(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

4 years ago



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Topic index (key posts)

86 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #12066 What is PACER and where are you getting the court documents? Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12502 Links to where Kevin gives "his side of the story". Posted by BillySastard (2 years ago)

Post #12515 Updated court filings. Potential cash coming into bankruptcy estate. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12528 Good summation of 2 year look back and possible fraudulent transfers. Posted by flynnibus (2 years ago)

Post #12580 More legal pleadings. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12593 Facts & allegations document for VirtuaPin Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12801 Photos of Experts of Dangerous Posted by fastpinball (2 years ago)

Post #12872 Enaud's account of contacting fox regarding skit-b Posted by Enaud (2 years ago)

Post #13034 Description of an adversary proceeding (or AP) Posted by jasonp (2 years ago)

Post #13477 Discharge of debt denied by order Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13483 Stipulations for waiving chapter 7 discharge Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13528 Audio recording from Jan 27 court hearing regarding bankruptcy filing Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #13729 Summary of legal bankruptcy terminology Posted by Razorbak86 (2 years ago)


Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#821 4 years ago

This really wasn't a hard ride. If you really want to see a train wreck read the JPop threads.

2 weeks later
#1260 4 years ago

Why cant anybody Provide the names of the these upstanding people who have taken it upon them selves to decide what titles can and cant be made? If they have decided to make 250 collectors loose there money. They should be rewarded multiple law suites for there malice. Why let them hide behind a keyboard?

#1310 4 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

there is one entity, and only one entity, that has taken money and not provided a product...
the "loss of money" is entirely upon that entity...
and that entity isn't PBN, or "mysterious callers", or anyone BUT skitb... THEY started a "business" (term used VERY loosely), promised a product, and collected money...

So you really think no one would go out there way to under mine Skits efforts to complete this project? This is all smoke and mirrors?

2 weeks later
#2446 4 years ago

So it's No News Tuesday

#2593 4 years ago

"There is a lot of contextual information here that can't really be conveyed very well in this fashion, so we've been in talks with Martin from PinballNews.com, along with the most notable of podcasts to make sure this story gets told in the most complete and understandable way possible."

So if I want to know what's going on I have to read it in a news paper? Figurely speaking because the guy who took the money will only talk to a journalist.

I sent in my refund request.

#2912 4 years ago

Why does everyone think all the money is in a PayPal account? I sent my checks thru the U.S Postal system. Did everyone else use PP?

#4852 4 years ago

Kevin is stalling! Plain and simple. If he could send out emails last night he could of sent refunds last night. Why do people still believe what he says? He wouldnt know the truth if bit him in the Arse.

#4856 4 years ago

Kevin even had dear ol mom pushing Predator at Expo a few years back. Does this make her an accomplice?

#5078 4 years ago
Quoted from foxct:

Under Michigan penal code
As used in this section, "false pretense" includes, but is not limited to, a false or fraudulent representation, writing, communication, statement, or message, communicated by any means to another person, that the maker of the representation, writing, communication, statement, or message knows is false or fraudulent. The false pretense may be a representation regarding a past or existing fact or circumstance or a representation regarding the intention to perform a future event or to have a future event performed.

You do understand he committed these criminal actions in more than one state. Therefore he can be prosecuted in every state these actions took place.

#5611 4 years ago

Let's give him till the middle of next week. If refunds haven't been reported by then we know it was another tactic. I haven't cancelled any of my appointments to move forward with legal action yet. The check has to come and clear the bank before putting the tourches and pitch forks back in the barn. If the money is returned, then it's over. Move on.

#5947 4 years ago

Things may stay mild till about Wednesday. Then if no one has recieved a refund..........let the dogs out and pursue!

#6062 4 years ago

In order to use it as a tax write off you must file a criminal complait with authorities. Not just say a gave some bozo x amount of $$$.

1 week later
#6807 4 years ago

Can someone PM me Kevins actual address? Need it to file legal action. All I have is the P.O. where all the checks were sent.

#6827 4 years ago
Quoted from Trekie:

Can someone PM me Kevins actual address? Need it to file legal action. All I have is the P.O. where all the checks were sent.

Thanks to all who replied.

#6889 4 years ago

Stay focused on Kevin, he took the money and poof, it's all gone.

#6968 4 years ago

I had a conversation with Midland local law enforcement. I urge those envolved call and file a complaint.

#6970 4 years ago

I asked and it doesnt work that way. Each complaint would be one count. As I understand it, the officers gather the basic info and pass it along to the detectives.
PM me and I will give you the Ph# for Central Dispatch. That will get the ball rolling.

#6973 4 years ago

Has Kevin shown any remorse? Any restitution?

#6977 4 years ago
Quoted from examiner:

Assuming you believe fraud was committed, it's clearly mail/wire fraud and a matter of Federal jurisdiction and the local guys would recognize that. They will probably bundle up the complaints and forward them on.
Just don't expect to hear any updates on the status of your complaint/investigation. It don't work that way.....

Ok I will bite, why?

#6981 4 years ago

Yea, I think I will go with what the guys with badges told me instead of what's on the Internet because if it's on the Internet it has to be true.

#7125 4 years ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

That's not how it works. They would show up at your door with police.

Yea right! No due process, no suphoena.........ect......
I have spoken to law enforcement about this case and that is NOT how it works.

#7175 4 years ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

There was no license.
He stole intellectual property and committed fraud by taking money from customers.
Kevin deserves to be punished to the full extent of the law.
Everyone who says I don't understand the law, are people arrested before or after they go to court? Last I check, one can still be arrested before going to court. In court, is when one gets their sentence/punishment.

You really don't understand our legal system do you. Going to court is where 2 sides present their case. Then a judgement is made after both sides have presented their version of events.

#7375 4 years ago
Quoted from hank527:

So again, how do we go after Kevin and try and get our money back and put him in jail where he belongs.

PM me and I will send you the phone number to Midland PD to file a criminal complaint.

#7498 4 years ago

Show me the MONEY!!!

#7559 4 years ago

Kevin just dugged a deeper hole. He can't remember what lie he told when.

#7568 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

From what we've been told, the lies told to the vendor partners were far less ambiguous than the non-answers we were given. The cabinet guy said he had detailed conversations with Kevin about Fox approving the artwork, things that got changed for the license, etc.
It's these little details that will bury Kevin now, he can't just claim he thought he was all good.

I wonder if their were sign contracts with these vendors or was it done on a handshake? Kevin Kulek did tarnish their reputations with his lies. Do they have actual damages that they could sue for?

#7572 4 years ago

Kevin has shown no proof of any money remaining. He has a Paypal statement that shows all transactions. But no one has seen it. Kevin has done nothing to reassure anyone that refunds will be made. Kevins words are meaningless. Checks are in the mail?

#7602 4 years ago

So how much of the Preator money did Kevin Kulek spend on EoD?
Did the EoD pin start after the first time Fox said stop?

#7612 4 years ago

The IRS has a longer arm than state and local PD, just ask Capone.

#7625 4 years ago

Can you get permission from the person you spoke with to send their contact information to the other owners that have been screwed? I really think it would be beneficial to you all as a group to have at least a dozen people contact the same person about the issue.

I have no money in this, but I'd like to help you guys and this is the only way I know how. Sorry if the advice offends anyone.

Trekie

Pinball addict

5 days ago
Post #6948¶quoteEdit

I asked and it doesnt work that way. Each complaint would be one count. As I understand it, the officers gather the basic info and pass it along to the detectives.
PM me and I will give you the Ph# for Central Dispatch. That will get the ball rolling.

#7626 4 years ago
Quoted from PACMAN:

Great idea. Put the IRS in line before us to so they can seize all the money and make it that much harder for us to get our $.

The money is gone.

#7640 4 years ago

Any refunds today?

#7956 4 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

If you are a victim please gather the following to report to,the detective in midland. Please don't wait. Please call,him right away.
1- all your details, DOB, address, how much you paid, when, how much, in a one page summary email. Include dates! Declare yourself a victim of KKK and here are my details.
2- evidence of any contact you had with KKK - notes from phone calls, recorded messages, and emails. Attach all this to your email.
3- another email attached labeled Web Links where you put links to incriminating videos, podcasts, and websites. There will be lots of duplication but don't worry about that just do it.
I have to make you find his phone number yourself. Detective Brent Benzing with the Midland County Sheriff. Only 5 people have reported today...WTF!?!
Don't lay down for this! Call the detective! Gather info and email the detective ! That information is bullets in his gun.
Right now, as we speak, KKK is relaxing. He DOES have counsel now. They are taking the position that NONE of this is criminal, it's all civil. His position is he never lied, never defrauded. Don't let him do this to us. Help prove to that detective what a rat bastard snitch Kevin Kulek is.

Bump

#7957 4 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Please do as Rommy asks!! You guys should all be calling Detective Brent Benzing with the Midland County Sherriff.

bump

#7961 4 years ago
Quoted from kismetnumber1:

Hate to disrupt this thread but didn't know where to post this. Does anybody know what Skit-B's next game is going to be?

Hide n Seek

#7967 4 years ago
Quoted from nintendo:

Well he did mention that he will get back into pinball as he still believes in the Predator project The last article from pinballnews he said something about not ruling out that option...

Just a stall tatic.

#8004 4 years ago
Quoted from playernumber4:

As Rommy said........if you are a victim please gather the following to report to,the detective in midland. Please don't wait. Please call,him right away.
1- all your details, DOB, address, how much you paid, when, how much, in a one page summary email. Include dates! Declare yourself a victim of KKK and here are my details.
2- evidence of any contact you had with KKK - notes from phone calls, recorded messages, and emails. Attach all this to your email.
3- another email attached labeled Web Links where you put links to incriminating videos, podcasts, and websites. There will be lots of duplication but don't worry about that just do it.
Don't lay down for this! Call the detective! Gather info and email the detective ! That information is bullets in his gun.
Right now, as we speak, KKK is relaxing. He DOES have counsel now. They are taking the position that NONE of this is criminal, it's all civil. His position is he never lied, never defrauded. Don't let him do this to us. Help prove to that detective what a rat bastard snitch Kevin Kulek is.
And please do not forget to put the the exact dates you sent in money, the dates Kevin promised blah blah blah, and what Kevin's responses were to any questions (and when). This might not seem like important information right now but when it comes to the trial stage this is the type of information that that will destroy his defense. Make sure all of that information gets to the detective.

Bump

#8010 4 years ago

As Rommy said........if you are a victim please gather the following to report to,the detective in midland. Please don't wait. Please call,him right away.
1- all your details, DOB, address, how much you paid, when, how much, in a one page summary email. Include dates! Declare yourself a victim of KKK and here are my details.
2- evidence of any contact you had with KKK - notes from phone calls, recorded messages, and emails. Attach all this to your email.
3- another email attached labeled Web Links where you put links to incriminating videos, podcasts, and websites. There will be lots of duplication but don't worry about that just do it.
Don't lay down for this! Call the detective! Gather info and email the detective ! That information is bullets in his gun.
Right now, as we speak, KKK is relaxing. He DOES have counsel now. They are taking the position that NONE of this is criminal, it's all civil. His position is he never lied, never defrauded. Don't let him do this to us. Help prove to that detective what a rat bastard snitch Kevin Kulek is.
And please do not forget to put the the exact dates you sent in money, the dates Kevin promised blah blah blah, and what Kevin's responses were to any questions (and when). This might not seem like important information right now but when it comes to the trial stage this is the type of information that that will destroy his defense. Make sure all of that information gets to the detective.

Bump

#8019 4 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

As Rommy said........if you are a victim please gather the following to report to,the detective in midland. Please don't wait. Please call,him right away.
1- all your details, DOB, address, how much you paid, when, how much, in a one page summary email. Include dates! Declare yourself a victim of KKK and here are my details.
2- evidence of any contact you had with KKK - notes from phone calls, recorded messages, and emails. Attach all this to your email.
3- another email attached labeled Web Links where you put links to incriminating videos, podcasts, and websites. There will be lots of duplication but don't worry about that just do it.
Don't lay down for this! Call the detective! Gather info and email the detective ! That information is bullets in his gun.
Right now, as we speak, KKK is relaxing. He DOES have counsel now. They are taking the position that NONE of this is criminal, it's all civil. His position is he never lied, never defrauded. Don't let him do this to us. Help prove to that detective what a rat bastard snitch Kevin Kulek is.
And please do not forget to put the the exact dates you sent in money, the dates Kevin promised blah blah blah, and what Kevin's responses were to any questions (and when). This might not seem like important information right now but when it comes to the trial stage this is the type of information that that will destroy his defense. Make sure all of that information gets to the detective.
Bump

Everyone who sent money needs to do this. The only part the detective said he didn't need was the Web Links as he has those already. If your unsure what to send call the detective he's more then happy to talk on the phone and returned my calls promptly.

bump

#8146 4 years ago
Quoted from Trekie:

As Rommy said........if you are a victim please gather the following to report to,the detective in midland. Please don't wait. Please call,him right away.
1- all your details, DOB, address, how much you paid, when, how much, in a one page summary email. Include dates! Declare yourself a victim of KKK and here are my details.
2- evidence of any contact you had with KKK - notes from phone calls, recorded messages, and emails. Attach all this to your email.
3- another email attached labeled Web Links where you put links to incriminating videos, podcasts, and websites. There will be lots of duplication but don't worry about that just do it.
Don't lay down for this! Call the detective! Gather info and email the detective ! That information is bullets in his gun.
Right now, as we speak, KKK is relaxing. He DOES have counsel now. They are taking the position that NONE of this is criminal, it's all civil. His position is he never lied, never defrauded. Don't let him do this to us. Help prove to that detective what a rat bastard snitch Kevin Kulek is.
And please do not forget to put the the exact dates you sent in money, the dates Kevin promised blah blah blah, and what Kevin's responses were to any questions (and when). This might not seem like important information right now but when it comes to the trial stage this is the type of information that that will destroy his defense. Make sure all of that information gets to the detective.

Bump

#8156 4 years ago

I heard last week that no one from Mich. had filed a complaint. Any truth?

#8258 4 years ago

rommy said:

If you are a victim please gather the following to report to,the detective in midland. Please don't wait. Please call,him right away.
1- all your details, DOB, address, how much you paid, when, how much, in a one page summary email. Include dates! Declare yourself a victim of KKK and here are my details.
2- evidence of any contact you had with KKK - notes from phone calls, recorded messages, and emails. Attach all this to your email.
3- another email attached labeled Web Links where you put links to incriminating videos, podcasts, and websites. There will be lots of duplication but don't worry about that just do it.
I have to make you find his phone number yourself. Detective Brent Benzing with the Midland County Sheriff. Only 5 people have reported today...WTF!?!
Don't lay down for this! Call the detective! Gather info and email the detective ! That information is bullets in his gun.
Right now, as we speak, KKK is relaxing. He DOES have counsel now. They are taking the position that NONE of this is criminal, it's all civil. His position is he never lied, never defrauded. Don't let him do this to us. Help prove to that detective what a rat bastard snitch Kevin Kulek is.

Bump

#8267 4 years ago
Quoted from Trekie:

rommy said:
If you are a victim please gather the following to report to,the detective in midland. Please don't wait. Please call,him right away.
1- all your details, DOB, address, how much you paid, when, how much, in a one page summary email. Include dates! Declare yourself a victim of KKK and here are my details.
2- evidence of any contact you had with KKK - notes from phone calls, recorded messages, and emails. Attach all this to your email.
3- another email attached labeled Web Links where you put links to incriminating videos, podcasts, and websites. There will be lots of duplication but don't worry about that just do it.
I have to make you find his phone number yourself. Detective Brent Benzing with the Midland County Sheriff. Only 5 people have reported today...WTF!?!
Don't lay down for this! Call the detective! Gather info and email the detective ! That information is bullets in his gun.

Bump
Right now, as we speak, KKK is relaxing. He DOES have counsel now. They are taking the position that NONE of this is criminal, it's all civil. His position is he never lied, never defrauded. Don't let him do this to us. Help prove to that detective what a rat bastard snitch Kevin Kulek is.
Bump

#8320 4 years ago
Quoted from Trekie:

rommy said:
If you are a victim please gather the following to report to,the detective in midland. Please don't wait. Please call,him right away.
1- all your details, DOB, address, how much you paid, when, how much, in a one page summary email. Include dates! Declare yourself a victim of KKK and here are my details.
2- evidence of any contact you had with KKK - notes from phone calls, recorded messages, and emails. Attach all this to your email.
3- another email attached labeled Web Links where you put links to incriminating videos, podcasts, and websites. There will be lots of duplication but don't worry about that just do it.
I have to make you find his phone number yourself. Detective Brent Benzing with the Midland County Sheriff. Only 5 people have reported today...WTF!?!
Don't lay down for this! Call the detective! Gather info and email the detective ! That information is bullets in his gun.

Bump
Right now, as we speak, KKK is relaxing. He DOES have counsel now. They are taking the position that NONE of this is criminal, it's all civil. His position is he never lied, never defrauded. Don't let him do this to us. Help prove to that detective what a rat bastard snitch Kevin Kulek is.
Bump

#8322 4 years ago

If you are a victim please gather the following to report to,the detective in midland. Please don't wait. Please call,him right away.
1- all your details, DOB, address, how much you paid, when, how much, in a one page summary email. Include dates! Declare yourself a victim of KKK and here are my details.
2- evidence of any contact you had with KKK - notes from phone calls, recorded messages, and emails. Attach all this to your email.
3- another email attached labeled Web Links where you put links to incriminating videos, podcasts, and websites. There will be lots of duplication but don't worry about that just do it.
I have to make you find his phone number yourself. Detective Brent Benzing with the Midland County Sheriff. Only 5 people have reported today...WTF!?!
Don't lay down for this! Call the detective! Gather info and email the detective ! That information is bullets in his gun.

Bump
Right now, as we speak, KKK is relaxing. He DOES have counsel now. They are taking the position that NONE of this is criminal, it's all civil. His position is he never lied, never defrauded. Don't let him do this to us. Help prove to that detective what a rat bastard snitch Kevin Kulek is.
Bump

Don't let this fall by the way side! Don't let Kevin Kulek play you for a chump.

2 weeks later
#8489 4 years ago
Quoted from Trekie:

rommy said:
If you are a victim please gather the following to report to,the detective in midland. Please don't wait. Please call,him right away.
1- all your details, DOB, address, how much you paid, when, how much, in a one page summary email. Include dates! Declare yourself a victim of KKK and here are my details.
2- evidence of any contact you had with KKK - notes from phone calls, recorded messages, and emails. Attach all this to your email.
3- another email attached labeled Web Links where you put links to incriminating videos, podcasts, and websites. There will be lots of duplication but don't worry about that just do it.
I have to make you find his phone number yourself. Detective Brent Benzing with the Midland County Sheriff. Only 5 people have reported today...WTF!?!
Don't lay down for this! Call the detective! Gather info and email the detective ! That information is bullets in his gun.
Right now, as we speak, KKK is relaxing. He DOES have counsel now. They are taking the position that NONE of this is criminal, it's all civil. His position is he never lied, never defrauded. Don't let him do this to us. Help prove to that detective what a rat bastard snitch Kevin Kulek is.
Bump

Don't let him get away from this.

#8541 3 years ago

Another stall tactic from Kevin the thief. If he was going to issue refunds it would of happened by now.
He is probably working on a way to keep all the money. Not all the money went to PayPal.
He has a credit union account that he was using too.

#8552 3 years ago

Can anyone verify this: PayPal is the trustee of the funds that have been collected.
Does PP evan do this sort of thing? Who asked them to be "trustee"
Isn't a trustee set up when going into bankruptcy?

#8563 3 years ago

The question to ask is, did the guys in Mich. get refunds so it would make it harder for the rest to get restitution? If not why the silent treatment?

#8582 3 years ago

Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion, so what is being said is Kevin Kulek is still building and selling Predator pinball machines with out a license? Somebody should give FOX a call again.

#8583 3 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

Lawyer is hopeful to have everything on the legal side done in 60-90 days. Once all that dies down, supposedly revisiting the chance of FOX approving license if enough people would still buy the game if built; if not, then will officially cancel the build and start looking at actual refunds for people.
*allegedly, so don't take any of that as actual truth. Just what I was told.

Who in there right mind would stick with this after all the lies that have been told, I mean half truths.
If he any good will he would refunded the money first. Then try and get approval and restart. But no, he will not let go of the money. Just like Jpoop, another scam bag.

#8623 3 years ago

Can someone post the steps to file small claims in the state of Michigan?

#8640 3 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Guess who's first on the FBI's list of something happens to Kevin.

With all the lies and crap Kevin Kuleck has pulled that is a very long list.

#8643 3 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Hell, that statement could be considered a threat of physical violence alone. I wouldn't suggest giving Kevin even the tinniest way out of this.

Really? Sticking up for the scum bag.

#8651 3 years ago

"Apparently, for those that wanted to disrupt Kevin's pretty little world, there has been some success. Police, sometimes 4 at a time, the local detectives, the FBI, Fire Marshals (I think I made that one up), all banging on his door at all hours of the day and night."

Kevin Kulek, so he is building these so called pinball machines in his basement, right? And lives in a residential zoned area? Someone or two or three should call the local zoning authority and let them know kevin kulek is manufacturing out of his house. Maybe even drop a line to OSHA, I am sure they would love to join the party.

#8659 3 years ago

ditto on the lawyers email you used

#8679 3 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Huh? Using threats of violence against the guy you're looking to get money out of is a bad move. Maybe go back and read again...

And just what act of violence did I mention or promote?

#8688 3 years ago

Think of the vendors he used. They trusted him. They could of lost their businesses over copy right issues.

#8710 3 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

Come on man, I was commenting on some posts in general, that have shown up recently. It's not about you, go back and read that part of the thread again.

BS if it wasn't about me then why did YOU quote my post? You tried to put me under the gun. You must be one of Kevin's buddies. If you or Kevin think this is going to silence me you are sadly mistaken. Return my money and then I will go away.

#8711 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Sorry bro but this one is an absolute dead end. He didn't employ anybody, he didn't PRODUCE anything...he's just a guy in his basement working on a project. This is not someone OSHA would be remotely interested in as it's virtually impossible to "prove" that he was in any kind of a business. Labor and zoning laws don't apply here. It's a dude's basement not a factory and it's gonna be virtually impossible to convince anybody otherwise. I might as well sic OSHA on you for failing to have your kid wear proper eyewear while making a birdhouse.
I mean, as long as you are throwing everything against the wall and hoping it sticks, have at it, but I really doubt this would go anywhere.

Kevins claim to the detective he was/is in business of producing pinball machines. The detective inspected Kevins basement and saw what appeared to be a number of machines in various stages of assembly. The OSHA thing may not apply, but he is not doing it with help. But as far as running a business out of his house. Yes that is real or he did just lie to the detectives?

#8712 3 years ago
Quoted from guyincognito:

I don't know if this is of any help, but I have recently come in contact with a benevolent Millionaire Playboy out of Vancouver who is really into pinball! He just might be able to invest enough of his own money to get a legit license from Fox and get this train back on the tracks. The terms of the deal aren't completely worked out yet, but as I understand it, he would "license" the game from SkitB and then take the final steps to get production rolling. There are a few caveats with this deal though. As MP is not buying or taking over SkitB as a company, the pot of money from pre-order deposits is assumed gone (zilch, nada, spent, zeroed out, Kevin's Retirement Fund, etc). That means anyone who wants a game is going to have to start sending in pre-order deposits when the time comes (DON'T WORRY, he's not asking for any money NOW!). How much money? At this point, without a BOM, no one knows for sure? There is some talk of him being able to offer some kind of "credits" to existing SkitB pre-order buyers, but unless he's willing to subsidize the lost SkitB pre-order money or have new customer's subsidize existing customers, I don't see how this could happen. On the other hand, he's a Millionaire and a really great businessman, so he might be able to make it happen!? (Isn't this EXCITING!!!) Now, I do want to make it clear that he doesn't have any prior experience manufacturing a retail pinball machine (or anything really). But then again, neither did Kevin.

This smells like the Jpoop thing.
Kevin screws everybody out there money and then some guy is going to give Kevin more money for his no-license game. The pre order guys get to throw money at a Predator game title. I am sure everyone would want a Pedator game around to remind them how Kevin Kulek screwed them out of their money. This title and theme are tainted forever in the pinball hobby.
If people would of been made whole, then something like that may had a chance.
IMO this has the same chance as a snowball in hell.

#8714 3 years ago
Quoted from CrazyLevi:

Sorry bro but this one is an absolute dead end. He didn't employ anybody, he didn't PRODUCE anything...he's just a guy in his basement working on a project. This is not someone OSHA would be remotely interested in as it's virtually impossible to "prove" that he was in any kind of a business. Labor and zoning laws don't apply here. It's a dude's basement not a factory and it's gonna be virtually impossible to convince anybody otherwise. I might as well sic OSHA on you for failing to have your kid wear proper eyewear while making a birdhouse.
I mean, as long as you are throwing everything against the wall and hoping it sticks, have at it, but I really doubt this would go anywhere.

Maybe your right? It only a phone call to a government agency.
Think of it a wellness check for Kevin. We know he is just so busy writing refund checks.

#8715 3 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

I'm pretty sure guyincognito's post was dripping with sarcasm, and Pintasia has ZERO interest in jumping into the Predator swamp.

I am sure you are right. Just venting. It could of been worse. I could of been a Jpoop customer.
I wonder if Kevin and Jpoop have talked or are seeing who can out do who?

#8753 3 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

Its clear this is all BS. Kevin repeatedly mentioned that he would refund our money on multiple occasions but no, it was another lie. Looks like the lies are going to continue for quite some time.

Agree, I don't think he knows how to tell the truth, maybe we should force him into bankruptcy before he's prepared for it. Quit letting him call all the shots.

#8766 3 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Disgusting.
Question: why hasn't Kevin had to answer that he never had the license and collected monies on a false premise. I don't see how that is getting glossed over.

Because when question he says he did, sort of, but not really. er ah 1/2 truth.

#8767 3 years ago

There are two basic ways to "misdirect" your audience; one is time-sensitive, the other isn't.

Kevin needed time to move assets around and put time distance from the move? So now when question when do you buy this he can a long time ago. Why else would he be stalling. The time he has the better off it is for him.
Is it true a house is only in his wife's name and it was purchased last year? Does she even have a job?
Are his debts also his debts?

25
#8783 3 years ago

Enaud,

If you have any out of pocket expenses for going above and beyond helping the rest of us let me know. I would like to help offset any cost to you. Weather it phone bills, paper or what not.
If we ever meet up, dinner is on me.

#8786 3 years ago

A felony.

#8854 3 years ago

Keep your fingers crossed for those of us chumps that paid by check. I hope he has funds in there to cover us, too!

I know what you mean, Kevin oues me $7500 and $7250 went into his credit union account not paypal.

#8855 3 years ago

If Skit B or Kevin were giving refunds would there be some sort of communication from them or his mouth piece?

#8985 3 years ago
Quoted from scott_freeman:

Paypal is a multi-million dollar enterprise. They can soak up their losses
It is in their best interest to refund *all* payments process by them, for lack of delivery.
As we know, SkitB has not demonstrated even one delivery of 'goods'.
For Paypal not do return the monies, it would tie them to the appearance of facilitating a crime.

Didn't PP just recently separate from Ebay? Maybe PP trying to clean up their act?

#8998 3 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

I think they are working through all the deposits now based on the "investigation".
There is a WHOLE lot more missing, that's a given, like I said, DumbB gave a ton of it to cabinet guy and I'm sure the lawyer is going after that money, but it's NOT going back to paypal.
Everybody won't get refunded based on what is in the paypal account. That has to be obvious and common sense doesn't it?
Hopefully, the whole thing is so F ed up, pay pal will keep working through the refunds for EVERYBODY.

The plot thickens. The Jpop vendors have been vocal on what was done and SkitB vendors have been pretty quite about it all. I think some were hood winked. It sounds like some may have had there hand pretty deep in the cookie jar? Or are they waiting for a judgement?

#9047 3 years ago

Who are the investigators? What is being investigated, civil or criminal?

#9214 3 years ago

He did it to show that all the PP money is gone. He may have given it to his wife for safe spending, I mean keeping?

#9216 3 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Yeah but paypal did not stop the refunds. SkitB manually cancelled all the refunds before they could fund.
Only claim of no money in paypal is the negative 94k balance form the one rep. Now that SkitB played this game of 'refund' and cancel, he has opened up paypal to be subpoenaed for records on the account it appears.
Either way it really does not matter to me if no money is in paypal as we all know that the money is not all gone. Even if it is, it appears that he broke enough laws that the debt will not be wiped even if he declares bankruptcy.

I agree.

1 week later
#9264 3 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

If anyone wants to discuss action going on outside of the forum, please contact me.
There are some things happening and easiest to talk about it over the phone.
PM me your number and I will call this evening.

bump

#9265 3 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

If anyone wants to discuss action going on outside of the forum, please contact me.
There are some things happening and easiest to talk about it over the phone.
PM me your number and I will call this evening.

Bump

#9271 3 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

If anyone wants to discuss action going on outside of the forum, please contact me.
There are some things happening and easiest to talk about it over the phone.
PM me your number and I will call this evening.

Bump

1 week later
#9351 3 years ago

And where did Kevin get the money for EOD?

4 weeks later
#9424 3 years ago
Quoted from Ozzie:

Kevin took over $750,000 in pre-order money. He is hardly judgment proof. Even if he spent all of the money, there should be some hard assets to recover against.
More than likely he stopped paying his attorney because he wanted to, or he did not like the advice he was receiving. Refusing to pay your attorney for services and being able to are vastly different things. Hopefully, his attorney was smart enough to get a large retainer up front so he did not become another victim of Kevin.
Keep going guys. He likely is reading the posts and hoping you will all just let him keep the money. If he has $500,000 left, it would be like winning the lottery for him- house paid off, and a $30,000 a year salary for 15 years for doing nothing. Why give it back?

bump

1 week later
#9427 3 years ago

Bump
4y 216 25 26
Ozzie said:
Kevin took over $750,000 in pre-order money. He is hardly judgment proof. Even if he spent all of the money, there should be some hard assets to recover against.
More than likely he stopped paying his attorney because he wanted to, or he did not like the advice he was receiving. Refusing to pay your attorney for services and being able to are vastly different things. Hopefully, his attorney was smart enough to get a large retainer up front so he did not become another victim of Kevin.
Keep going guys. He likely is reading the posts and hoping you will all just let him keep the money. If he has $500,000 left, it would be like winning the lottery for him- house paid off, and a $30,000 a year salary for 15 years for doing nothing. Why give it back?

2 weeks later
#9471 3 years ago

Vagrancy legal definition of vagrancy - Legal Dictionary
legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/vagrancy
Vagrancy. The condition of an individual who is idle, has no visible means of support, and travels from place to place without working. At Common Law the term ...

In this state the wine O's use it to bed up for the winter. It carries a 90 day to 6 month term. It's free room and board at a minimum security facility. Some are work farms.

#9526 3 years ago

And what has all this "traffic' rules have to do with the Predator situation?

3 weeks later
#9582 3 years ago

Kevin Kulek shows up at W-S Auction today 9/19/15

Buys machines

Has sold Predator machine, mention in new thread.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/kevin-kulek-shows-up-at-w-s-auction-today-91915

#9661 3 years ago

What's the penalty for possession of stolen Intellectual Property? Is it a felony? Clearly he new it was ill gotten?

#9682 3 years ago

Only 2 ever made? What about the other 6 in his basement viewed by the local PD?

#9723 3 years ago

So when your caught with counterfeit goods, do you get to keep them or are they confiscated and use as evidence?
Are counterfeit items legal or illegal ? By possessing couterfit items are you committing a crime?
Is ignorance a good defense ?

#9848 3 years ago

Predator court today? Just some sword rattling over what court should hear the case?

12
#9850 3 years ago

Really public record is not to be discussed?

#9886 3 years ago

So the guys who bought and sold the 2 prototype machines and Kevin have committed a crime in trafficking ?

#9889 3 years ago

So it would be in Kevin's best interest to give the money back and get out of the lime light?

#9893 3 years ago
Quoted from asay:

The money is gone/mostly gone and he has no other income (didn't someone say he was fired from his last job?).
People will downvote me for saying it, but it's probably the truth. He isn't just sitting pretty on a pile of cash and going through all these lawsuits for fun.

I don't think so.

-7
#9913 3 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

just to make it clear, if you are someone that paid into this crapfest then do not let comments like this ^^^ keep you from getting involved in cases against Kulek/SkitB/ et al.
Many people have not looked into the details and have no idea what they are talking about or where the money resides (and legally how it can be gone after).
Still time to call KiethinMI and get a free consult. most of the legwork has already been done so your personal barrier to entrance is very small.

Hypocrite

#9958 3 years ago

What is a vagrancy charge?

Historically, vagrancy laws made it a crime for a person to wander from place to place without visible means of support. Basically, these laws criminalized being homeless and jobless. States used vagrancy laws to arrest, prosecute, and harass homeless people and poor people who were suspected of criminal activity or who were considered undesirable.

Criminalizing Homelessness and Poverty

Most criminal statutes prohibit certain acts, such as taking something that does not belong to you or having sex for money; or failures to act, such as failing to provide a safe home for your children. While vagrancy laws sometimes prohibited specific acts, such as loitering (although this term can be problematic, as explained below), sleeping outside, panhandling, fortune telling, gambling, or prostitution, they also prohibited being a certain type of person (without regard to what that person might be doing or not doing). Vagrancy laws criminalized being:

unemployed
an alcoholic or a drug addict
a prostitute, or
homeless.
Under vagrancy laws, it was a crime to be any of these things, even if the person was not otherwise doing anything illegal. Laws that prohibit being something, rather than doing something, are called status crimes. As explained below, many courts have decided that status crimes, including some vagrancy laws, are problematic and hence unenforceable.

#9959 3 years ago

Kevin doesn't have a job, no visible means of support? Has money to travel half way across the country and buy coin op equipment.
And all the money is gone.

Under Michigan’s laws, it is a crime to be a “disorderly person.” Being a disorderly person, sometimes called disorderly conduct or disturbing the peace, can mean a lot of different things, from picketing funerals to fighting in bars. What all kinds of disorderly conduct have in common is that they are behaviors that are likely to upset, anger, or annoy others.

For more general information on the crime of disorderly conduct, see Disorderly Conduct Laws and Penalties.

Disorderly Person

In Michigan, it is a crime to be a “disorderly person.” Michigan’s disorderly person law is similar to an old-fashioned vagrancy law and includes a prohibition against vagrants (people who wander from place to place without visible means of support). Historically, vagrancy laws criminalized a broad range of conduct, and states used vagrancy laws to arrest, prosecute, and harass homeless people and poor people who were suspected of criminal activity or considered undesirable.

For more information, see our article on Vagrancy.

Under Michigan’s law, the term “disorderly person” covers a broad range of undesirable behavior, including:

being able-bodied but failing to support your family
being a prostitute or “loitering” (hanging out) in places of prostitution
being a “Peeping Tom”
engaging in an illegal business or profession (such as illegal gambling)
loitering in places where illegal business is transacted
being intoxicated in public and disturbing others or endangering people or property
engaging in indecent or obscene conduct in public (such as nudity or sexual acts)
being a vagrant
loitering at police stations, jails, hospitals, or courthouses, soliciting work as an attorney or bail bond, and
unnecessarily jostling or crowding others in public places.

1 week later
1 week later
1 month later
#10089 3 years ago

Anybody hear from Kieth lately?
I put in a couple of calls and no response.

#10093 3 years ago

Just got off the phone with Kieth, everything is good and moving along thru the court system.

#10102 3 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

Same here. No response, but will try again frequently in the coming days.

I did talk to Keith last week. The wheels of justice turn very slow.

#10120 3 years ago

The case is still active.

3 weeks later
#10161 3 years ago

Kevin's will get a chance to tell his lies under oath. I want to hear them.

#10163 3 years ago

I want to hear him spew his BS under oath and under cross examination.

1 month later
#10226 3 years ago

It was theft.

1 week later
#10229 3 years ago

or the other 6 that the detective and FBI saw in his basement.

1 week later
#10294 3 years ago
Quoted from RonB:

Refund_Dept_(resized).jpg

It would be nice to see their pictures in the post office.

1 week later
#10339 3 years ago

Don't forget it's just not Kevin. His mother,wife and partner are on the hook too. Shake the tree hard enough and one will fall.
Kevin is betting if he stalls long enough we will all go away. The clock is ticking for them. He needs this to go away.
I will wait!

#10379 3 years ago

Like father like son.

1 month later
#10456 3 years ago

Aaron was their for the takeoff he is their for the crash.

1 month later
#10527 2 years ago

Your better off to give him a call. He does respond to phone calls and voice mail.

#10549 2 years ago

Tactics of a man scared of going to jail. Take some ones money under false pretext and then it disappears. It's just starting to get interesting.

#10780 2 years ago

Quoted from cfh:
There are two predators in existence. The one that Kevin was hauling to the show. And the other one Tim has. There are no other complete games or even close to complete games. There are some parts out there but that's about it. There is a chance that up to five predators could be made. But there are more major assemblies that are not available. The biggest block on the whole thing is the ramps. There was only two sets ever made and one is in Tim's game and the other one is in the original black predator. There's no others. So at this point in time there are no predators that can even exist, because there simply aren't enough parts to make one.
You also need software too. It's not like that's readily available either. And Milton stop lying about stuff. You don't know anything.

Would you be willing to sign an affidavit to this?
Or is it just more bs?

#10795 2 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

The best story to me about the predator was again the ramps. Paul, the cabinet guy, and Kevin went to to see Terry in Chicago. They stayed overnight at Terry's house and we're scheduled for an 8 AM meeting with the ramp manufacturer. This is the same company that makes ramps for Stern.
8 AM rolls around and Terry and Paul are dressed to the nines with nice shoes and button down shirts and nice pants. Kevin appears in torn pants, dirty T-shirt, and that goofy hat he likes to wear. Terry and Paul are like, "dude you have to dress up for this you can't look like that." Kevin says, "I have to be me and this is me."

It sounds like "Paul" had a bigger role in Skit Pinball than just the the cabinet guy. Partner?

#10798 2 years ago

Depends on who the someone is.

#10801 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

How about myself?
How about cfh?

you, no. Clay?

#10815 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

How about if I said "yes"; would you accept that as an answer? What about cfh?

Why?

#10817 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

I'll sign one. What's in it for me? Or, what would be in it for cfh?

Figure it out.

#10822 2 years ago

Then why did he go with Kevin to the ramp manufacture?

#10826 2 years ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

It's possible he went with him to make an introduction.
Other companies I do business with, we are always helping each other out. It's in our best interest that we are all successful.

Wasn't Terry doing the intro ? Why can't Paul answer the question?

#10843 2 years ago

I don't think this bankruptcy filling will go anywhere. It would require Kevin to state true facts. Sounds like a stalling tactic to see if more drop out.
If it costs me a little more $, ok.
It has to be costing Kevin 10 times what it costs me. If Kevin doesn't have a job that = 0 income, where is the money coming from?
Criminal Lawyer, civil lawyer, Bankruptcy lawyer are all going to want there fee up front no matter what story Kevin has told them.

#10844 2 years ago
#10876 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

If he's indigent, he can get a court appointed Lawyer. Guess who pays for most of that?

The people of Michigan. You live in Michigan right?

#10890 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

News coverage of this probably wouldn't be good for the community as a whole. While pinheads understand the situation, people who aren't involved in the community won't and might think poorly of pinball in general. A whole bunch of laws that made pinball illegal in certain areas are just starting to get knocked down now, and advertising a situation like this might give the general public pause about voiding those laws and maybe even calling for making new ones.

Disagree.
Con men rely on that type of thinking. If he scams pinball hobbyist, why not video hobbyists, car hobbyists or photography hobbyist?
Let everyone know this may not be a person you want to have any association with.

2 weeks later
#11061 2 years ago

So They are allowed to take a salary to comit fraud and theft?

#11174 2 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

I am most definitely not saying the money was spent wisely at all. Not in the slightest. However, you're in serious denial if you think a couple hundred thousand could not have been blown through. JPop rarely left his "studio" (except to bring a couple empty cabs with decals to expo?) but he managed to blow through much more money. If Kevin decided to pay himself a 50K salary over those 3 years, he could have! That's not illegal. Yes, I too would love to see his tax returns though, lol. But come on, every lunch or dinner could be a business expense for the whole team. When he went to CAX alone I recall seeing his wife and mom (and Aaron?) there too. I don't believe they all drove across country (they flew) and guess where that money came from (not just airfare but hotel, meals, etc.) There were numerous shows and this went on for 3+ years. And maybe the folks privy to Kevin's deposition now know the answer but do you really think getting Jamie Hyneman and Adam Savage to show for that event was free?? Heck no. Again, no way Kevin spent the money anywhere near as responsibly as he should have, but I don't think it's hard to blow through money like that. He got way ahead of himself.

Clearly you and Kevin think alike.

11
#11182 2 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

As do you and Whysnow. Keep paying your lawyer. It's not like you're giving him money for something he can never deliver on, right?
At what point do you remove Predator from your Pinside collection?

Keep preaching drop the legal action. Not going to happen. And why would you care, unless affiliated with Kevin?

#11210 2 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:My sole reason for getting my hands on the game was to look at the game code and how they solved several other issues (like boot-up sequence and powering on) for my own P-ROC project. That was it. No other grand conspiracy.

That research story doesn't hold water. Just like Kevin, tell a lie to cover a lie.

14
#11429 2 years ago

Kevin didn't pay for anything, the buyers did. Now he sells all the items and pockets the money and you Kevin lovers are ok with that?
Flame suit on. ?

#11433 2 years ago

And what happened to the supplies and equipment that was never used?
Oh ya, hush hush .

5 months later
#12147 2 years ago

So how long do you think Kevin will be on the run? Weeks? Months?
In what state will the capture / arrest occur ?

#12219 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

Her personal FB page is out there with public viewing too. Looks like she and Kevin hosted a nice holiday party at their place this past Saturday (despite being broke).

Save that page for the judge. I am sure he would love to see it when they cry poor, we have no money. I haven't worked in three years and my wife only earns very little.

#12241 2 years ago

This reminds me of what Gomer Pyle use to say "citizen's arrest" .

#12263 2 years ago

Now Kevin Kulek kids can google him and see what kind of person he is. Then they can brag to their friends what their great role models mom and dad are.

#12273 2 years ago

it just shows that Kevin Kulek and his wife are unfit parents.

#12292 2 years ago

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Kevin Kulek testify that he hasn't had job in the past 3 years? Wife earns $11k a year?
Kevin and Wife spend over 1/10 of their combined income on lavish Christmas presents?
Of course we are assuming he got these on the up in up. There are easier ways to validate that video than a voice print comparison.

#12413 2 years ago

Nothing going to happen until the Marshalls bring him in. He is probably a low priority on their list.

#12485 2 years ago

IIRC, to be a registered native American requires a blood quantum of 1/4 Native American and descent from a registered ancestor for enrollment.
And like who would believe anything he says now. But wait he would have to go to court to prove it.

#12606 2 years ago

What's Kathy Kulek maiden name?

#12921 2 years ago

PayPal was looked at a long time ago.
Kevin lied about PayPal.

#12923 2 years ago

IIRC Pal pay was served. They complied.
If there was money left in pp account Kevin wouldn't of have money to
Buy a house, trailer and a long list of other toys.

#12953 2 years ago

I remember sitting in traffic court a few times where the defendant said he couldn't pay the fine. If you couldn't or wouldn't pay then it was X amount of dollars or X amount of days in jail.
Back then a day in jail = $7 a day towards the fine.

What's the going rate now?

#12957 2 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Was this in 1959? They really should consider bumping up the dollars credited per day served, taxpayers paying hundreds a day to house someone on a two-bit traffic violation seems like a pretty poor use of resources.

Mid '70s

4 weeks later
#14006 2 years ago

Still waiting in Chicago for mine.

2 months later
#15293 2 years ago

The judge is bending over backwards for her. Is he believeing her lies? She shows no proof of of anything. Says the house is a pos but she loves it.
Claims the basement holds 3' of water. If so the furnace/boiler would be trash every time it floods.
No insurance company would right coverage on that property.
And don't forget all the Pred money that was used for repairs and up grades for this pos house that she loves.

Wasn't there testimony that Kevin was footing all the attorneys bills?

Now it sounds like don't bother me we are going on vacation.

Doesn't want anybody to know about her finances. Ill gotten gains are to be kept secret.
I just don't understand why they are allowed to never show any proof.

#15311 2 years ago

You have to look at all the money accounts. Not everyone paid by PP.
Personal checks went the Credit Union account.
Let's see all her money accounts prior to Predator start up.
And all of this should be made public record.

#15314 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Those homes have the furnace (s) and water heaters on the main floor, not in the basement. When built, there was no central heat for small houses.

IIRC there was a receipt for 200 some gallons of fuel oil. Where do they keep the 200 plus gallon tank?

#15383 2 years ago

What's the status of the RV and CNC? Have they been turned over to the court?

#15426 2 years ago
Quoted from c508:

They'll be in court this Thurs May 4... should be something filed by Fri or Mon.

Will there be a motion to have all the profits made by the CNC machine turned over as well as the machine? Call it rent?

1 week later
#15688 2 years ago

Where did the money in Mfcu come from?

#15744 2 years ago

Have Amanda or Kathy turn over all of the banking statements?
Or still playing games?

1 month later
#15985 1 year ago

So where's Virt's Pin contract? 250 cabs is not a large amount. Skit B was going to pf's in his basement, and get out like 5 to 8 pins a month? So why would a business move to a larger space for that? All it did was raise his overhead.
Doesn't make good business sense. Hire more employees to build 5 cabinets a month? Should be able to do that in a day. That story doesn't sound like it holds water.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

#16045 1 year ago

Bottom line did the judge buy this load of crap?

#16405 1 year ago

Yes, one that floats!

#16532 1 year ago

So if old lady Kulek is responding to comments, they didn't loose everything in the flood?

#16611 1 year ago

Just exactly who said they lost everything? The Kulecks?
We know how trust worthy they are.
If you lived on a flood plain wouldn't you tuned in to weather reports and flood warnings?
With all those lap tops you could easily track the weather move the vauleables to higher ground.

1 week later
#16779 1 year ago

They can't dispute the facts, so their defense is to discredit the lawyer. Which means they have no defense.
Maybe they should start watching Perry Mason reruns for tips.

#16815 1 year ago

So this is what's discussed on a "Adult Web site" cool

#16854 1 year ago

Didn't Aaron testify at his dep that Kevin was paying his legal fees?

1 week later
#16920 1 year ago
Quoted from c508:

[Counter-Plaintiffs] Maletich/VP's "RESPONSE TO [Keith's] MOTION TO DISMISS [Maletich/VP's defamation claim]"

Old question, Where's the money? Go ahead and sue, but where's the money?

#16922 1 year ago

have cabinet guy tell it to the judge. 6 cabs = $100k? Contract written with invisible ink?

2 weeks later
#16979 1 year ago

Who is going to watch the kids for 6 months? Has no money but can afford a 6 month vacation in California? Is she talking the kids with her?

#17021 1 year ago

If there is a title to the trailer there is a paper trail. If it was ever insured there is a paper trail.

#17075 1 year ago

So who is going to be Paul's witness? Kevin?

1 month later
#17484 1 year ago

Why can't they do a title search and talk to the previous owner?

3 weeks later
#17517 1 year ago

Wow, they (Kuleks') are really making this judge look like a ****.

#17521 1 year ago

all Kevin got for not appearing was a free taxi ride to court. Why should she expect anything different? The judge has set a precedent, do not show up and all you get is a speech.

#17557 1 year ago

If the asset is gone, it's gone. I am sure she find another one just like it for $250.00