I don't know as an computer engineer. I can safely say the engineering required for that level of complexity is like a two week project for an college intern (ok maybe 2 weeks for a fast intern to whole summer for a slower one)

I mean if they were designing all the electronics that's another story, but certainly they are just re-using existing node boards and hardware. The tooling for mechanical development can be (and probably is) 3d printed first, but I'm sure it's a no-brainer for their existing engineering department and their CAD software I'd doubt more than 1-2 weeks max effort max for the mechanical engineers full life cycle. Definitely a large initial cost for professional production etc but if your estimates on sales is correct and that seems likely. that's a 1.8 gross revenue before costs I mean that's not a ton of money but it's a healthy margin for the amount of actual work I imagine to make it. That said I'm not complaining everyone wants to get the max they can get for their product, it only makes sense. It doesn't surprise me people will pay for it when they also are dropping 7-10K on a "game".

I'm actually curious how far they can push the pricing on this stuff. I"ve never been a fan of mods or toppers recently but now I'm modding my games like crazy and I just got my first topper the other day so I'm sure I'll be heading down that rabbit hole... sigh

I'm also curious how much the wholesale price is vs the end user price, just from a business standpoint.

Not a Rush fan, not interested in the pin...but dayam I like that topper.

I may need to get out of the pin hobby and just collect cool toppers. Cheaper and take up less space!

I wonder if this topper somehow connects into the ramp and node 10 board?

More than likely it has its own node board. I say the node 10 board as it has gears so more than likely it has a stepper motor and we know the node 10 board has a stepper motor driver.

My AIQ has a node board and 2 simple led driver boards (or it looks like that from a quick look) and just a few physical led lights.

Disappointed with this new code

Extra Ball:
- Removed the EXTRA BALL award at 69 ramps.
- Removed the LIGHT EXTRA BALL award from the pool of mystery awards.

For the 69 ramps, I’ve only reach one time (74 ramps)

But for the mystery pool awards it’s unfair. So you buy the topper or you lose potential extra ball.

No update for me.

non accessory related question. Has anyone updated their code and found their flipper flipping by itself? normally I'd think this is a physical issue but being that it just started today after a code update and my game has pretty low plays (6 weeks old?) I figured it would be silly to rule it (new code) out.

lose, not loose.

Edit

7-10k for a game? I'm confident that's not all a Rush LE is going for!

Maybe I wasn't clear. Demand and BOM both effect the pricing, but differently for toppers and pins.
I think if the BOM of a Stern Pro goes up 10%, they'll be increasing the price mostly BECAUSE of the BOM.
I think if the BOM of a topper goes up 10%, it will be irrelevant - they'll be increasing the price mostly based on what they can get for it.

Did they stick some new modes behind the topper paywall in this new update?

A switch frenzy.

To all that defend the price, I say why not make more than a limited run of these and price accordingly. There’s more money selling 3000 at $1299 than 1000 at 1699 as the parts go way down.

We are seeing a pinball boom that cannot last. The economy will slow drastically.

Maybe I’m just upset these prices have officially priced me out. Not because I cannot afford it, though because I do not perceive the value.

I want a Rush topper. Though $1700 buys a lot of other stuff I want more.

LOL

Not on the pro.
But I'll be checking the crimps when it arrives.

Really. FFS, I was half joking. Guess they need to partly justify the ridiculous price.

Yeah this kind of sucks, but can be worked around to be more fair to the player than a random award. I need the extra balls and I feel like any difficult deep game should have at least two extra balls that can be earned during a reasonably long and high scoring game. On the other hand, the mystery was random and there were times I've had really long games and never got a mystery EB.

So I think I'll do the old trick and add a fixed replay value and award an extra ball instead of a replay. I'm thinking that 300M sounds good for my skill level.

Yeah I thought that was kind of a bummer, you can always turn your replay to extra ball that was it’s more of a skill based one as the replay score increases the more it’s collected.

The price of the topper is crazy. I'd love to have one, but never at that price. Cut it in half and many more would sell.

Realistically, it looks like one stepper motor, a switch for registration, some individually controlled RGB LEDs as well as some individual white LEDs. Throw in some of the artwork you already licensed.

I'm thinking most of the topper can be 3D printed and assembled for a more reasonable cost.

Why would stern waste time with low-margin shit when demand is so high? Profit margin is king. No surprise here.

I am very happy with my $135 2112 topper by @sparky. Cheaper than the tax I would pay to buy the Stern version.DBA49D5B-34EB-4678-9778-5B651F324A41 (resized).png

In a world where a Rush Premium basically costs $9.5-$10k depending on tax/shipping… is a $1.5K topper really all that crazy?

The crazy part, to me, is the fact that the game is right around 10 grand. Yes, I’m complicit in helping to create those prices, but remember when WOZ at $6.5K sounded bat shit nuts?

This entire hobby has completely gone overboard on the price front, and it isn’t stopping anytime soon. These toppers are going to sell like hotcakes. $2k toppers will happen… no doubt about it. As long as people are climbing over dead bodies to drop $12k+ on a not so limited LE (which is the definition of crazy if you really step back and look at things) you’d better believe manufacturers will keep testing limits.

True, to a degree, but it's the sense that these continued increases has far exceeded the actual increased costs based on the litany of excuses to justify them. We are witness to increased margin based on simple greed with no proof or justification, and no end in sight. A fixed increase post pandemic is plausible, but as the situation relaxes and we don't see any drops in costs of goods in line with expectations that we're on the other side, and to the contrary there's still increases regularly to items already at double the cost, then it's perceived as greed. This logic can't get ignored and it fuels a vicious cycle. Meanwhile your income didn't double.

I'd like to know where everyone's money is all of a sudden coming from? It's almost like everything doubled and people are buying goods at a higher rate more than ever. With debt? It's an interesting perceived paradox that no seems to be talking about.

There's no tax. Just like pinball machines. You buy it from a distro out of state. But I get your point.

Since I'm new to Stern ownership, just curious is the frequency of releases, and quality of code and updates, and attention to the overall code, detail and gameplay of Rush better or same as previous titles? Wondering where this falls from the veterans with lots of Stern history and experience.

pinballjah is in Canada. In Canada you can't avoid sales tax anymore - pay no matter which province or state you buy from unfortunately.

I think if toppers were $1200 people could see it but the Mando and Rush toppers are literally double.

Gary Stern is out now though and I think the new management group sees the opportunity for more profit and bigger sales numbers overall. Sadly it seems like even through this upcoming downturn they are not wrong.

Stern owner since Metallica here - this game has gotten a lot of love from the coding team. The rules are perfect IMO. Having said that, LZ and STH also got a whole lot of love. Aerosmith is the only game in my collection that I wish had more complexity, but it’s gotten plenty of updates too for IC and jukebox mode.

lol yup. I remember those days.
I remember back in 2010 or so when Tron was coming out which I wanted, but Stern raised there prices so after your sub MSRP pricing the NIB price (Shipped) price jumped from 3900-4000 to a whooping $4500 and I said "that's it, I'm out". I think at that time Stern also swore up and down their customers were operators not home users (and certainly not a lifestyle brand), (about the time Jersey Jack stopped selling Sterns and started his own pinball line... times have changed)

There are lots of ways to keep the extra balls high in the settings folks. Award an extra ball instead of a replay award, etc.

It's going to depend on the team involved with the game, their passion with fixing or enhancing the code and if there are any major bugs. Typically, once the game has been out for a while, game code updates after v1.0 seem to slow down. This one had some minor tweaks but nothing in terms of new modes or such.

Games like Wheel of Fortune seemed to have been forgotten about as I think Keefer was about on his way out. World Poker Tour and Kiss both got a major final code update years later that basically turned the game around. Lyman was known to put out updates on games he worked on much later. Spider-man got an update 6 years after release, although it wasn't much.

First NIB I bought was Monopoly. That was back in the ROM chip Whitestar days and I don't think it ever had an update after the game shipped. If it did, usually it was for the coin tables for different countries. Simpsons Pinball Party was another NIB game I bought that was a ROM chip Whitestar game and I think there was 1 update I remember doing. You had to physically swap game ROM and display ROM chips out. Glad those days are over.

So, so many complaints about the high price of the new topper. There's a HUGE positive aspect to this, too. Pinball is hot right now! We've had the release of no fewer than 6 new games this year. That's incredible! Why? Because the market can support this. Sure, they're expensive. Would you prefer the alternative? A slow, dead market that can't support new development and new releases? If these sky-high prices can't be sustained, they won't. A bit of patience will pay off in this case. I say, bring 'em on. A healthy, robust market in the pin hobby means more innovation, more choices, and more new product. That's not nothing.

I 100% agree with this. I don’t quite understand how those on here that claim to be in the hobby since the “good ole days” complain so much about increased prices in what is a “HOBBY”. What was the price back then for eggs, peanut butter, gas, or a Ford truck? Technology and innovation comes with a price. Those prices are also driven by market demand. Right now, demand is at an all time high. Anyone who went to TPF can attest to that….Yes, does Stern price to maximize their return? Sure they do. But I don’t think them or the other companies are sitting back laughing at everyone for buying these accessories. Nobody should be angry at the ones that do buy these accessories. This is a sign of a very healthy market. Just my opinion…

I'd like to agree but I see the launch of 6 new games as the "greed" factor (as apposed to "fear") as manufacturers push the market beyond its support level. I hope I'm wrong but if it mirrors real estate markets, bubbles doo pop. A sure sign of success is over supply, gluttony then bust. Hope I'm wrong. As for toppers, I'm lucky - my darn ceiling is too low so there's no decision on cost/ROI etc.

Hey now everyone, Rush fans are not known for being hostile towards one another, our tight “cult” following, has proven this over the years

Topper: buy it or don’t buy, no need to justify if you do or don’t. These toys aren’t meant for everyone. Only one that needs to argue about it, is the individual themselves to themselves. Get one, great. If not for various reasons, don’t worry about it.

Other accessories: I’d vote for any Pro/Premium owners, to suggest getting the expression lights. After installing the LZ kit in mine, I wouldn’t enjoy playing Rush without them. But again, it’s not a needed item, just something to spice it up. The other accessories offered, it’s hit and miss for me, but others will enjoy them.

Prices aside, it’s awesome to see these finally being released. There’s plenty of other threads, to discuss high pricing, market, bubbles, ect....

The game is awesome enough on its own, any of these accessories won’t make or break that.

Question when you put in your expression lights did you have to take out the Playfield?? I watch a video where they say you do.

Back on the extra ball topic -- knowing that not everyone will be able to (due to their limited quantity and/or affordability) nor will want to (due to the exorbitant cost) get the topper, I don't think it's right to take away the extra ball from the random awards.

There should be some sort of logic in the game -- IF topper exists, THEN remove EB from randoms and establish it at topper, ELSE leave EB in randoms.

Yes, I know you can set one up for a score-based award, but 1) I'm personally not a fan of that (which is its own separate pinball philosophy discussion) but more importantly 2) the random EB can be a boon to lesser skilled players who'd never reach a target score or someone having an uncharacteristically poor game.

Fine, you can play a DLC-style card with a new mode only accessible with the topper -- that sucks for non-topper owners but you wanna drive the FOMO and justify its existence. But to penalize owners/players because we can't get or don't want the topper is unfair -- you've TAKEN AWAY a feature we already had, and that's wrong.

Stern team, please reincorporate the EB-in-random feature with the applicable with/without topper logic.

I haven't seen a hint of hostility, just a debate.

I’m not understanding how the launching of 6 new games by 6 different manufacturers is greed…it’s not like all of the companies got together to scheme the hobbyists. Hell, I’m thankful that we have 6 companies in the industry that are releasing games. The industry is obviously not stagnant. That would be like saying that Ford, Chevrolet, Toyota, Kia, and Nissian releases their new vehicles at the same time is greed. Once again, this points to a very strong market. You can’t be upset with people who are paying these prices. Just like any other HOBBY, you have to pay to play. Again, just my opinion….

I'm upset with MYSELF for paying these prices!

I know Ray reads this thread and I hope he sees this and helps us out. I also think this is unfair to non-topper owners....

I appreciate your reply/response. At the risk of being "moderated" for discussing a topic covered in other threads.... I'm probably dating myself when I reflect on a period when it was only Gottlieb/Williams/Bally with games routed and priced under $2k. The car parallel is interesting as I thought about Pontiac, Plymouth and Mercury: Brands discontinued as other manufacturers gained prominence, adding to supply. Anywho, back to RUSH: Love it too!

Hence my smiley face after that comment.

But the other part I pointed out, is starting to take over the thread, lol. There’s a reason people scroll past cargument and market trend threads.

For the record, I like SkyKing’s idea of not penalizing non topper owners with the extra ball award, and having that patched in the software.

Love the new "minimal" UI option.

One tweak would be nice (if anyone from Stern is listening. Since 1-player games are extremely common, I think it would be great to remove the player 2-4 "tabs" at the bottom. Jurassic park does this, and it's really nice (and it centers the single player score as well, which looks great and is easy to focus on).

IMG_2744 (resized).jpeg

Thank you Sir for saying it so eloquently. I feel penalized for not buying the topper, hence I won't update to current code at it's current state.

Spooky included a free topper with Rick and Morty, so if I were to buy the Rush topper, I could almost justify it by telling myself the toppers had an average price of $850. Hmmmmmmm....

Nah, still too rich for my blood. When a brand new, decently powered gaming computer costs less than a silly topper, something is wrong.

Sure, maybe it won't lose value and no doubt even appreciate, but by that logic we should all stock up on that crap from Supreme.

I'm glad I haven't seen the expression lights, so i don't feel the need for those either. Helps that I couldn’t be happier with my game as-is, I'm already living the dream! (Well, I will be a teensy bit happier once my Node 10 issue is addressed!)

I second that idea. I even tried setting "max number of players" to 1 hoping it would remove those empty tabs, but no dice.

Get them. I guarantee that you'll LOVE them. I can't imagine the game without them. The choreography to each song is just so incredibly well done.

Can we get a coil count on the topper???

A random extra ball award seems crazy to me, but I’m kind of locked in to the tournament/competition mindset now. An EB at 300M-500M doesn’t seem out of line.

Zero, they are using the returned ramp motors to run those gears.

Too soon?

I have already installed regular blades
And now caved and have Expression lights on order.

Will be removing the current blades to then install Expression Lights.

Any advice on removal ? Much appreciated

Yeah absolutely should not be awarded in tournaments -- I presume this gets removed in competition mode or converts to points. But for casual play -- especially for unskilled players who just want to have fun -- a random extra ball can be a nice surprise perk. Who doesn't get excited about an extra ball?