It is a weird market bubble right now. There is the restoration/nostalgia crowd and the new pin crowd. Both are tied to nostalgia obviously, but the restoration crowd bubble will pop in less than 10 years, as the supply is drying up and there is zero demand by the current 20-somethings to own or restore a Pinbot or a Funhouse. Sure they're having fun in barcades, but there is a certain hip factor to that and it won't last like it would if they had grown up with them. If they played anything growing up, it was late 90's and early 2000's games, and not many arcades still cared about pinball at that point. They're also not all beat to shit like 80's/90's games are. When they finally have the $$$ to own something expensive, it won't be a pinball machine.

Let's just face reality, this is a bubble, but a nice one. Enjoy it! Have fun at the tournaments if you're into that. Just be reasonable about the value of the items you own, they're not going to appreciate in value. If I cared only about the cash value of what I owned, I'd sell all of my machines right now. I know that in 10 years, they'll probably be worth 1/2 or less of what I paid for them.

Products need to become cheaper to expand the market. Pinball only becomes more expensive.

There also needs to be a completely out of left field theme like Angry Birds or Minecraft to really find new fans.

Yes we have Stern, JJP and some small companies and the internet and other resources not available in some eras including the internet. Yes there is more information, forums, and networking in this hobby than at most times past. However, prices for new games and really nice condition "A" and some "B" level used games has gone really expensive and some have left fr those and other reasons.

Until recently, all we had was Stern in the past 15 years making pins. I'm not bashing Stern at all, it's much thanks to that company and to Gary Stern that we have had pins to look forward to since B/W and Gottlieb closed in the 90's. I'm so glad that company has survived in an age when no was else was making pins. Stern, JJP, and the other companies starting up give us topics to talk about and new pins.

HOWEVER, my worry as I've stated elsewhere, is do you think the current generations of kids when they become adults will be playing, buying, and collecting pins? I'm sad to say, I don't see it happening, much as I wish to. The difficult question is, if today's pinball world is somewhat golden, what will it be like in the next generation or two?

What arcades?
What leagues?
What pinball shows?
There is only one pinball show in Australia per year
I do visit oother pinball friends, but gatherings happen rarely

I'd kill for a FH. I LOVE that game. Just because I didn't play them when they were brand new in the early 90s doesn't mean I can't start developing a nostalgic feeling for the game in my 20s. Never played Pinbot, though I'm sure I'd enjoy it.

I hear what you are saying, 2 or 3 years ago the base was growing, in decent numbers, including us.

I just don't see it today, in large part due to the huge increase in pricing during that time. I paid $5200 for a Lotr Le back in 2011, NIB. Now that same pin with upgraded lighting would be sold today by Stern for at least $7500?

There is no catalyst or driving force to make the numbers grow. Certainly not tournaments and shows. The other issue for me about adding any more pins is that you have to keep them working! Working on two pins versus a dozen makes a big difference.

Jack thought he would sell thousands of Woz pins back in the beginning. It's not Ac/dc and doesn't cater to everybody.

Stern thought there was 799 STLE's to sell through to the end user. There wasn't. Now they are looking at 500 TWD LE's. That tells you all you need to know right there.

The demand is simply not increasing and you still have the huge hurdle of overseas sales at the much higher prices. I just don't see it happening.

Does anybody really think that these guys can keep pumping out LE's and premiums at these prices and people will keep gobbling them up. No way that happens. Wait until MMr, TH, TBL etc. actually filter into the market.

JJP has made a huge investment in overhead that they have to recoup. Stern is about to move into a new high dollar facility.

Pinball is getting a lot more expensive, not cheaper. Like Ben said, you need cheaper to grow. How does a $5200 LE sound? Dreaming.

The majority of kids out there have little or no interest in pinball at all, sad but true...this hobby will die a slow death with this generation.

I disagree that we (the 30 to 40 year olds) are the last pinball generation. I'm involved in a few leagues and there is a slow but steady influx of the younger crowd getting into pinball. From the early 20s professionals who discovered it through Pinball Arcade (quite a few of them), to the teens and even a number under the age of 10 who are now competing here in Australia. Additionally, look at PAPA and IFPA with the young guys coming in and competing at the top level.

Will it explode and become a huge thing again? Probably not. But the doom and gloom stories of pinball fading away to nothing with the 'old guys' is flat out not going to happen. The evidence is all around us.

It will need a massive change of attitude amongst the kids to sway them to become future pinball owners.
Every kids party we have had we have always had the pins running, sure the kids play them for a bit and it's a bit of a novelty but they don't last long and are all soon back to the xbox , playstation or other activities.
The adults are a different story, can't get them off them.

Put it this way, if I told my kids I was selling my pins and not buying anymore they would shrug the shoulders and couldn't care less but if I told them I was selling the xbox, playstation, pc games, etc to help fund a future pin and that the consoles would not be replaced.....well all hell would break loose!

Lol, nailed it!

…and I'm happy that they will ignore you.

Minecraft is the ugliest visual vomit I've seen in gaming….there are more appealing all-ages themes to base a pinball machine on.

I wasn't going to post in this thread, but I couldn't disagree more. I have friends in their 30's who love older games, and my 15-year-old son enjoys the 80's pins as much as the DMDs. Since the supply of 80's pins is capped at the current supply, I think the restoration of these games will still be booming in 10 years.

Using myself as an example: I was born in 1964, and I'm mostly interested in games from '73-'90. Even if people my age stop collecting when we turn 60 (doubtful), the 70's EM restoration business still has another 10 years to run. Now apply that logic to 80's pins, and I think another 20 years would be realistic. You also have to account for the fact that new grads can't afford to buy new pins. Will the B/W 90's B-list games take the place of 80's games as "starter" pins for young folks? Maybe, but if system 11 prices sag, I'll be scooping them up with both hands.

Yep. It sucks. I'll get there eventually.

Great example, and here's a funny story: my 43-year-old non-pinball buddy asked me a few days ago if $6k was too much for a FH. I quickly set him straight - no more than $3k unless it's really nice. But it illustrates the fact that people like great games, whether they're brand new or 25 years old.

Four years ago, there were no leagues, tournaments or shows in GA. It was fewer than 10 people that made all of those things come to pass. And before that, there were just a few of us who would open our houses to strangers. It's pretty remarkable how few people it takes to spark a revolution. Anyway, if we can make all of those things happen in Georgia, I know that you guys can make them happen in Australia.

I'm not so sure that measuring a kid's interest in pinball now will be a good indication of what their interest in pinball as an adult would be. From childhood up through a few years ago (mid 30s) I spent most of my leisure time either playing video games or sports and the thought of buying a pinball machine had never occurred to me. Now I'm about to buy my 5th machine and I spend far more time playing pinball than I do video games (and half the video game time is Pinball Arcade). People's interests change over time is all I'm saying.

The first pinball expo is coming up in mid November, are you coming to that? Do a search on Aussie Arcade. I have my ticket, I'm coming over from Adelaide. Newcastle have an event in September, too. There are plenty of IFPA tournaments now running in Australia, these are great meets of 20-30 people. A few years ago there were only a dozen Australians registered with IFPA, now there are more than 600!

On topic, I think the key is to get young people playing, or pinball will die with our generation. I am building a 7 machine collection in my garage I am renovating for this purpose. I plan to get a lot of people over, coach them about basic flipper skills, show them how to play individual machines, and then run some private beginners' tournaments. Most beginners have no idea that you can 'aim' with the flippers, or that pinballs have 'rules'. Once they get a taste for this, they start to get interested.

A mate of mine in his late 30's never played pinball til he started coming over to my place, now he's hooked and he's bought two project machines of his own which he has restored and is coming along to local IFPA tournaments and having a crack.

Pinball is a lot of fun, it just takes a commitment from beginners to keep playing until you get your skills to a level where you start to feel some mastery over the machine and get a sense of accomplishment. The real trouble with machines on route (aside from the fact that many need a decent service to be fun) is that beginners have to pay 75c or a dollar for 2 mins of entertainment. That is prohibitively expensive. Back when I was a kid in the 70s it was 20c a play in Australia, and I could win 3 or 4 credits in a single game. So on 40c pocket money I could get hours of entertainment and develop my skills.

I think The Pinball Arcade has a lot to do with the current resurgence. I hadn't played pinball for 20 years, but TPA on the iPhone got me going again, 18m later I now have 6 machines. Hopefully it will bring in some young ones, too. It is our job as collectors to open up our collections to these new players and get them hooked. And when they get a taste for it, I tell them to download TPA on their phone or tablet or xbox and have some fun. It helps build and reinforce the pinball experience.

8000$ nib machines will be enough stimulus to guarantee pinball growth is near impossible. builders greed and our stupidity paying these prices is to blame. i just hope pinball doesn't price itself into oblivion and choke on its own vomit.

Your message came across as mixed to me. You started well by saying pinball hasn't peaked, then you calmly suggested pinball will never reach it's previous peaks. That's what pushed my button. Why can't it come back even stronger now than it did in the 70's or 90's? If you're going to get on the bandwagon, go all in. Don't say it can only get a little better.

You say it's tough finding games on location in your area. Have you considered putting some of your games out? Beaumont is a big city. If there are only two locations in town, it shouldn't be hard to solicit new ones. Pinball is popular right now, as you've noticed. Operating games is just about the best way to support the hobby. There isn't much more room for growth on the collector side. So if we want to keep the hobby growing, we need to recruit non-owners. I currently have all my games out. Not a single game at home.

Besides operating games for years, I also play on location regularly. I also run my own pin repair business, bring games to shows and tournaments, volunteer for PAGG (a fund raiser for local charities), have helped set up and run tournaments for years, compete in tournaments, have played in the local league regularly and maintain the most games at the local league's primary location. I also help other operators in the area.

Yesterday I helped Rick Stetta setup his cherry 1963 Gottlieb Sweet Hearts in Paul and Harvey's bar in Sunnyvale Cal. I told him he's crazy because he can't set it for more than 25 cents a game (the dime slot is taped closed), but he won't listen. He's an even bigger location nazi than me. Doesn't care about the money, just wants games out there being played. If we're really serious about pinball making a comeback, we need more guys like Rick.

Interesting thread. My two cents:

I think there are two issues here. Pinball as a game and pinball as machines.

Pinball as a game has a much lower barrier of entry than it originally did, due to virtual pinball simulation. Many of my friends (mid-30s) play pinball, but hardly any actually play a real pinball machine. Pinball Arcade, Pinball FX2, various pinball apps, all the PC pinball games (past and present)... these are the venues of The Now. So long as good historic games are translated (a la Pinball Arcade) or new games are created (a la Pinball FX2), there is the opportunity to expose new generations to the game and how it works. Except now, dozens of tables are accessible, and money is almost no object.

Looking at how well Pinball Arcade's Kickstarter efforts have gone to bring back certain licenses, and the continued support Pinball FX2 receives (new generation of consoles just got it, a new table was just released based on Guardians of the Galaxy), the video game world is treating pinball as niche but accessible (there are other video game genres that get far less distribution and exposure than pinball does). There aren't a lot of developers, but those who are active in the field are seen as bringing some of the most accurate pinball physics and design the video game world has ever experienced (of course, opinions vary).

So, as a game, pinball has the means and ability to attract new people into its fandom. I have no idea if it will succeed... maybe if they get it together like the fighting game community, start pushing the use of Twitch and announcers and regular broadcast of major tournaments (I'm seeing more pinball on Twitch now, but it is a drop in the bucket), they could key in on what the younger generation is into on the competitive gaming front.

As machines, however, I think the heyday is gone. Prices were prohibitive for a lot of people even before recent years. Space obviously is another big issue. Coupled with the fact that arcades are also way past their heyday (at least in the U.S.), there's really just not many places where someone could get exposed to multiple pinball machines unless they deliberately sought such a place out. Which is of course unlikely unless they already were interested in pinball.

I think there's a big enough niche market to see a few manufacturers continue to make pinball machines for the foreseeable future. In fact, the game room/rec room demand may be enough to keep at least one player around for a long time, especially if they are past their upfront investment costs and can continue to get away with using the same old technology. But, the ability to attract lots of new, younger people into pinball to the degree that they'll actually spend the money on machines... unlikely.

At best, virtual pinball could become an e-sport. Perhaps, if the similarities are strong enough, players could transition between physical machines and virtual machines, and tournaments could revolve around both. But I think video-game pinball is the only way you're getting any sort of sizable infusion into the game.

Analogy from last week. I was talking to my brother-in-law about a pinball table and noted the seller was asking for $8k. He (someone who actually played these machines in arcades and is fond of the game) immediately said, "I'd rather buy a car." His nostalgia isn't strong enough to overcome the issue of dropping several thousand dollars on one game. I bought him 21 tables in Pinball Arcade that day, thanks to Steam's Labor Day sale I spent $15 on that. If he wants more, he can get the rest of the entire library, at regular price, for less than $60. My cheapest (quasi-)working pinball machine cost me $150 (1950s EM). The math does not favor pinball as a machine, especially when compared to the price of modern gaming options.

Given the shift from arcades to home entertainment, the only way I see pinball machines ever seeing a serious comeback is if some major advances in reduced-cost production occur and dramatically lower prices to the consumer are the result.

There is no need for such vitriol. There are tons of affordable machines out there. The NiB LEs are not the only games in the world.

Coin op once made more money than Hollywood. Plenty of room for growth. But not on the collector side. How many households in the country do you suppose can afford to buy a $4500+ toy for the house every year or two? A pinball machine in the home is a very expensive luxury item.

When pinball made more money than Hollywood for years, there were no collectors. Everyone played on location. This likely won't happen again (collectors are here to stay), but there's unlimited room for growth among non-owners. That's where we need to be recruiting.

Success is often measured by money. I believe the "peak" of pinball was in 1979 with over 2 billion dollars in revenue. Pinball will never be that popular again. But today, thirty five years later, my love of pinball could not be any stronger. My peak is simply playing...

Sadly where I live I know there are two other collectors like me
I have not met either of them nor do they use either of the two Australianpinball forums

I did try to have a meet years ago, only oone guy turned up>

Are..... ???I think that started about 2.5 years ago D:

i still believe nib machine prices are getting to the point of killing any chance of this hobby getting to the next level. this is my opinion of the ramifications, and not "vitriol"

I think another potential problem that is going to lead to the down fall of pinball machines is physical up keep. There are already a ton of parts for various games that are unobtainable. Whats the stock going to look like in 10 to 15 years? No to mention some of the electronics inside are going to be pushing 30-40 years old.

On top of that the 'Old Timers' that know theses machines inside and out are getting older. Whats going to happen when they are gone or when they don't want to be hanging on a forum all the time? Who's going to help the new guys troubleshoot problems? You can already see the knowledge starting to take a dive regarding EM repair. Fewer and fewer people know how to repair those machines.

We are seeing an influx of newer buyers that know little to nothing about basic electronics, shopping machines, or repairing mechanical problems. I mean that as no offense really, but there is a lot under the hood that your average user has no knowledge of or wants to learn. So whats going to happen when documents and resources start disappearing and people can no longer fix problems on their machines?

LMAO I missed that one. LOL

NIB prices will stay the same or continue to rise as long as people keep blindly throwing money at them. Before game play or a playfield is shown people put down payments or have paid for machines in full. Even though time and time again they have been burned with incomplete codes, shoddy parts, or delays in shipping they continue to line up. I can't think of any other hobby in which a manufacturer enjoys that type of luxury. Even Apple nerds don't wait in line without seeing pictures of the newest model first.

If you take the price of a NIB from '93 and adjust the price based on inflation $5000 is inline. The difference is that today's pin people are buying is rarely used to put on route and make money. If you want a cheap pin to put in your house buy "The Pin" from Stern or request them to make "Batman - Standard" they put at some Costco stores.

Not sure where you were going with this, but just to reply to your points regarding 'what's out there' in Australia (specifically NSW which is where I live);

Leagues: Sydney has 3 very active leagues that you can pretty much fill your calendar with. Pinball HQ meets every Wednesday with a final on the last Thursday of the month. Z Ball meets every first Tuesday of the month with a number of mini meets and comps over the month too (marathons, pub crawls etc) and gives away a pinball machine as the yearly prize (Z Ball is in it's 10th year). And Wildball League meets approx once a month. All of these are IFPA endorsed.

Pinball 'shows': Depends what you define as a 'show'. Pinball exclusive? Pinfest annually, and now Pinball Expo happening end of this year. But do you count things like Supanova and PAX as a show? The Australian Pinball League and AMD always have a booth with about 8 machines.

Competitions: Too many to list. Usually run by the APL but also one off comps all over the state.

I think my point is, at least here in Sydney, there are more pinball events than I can attend, and I attend a lot of them (just ask my wife). In the last month alone I attended 6 competitions and some of those attracted 14 of the top 20 players Australia wide (and not counting Pinball HQ league as I didn't go to that this month). Having a week where there is not a pinball comp or meet is actually rare.

IMO, we need the economy to finally turn around.

Pinball has grown the last several years through a pretty crappy economy.

Get us a booming economy and I think pinball will expand even further.

No......if you want a cheap pin to put in your house buy one from the 90's........or 80's.......or 70's.........or...........

I keep forgetting that Australia is a huge country. It would be like spreading the Georgia pin collector population over the entire US continent and expecting them to get together.

that's a better way of putting it. but when you use phrases like "greed and stupidity" and "choke on its own vomit", yeah, that's called vitriol.

it does depend where you live
Sydney does have events
Adelaide people are a great bunch and very friendly
I live an 1 1/2 hours from Melbourne, most people there keep to themselves, pinball politics is partly to blame
but once you do get to know them they are also a good bunch of people

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This

How many people have no space at their homes for new/different games, just gotta try to keep putting as many games out in the wild as we can. If you route it, they will play!
hehe

also would add Forums like this where we can learn how to maintain and trouble shoot our machines so that those that are 20+ years in age stick around for another 20+

Well, I don't mean any disrespect....but (and saying JOKINGLY) "Blah, Blah, Blah".

What I mean is, there is only a very, very small percentage of the pinball community who understands what you are saying here. I can't really put a number on it, but I venture to say way more people play/buy EMs, older solid states, even 90s Bally Williams games, and could care less or understand what this terminology even means ("LE" "MMr" etc...)

There is a lot of pinball community/collectors/players that cannot simply relate to, or understand, the few paragraphs you posted here. The things you are saying are really a non-factor to folks like me, collecting 1980s games and playing a few pins in the wild at barcades. While you and a few others might understand what you posted, I think very little of what you said can be assumed to be the "pulse" of the entire pinball community.

Repost your post in the EM sub forum and you are likely to get crickets, yet those folks tinkering with $300, 30+ year old games are still a huge part of what makes the pinball hobby go 'round.

Hope I made some sense there.

Bet that's not true as here you are reading and posting ; )

the peak was in the 1970's . when games were everywhere !

Earlier!

2.jpg

They will learn. No one walks into a hobby knowing everything they need to know. You also mentioned documentation... the internet has led to far better documentation of, well, EVERYTHING. Most manuals and schematics, repair information, parts sources, etc are little more than a click away.

Cheaper products=More maintenance & repairs!!

I am 35 and had not played a pinball machine that I can remember growing up. I just thought it would be cool to have one in my den (something different) and found a place about 2 hrs away that had several. With pretty much no research and no experience I ended up buying a Tron because I thought it looked cool and I somehow started multiball while trying it out. So that was my first game in late 2011.

The pricing will all work itself out as when the price gets too high people will quit buying. If people continue to buy they will end up broke with a pile of credit card debt and will be out of the hobby. My largest concern is that newer games are not built to bring in new players. I have a WOZ and I love it, new people come over and it's the first game that they go to but they quickly walk away from it. It's overwhelming to them and they have no clue what to do. Most people think pinball is just hitting a ball as many times as possible, they have no idea of the deep rulesets and how complex the games are. I say this as a fact because it took me 6 months to figure out some of the rules of Tron. Once I learned there was a lot more to it I was amazed at how deep and difficult some games are. It does not help that very few pinball machines come with rules or any explanation of how to play the game. So when a new player walks up to a game in someones home setting the owner can at least try to explain what is going on. In a barcade or anywhere on route someone pays $0.75 or $1 and it's over quickly and they have no idea what just happened. All of the newer games are geared towards advanced players because most of the games are going into homes. When I have family or friends over people play all of my machines but there is always a line in front of whitewater. How could that be? It's old, it's not a recent movie, it doesn't have a crazy light show. It's the most played because a new or casual player can understand what they are attempting to do pretty quickly. They can understand it because it tells you what to do next and the rule set is very straight forward. The callouts are very clear. Most people have been rafting so they can relate to the theme. The upper playfield shots are full and they feel like they have accomplished something when they make them.

I think if the non home use market is going to grow they have to start making some games with easier to understand rulesets that will not make new players feel lost or like they just waisted $1. I love deep games and there is a market for those but not every game should be this way. If you look at the top 5 games many are not deep at all and are very simple to understand and play. They are just pure fun. That's just my opinion on what needs to happen to grow hobby and from what I have noticed in my own home from new players. I'm not saying remove toys and have empty play fields. Have lots of toys but make a rule set that is straight forward. I still have no freaking clue what I'm doing when I try to play AC/DC or TZ and it makes then not overly fun to me. I want to play them but I can't figure out what I'm supposed to be doing.

I think the upkeep will be a problem for some people as I was afraid of it as well. But I quickly learned a few things and it's not rocket science. As long a parts remain available any mildly skilled person can handle most repairs. But it is something that needs to be considered before buying pins. I spend one saturday morning a month tinkering with stuff and waxing/adjusting things. No big deal to me as I actually enjoy it and feel an increase in confidence with every repair that I'm able to make. Each new thing that breaks teaches me something and increases my repair skills.