(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

4 years ago



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Topic index (key posts)

86 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #12066 What is PACER and where are you getting the court documents? Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12502 Links to where Kevin gives "his side of the story". Posted by BillySastard (2 years ago)

Post #12515 Updated court filings. Potential cash coming into bankruptcy estate. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12528 Good summation of 2 year look back and possible fraudulent transfers. Posted by flynnibus (2 years ago)

Post #12580 More legal pleadings. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12593 Facts & allegations document for VirtuaPin Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12801 Photos of Experts of Dangerous Posted by fastpinball (2 years ago)

Post #12872 Enaud's account of contacting fox regarding skit-b Posted by Enaud (2 years ago)

Post #13034 Description of an adversary proceeding (or AP) Posted by jasonp (2 years ago)

Post #13477 Discharge of debt denied by order Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13483 Stipulations for waiving chapter 7 discharge Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13528 Audio recording from Jan 27 court hearing regarding bankruptcy filing Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #13729 Summary of legal bankruptcy terminology Posted by Razorbak86 (2 years ago)


Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#2 4 years ago

Let's keep it positive!

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#58 4 years ago

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2 months later
#650 4 years ago

We're comming up on the one year anniversary of the famous mission complete thread!

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/predator-pinball-mission-complete

#683 4 years ago

I feel for you guys that are still waiting on this title that was due in 2013.

2 weeks later
#719 4 years ago

I'm trying to understand why he needed the money 6 months ago?

#772 4 years ago

Sorry you guys are still waiting doesn't seem like it's making as much progress, I hope they start shipping soon for all the owners to be.

#822 4 years ago
Quoted from Trekie:

This really wasn't a hard ride. If you really want to see a train wreck read the JPop threads.

Or how about Stern incomplete code threads. Predator code was complete years before the pin.

How would you like paying $7700 for STLE and 15 months later still waiting for code update?

#831 4 years ago

EOD = worst theme ever

#849 4 years ago

Kevin is at the point where he's got your money. This was not the original plan which was you didn't have to pay until your pin was on deck. That makes far more sense as a buyer so you don't have money sitting in Kevin's pockets for a year plus.

He took more than half of the money and yet people are left hanging for a year plus especially if they are not in the first batch.

#858 4 years ago
Quoted from NinJaBooT:

I can't believe they havnt shipped a game yet?? What's the hold up?

Waiting for the 30th anniversary I believe.

#866 4 years ago

While I appreciat that Kevin likes pinball, he obviously has great ideas and passion. He's also just some kid in a basement.

This would be as if I like cars, know a lot about cars and have good idea. So now I think I'm going to build a car.

That example is an extreme, but apt comparison.

I know a heck of a lot about football, so why am I not coaching in the NFL? Of course I've not paid my dues, I have no track record, I have no formal or informal work in the NFL.

There is a reason why Stern was the only company building pins. Because it's hard. It seems like in the past 3-4 years when money got large other companies wanted to cash in.

Look at how hard it is for JPop and JJP and those guys are vets of pinball or manufacturing games before.

I have doubts about Kevin, Predator etc.. When Stern released IM VE for less money than Predator, to me it was silly to even wait on Predator with so much weirdness surrounding Kevin and his buisness acumen and pinball manufacturing capacity and his chronic delays even just shooting a video or posting or answering emails.

#868 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

rai makes great points as he always does.
As I mentioned before IM VE was the primary reason I got out on Predator. I just don't see how an initial release game can compete with something like Iron Man...Kevin may one day prove he can design games better than Borg and his support staff...but that day is likely not going to come upon release of his first game.

Can't believe you said I make some great points.

Thanks for the compliment, I don't try to pull down Kevin. He probably is a nice guy and all that. I hope Predator is a big success

I am not a huge Predator fan, I'm sure some people would buy it no matter what as it was a dream theme. I was just in for the cool vibe from Kevin but the cold hard facts were not adding up to my liking and IMO Iron Man is a kick ass game we know that so I went with the sure thing.

#871 4 years ago

I wish Stern did somethings like this with full music from the movies etc..

#878 4 years ago

Could you believe we're most way through February 2015 without any TH or MMR or Predator pins (Nemo either) being delivered and no Jpop games are even at prototype / video stage yet?

#939 4 years ago

Let's not forget some of us even made donations to Kevin. Remember that fond time when he was soliciting donations here on Pinside now he's MIA.

Am I allowed to post here if I gave a donation?

#947 4 years ago

How about a 'Hitler is not happy' pin?

HINH for short.

TILTed post. Sign in to be able to view TILTed posts.
#992 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

What fiend would tilt a photo of Scarlett Johanson, the only actress under 30 who actually eats sandwiches?

That's Kate Upton Come on man.

The real Scarlett image-896.jpg

#993 4 years ago

Extra credit of you can name all three.
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#994 4 years ago

The only boobs in Predator
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#1028 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I love Forbidden Planet. I'm sitting in front of the Mondo limited edition movie print even as a type this.
Robbie would make a sweet pin toy, you could have him from just the waist up, so you could make him big, and on a servo that rotates like the AMH ghost, but gear him up so his arms move as he turns

better not have Stern do this one or they may need to shave off the bottom of Robbie's arm.

#1030 4 years ago

I just found out I can set up my account to ignore the ignore feature so I can see all the tastefully shot pictures of Kate.

But I wonder if tilt is the correct thing to warn against Kate Upton pics, I mean does this count again my carma points and will I get penalized for posting a beautiful woman?

Don't forget CFTBL Is as risqué as the picture I posted. PG-13 at worst.

#1031 4 years ago

This is what I love about Pinside, you have a thread about a game that doesn't exist yet on which there is no information. Kevin turns into Marshawn Lynch all the sudden and we are on page 21 of the thread.

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1 week later
-3
#1152 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

at least have the integrity to also post that he said he promises nobody will get left out to dry on this...
bunch of fucking drama queens with pitchforks I tell you.

Talk is cheap, imo Kevin should offer an open invitation to anyone who wants a refund.

kevin started this poop storm when he collected $3000 and he promised the games would be delivered in 2014, no one else should be held hostage if they don't want to wait another indeterminate period of time. Things were fine when the initial deposit was $250. The whole premise for him demanding $3000 was to get the ball rolling.

IMO

#1253 4 years ago

Please note: I have no interest in sabotaging this project, quite the opposite.

However, IIRC Kevin said he got all the rights to the movie, score and even the songs to be used in a commercially sold product. I may be wrong but maybe not, but I believe he said something like $5000 for all the rights.

Now, I don't believe that sounds right. Especially a song like 'Long Tall Sally' (which was licensed by Fox for the film), I don't think that gives Fox the ability to sell that song as a package with the rights to the movie. IOW, at least that song, is a whole separate issue. I also don't know the actors may be a whole other issue. I mean, Disney licenses the PotC movie but not the actors voices. There has to be a reason.

There is a movie "Slapshot" which was made with popular songs, but when it was released on VHS, those songs were replaced with no-name artists so that the movie company did not have to continue to pay for the real artists songs. These songs are big business and I think would cost a bit just to license one song. However if that were the case, I am sure Kevin could just omit that song in that were the issue.

found this link about song costs.

.I love the hockey movie Slap Shot with Paul Newman, and finally got around to getting it on DVD. I have seen it a few times on television before, and am old enough to have seen it in theatres. Problem is, as I listen to the soundtrack on the DVD version, I can’t identify any of the songs that I remember from the movie. What’s up? - M. Q. – via e-mail

This kind of thing happens quite often with both movies and television series. Slap Shot (1977) is the story of a tough bunch of minor league hockey players who struggle to just get through the day, let alone getting to the big time.

Paul Newman was Reg Dunlop, and Michael Ontkean played Ned Braden. For the day, the language was unbelievably salty, although by today’s standards, no big deal, and the rock-‘em-sock-‘em action was all about hurting the other guy.

You are quite right about the music – the songs you heard in the theatrical version, as well as those on the TV version, were all replaced for the VHS and DVD release. The reason is the price for the rights to the music.

When a “little” movie or TV series becomes popular, those whose music was included often want more for the rights. Sometimes the distributors pay, and sometimes they just replace the tunes because it’s much cheaper.

WKRP in Cincinnati had the same problem when the TV series went into syndication. All that great music that was played by Venus Flytrap became too expensive, so it was replaced . . . and the same thing held up the DVD release of that series for years.

#1259 4 years ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

Same thing happened with Married with Children when it was released on DVD. No Frank Sinatra "Love and Marriage" for the opening. It may sound like an overreaction but I can't watch that show without that song. It just doesn't feel right.

Bosom Buddies too, was originally Billy Joel 'My Life' so I was watching the DVD and it was some crap singing a different song.

#1270 4 years ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

Yeah and it isn't even a cover of the song by another singer, it is this really awkward instrumental

this is my only point. I bet "long Tall Sally" is not included in the package deal of Predator license. That's all I was saying. Not that's even anything to be concerned about. I was just saying Kevin could easily say we don't have that song, the pinball machine would still be made. But I suspect if that were the only issue he would have said it already. I am curious too about how much of the movie he has the license to now.

Please don't take that to mean I had anything to do with these mysterious callers. I'm on the side of the Pinsiders all the way. My only issue, if it ever sounded like I was upset, is that Kevin had a plan which was $250 deposit. Then collect money as the pins were being built. He changed that plan to $3000 in advance (and I assume, we all must have assumed that at that point, he would start building and shipping the pins which was 7 months ago now)

-1
#1276 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Maybe he is just punking me, and honestly up until the recent email from Kevin, I figured it was my favorite troll just being a sociopath.

This is not cool behavior. I don't understand why anyone would even care, why piss on this project. Kevin is a cool dude, he has enough to worry about without someone trying to sabotage him.

Also, while I was upset when Kevin asked for most of the money up front, it was not a big deal and he refunded me within a day or so. So I have no ill will at all, I actually made out better since I got IMVE which I really love. So in any case, the change in collecting money just made my life easier. I just check on this tread out of curiosity to see what's going on, and why it's taking so long to build this pin, clearly money should not be an issue.

#1377 4 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

The Skit-B website has the same information on its thats been there for months. There's not supposed to be this much drama in pinball. Ill tell you what, if this game never sees the light of day and my money was stolen from me then I'll be done with this hobby.

That's not fair. The hobby didn't do this to you it was one person. It'd be like saying you are done with the NFL because Ray Rice hit his GF.

#1378 4 years ago

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#1390 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

I think its disingenuous to pull that ONE quote from the email without sharing the bulk of it.
If folks want to keep playing this game of shrouding the communication- ok- well fine. But if you're going to share ONE positive sentence, I think its only fair to share it all. Otherwise, you've really skewed the message.

I'd like to read the emails to see who is sugar coating it or distorting the message as there are allegations both ways.

#1402 4 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

Well one thing is for sure, Stern, JJP and I think Heighway will be the only companies I order pinball machines from in the future. This is starting to make sick, Dutch, JPOP, skitB what a shitshow.

Spooky is good too.

#1417 4 years ago

we're taking this thread off topic.

Lol

#1445 4 years ago
Quoted from DocRotCod:

People... get your money while you can... So crazy to me that there are those who have not done so.

Amen.

This 'problem' is only a major problem because Kevin demanded a $3000 deposit instead of the agreed upon $250 deposit. The $3000 deposit came with an assurance that the pins would be built in a timely manner. It was said the first pins in October 2014.

There is absltly no reason for Kevin to collect $3000 from everyone unless he was building pins very shortly.

We're now in March, and are fast approaching one year anniversary of the infamous demand letter where Kevin demanded $3000 or you were out of the project.

#1493 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

i think this is a classic case of people hearing what they want to hear...
To me, this doesn't say shit about them having a license from Fox for Predator. He used 150 words to say, well, wtf did he say? "Licensing is hard"
How about this:
"Regarding licensing:
We've been granted the licensing to build Predator Pinball!"
9 words.
Wake up everyone. There's a REASON he chooses this convoluted manner of writing. It's not an accident. No more than the sanitation of the website was "website maintenance." There's more info about something called Duckhunt than ANYTHING about pinball on that website... it would be comical if so many people werent out so much cash...

this sums it up for me.

I want everyone to get a kick ass pin, or a full refund. But something about Kevin almost like he's not all there. Cool guy, like to hang with him and have a beer. But he doesn't look like a super successful business man. I know he's probably street smart. But he's playing in the corporate world, with real money. I hate to see anyone get burned, I don't think this was a scam or intentional by Kevin. But clearly he's in over his head. I believe he originally boasted this pin was for 2013 something doesn't add up when a project is 2 years behind schedule he deletes all old videos and won't mention the product on his website. I mean what's up with that?

Predator_Pinball.jpg

#1496 4 years ago
Quoted from Pubaw:

This is an excellent point to make! An excellent point of view. In a judicial sense (who knows, everyone has to at least concede it is possible) part supply may or may not protect later orders. admin. and other manufacturing costs may or may not eat up the rest of the funds on deposit. What is important is tangible assets. It is possible that there are only enough early part fulfillments to insure low number orders will at least get a "Grab Box" ...something...more than hot air? Who knows? Your point is a valid point though and should be discussed/acknowledged by the forum!

Agree, this was why I was happy with $250 deposit and pay as you go with the remainder of the pin. This way if the pins hit a snag or Kevin stops making sense (gee) than the tail enders wouldn't be stuck and would not have to fund in the beginning (AKA June 2014 when they aren't getting their pins until 2016 (likely for the tail enders).

#1499 4 years ago

I found what I call "The demand letter".

I'm going to call it 9 months ago.
------
6-11-14
{snip}As a message to pre-owners who already have an assigned game number and deposit in place to hold your game, if you have yet to meet or exceed a total of $3000 USD towards your machine, this total must be achieved by no later than Saturday, June 28th in order for us to reasonably continue and get these machines built on a schedule that is acceptable for everyone. For most of you, this will be easily handled by using the $2750 option either by mail at the address listed below, or through our PayPal deposits page at the link that follows. Please keep in mind that, at this point, if you choose to finish your balance off completely, the incentives previously discussed will still apply.

For the waitlisters recieving this message, please be advised that at this point in the project, if you receive correspondence from us informing you of an opportunity to move onto the pre-owners' list and get assigned a game, a deposit of $3000 USD will be required in order to acquire said position. This helps us maintain a dedicated pre-owners' list and will keep us steadily moving in the right direction.

What this all means for all of you anxious pinball fanatics is that following the date provided above, we can finally break out of the initial stages of our production cycle and get to assembling these awesome machines and getting them out to you in a matter of a few short months! Thank you all for being a part of this project, now let's get it done and go play some pinball!

-Kevin W. Kulek, Skit-B Pinball

12
#1579 4 years ago

How about I post a pic of Kate or Scarlett every day until 2 weeks are up?

#1581 4 years ago

Ted are you still getting Predator?

#1718 4 years ago
Quoted from beatmaster:

probably true, IF there is another game, i can bet anything price difference will be at least 1k more... but for that it will need a lot more things/toys going on.

Compare this to AMH, Predator has no moving parts except the claw which is a ramp diverter and two up kickers, so basically no moving toys. AMH has ghost, drop target, swinging door, spinning disc, elevator, not sure if there is a subway.

Preadator has nothing to shoot at except for 2 stand up targets in the middle of the PF, it has no side targets, no targets on either side of the ramps. Basically I have never seen a more stripped game, even The Pin has far more targets and moving toys. IMO.

#1720 4 years ago
Quoted from XNIF:

The normal development price for a pinball is around 1 million dollar. They probably developed it for less but give or take when you calculate man hour it's around that price.

This is not true, Gary Stern may have said it cost Stern $1 million to develope a typical game, but that's all he said. He did not break it down in any way. Plus Stern has a team of engineeres, designers, software teams. In short you can not compaire Stern with overhead and health care insurance and 401k plans and Social security taxes to be paid for its workers, you can not compare that to one guy working out of his basement with no overhead.

I'd be shocked if Predator cost a fraction of $1 Million to develope.

Some guy built a Ghostbusters pin in his basement, are you telling me he spent $1M to develope that LOL that's such a laugh.

Kevin built his prototype with pocket money, probably if I were to guess it was less than $10,000 for his prototype. I'll grant you it takes some more money to bring it to production ready but not $990,000 more.

#1724 4 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

The Ghostbusters pin was a re-theme of an existing pin. It is a hell of a pin, but was not a new design built from the ground up.

For all you know Kevin took a Taxi changed the ramps, added a post blocker, movesd some things around, it's not a complicated pin after all.

I'm just saying making a not very complex pin should not cost $1M when you have no overhead or taxes or employees.

Let's hear if if cost Ben $1M to design AMH and that's far more complex than Predator.

#1732 4 years ago

Thanks Ben.

My point is Kevin is probably not paying himself the way 'real' designers like Steve Richie is get paid. Stern is quite different than Skit-B.

Someone likes to sing, can even make a CD that's not the same thing as The Rolling Stones making a CD. It's a similar anology. My friend records CDs for his band he doesn't spend tens of thousands of dollars to do so.

#1750 4 years ago
Quoted from 27dnast:

Just curious, when pre-order folks forked over cash...was there legalese / fine print detailing the rights of the buyer in a detailed pre-order agreement??
This is totally nuts.

I think there was just money sent with Kevin keeping track of deposits on the back of a napkin, ie. No formal contract.

My word is my bond type of deal.

16
#1769 4 years ago

Bump for the snowstorm:

#1798 4 years ago

It's too bad Kevin can't post a copy of the license agreement.

#1844 4 years ago
Quoted from jrawlinson_2000:

Sniff sniff is tha BS?
Would PayPal really 'get into bed' with a start up like Skit B who have no history.

BS.jpg

I can summarize this project in a nutshell. Note: I'm just from the outside looking in.

As Ben said and anyone with an ounce of sense knows it does not cost $1,000,000 to build a prototype or design a pinball machine. Raise your hands if you think Kevin had $1M in his pocket anytime in his life. Or if the developers of WOOLY had access to $1M. Totally ludicrous for anyone to throw out such a sum of money for Predator. I'm not saying a game like WoZ or AcDc were cheap, they might have cost that or more. But we are not talking WOZ or AcDc. We are talking Predator, let's put that notion to bed, as Ben said $50k (if that) as Kevin likely was working with a small budget. Much like a movie can be made for under $1M

Point two, Kevin said he needed $750K to begin assembling machines starting 7-8 months ago that's when he needed the money.

Point three, Kevin did not start building the machines 7-8 months ago, now he says he has the money in a safe place.

My point why in the first place did Kevin need $750,000 if he was not building machines all these months? If the money needs to be kept in a safe place for when the machines are to build in the future, why did he need to collect so much money? No place safer than in my bank account, and it would force Kevin to make progress or show results for him to collect more.

#1881 4 years ago
Quoted from cooldan:

how many days to go now? everyone was saying 'two weeks' but that was ages ago. is it now 9 days? 8?

So this is my 3rd picture of Kate or Scarlett, (un-official count, I said I'd post a pic a day until the 2 weeks are up)

PS this is the best one yet.

#2065 4 years ago

To say the least, Kevin should post something or at least answer his phone to explain what's going on.

I heard Ted say several months ago also that there was no problem with the license and he just reiterated that a week ago. Ted obviously communicated with Kevin. I don't know why we need a go between. Why does Kevin need to talk to Ted so Ted can talk to us? It seems so mysterious and leads to all kinds of conspiracy theories.

I think it's true many of us don't have a vested interest in the project any more which but I don't think we need to have censorship so that only happy thoughts are posted.

If any anger is due here it should be directed to one and only one person.
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#2068 4 years ago

Hope you all get your Pins soon.

#2100 4 years ago

Better call Ted.

#2104 4 years ago

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#2126 4 years ago
Quoted from jellikit:

I am sorry, what was the topic again?
http://blip.tv/arcadehunters/skit-b-pinball-s-predator-pinball-machine-6589059
predator.png (Click image to enlarge)

I like the way one guy is trying to lift the pin and the other guys are just standing by.

#2127 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Get this girl a sammich, stat! Can't believe what shes done to herself.
Jennifer-Connelly-Running.jpg (Click image to enlarge)2

Sad.

#2132 4 years ago

If you need to clense you mind from that skinny picture, (please nobody repost that pic again) just watch this video and you'll feel better.

https://vimeo.com/41393068

#2133 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

I KNOW!!

373911-i.jpg

I thought the camera was supposed to add 10 lbs.

#2136 4 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

Looks like someone had fun with the clone/heal tool in Lightroom. Parts of her leg and neck are actually missing as they've been Photoshopped out. Yeah, she definitely looked better when she had curves and was younger but still looks damn good for being 44!

I was thinking, like what they did in Captain America with Steve Rogers before the transformation.

image.jpg

#2138 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Predator is so late that people are worried the internet will run out of boob pics before it's out?

#2142 4 years ago

In case you haven't seen it, The Machinist was a cool movie, no funny camera tricks.

image.jpg
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#2146 4 years ago

Is that a dude dressed up like Byonce?

#2167 4 years ago
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

jessicaalba.gif

Jessica!

#2201 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Ya'll are forgetting about JESSICA BIEL!

Jessica-Biel1.jpg (Click image to enlarge)
jessica-biel-workout4x5.jpg

'Powder Blue' horrible movie but great striper scenes with Jessica Biel.

But what's with the man arms?

And

#2211 4 years ago

With those arms she'd be better help than my wife setting up pins that's for sure.

#2303 4 years ago

18 years in April

I think the next update will be legendary, after all this buildup it had better be more than "We're making progress hang in there a little while longer..."

#2307 4 years ago

What could be better than boobs? (Hint Jessica Alba).


#2375 4 years ago

If they had to change the art, that would be the most positve news I've heard.

#2389 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Every single photograph I take goes through photoshop before I post it on my Flickr account. So I guess all my photos are technically "photoshopped"!

Yellowstone3.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

I'm going to Yellowstone this summer, Arches, Grand Canyon, Craters of the moon etc..

My wife tries to be a more serious photographer, hope we can get some pics like that. What area of Yellowstone is that?

#2407 4 years ago
Quoted from SPeD66:

I just spent the last two hours unhiding images (thanks, & I mean it) & scrolling (not reading) through tons of new posts since my last visit.
Several things I've noticed/decided:
A) Absolutely no news from SkitB. Glad I bailed when I did, even if it wasn't by choice at the time. Even more glad I received my deposit.
B) Ignoring whysnow from now on.
C) Best wishes for Predator. I hope it turns out well & makes me wish I was still on the list upon release. Dream-theme for yours truly. But I just couldn't hang on.

If you don't wish for any hidden posts there is a setting so you can view posts with boobs but still be able to hide persons such as Whysnow which I totally understand.

#2481 4 years ago

From reading those emails, followed by nothing from Kevin (and I bet he's lurking on this thread). I would say Kevin is somewhat unstable. Those emails make zero sense and he'd have been better off saying nothing than what he did. If he says those who ask for refunds will get refunds and at the same time says actions speak louder than words. How about this for actions either ship the pins already it's been 'complete' for over a year allegedly or if he doesn't or can't ship the pins give the damn refunds already. What's the hold-up, if the money is secure than refund it where it will be truley safe form nefarious plots.

#2567 4 years ago

What should be done is refund everyone, maybe keep $250 as a deposit and when the game is finalized (real final game not the crap he was pushing in his fake mission accomplished post over 13 months ago) after that time he should collect the huge deposits he said he needed for building the pins.

You guys know what $3000 invested in the stock market 9-10 months ago would have grown to (probably $3500+)

#2763 4 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

What does the stock market have to do with anything?
For most folks purchasing a pinball machine this is play money, not money which was ever going to be dedicated to an investment portfolio.
I just hope all of the folks involved in the Predator fiasco get their cash back.

Not to defend Keneda, but there is a saying 'time is money', and also 'today's dollars are worth more than future dollars'. That's one reason why WoZ was offered at $6500 a few years in advance of its delivery, it was sold at a discount. you were paying in 2011 dollars for a pin you got in 2013-14.

When Kevin demanded, he didn't ask for the $3000, he demanded it, he set a timeline that if you didn't submit to his schedule you were off the project entirely. He demanded the money and he said "I'll be building and shipping the pins in a few short months also he said ~October 2014. Both of those times were fraudulent and yet he did not send back the money which is a bitchy thing to do. When you promise something in a certain timeframe and he may be a year or years late if he ever does make the game. What right does Kevin have to you guys money if he not doing anything for all these months now since he obtained three quarters of a million dollars?

Not saying everyone invests in the stock market, probably very few Pinsiders put long green in the market. But the fact does not change that any money taken out of my overall pile of money, would effect the amount I have to invest. If I buy a new car, that's less to invest. If I go on an expensive vacation, less to invest. All money is taken from one pile of moeny, so if you subtract $3000 that's just as well saying you take $3000 out of the stock market if you invest. You didn't invest in the stock market you invested in Kevin's bank account. You didn't buy a pin really because no pin exists that he can sell you, you payed for a chance at a pin. I did not invest in Kevin, but I would be PO'ed if I had.

Now, in theory, the stock market could have gone down or could have gone sideways but the reality of what has happened is that the stock market (US average) has gone up 17% maybe more not sure with dividends might be close to 19% in the past year. My stock of choice AAPL probably closer to 60% in this time since Kevin collected his war chest.

#2765 4 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

isn't the NFL a non-profit ?

Just the NFL association, not the teams. The NFL is like a social club, it sets the rules, negotiated contracts for the owners. The NFL Does not keep the money of takes in from TV or merch or ticket sales.

I have no idea how Skit-B could be not for profit either.
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#2768 4 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Opportunity cost should be the least of anyone's concerns with the way things are now.

No use crying over spilled milk (my dad used to say especially after I spilled milk ironically), it's water under the bridge, no use to shut the door after the horses are gone etc..

I'll lay off the stock commentary, I do hope Kevin get things sorted out soon for you guys.

#2771 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

"Friends, Romans, countrymen, The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones"; So let it be with Kevin........ This guy is trying to make things right, before everyone makes a run on the bank, let the man resolve the issues. Yes he frankly screwed this up much worse than it needed to be with his silence but again like TBL if the issues are on the mend, the community (this is still a community right?) should help him not bury him.

Best post in this thread.

There's a word for this situation is a tragicomedy.

#2772 4 years ago
Quoted from beatmaster:

why is it so hard to tell us who's gonna build the game? again, no real infos...bla bla bla
i don't know how he's going to pull this off.
i never understood why only 250 games? if he's really getting someone/company (insert secret name here)________________, why stop at 250, go ahead man make them until there is no more demand, simple. that's the only way he's going to make money.
i believe he never understood what a real licence is (if he ever had one).
if you don't know what you're doing... don't do it.

He made up 250 number BS so that people would get a limited edition, make Tron LE look like a big number by comparison. Never mind the fact that Tron LE is worth more than other more limited games like 24 or CSI because it's good. 250 was to make people sweat, and worry that they needed to pay in advance or they would not get in the club. Notice TWD "my stars, there is no premium, better order the LE quick"

It's the oldest trick in the bag.

-1
#2823 4 years ago
Quoted from johngravenews:

Just asked for a refund but not convinced I'll get it. I'd be happy staying in for the original $250 deposit but too many unknowns now for me
Hell, I'd stay in for a $1000 deposit which would give Kevin $250,000 to help tie down the licences etc.
Such a shame. Probably the strongest licence possible for me. A fully working prototype and it all looks like it's fallen apart.
If Heighway pinball can get the licence for Aliens then Predator must be available on a similar deal.
If they sort the licence deal and offer some transparency then how mmany of us would jump back in?

I'd be more interested if Heighway or Stern did a whole new pin with the liscence with 'features' meaning magnets, side targets, maybe a target that pops up like a monger or Troll type target. Some type of feature found on pins made in the last 20 years.

For real Stern can do this pin more justice, and for sure they could sell more than 1000 pins and surely Fox would rather deal with a larger production run and also rather deal with a real company not some kid who lives in his mom's house and is producing the game in her basement/kitchen. It's almost laughable that Kevin thought he could make these pins and certainly laughable in hind site when you see the Predator pinside logo still has the caption 2013 (lol).

#2828 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Alien apparently will have 3 or 4 toys on it, plus color LCD. And it's priced competitively ($6k).

That's more like it.

In hindsight, Kevin bit off more than he could chew.

He should have started with an unlisenced pin. Call it Outer Space or whatever. He makes it as Predator layout which is basically a Taxi with less features. Then he sells it, brings it to conventions people like it and buy it, word of mouth maybe he sells 100 units. But he will learn how to build pins, learn how to run a buisness.

You don't give a kid like Kevin $750,000 and feel he is capable of building a pin that can compete with ST or Tron or IM or Met or TWD all of which cost under $5000. It's a sad joke, but people were buying this because they like the movie/theme and Stern had not made a pin of Predator. Any bank in the world would laugh this guy out of the building. So he goes to Pinside instead of a bank and he's sitting on $750,000 to $800,000 in other peoples hard earned money and doesn't even have the decency to account for his delays. He tells Ted all is well, puts Ted and Aaron's good names on the line for his BS, but doesn't have the guts to tell us in person. He was here all happy days before he got his hands on the loot, but now that he has your money he's a ghost.

Stern could totally make a kick ass Predator pin for $4750.

I don't think (honestly) anyone want's a pin with only 2 targets to shoot at, and those being danger targets close to the middle of the PF. Not drop bank like AMH or drop targets like TNT which would at least give you something more to shoot at. No side targets? I know those are more or less just secondary to the main shots like on ST. Or Tron but they can be useful as well as stand up targets next to the ramps like Drone targets or Pirate targets. Come on, am I the only person that sees this is the simplest, least target rich pin since EM days?

Think of IRON MAN side targets and Drone targets, now take those out of IM, take out the magnets and take out the rising Monger figure and you have hardly anything to shoot at besides the main shots. Predator should have side targets (IMO) which could be to reload guns or have a FUEL lane for AMMO or whatever, but clearly Kevin made this pin with the least number of parts possible. Sure the rules are cool, but the layout seems very limited. Look at Taxii, Predator doesn't comes close to the number of shots.

#2979 4 years ago
Quoted from PinB:

No. I've been asking for a refund since the beginning of this year (January) & have not received any kind of response from Kevin. I've even sent several of the refund requests as replies to personal messages that Kevin had written to me in the past, so I know he's receiving them.

If Kevin were a man of his word and someone I'd call a friend (I don't know him) but if he were a man of his word he should be sending out refunds as quickly as possible. He's already gotten a 10 month free loan. He said people that want refunds will be taken care of, he said actions speak louder than words. This is what Kevin said. (Has that been true so far?).

Kevin said he would accept a $250 deposit and half as your pin was on the que and half as it was shipping. Total BS.

Kevin said he would be building the pins in 2013 but and said he'd really would be building pins in 2014 and he said there was no problem with the lisense. He said he had the rights to every single sound, music score and song (Long Tall Sallie) and imagees from the movie, has any of that been true? He has been lying or dishonest whatever you want to call it since day one.

He sais he is working things out (who believes this) but that should have nothing to do with refunds.

image.jpg

#2998 4 years ago

image.jpg

image.jpg

#3009 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Do people think a bunch of cash is mysteriously gone?

Actions speak louder than words and silence is deafening.

My guess Kevin never had more than a few thousand dollars in his life before he got nearly a million dollars, and since then he's been a ghost. Come on Kevin chime in and correct everyone.

You ever see Breaking bad? The episode when Walt gave his life savings to buy the RV? How'd that go?

-1
#3015 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Say what you want, Kevin has been lying just like John.

OR Just pull the plug and life goes on. I.e. Jpop

Sorry I stopped looking at Jpop thread not enough boobs. But are you saying Jpop pulled the plug on his games?

#3109 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

That RV was a great investment, it grew into 80 million dollars.
Kevin should be so lucky.

You never saw the episode, the money was spent at a strip club by Jesse who blew it on Strippers and booze, Jesse only got the RV from his friend who steals it from his mom.

-1
#3168 4 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

I don't see how the $5k price tag was even justified with the game not having a single mechanical toy...ST pro, XMEN pro, ACDC pro, Metallica pro, etc all have at least one mechanical toy and cost less then $5k NIB.
I hope those that want their money back get it soon.

IMO...IM blows this pin away, Tron blowed it away x10, ST, Met Etc.. Predator is lucky to be in the $5000 ball park, theme alone I suppose. There is ZERO chance that if they uncap the number they sell 1000 (or 500) pins at $4750 and ZERO times a million if they charge more than that.

The only reason I was remotely interested was because it was relatively in-expensive and had an OK theme, if you include everything from the movie (every call out, movie score, long tall sallie, the works). Now if you take away the price advantage if you raise the price, take away most of the movie stuff like call outs and music and songs. You're telling me people will pay more especially when the owner head of the company is not a man of his word.

I have no vested interested, but Kevin needs to have some shame and come on here and admit what he did and stop lying.

#3225 4 years ago

For this QA round table. Here's a question.

Why did Kevin require $3000 back in June?

It was supposed to be for building pins 'in a few short months'. Now it's been more than a few short months. CLEARLY, Kevin is not building any pins, he is working out both the license as well as working out who is going to build the machine. In other words he's about 1/3 of the way to actually building the pin, and may be way less than 1/3 of the way there if he had to do a ground up rebuild with the proper call outs, music, art etc...

So if the $3000 was suposed to be for building the pins 'in a few short months', then what is Kevin still doing with the money?

Either he's stolen it, or he's keeping it as a ransom meaning holding the money hostage so that people don't give him the flying bird as they take their money and buy a real actual pin.

Kevin is in clear breach of contract, he has not delivered any pins and he has past his promised dates and he has not given a clear true time for the pins to be built.

I suggest if any want a refund, you contact Kevin either email, phone, letter, smoke signal whatever works. Tell him he is in clear breach of contract and that you will go to court and as well as your deposit you will seek your personal legal fees as damages.

I'm not a lawyer, maybe ICE can chime in, but I believe this is open and shut. Kevin can not keep your money indefinitely. I was in on Jpop fiasco and managed to receive a full refund. One of my best friends is a lawyer who said clearly John was in the wrong and (I am sure the same would apply to Kevin).

Certifed letter, state you give him 2 weeks from the date he recieved the letter to have a full refund or you will go to court which he certainly doesn't want.

Now.. Sorry to say I don't know anything about who, what, where, how to go to court over this. But I'm sure someone can say, and I even believe you can have the court in your own home state. Again, I'm not a lawyer, it didn't get that far with John. I think if Kevin has an ounce of brains he would rather issuing refunds than fight it out in court.

#3227 4 years ago

This is from Wikipedia, I'm sure there is more specifics involved but I am on vacation so I can't cite more at this time.

---------

Breach of contract is a legal cause of action in which a binding agreement or bargained-for exchange is not honored by one or more of the parties to the contract by non-performance or interference with the other party's performance. If the party does not fulfill his contractual promise, or has given information to the other party that he will not perform his duty as mentioned in the contract or if by his action and conduct he seems to be unable to perform the contract, he is said to breach the contract.[1]

A breach by anticipatory repudiation (or simply anticipatory breach) is an unequivocal indication that the party will not perform when performance is due, or a situation in which future non-performance is inevitable. An anticipatory breach gives the non-breaching party the option to treat such a breach as immediate, and, if repudiatory, to terminate the contract and sue for damages (without waiting for the breach to actually take place). For example, A contracts with B on January 1 to sell 500 quintals of wheat and to deliver it on May 1. Subsequently, on April 15 A writes to B and says that he will not deliver the wheat. B may immediately consider the breach to have occurred and file a suit for damages for the scheduled performance, even though A has until May 1 to perform.

#3243 4 years ago

Check your junk mail maybe that's where all the emails are going.

#3480 4 years ago

I agree people should chill out, and I hope the people who still want the darn pins eventually get them and the people who,want refunds get them.

I would not give Kevin another cent personally. I think he's worse than John (did I just say that?)

Anyway chill out and watch this video around ten times.

#3494 4 years ago
Quoted from NPO:

If the pre-pay/pre-order model survives after this, it will be nothing short of a miracle.

The only reason it hasn't got as toxic with Jpop, probably less people invested with Jpop, and John is a nice guy (or seems to be) and john seems to be legit, he still acts like he's trying to build pins. Kevin doesn't have John's credibility and doesn't care a lick for the people who trusted him. And throws his friends like Aaron and Ted under the bus.

#3562 4 years ago

I'm all for giving Kevin more time to work this out, and build the pins eventually, I see that being another year before they start shipping (just a wild guess but as good as any).

However, some people would like a refund, and since Kevin does not have a game to sell, since he lied his ass off repeatedly about his ability to deliver a game, it's clear legally and morally Kevin should refund anyone who asks. If he doesn't have enough money to refund people who ask he should go bankrupt and proceed from square one.

Basically, to me this project is at the same place as it was when it was first announced 3 years ago. It's a concept to build a pin based on Predator. They have a prototype game but not much else. Kevin should proceed from there. He should not be sitting on $750,000 while people who were lied to want their money back. I know how difficult it is to work and save $3000 it's not Kevin's money, it's not up to him to decide if he wants to keep it or refund it.

Bottom line, especially Ted or Aaron if you talk to Kevin explain that he is breach of contract and his top priority should be cutting checks. Not in two weeks, today.

#3853 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

No one would be dumb enough to leave the money in a Paypal account.
They are not a bank, they are not FDIC insured.

I keep hearing people say Kevin isn't dumb. But I can't find anythig to back that up. He's certainly not in the mensa society.

#3889 4 years ago

I can not believe for the life of me how Whysnow is still defending Kevin. Kevin is such a liar it's obvious to all but one person on this thread. Kevin knew he didn't have the right to build the pin the moment he removed all videos etc.. Does anyone recall of that was before or after he demanded $3000 deposit?

#4055 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Only one thing is for sure:
This has the makings of an absolutely EPIC "Hitler Reacts" video.

Maybe when I get back to the states, stay tuned.

Edit: If I do make the video it's to poke fun at the situation, not to laugh or put down people that lost money. I don't think its funny what Kevin did and I strongly sympathies with all who are out money. I am a professional, but my family is blue collar construction. One time my dad started a buisness of his own, he paid hit workers and for materials did the job etc.. But didn't get paid fully for the job, there was a bancrupsy of the people he did the job for and he got pennies on the dollar even though he had paid for all his workers and materials etc.. It made my dad end up folding his buisness and going to work for another company. I sympathize with you guys that are out money.

But at the same time, if I make a video, it will be to poke fun of the situation (as if Hitler was pre-paid). This would not mean I'm laughing at you guys that are out of pocket. But more to say this has turned into a tragicomedy.

28
#4066 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I wonder when people are going to start contacting IP owners for every other pin manufacturer. Has anyone reached out to WWE to make sure Stern has the license? game of Thrones is rumored to be next, anyone know they have the correct IP rights acquired?
Are people actively reaching out to make sure Alien is licensed.
Has Mr. x contacted the hobbit IP holders also?

You need to stop defending Kevin, he's a clown. No two ways about it, to suggest that Jack or Gary Stern are as tissue thin as Kevin is totally uncalled for. Are you blind? WWE, The Hobbit, WoZ, SM, LOTR. POTC, Tron. We're dealing with Disney, WWE, Paramount, WB. These are the heavy hitters. Disney alone make more money in 8 hrs, than Stern pinabll company makes in a year.

Anyway, stop kissing Kevin's ass, he is the only one to blame for this fiasco, not Jack, not Gary, not Mr X. If Kevin had what he needed and what he said he had, there wouuld not be this fiasco.

To insunuate anything against Stern or JJP is pathetic.

#4080 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

One of the most important questions to be answered in this whole fiasco in terms of potential fraud/criminal charges is whether Kevin received a C&D letter from Fox before he asked for the additional payments?
If so, he's really going to be in deep shit.

I'm not against Kevin per say, let's call him a bad buisnessman at best. But if he collected/demanded $3000 for deposits after the C&D from Fox, I would expect he does some time in jail because that's not cool. It's one thing to be a duffas, but if he was running a long con IMO that's very serious.

I have not inside knowledge, but let's hope Kevin is just dumb rather than a criminal.

#4091 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I'm sure a lot of whatever is happening behind the scenes right now is to SAVE EoD. Somehow pull something off where the company can still exist and proceed with their next game, which they've apparently spent a lot of time (and money) working on.

By save their next pin do you mean changing it to a theme that people would be remotely interested in?

Face it. The only reason anyone outside of his immediate family and friends/coworkers ever knew who Kevin is, is because he leached onto Predator.

Here's me, I live with my mom, she also runs my company and cuts the crust off my sandwiches. Now I'm going to build a pin called EOD it's about something (Myth busters or somethig that's on some cable channel, maybe some people have seen it?).

Same sentence as above except substitute Predator or Star Wars or Pulp Fiction and you have a lot of people's attention.

#4096 4 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

I have no idea who Mr. X is, but Kevin's partner or colleague at Skit-B Pinball was Aaron Klumpp. I'm not sure what the actual business arrangement was between the two?
I did run across a lengthy video of both Kevin and Aaron holding a seminar at the NWPAS 2013. The video is dated Jun 12, 2013...
» YouTube video
At that point, Aaron seemed fully engaged. When did he actually leave the project, and what was the stated reason?

Once Aaron left, I was 99.9 out the door, it seemed odd, also there was no explanation why even though it was asked at the time. Also Aaron really seemed like the brains of that duo, at one time early on I though Aaron was Kevin and Kevin was some kid tag along who was there for comic relief.

#4110 4 years ago
Quoted from cooldan:

so ....... is it boobs time yet?

I only wish Kevin's Magic paint worked half as well...

Edit she deserves two..

#4427 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

And not saying it's ok but truth be told had this group not meddled games may have ended up in folks hands.

Just so I can understand you, like Kevin feel that stealing IP is no big deal. Better if Kevin had gotten away with theft so long as the first few buyers got their pins.

#4434 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

You're a day late with that one. You're going to have to own up to your part of this, trying to temper people while you knew exactly what was going on.

I'm wondering about JPop's situation also with Fast.

#4446 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Rai,
Just saying two wrongs don't make a right . Ideallt it was legit . Secondly I would rather hear about 250 rogue games made than this. Clearly mr x group was more malicious than helpful by their choice to support fox busting Kevin over telling buyers .
Please don't turn out be part of this group...

Ok but there is a reason for copyrights and I don't think it's ok to steal just because it's a small run no big deal.

This can blowback on all future legitimate pinball projects. Cost more or refuse any requests for licences, it hurts more if this was not stopped before any pins ship.

17
#4673 4 years ago

Why is 10PINGRN down voting every post that says Kevin is a crook or a dirty rotten scoundrel?

#4677 4 years ago
Quoted from Erik:

After reading the wordpress site, at least now I have a pretty good idea of who Mr. X is. Disappointing he sat on this info at the request of Fox's attorney (to whom he was not beholden) while there was still a chance for some buyers to exercise paypal disputes.

The argument overall was well written and thorough, but I can not understand why this was not made public sooner. I agree the writing was on the wall for a long while Whysnow notwithstanding I believe when 2015 came and no pins that this project was doomed.

#4679 4 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

You SIR (Aaron) get the whole damn sash for this BS !
Hell, I have to create a whole new category of badges for you.
douchebag-merit-badges.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

Note to self never buy anything from Fast pinball Aaron, no friend of pinsiders, but apparently a friend of Kevin and he does not deserve to be called sir which is usually a term of endearment.

#4681 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Really Aaron, I'm sorry to say, but other than Whysnow, you had a bigger impact on convincing people that there was no issue with the license than anyone on Pinside. And actually, speaking for me personally, you had a much bigger impact on me than Whysnow.
It was based on your posts here that I had largely recanted some of my well documented criticism/doubt about any license existing, when you clearly implied that you had seen the actual Predator license agreement from Fox.
I had even indicated, in response to moderator Xerico, that it would have been nice if you specifically came out and stated whether you saw the actual license, but that it was clearly implied from your post(s). You let that sit, without further explanation, leading me to believe that you had actually seen the license agreement based on your friendship with Kevin...who is a great guy.
I swear to God, if I had a dime for every time I saw someone on Pinside post about what a nice guy Kevin is, I'd be a damn millionaire.

Aaron (Fast) is also leading the chear for Jpop just saying.

#4688 4 years ago

I think that guy that called the cops on Kevin was right on, but he was very harshly set upon by many here. People need to stop vouching for people like Kevin. I know Ted is a great guy but really please don't say everything is fine with the liscence which you said months ago also with Aaron don't know when he got involved in calming the naysayers, but it turns out the naysayers were far more correct than him (Aaron) a supposed insider and good friend of Kevin.

#4690 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

We had not been able to make any meaningful progress with John.
Aaron
FAST Pinball

Ok, sorry I have not been following the Jpop thread anymore. Also, while I may have been out of line negatively about you personally, but with how tight you and Kevin are, and you were saying to everyone to calm the f-down when you may have know that Kevin never had a liscense and was under C&D action which in my book is not cool.

No matter how small a number it was, I know it's not going to kill Fox, but it's not cool to steal IP or assist in the attempt to steal IP.

#4695 4 years ago

I don't know either but would it be possible for Fox to have got a sales list and seized the offending pins if they were built? Fox wouldn't pay for them, Kevin would have been on the hook so it's really best these were never built.

I think even though these pins are home use mainly, Fox wouldn't want to set a precedent that as long as you get them made under the radar you are safe to buy unlicensed pins. Note I am not sure what would occur, but even though the buyer is not at fault, I believe they could be ordered to return the pins to Fox for disposal. Note: I'm unclear about this but it's almost reminds me of when you buy a counterfiet SB ticket that's the buyers problem, not the NFLs.

#4705 4 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

From the get-go I always wondered how a small start up could acquire and afford a major IP license like Predator - but in the end I never really questioned it publicly or gave it much thought after I saw prototypes. I just figured they would not have gone that far if they did not have one.
To my fault, I am a honest guy and I always assume others are also.
I feel really bad for all involved.

While back 5-6 weeks in this thread I pointed out that for example 'Long Tall Sallie' would certainly be a whole other license, IOW no way Kevin had recieved the rights to everything as he claimed. Music is expensive. At the least I suspected Kevin on that account but I had no idea he was lying about everything. But the rumblings have been around for a while but unfortunately since Kevin was not refunding anyone it didn't matter unless it was for CC chargeback deadlines.

Side note, can Kevin even use you guys money for lawyer payments? Doesn't seem right.

#4709 4 years ago

Bottom line for me, unless I'm a close friend of a new builder, there is ZERO chance of me sending money for a pin that is not already in production or shipping.

Too much risk, Kevin really ruined it for future boutique makers, or makes it more difficult than it already is for start ups.

#4710 4 years ago

P.S. Maybe be in the future there needs to be proof of lisence not for makers like Stern or JJP but smaller guys like DP etc.. They should have a letter of proof that lisence are in fact valid.

3 weeks later
#7827 4 years ago

This is starting to sound like an episode of Breaking Bad or Sopranos.

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