lower playfields though. I would say each playfield would be assessed separately.

    I was thinking about that, too. I would consider BKSOR pro a fan, but not the premium/LE.

    I'm thinking anything with an upper playfield would not be considered a fan just because they don't fit the definition.

    Things that make you go "hmmmm."

    #1763 4 days ago
    Quoted from SKWilson:

    I was thinking about that, too. I would consider BKSOR pro a fan, but not the premium/LE.
    I'm thinking anything with an upper playfield would not be considered a fan just because they don't fit the definition.
    Things that make you go "hmmmm."

    But I mean look at No fear or Munsters. No fear is a fan all the way imo. Munsters same thing. There’s definitely excepts to the rule imo.

    #1764 4 days ago

    No fear poster child for Fan

    #1765 4 days ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    No fear poster child for Fan

    Right so I don’t think the definition can be as black and white as having shot(s) that can’t be made by the bottom flippers

    #1766 4 days ago
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    #1767 4 days ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    The only games I can recall that has a third flipper that I would still call a fan layout is hobbit and like satin doll. Haha
    Edit: and No fear.

    I'll add Maverick to that list. You can hit all of the shots with the two main flippers.

    #1768 4 days ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    But I mean look at No fear or Munsters. No fear is a fan all the way imo. Munsters same thing. There’s definitely excepts to the rule imo.

    The Munsters is a fan layout (both playfields LOL). No Fear has shots not accessible from the lower flippers, right? (Upper flipper) Maybe it's a modified fan layout?

    So maybe we need to expand the terminology.

    Traditional fan layout
    Modified fan layout - what constitutes this, though?

    What's a layout called when it fits neither of those two categories? Or is it just fan and non-fan?

    I'd be curious to know what designers like Steve Richie, Pat Lawlor and Dennis Nordman's thoughts are on this.

    Maybe there is no real way to categorize all playfields by layout.

    I still maintain that AIQ is not a fan, though.

    #1769 4 days ago

    You guys and your categorization fetish.

    #1770 4 days ago

    I agree that Avengers is not a fan layout, BUT only due to one shot (the inner loop). Not based on how many flippers are in a game and not based on how far back the shots are on the playfield. My push during The Great Fan Layout Debate was one to consider other ideas instead of regurgitating terms based on history because “that’s the way it is”. Growth is found through testing over time what is considered common knowledge. I always appreciate Dennis’ knowledge and patience hahaha but also feel that people are quick to be sheepish without thinking for themselves. Just because something is always done a certain way doesn’t make it the right way.

    #1771 4 days ago

    I am glad to see AIQ now acknowledged to not be a fan layout. Don't know the purpose to this pivot about sheep and growth. During the podcast discussion the entire focus was just trying to cram the round AIQ peg into the square fan layout hole. It was very surreal.

    #1772 4 days ago

    I miss the days when Zach and Greg did more SDTM youtube videos, drank beer, and gave everything a b+. TPN is so complicated now. Not sure how much longer you can do it Dennis!

    #1773 4 days ago

    I love when Dennis gets pissed off. (Even better uncensored!)

    #1774 4 days ago
    Quoted from DennisK:

    ..Don't know the purpose to this pivot about sheep and growth...

    Thank you.

    #1775 4 days ago
    Quoted from ZMeny:

    Just because something is always done a certain way doesn’t make it the right way.

    Truer words have never been spoken. Just doesn’t apply here.

    #1776 4 days ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Truer words have never been spoken. Just doesn’t apply here.

    Still waiting on a definition that makes actual sense besides “that’s the way it’s always been described”. Based on the TPN Discord, sounds like the term isn’t agreed upon by anyone

    #1777 3 days ago
    Quoted from ZMeny:

    Still waiting on a definition that makes actual sense besides “that’s the way it’s always been described”. Based on the TPN Discord, sounds like the term isn’t agreed upon by anyone

    Quoted from Anim8ormatt:

    A fan layout is a game with only 2 flippers and goals laid out in an arc at the top of the table. While every pinball game by its nature has a basic fan layout. Many break the pattern by including secondary sets of flippers to break up the shot mix.
    2 prime examples of each type are medieval madness for fan layouts, and twilight zone for non fan layouts. Medieval madness has a great mix of loops and orbits to keep the game moving and interesting, while twilight zone has many technical shots and cross field targets to engage the player in addition to the main flippers "fan" layout targets.
    Hope that helps clarify the distinction.

    #1778 3 days ago
    Quoted from ZMeny:

    Still waiting on a definition that makes actual sense besides “that’s the way it’s always been described”. Based on the TPN Discord, sounds like the term isn’t agreed upon by anyone

    Fan layout:

    Generally a layout with only two flippers, where all shots from those flippers form a fan pattern across the playfield, resulting mostly returning the ball to the flippers via a ramp inlane return or an orbit return (Medeveal Madness, Attack From Mars, and Monster Bash are classic examples of a fan layout).

    Some games with more than two flippers may still be considered a fan layout, or “fan-nish”. These games include, but are not limited to, No Fear, The Hobbit, and Starship Troopers.

    Furthermore, some games that have only two flippers can be considered a non-fan layout by putting the ball on a path that is not consistent with traditional fan layouts. These games include, but are not limited to, Deadpool and Original Avengers.

    For situations where a game has multiple playfields (Wizard it Oz, AC/DC, Family Guy, etc), it is recommended to assess each playfield separately, but there is a certain amount of judgement that is needed in these cases.

    How’s that?

    #1779 3 days ago

    Limited a fan layout to only two flippers as criteria is already nonsense

    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Fan layout:
    Generally a layout with only two flippers, where all shots from those flippers form a fan pattern across the playfield, resulting mostly returning the ball to the flippers via a ramp inlane return or an orbit return (Medeveal Madness, Attack From Mars, and Monster Bash are classic examples of a fan layout).
    Some games with more than two flippers may still be considered a fan layout, or “fan-nish”. These games include, but are not limited to, No Fear, The Hobbit, and Starship Troopers.
    Furthermore, some games that have only two flippers can be considered a non-fan layout by putting the ball on a path that is not consistent with traditional fan layouts. These games include, but are not limited to, Deadpool and Original Avengers.
    How’s that?

    That’s more like it! Nicely done

    #1780 3 days ago
    Quoted from ZMeny:

    Limiting a fan layout to only two flippers as criteria is already nonsense

    That’s more like it! Nicely done Chuck Wurt!

    #1781 3 days ago

    What’s the fanniest of all the “fan” layouts?? Will Flip N Out offer fanny packs now??? #fanny

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    #1782 3 days ago

    Me while listening: "Ugh....Zach's singing again."

    Me two hours after listening to the podcast: ""Na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na na...she's got the look".

    #1783 3 days ago

    "He's added Mayo to this Cuban Sandwich... He's redefined Cuban Sandwiches..."

    No, what you've done is created an entirely different sandwich which is Cuban-ish.

    #1784 3 days ago

    Jessy Jay's Pinball Adventures Ep 6: Bachelors of Mutha Flippin Pinball

    Hosts: THE Jessy Jay & Sidepiece Ryan C

    - Jessy becomes the GC

    - Ryan's big secret

    - Pinjuries and tinnies

    - BOMP Part 1

    - Shitty themes which may actually be good

    - Gladiator vs Groundhog Day

    - Jessy has pointy knees

    email: jessyjaypinball@gmail.com

    website: thepinballnetwork.net

    https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-26dm9-eba2fe

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    #1785 3 days ago

    The fan layout heated argument reminded me of my parents fighting but in this case my step dad was right which makes it even worse.

    #1786 2 days ago
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    #1787 2 days ago

    Me (a newbie) listening when they say "who doesn't know what a fan layout is?"

    I thought it was like fan service in movies. Stuff put in just for people who have been fans in the past.

    Not, cool yourself off with folded paper old-timey fan.

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    #1788 2 days ago
    Quoted from gecko157:

    Had to shut this one off 22 minutes in. Garbage like this is why you don’t win twipy’s.

    You should ask for a refund Karen.

    #1789 2 days ago

    Top 3 With Orby: Young Gun Designers

    Orbital Albert discusses his top 3 young gun pinball designers.

    https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-rzrij-ebc47b

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    #1790 2 days ago

    Are there more than 3 in the industry?

    #1791 1 day ago

    I really liked the Top 3 with Orby! We could have all guessed who they Top 3 were BUT it was the commentary and why which I thought was awesome! Keep it up Orby!

    #1792 1 day ago

    Just Another Pinball Podcast Ep 11: Stop & Wow Me

    Host: Joel Engelberth

    Episode 11 - Where we discuss Pinball difficulty, a new rating system, more Avengers thoughts, TMNT 1987 custom code, Pinball Moments (tm), deeproot, and more!

    email: justanotherpinball@gmail.com

    website: thepinballnetwork.net

    twitch: twitch.tv/justanotherpinball

    https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-7byzg-ebc675

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    #1793 1 day ago

    Hey Zach. What about diving the show segments into multiple podcasts a week?

    So basically the weekly news show, your weekly market trends, Zach sings with goats etc.?

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    There are 1793 posts in this topic. You are on page 36 of 36.

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