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(Topic ID: 260761)

*NEW* TPN: Final Round Podcast: Saving Pinball w/ Josh Sharpe


By ZMeny

10 months ago



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  • 255 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 day ago by vireland
  • Topic is favorited by 91 Pinsiders

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    There are 1956 posts in this topic. You are on page 27 of 40.
    17
    #1301 5 months ago
    Quoted from DS_Nadine:

    JD and ZM really being "enemies" now (starting with that Jackbar misunderstanding)?!
    Sounds a lot like background quarrel about exclusivity agreements.
    (Wich is understandable, but very unfortunate how it went down.)
    But banning Zach from the stream,... uh... srsly?!

    Oh yeah, not to turn this into a bash-thread, but I think JD is a pretty garbage person these days for how he's been treating people (particularly Zach & Co). JD adopts this chill surfer-dude vibe on camera, but obviously behind-the-scenes he's something else. Which is sad, because he's done a lot for pinball and I used to love watching his streams. Now I'll only watch if he's doing a game reveal, but even then that's in spite of his presence.

    -

    On a positive note, I see AP is now posting links to the SDTM videos. So that was nice to see today, even if they were a bit late with it. It would be a shame if AP's relationship with SDTM was tarnished after this. Hopefully once the dust settles Zach and Greg can still work with them again someday.

    #1302 5 months ago

    Totally agree!

    20
    #1303 5 months ago
    Quoted from DS_Nadine:

    JD and ZM really being "enemies" now (starting with that Jackbar misunderstanding)?!
    Sounds a lot like background quarrel about exclusivity agreements.
    (Wich is understandable, but very unfortunate how it went down.)
    But banning Zach from the stream,... uh... srsly?!

    I think it goes back to when Jack danger made his " white boy's Club " comment when TPN first started , then the TWIP award and now this . My guess Would Be Jack told AP to take the gameplay video down , as he wanted to be the first with the gameplay . In my opinion Jack wants to be top dog and doesn't want to share the lime light and is jealous of Zack's influence in the community . How else can you explain Zach being banned from commenting on the stream .
    Keep up the great work Zach , you have a lot of support out here .

    #1304 5 months ago
    Quoted from screaminr:

    In my opinion Jack wants to be top dog and doesn't want to share the lime light and is jealous of Zack's influence in the community .

    Lord Danger can be a tad moody.

    #1305 5 months ago

    I mentioned this in your STDM thread but Hotwheels wasn't on my radar or a machine that I'd even consider before I saw your video. I was very impressed and felt like you showed off the machine in a more than positive light. I purchased a Houdini new in box and actually really liked Oktoberfest on location play. I'm not a big fan of cancel culture but this definitely left a bad taste in my mouth when it comes to AP.

    #1306 5 months ago

    "Pinball Market Trends Activated." Laughing so hard I started crying! I am re-listening to it now. Could not be more perfect to tell it how it is through another entity. Sorry to hear about how the AP video got hijacked. The first thing I thought of when I watched was how much work went into it. SDTM I prefer to watch over Dead Flip anyday.

    #1307 5 months ago
    Quoted from DakotaMike:

    Oh yeah, not to turn this into a bash-thread, but [...]

    I want to state clear that when I initially wrote that "enemy" thing (regarding "the Jackbar incident") I meant that as a joke.

    I kind of still hope this is a terrible misunderstanding.
    (Like JD "banned" Zach because of that Jackbar thing and it's just still active because he forgot?)

    With the thing that went down, I'd just say that was bad communication.
    I have no clue what really happened, so everything I say is purely speculative. But Corona puts most of us in a pinch, and if you watched JDs live streaming of TMNT, wich was at Twitch's front page, that viewer numbers were incedibly low compared to usual. Don't forget that he, as well as Zach for selling games, makes his living off of that and therefore I can fully feel he insists on beeing the first person to show the game in detail, if that is what was agreed on.

    That said I don't think the SDTM Videos or JD Streams add more to each other then they take from one another.
    I guess that was a quarrel about the leftover "scoop".

    The situation is unfortunate, BUT the nice thing is we don't need Kaneda anymore to stir up some drama!

    #1308 5 months ago
    Quoted from DS_Nadine:

    ...BUT the nice thing is we don't need Kaneda anymore to stir up some drama!

    Drama and pissy attitudes have been in the hobby looooong before topper talk and and hand tattoos

    #1309 5 months ago
    Quoted from TheLaw:

    Drama and pissy attitudes have been in the hobby looooong before topper talk and and hand tattoos

    I mean outside of pinside.

    #1310 5 months ago
    Quoted from screaminr:

    I think it goes back to when Jack danger made his " white boy's Club " comment when TPN first started , then the TWIP award and now this . My guess Would Be Jack told AP to take the gameplay video down , as he wanted to be the first with the gameplay . In my opinion Jack wants to be top dog and doesn't want to share the lime light and is jealous of Zack's influence in the community . How else can you explain Zach being banned from commenting on the stream .
    Keep up the great work Zach , you have a lot of support out here .

    When I saw that Jack / DeadFlip was going to do the "official" reveal stream for HW I thought it was a bad idea to have a Stern employee do their stream and they would have been better off getting a different established streamer to do it. I know D.F. probably has the largest number of subscribers but it's still essentially a conflict of interest. If there is still some kind of pissing contest going on between these two it's ridiculous but it sounds to still be the case. AP completely mishandled this though, don't know who there is to blame but having Zach pull and edit that video after they were asked to do it is bullshit. You can tell it took a lot of work to produce and it was very entertaining which I don't think I've ever said about an unboxing video before.

    #1311 5 months ago
    Quoted from bobukcat:

    When I saw that Jack / DeadFlip was going to do the "official" reveal stream for HW I thought it was a bad idea to have a Stern employee do their stream and they would have been better off getting a different established streamer to do it. I know D.F. probably has the largest number of subscribers but it's still essentially a conflict of interest. If there is still some kind of pissing contest going on between these two it's ridiculous but it sounds to still be the case. AP completely mishandled this though, don't know who there is to blame but having Zach pull and edit that video after they were asked to do it is bullshit. You can tell it took a lot of work to produce and it was very entertaining which I don't think I've ever said about an unboxing video before.

    Go back and watch the JP one. That’s great too.

    #1312 5 months ago
    Quoted from chuckwurt:

    Go back and watch the JP one. That’s great too.

    Good point, I do remember it and the first part at least is very funny.

    #1313 5 months ago

    I am going to continue to enjoy great content by zmeny, and also great content by deadflip, and leave drama for those two to work out. They both do great work for the community, both love pinball, and I am sure they can figure it out. No need to get sucked into it or pick a team.

    #1314 5 months ago

    I guess I'm confused by the nature of Jack's association with Stern. He is an employee of sorts of theirs, yet does other company videos too? Why would other companies have him stream their stuff when he clearly is in stern's pocket?

    #1315 5 months ago
    Quoted from DakotaMike:

    Oh yeah, not to turn this into a bash-thread, but I think JD is a pretty garbage person these days for how he's been treating people (particularly Zach & Co). JD adopts this chill surfer-dude vibe on camera, but obviously behind-the-scenes he's something else. Which is sad, because he's done a lot for pinball and I used to love watching his streams. Now I'll only watch if he's doing a game reveal, but even then that's in spite of his presence.
    -
    On a positive note, I see AP is now posting links to the SDTM videos. So that was nice to see today, even if they were a bit late with it. It would be a shame if AP's relationship with SDTM was tarnished after this. Hopefully once the dust settles Zach and Greg can still work with them again someday.

    Quoted from DS_Nadine:

    I want to state clear that when I initially wrote that "enemy" thing (regarding "the Jackbar incident") I meant that as a joke.
    I kind of still hope this is a terrible misunderstanding.
    (Like JD "banned" Zach because of that Jackbar thing and it's just still active because he forgot?)
    With the thing that went down, I'd just say that was bad communication.
    I have no clue what really happened, so everything I say is purely speculative. But Corona puts most of us in a pinch, and if you watched JDs live streaming of TMNT, wich was at Twitch's front page, that viewer numbers were incedibly low compared to usual. Don't forget that he, as well as Zach for selling games, makes his living off of that and therefore I can fully feel he insists on beeing the first person to show the game in detail, if that is what was agreed on.
    That said I don't think the SDTM Videos or JD Streams add more to each other then they take from one another.
    I guess that was a quarrel about the leftover "scoop".
    The situation is unfortunate, BUT the nice thing is we don't need Kaneda anymore to stir up some drama!

    The thing is, I don't hate anyone and I'm not really angry. I just dislike hypocrisy and two-facedness. I find JD's behavior lately to be frustrating, and I think his actions are hurting the pinball community and creating awkward situations. For instance, the SDTM videos and gameplay within, did nothing to take away from the HW stream. The SDTM videos just gave everyone a taste of the game, and then DF's stream was the main course. I saw the SDTM video before it got taken down, and it actually made me more excited to watch Jack's stream, not less. And yet JD still had to complain to American Pinball anyway, and I think that was a big factor in creating the awkward video-takedown and re-edit situation. And of course, AP shoulders much of the blame here too.

    But anyway, the Pinball Media roller coaster rides on! And it was great getting a new SDTM video with Greg, and it was nice to see him so involved in promoting it on social media. He's been on a bit of a hiatus for a while, and so I hope with these latest videos it means that he's back. Because I think everyone can agree we need more Greg and Zach being ridiculous together in pinball videos. Zach Meny and Greg Bone - The Wayne and Garth of pinball! Shwing!

    #1316 5 months ago
    Quoted from jorant:

    I guess I'm confused by the nature of Jack's association with Stern. He is an employee of sorts of theirs, yet does other company videos too? Why would other companies have him stream their stuff when he clearly is in stern's pocket?

    Good questions. My understanding is that he's a "contract employee" of Stern, meaning he isn't "technically" an employee of the company, even though he works for/with them all the time. And so I guess he uses that loophole to it's fullest. When JD inks deals to stream Stern's new games, he must have a non-exclusivity clause in there that still lets him work with other pinball companies too if he wants. Smart of him, not so smart of Stern. If I was Stern, I would probably not want him to stream-premiere competitor's games. And the thing is JD needs Stern more than Stern needs him--I think at least 90% of Jack's collection of pins are actually just loaners from Stern HQ.

    But I agree, Stern and JD do go hand-in-hand, and so I do think it's a little weird that AP would use him for their promotion. Kinda like how JJP doesn't use Dead Flip when premiering or promoting games. They've worked with Buffalo Pinball and SDTM in the past instead. Oh what tangled webs are weaved in pinball!

    #1317 5 months ago
    Quoted from DakotaMike:

    Good questions. My understanding is that he's a "contract employee" of Stern, meaning he isn't "technically" an employee of the company, even though he works for/with them all the time. And so I guess he uses that loophole to it's fullest. When JD inks deals to stream Stern's new games, he must have a non-exclusivity clause in there that still lets him work with other pinball companies too if he wants. Smart of him, not so smart of Stern. If I was Stern, I would probably not want him to stream-premiere competitor's games. And the thing is JD needs Stern more than Stern needs him--I think at least 90% of Jack's collection of pins are actually just loaners from Stern HQ.
    But I agree, Stern and JD do go hand-in-hand, and so I do think it's a little weird that AP would use him for their promotion. Kinda like how JJP doesn't use Dead Flip when premiering or promoting games. They've worked with Buffalo Pinball and SDTM in the past instead. Oh what tangled webs are weaved in pinball!

    This cuts both ways as Zach Meny sells both Stern and AP. If I was Stern, I would probably not want him to sell or promote other companies games.

    Just enjoy the free premium content from multiple sources.

    #1318 5 months ago
    Quoted from DakotaMike:

    Good questions. My understanding is that he's a "contract employee" of Stern, meaning he isn't "technically" an employee of the company, even though he works for/with them all the time. And so I guess he uses that loophole to it's fullest. When JD inks deals to stream Stern's new games, he must have a non-exclusivity clause in there that still lets him work with other pinball companies too if he wants. Smart of him, not so smart of Stern. If I was Stern, I would probably not want him to stream-premiere competitor's games. And the thing is JD needs Stern more than Stern needs him--I think at least 90% of Jack's collection of pins are actually just loaners from Stern HQ.
    But I agree, Stern and JD do go hand-in-hand, and so I do think it's a little weird that AP would use him for their promotion. Kinda like how JJP doesn't use Dead Flip when premiering or promoting games. They've worked with Buffalo Pinball and SDTM in the past instead. Oh what tangled webs are weaved in pinball!

    How that works out was extendedly explained to the fullest.

    Yes he's a Stern employee of sorts wich was agreed on by every other manufacturer before JD took the offer, because he wanted to still be the "pinball Ambassador" for all. - I think he does a good job with it and when the manufacturers don't care, why should us?

    #1319 5 months ago
    Quoted from Waxx:

    This cuts both ways as Zach Meny sells both Stern and AP. If I was Stern, I would probably not want him to sell or promote other companies games.
    Just enjoy the free premium content from multiple sources.

    Like the old days of Williams. They threatened heavy any distributors that wanted to carry Alvin G and Capcom games.

    #1320 5 months ago

    I'm not saying names but it sounds like the new marketing for AP slipped. It sounds from the interview on the Pinball Players podcast like they wanted the big reveal to be on Saturday with JD and the SDM show contradicted that. If they had just let it go it wouldn't have made a difference. For what its worth SDM did a better job of marketing for AP then they have done themselves. And it was free!

    #1321 5 months ago
    Quoted from DS_Nadine:

    ... because he wanted to still be the "pinball Ambassador" for all. - I think he does a good job with it and when the manufacturers don't care, why should us?

    But we love to navel-gaze, over-analyze, and find things to be upset about on Pinside! It's kinda our shtick!

    #1322 5 months ago
    Quoted from Waxx:

    This cuts both ways as Zach Meny sells both Stern and AP. If I was Stern, I would probably not want him to sell or promote other companies games.
    Just enjoy the free premium content from multiple sources.

    Lots of distributors sell games from more than one Pinball manufacturer now, the industry isn't really big enough to have a seperate set for each one and only the biggest distis are probably big enough to only carry Stern.

    #1323 5 months ago

    While I was not involved in all the conversations Zach had with the American Pinball team, from my perspective, and what I know, what Zach has said is not a totally accurate account of what happened, and as everyone knows there is always more than one side to the story. I'm not going to try address this here, but as I told Zach, I'm happy to come on a podcast to talk about Hot Wheels, and when that happens, I would certainly be open to talk about the rollout.

    -2
    #1324 5 months ago
    Quoted from rosh:

    While I was not involved in all the conversations Zach had with the American Pinball team, from my perspective, and what I know, what Zach has said is not a totally accurate account of what happened, and as everyone knows there is always more than one side to the story. I'm not going to try address this here, but as I told Zach, I'm happy to come on a podcast to talk about Hot Wheels, and when that happens, I would certainly be open to talk about the rollout.

    Give Kaneda’s podcast the scoop.

    12
    #1325 5 months ago
    Quoted from PoMC:

    Give Kaneda’s podcast the scoop.

    That would not be much different than what has happened so far, one side of a story being told. I'm not interested in drama, I'm interested in clearing up misconceptions.

    #1326 5 months ago
    Quoted from rosh:

    While I was not involved in all the conversations Zach had with the American Pinball team, from my perspective, and what I know, what Zach has said is not a totally accurate account of what happened, and as everyone knows there is always more than one side to the story. I'm not going to try address this here, but as I told Zach, I'm happy to come on a podcast to talk about Hot Wheels, and when that happens, I would certainly be open to talk about the rollout.

    I'd love to hear that podcast!

    #1327 5 months ago
    Quoted from rosh:

    While I was not involved in all the conversations Zach had with the American Pinball team, from my perspective, and what I know, what Zach has said is not a totally accurate account of what happened, and as everyone knows there is always more than one side to the story. I'm not going to try address this here, but as I told Zach, I'm happy to come on a podcast to talk about Hot Wheels, and when that happens, I would certainly be open to talk about the rollout.

    As a friend of mine, we would be happy to have you on to discuss Josh, but I was speaking on my platform just as AP was speaking and advertising on theirs and Jack Danger was speaking on his. I continue to enjoy Hot Wheels, have friends at AP including yourself, and am excited for people to get their games so they can share the enjoyment that Greg and I had raving it on our videos.

    #1328 5 months ago

    Oh snap. Things are getting interesting.

    #1330 5 months ago

    And I thought we were just going to discuss the new pin.....

    Who cares people!!!

    #1331 5 months ago
    Quoted from ZMeny:

    I was speaking on my platform just as AP was speaking and advertising on theirs and Jack Danger was speaking on his

    Yet, you are the only one using their platform to make (apparently misleading) accusations against others, thereby fueling speculation and rumormongering that ultimately hurt the pinball community.

    I can’t speak for the community as a whole, but I know I rely on you and others to do what you do to keep the community vibrant and industry alive. This sort of petty bickering and passive aggressive nonsense is a bad look For everyone involved.

    #1332 5 months ago
    Quoted from protocol_j:

    Yet, you are the only one using their platform to make (apparently misleading) accusations against others, thereby fueling speculation and rumormongering that ultimately hurt the pinball community.
    I can’t speak for the community as a whole, but I know I rely on you and others to do what you do to keep the community vibrant and industry alive. This sort of petty bickering and passive aggressive nonsense is a bad look For everyone involved.

    Zachs the only one you say?

    #1333 5 months ago
    Quoted from Hollywoodbone:

    Zachs the only one you say?

    Right dude,that’s almost funny!

    #1334 5 months ago
    Quoted from Hollywoodbone:

    Zachs the only one you say?

    I haven’t seen either of the aforementioned parties airing their dirty laundry or discussing inside baseball. Happy to revise my statement if that’s not true.

    #1335 5 months ago
    Quoted from protocol_j:

    I haven’t seen either of the aforementioned parties airing their dirty laundry or discussing inside baseball. Happy to revise my statement if that’s not true.

    Maybe theres some dirty laundry being aired, but the way I see it its his content. He did 100% of the work to create it so he should be able to do what he wants. Clearly he's doing it do drive sales so he can line his pockets (which is exactly what he should do). This is 100% AP's issue. If they didn't want anyone promoting their game then they should do it all themselves....AP sounds like amateur hour when it comes to promotion and content.

    #1336 5 months ago
    Quoted from protocol_j:

    Yet, you are the only one using their platform to make (apparently misleading) accusations against others, thereby fueling speculation and rumormongering that ultimately hurt the pinball community.
    I can’t speak for the community as a whole, but I know I rely on you and others to do what you do to keep the community vibrant and industry alive. This sort of petty bickering and passive aggressive nonsense is a bad look For everyone involved.

    He used his platform, not theirs. I think this is all getting blown way out of proportion though as I seriously doubt there is any animosity or ill-will between the main parties involved.

    #1337 5 months ago
    Quoted from PtownPin:

    AP sounds like amateur hour when it comes to promotion and content.

    Only in pinball can you get away with something like this. The pinball industry in general seems to operate in its own little bubble. The greatest marketing achievement of 2019 in pinball was when Zach Sharpe dressed up as one of the Munsters. That’s all you have to do. All those people at CES hoping to see all the latest technological innovations must have been so excited to see those big wooden light boxes with 30 year old technology on display. And even more excited that they were based on a 50 year old black and white TV show. These are the kinds of marketing choices you get from the leader of the industry, lol - pinball.

    #1338 5 months ago
    Quoted from pipes:

    The greatest marketing achievement of 2019 in pinball was when Zach Sharpe dressed up as one of the Munsters.

    Too bad the cost for those costumes came out of the code budget for the game

    #1339 5 months ago
    Quoted from bobukcat:

    He used his platform, not theirs. I think this is all getting blown way out of proportion though as I seriously doubt there is any animosity or ill-will between the main parties involved.

    No ill-will from sdtm. We were perplexed and I wanted to discuss on the podcast since there was confusion. Didn’t want Greg and I’s work to seem like we botched something or aired videos prematurely. That’s all. Moving on and looking forward to discussing the latest happenings in pinball with Dennis next week!

    #1340 5 months ago
    Quoted from ZMeny:

    No ill-will from sdtm. We were perplexed and I wanted to discuss on the podcast since there was confusion. Didn’t want Greg and I’s work to seem like we botched something or aired videos prematurely. That’s all. Moving on and looking forward to discussing the latest happenings in pinball with Dennis next week!

    Midweek?

    #1342 5 months ago

    Final Round Pinball Podcast Episode 10: Keith Elwin's Game #3 Revealed! (aka clickbait)

    Join hosts Martin Robbins & Jeff Teolis for this milestone episode

    - The week that was, including Martin's gameplay tips

    - KEITH ELWIN'S GAME #3 REVEALED

    - Discussion of the new game and more with a special insider

    - Topper Talk

    - Sponsor Of The Week #1: ULEKstore

    - The announcement of the biggest tourney EVER (on this show)

    - Sponsor Of The Week #2 (double digit show, double sponsors): Pinball Etiquette

    - Plus, recorded just recently a special tribute to the late Steve Epstein
    listen here: thepinballnetwork.net

    email: finalroundpinball@gmail.com

    Instagram: @finalroundpinball

    https://www.podbean.com/media/share/pb-4dpma-e03bfd

    6FAAFD07-0C5F-4007-B723-065DFC88C5D3 (resized).jpeg
    #1343 5 months ago

    I think that might be KME's actual quarantine hair.

    #1344 5 months ago
    Quoted from yancy:

    I think that might be KME's actual quarantine hair.

    Hahaha Only Keith could make a Golden Girls LE that would sellout day 1

    18
    #1345 5 months ago

    Hey all, I was told my name was coming up in this thread and just wanted to pop by to clear the air.
    I cleared this with AP.

    So there was a bit of confusion and unnecessary drama recently with the launch of a game last week as there was some mis-communication or mis-understanding between some media outlets and AP on the Hot Wheels launch, that apparently resulted in AP asking them to make changes to what they posted.

    Despite what some may say or believe, and despite my having made a comment about it, I was not involved in it, I was not some evil mastermind, I was focused on preparing for and doing a kick ass stream for the launch of Hot Wheels.

    I feel bad the AP folks are having to deal with this distraction vs enjoying the release of a great machine and they clearly worked long and hard on and I’m not loving getting pulled into this drama when I really was not involved.

    It was a great time with the Josh and Michael from AP, and yes a reveal with tequila is a good thing, and I look forward to getting my hands back on a hot wheels soon.

    Great unboxing vids, gents, I think we all created a great media rollout in the end. Excited for the next one!

    -2
    #1346 5 months ago
    Quoted from DeadFlip:

    Hey all, I was told my name was coming up in this thread and just wanted to pop by to clear the air.
    I cleared this with AP.
    So there was a bit of confusion and unnecessary drama recently with the launch of a game last week as there was some mis-communication or mis-understanding between some media outlets and AP on the Hot Wheels launch, that apparently resulted in AP asking them to make changes to what they posted.
    Despite what some may say or believe, and despite my having made a comment about it, I was not involved in it, I was not some evil mastermind, I was focused on preparing for and doing a kick ass stream for the launch of Hot Wheels.
    I feel bad the AP folks are having to deal with this distraction vs enjoying the release of a great machine and they clearly worked long and hard on and I’m not loving getting pulled into this drama when I really was not involved.
    It was a great time with the Josh and Michael from AP, and yes a reveal with tequila is a good thing, and I look forward to getting my hands back on a hot wheels soon.
    Great unboxing vids, gents, I think we all created a great media rollout in the end. Excited for the next one!

    Very interesting. Since you've cleared the air on the Hot Wheels rollout, could you also clear the air on your relationship with other pinball media outlets and personalities? You've very publicly argued with and initiated a lot of drama with Zach and other members of his circle on social media. I'd love to know what your goals are, and if you are still committed to being a Pinball Ambassador for All?

    If so, would you be willing to publicly declare your desire to put aside any differences with other pinball media outlets and with other other pinball personalities? And could you commit to just trying to get along with everyone in the community? I'd love for the positive attitude that you project on stream, to extend to the rest of the pinball community, including people associated with FNO, TPN, and SDTM.

    It'd be awesome if everyone could just hug it out, and try to move forward with mutual respect. Pinball was certainly better off before the bitterness and arguing kicked off.

    13
    #1347 5 months ago

    Sigh, it was bound to go down this road no matter how diplomatically Jack worded it.

    #1348 5 months ago
    Quoted from DeadFlip:

    Great unboxing vids, gents, ....

    Ahhhh Shit...GENTS?!?! You gonna take that shit Zach?!?

    Quoted from yancy:

    Sigh, it was bound to go down this road no matter how diplomatically Jack worded it.

    Bet you didn't see THAT coming

    #1349 5 months ago

    I’m camping out here for when the “yo momma” jokes start.

    #1350 5 months ago

    I guess pinball was destined to eventually get the same youtube drama that console and PC gamers have had to deal with? With popularity comes bullshit...

    If the new game reveal is legit, someone please post it here for the rest of us who don't watch any of this stuff.

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