(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion

By Xerico

4 years ago

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  • Latest reply 70 days ago by Cobra99
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Topic index (key posts)

86 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #12066 What is PACER and where are you getting the court documents? Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12502 Links to where Kevin gives "his side of the story". Posted by BillySastard (2 years ago)

Post #12515 Updated court filings. Potential cash coming into bankruptcy estate. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12528 Good summation of 2 year look back and possible fraudulent transfers. Posted by flynnibus (2 years ago)

Post #12580 More legal pleadings. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12593 Facts & allegations document for VirtuaPin Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12801 Photos of Experts of Dangerous Posted by fastpinball (2 years ago)

Post #12872 Enaud's account of contacting fox regarding skit-b Posted by Enaud (2 years ago)

Post #13034 Description of an adversary proceeding (or AP) Posted by jasonp (2 years ago)

Post #13477 Discharge of debt denied by order Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13483 Stipulations for waiving chapter 7 discharge Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13528 Audio recording from Jan 27 court hearing regarding bankruptcy filing Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #13729 Summary of legal bankruptcy terminology Posted by Razorbak86 (2 years ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#723 4 years ago
Quoted from rolandthoms:

...because he is building pinball machines

A majority of vendors/suppliers operate on terms like net 30. You do not need the money until 30 days after parts are delivered. In fact, there is a large amount that due net 60 days...some even 90 days. As the purchaser you are also in a position to negotiate/demand different terms based on the order size and the trust in your business to survive. Being a start up I guess you would not have a major influence unless you were soliciting orders from other "New" type (start-up) vendors/suppliers...they are out there.

#843 4 years ago
Quoted from TenaciousT:

At the Michigan Pinball Expo a few years ago Predator was set up right across from Greg Freres and his Whoa Nellie . I told Kevin he should have that guy come over and do some doodling on the Predator . He should have taken my advice !

I was there and remember that. It was straight ahead when you walked in (Predator) and Nellie was to the right when you walked in. That was a great show and had lots of games. Even two rooms on first floor with games due to the overflow. The last two shows have been less machines and only upstairs.

#855 4 years ago

Huh? I thought games shipped last Dec? I remember someone even made a bet about it?

#864 4 years ago

What boggles my mind is Game #2. On one hand, like Jared says, Kevin may have been in deep and still is. I get that. But we have all been there in our life. If you are in deep when you do not take on more. On the other hand maybe he thought he could handle it? This part really blows my mind when I ponder it. If everything was under control and customers happy (a high% I mean, you can never please everyone) then sure, you take on a new project so as to eliminate gaps in your business (peaks and valleys are costly and difficult for start ups). If things are not under control then the last thing you do is take on a new project and jeopardize the business as an entity with unacceptable risk!

Which is it here? I have no idea....what is implied is maybe he was on overload and did not own up to it and thought he could "Do it all". If true, a good Program or Project Manager could have prevented much of this and kept the customer base at ease. A Project Manager drives timelines, coordinates suppliers and associated cost, has good communication with the customer(s), maintains tight budget control while the "Exec's" are off doing what they need to do relative to their vision of the company.

What was missing in my opinion? Yes, a Project Manager from day! Kevin (being a techno type guy it seems) would be able to do what he needed to do while a home base Project Manager kept things in order.
My 2 cents

#937 4 years ago
Quoted from Half_Life:

In reality, it suggests that the one with the fewest assumptions is the most likely correct. Therefore, the answer with fewest assumptions is that SkitB is building machines.

Actually, without a machine present and verifiable, you are assuming Skit is building machines. The correct statement, with no assumptions, is" The answer with fewest assumptions is that SkitB is not building machines".

1 week later
#1331 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Since (mostly because of SkitB) we are left to conjecture, here's what I think we're going to see:
A sad, mournful email that stated that due to circumstances beyond his control, Predator can't be made. The reasons will be vaguely shared, but there may be some inference that jealous interlopers conspired to make things harder.
The "good news" will be that that no one will be left "out to dry" and all Predator pre-payers will get - a discount off EOD. If they'd like a refund, it will have to come after SkitB can transfer their order to someone else waiting in line.
So you want to sue SkitB for not delivering Predator? Hmmm, what's Predator? See anything about Predator on their website? Try finding a public statement that "the game" he's making is called Predator.... All the updates I've seen over the last year or two talk about "the game"
Yes, plenty of conjecture there, but I think it now makes just as much sense as believing "everything is fine". AND conjecture will fill the vacuum of facts that SkitB has brought upon itself.
I'd love to be wrong.... But at least people may get "a game"

I just wanted to say I really enjoy your posts. They are very specific with valid and mature points of view. During this entire thread, when I see your name on a post I especially look forward to reading it Ok, enough sunshine for you but thanks again. Oh yeah, Aurich has really good posts, like you, as well. Are you two related?

#1386 4 years ago
Quoted from PW79:

I heard some dbag Pinsider is trying to sabatoge the game?
Is this really true?

As stated here by another pinsider, perhaps the person called fox because of the lack of communication from Skitb. In other words, it is like a stock. You have to conduct due diligence. He/she may have called to determine if this investment indeed did have the license? Or like a bad stock, it could go down the tubes if untruths are uncovered?

Just a thought.

#1394 4 years ago
Quoted from urbanledge:

In fairness you gave your hard earned cash to them.
If you loose money its your own fault and no body elses.
Dont say its skitbs fault either,they didn't put a gun to your head.
start ups go tits up every day of the week and people loose more than 7 or 8K .

Totally disagree with your post. In everyday life we all enter into contracts. Buying gas for your car, buying groceries, etc. A failed contract with a merchant is always the fault of the side that does not deliver as promised. Any court in the US would agree with me. Placing blame on the party that fulfilled their side of the contract is just wrong!

#1460 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

That is easy for *you* to say when your game is among the first ten sitting in pieces at their place. What about the other 240 people who ordered a Predator and would like to actually get one?

This is an excellent point to make! An excellent point of view. In a judicial sense (who knows, everyone has to at least concede it is possible) part supply may or may not protect later orders. admin. and other manufacturing costs may or may not eat up the rest of the funds on deposit. What is important is tangible assets. It is possible that there are only enough early part fulfillments to insure low number orders will at least get a "Grab Box" ...something...more than hot air? Who knows? Your point is a valid point though and should be discussed/acknowledged by the forum!

#1464 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I kinda skimmed this thread but man, what another cluster-F in the jolly ol' land of pinball. I gotta say - I don't get why you're aiming your vitriol at Jared, or anyone for that matter who isn't Skit-B.
It's as simple as this:
-Skit-B said they'd make Predator pinball in 2012
-Skit-B took your money.
-It's 2015 & Predator pinball hasn't been made.
-Communication from Skit-B is terrible and does nothing but cause people to speculate and come up with their own conclusions based on the information available.
No one is to blame here except Skit-B. They're the one with the company making a licensed product. If it's f*cked, it's no one's fault but theirs. As a paying customer, aim your anger their way.

Excellent post!!! Mature and objective! A benefit to all readers who are able to take the emotion and the subjectivity out of cyberspace forum reading!!!

Good Job!!!

#1471 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

I JUST got finished speaking with Kevin. I asked ALL the hard questions. Here is a quick summery:
YES, he is busy.
YES, the license is fine. He is working on getting into a better situation so EVERYTHING can be shown and talked about.
YES, machines are being built as we speak.
YES, jackwads are calling FOX.
YES, there will be a MAJOR announcement within the next 2 weeks with everything you want to know.
Everything is moving forward.

Easy question...real easy actually. It took you what...30 seconds....60 seconds to post that here? Why does Kevin aka, Skitb not do exactly what you just did? 60 seconds? How long was your phone call with him? 60 seconds? Perhaps more? Just saying....

#1548 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Never lost anything.

Well if you know that conclusively, it sure is not fair to the other 249 purchasers to not know it as well. I have noticed there are a few people running around with privy information. It is bad enough that this forum was used to solicit these orders and then abandoned afterward. Matters worse are some people are on the, "Inner Circle" and know details that others do not.

Personally I wish the silly thing gets built. It bodes well for pinball in general and Michigan for having a boutique builder. It is a shame though that all this drama could have been prevented by just using this forum in the same manner as it was used when the funds were lobbied for here years ago

#1639 4 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

I decided to support Skit B because of the Predator prototype, my own optimism and because of Kevin's apparent sincerity and love of pinball. The sound, artwork and Kevin's description of what kinds of rules and shots make a "great" game leads me to think it will be a game I like, even though the playfield layout is simple (similar to T2).
Making a one-off and making 250 machines are two very different things. I fully expected he would have tons to learn and that there was no way he would be anywhere close to his original time estimates.
It is still my belief that Kevin is honestly doing his best to complete this project. I also figure that he is making very little if anything for all of his time and effort. I suspect that keeping his integrity and making a bunch of pinheads happy is what's driving him to complete the project.
If that is the case, can you imagine what it must be like to read Pinside and see all the things people are accusing you of?
He stated in one of his updates that for the sake of his own mental health he no longer reads Pinside. I kind of hope he doesn't because if I were in his shoes, it would be difficult to not let it affect me or get caught up in all the drama.
People say it only takes a few minutes to post a response but how long does it take to follow all of the posts? Seems like some people are monitoring pinside 12+ hours a day. For certain personality types (myself included) it can be very hard to disengage once you get involved.
There just isn't enough time for that when there are machines to get out!

I think what is disappointing to many folks (at least to me) is this is the place that the game was promoted the most and to solicit funding. If returning to the place that, "Seeded" your first project creates a hazard to your personal health then I question if said person is in a position anyway to complete the project. Also, I do not think anybody is demanding/expecting Kevin to read each and every post here. True that would be time consuming. I myself do not even read all posts in a thread. However, surely he could post an excerpt from the Fox License....a photo of a near completed pin...a personal paragraph to the 250 purchasers and the pinside community??? Once in awhile??? Again the place that you utilized to sell these pins??? Uh huh...makes many wonder why

#1640 4 years ago

<<<Because it's a discussion forum that's open for discussion whether you agree with the view or not? It'd be a lame ass forum if no one ever posted thoughts or feelings, because really, they're not many facts to go around. >>>
----------Posted by MattRasmussen

I agree with this 100%. It is a public forum. Whether you bought one or not you should be able to express a concern or opinion without being attacked and called a troll. There are some serious issues at hand here. Not just the communication black hole and not just the timeline being shattered...also not just the question of the license. It has been mentioned earlier and still remains valid. What happens post ownership and a technical issue arises? Will the inner circle of Kevins friends be the only owners who get treated fine and the rest ignored? Will your emails go unanswered as you stare at a non working $5k pinball machine in the corner of the room? Will some "elite" inner circle friends get code updates and you do not?

A very valid concern is post ownership. To predict such will exist or not exist, one must ponder known information and attempt to forecast a reasonable outlook down the road. Reading this and every Predator thread...reading the near empty Skit B website....listening to a phone ring and ring and ring unanswered....what would your, "reasonable outlook" be for post ownership support??? Throw in the fact that a percentage of Skitb resources have been devoted to EOD during the attempt to push Predator pins forward. With All Predator Pinball machines out the door, how much of SkitB resources be devoted to EOD and possibly another future pin? 85%?....90%?....100%?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#1644 4 years ago

Actually Whysnow you are incorrect. Kevin personally told my wife, best friend and I that 75% of the orders (back then, not sure about now), came from Pinside. This was at the Mich Expo. Kevins mother was also there and informed me of a couple tidbits. However, we gave our word we would not repeat. They were all positive comments btw so not to be perceived as mud slinging.

#1854 4 years ago

Well here we go again. Another person who claims to have all these "Facts" and yet again will not "Share" them with us, the pinball community. I closed to stupid podcast window at 3 minutes...right at the point he said he is not going to share everything he knows.

WTF! Same crud from even more people. Nobody wants to just states facts. Kevin is more guilty than anyone. It is all the people claiming "to know things" that keep creating and fueling all this drama. It is total BS! Grow the hell up already!

#1856 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

The podcasts are great. I'm totally addicted now. I also appreciated his non removed assessment as well as thoughts on all of our passion.
Much to to learn from him. The cheerleaders can ease up on those trying to help and the negatives could be nicer in trying to share what they see from a removed perspective with less of an attack theme.

It's BS. Yet another person to tease everyone and create drama. I am so tired of people saying they know more about this skit issue...they have facts...then they say they cannot share them or won't. When will this crap stop already? It is what creates all the drama and intensifies it further. If you friggin no something and do not intend to share it, then just SHUP UP! Do not say a word at all about it.

Jeesh this crap is getting old already!

#1859 4 years ago
Quoted from playernumber4:

When he introduced his roughed in prototype at the Michigan Expo nearly 3 years ago I asked him specifically if he had and problems with the licensing and if it was expensive. He said "it was no problem at all" and added that he already had the rights and it cost him $150. That was when I made up my mind to never get involved with this project at any price. I walked away muttering to myself "no way does he have the rights".

I bailed when he pulled that secret room crap. It was in one of his videos. Remember those? He walked around the shop and showed his computer...showed Arron...then showed the Proc processor on the table....then he kept saying "over there is the secret room. Only Arron, my mom and me get to see in there". I was thinking" wtf, who in the hell does crap like that? You are trying to get orders by faking it...I truly believe that secret room had nothing but a broom and dust pan in it...oh yeah...maybe some spiders too.

#1860 4 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

The ONLY person that can control this is Kevin. Otherwise, in the absence of official information from Kevin, the grapevine will thrive.

That podcast dude says right at the 3 minute mark, "I have additional facts and information but I decided not to share it in this podcast".


#1903 4 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

To be fair, he also explained why he wouldn't share it -- some was "second hand rumor" that he wasn't comfortable sharing, some "first hand" but told to him in confidence. Seems like a reasonable decision for a journalist to make.
That said, under those circumstances maybe you're right that it's better not to mention the "secret knowledge" at all, instead of referring to it but refusing to discuss it directly.

My point remains the same friend. If you know something and have no intention of sharing it....do not say a word!!!! Keep your mouth shut. Why? Because it just adds to and creates further drama. If everyone practiced this common courtesy, we would all be better off! For what possible reason can there be to say," I know something you do not...I am not telling...I know something you do not...I am not telling"..
It is BS!

#1904 4 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Nate doesn't have a fiduciary duty to you. He's just commenting from the sidelines, just with a microphone, so his voice is "louder".
Kevin holds your deposit money, so you are an unsecured creditor of Skit-B. Kevin has a fiduciary duty to you as a creditor.

Why? Why friend? To gain what? If you have something and have ZERO intention of sharing it, why not keep your mouth shut? Why taunt like that just so now all the listeners have to speculate...guess...ponder what the secret facts are? It is BS IMO! I do not play that game. I wish others did not either. Life would have less drama in it!

#1905 4 years ago
Quoted from RCA1:

I thought he did a good job of explaining why he chose not to share some information which has not been independently confirmed. I felt he was trying to be fair and did a pretty good job of doing that.

He did a good job of bragging that he has facts and information that we are not privy to. He did a great job of rubbing that in and I have no idea why? Perhaps to show off? Make it sound like he has a grasp on more "behind the scenes stuff" than us and further causing the audience to be attracted to him? TO make the audience "crave" more? Come back time and time again? Sounds just like what Skit B did on this forum? They both should not play these games. Just say the facts and all the BS would stop. I promise. If everyone just stated facts or kept their mouth shut if they do not plan on sharing...I promise, the drama would be gone! ***POOF***

#2005 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

How can you go on and on lecturing everyone when you didn't even listen to more than 3 min. It shouldn't surprise me but it does.
It was just a preface / qualification of what he was about to say. That you were free to take his actual opinions (which you skipped) as more informed than just making shit up out of his ass.

It is pretty simple. Why would I listen to the rest? When you say you have facts and information but decided to not share you are doing the exact same thing as Kevin. Those that are frustrated with Kevin should also be frustrated with the podcast guy. Same routine. Also, it is a very poor act of journalism standards period! You do not see CNN or CNBC doing that crap lol. If this podcast dude wants to be a journalist then he should play by the rules. The only time journalism does stuff like that is say....well...maybe the ISIS issue and the beheading videos. That type of graphic violence is held back because of the horrible video and that children might see it. That is the only time. Professional journalists do not do what he did, period. Name one besides him? Can't? He is trying to be a professional right? I wish him well but he needs to do it correctly.


#2342 4 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

Remove all references to preditor. Change the dots. Possibly change playfield art. Same shot layout, another theme.

What about the sounds and music? Seems like that would be pretty important. Maybe a decent sized discount (partial refund) would be in order for the theme changing? I'm out so that is up the 250. Seems reasonable to ask for it though.

#2384 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

You keep alluding to the fact that you have inside info here- why not share it? Or.... not say anything at all?
Why keep teasing these guys with your access when they cant get responses for months (THEY being paying customers).
This image got 2 "unsafe" tags and has ben hidden automatically, per your settings. un-hidefunny-gif-strip-tease-prank.gif 2

Teasing just adds drama and the whole circle just repeats. Anyone that does this should be put on permanent ignore. Why play 3rd grade games? "I know something you don't know...lalalala I know something you don't know...lalala" Very immature. Kevin has been doing for years. The podcast dude is doing it too. If someone knows something and they have no intention of distributing it, just shut up and do not say anything. Just like you commented on! There should be a pinside rule about it, it is like harassment in my opinion!

#2757 4 years ago

If people would just tell the truth. Kevin, people on this forum, myself....just tell the truth as you walk through life. Don't play games like hoarding information/lying/truth stretching/pausing communication...walk through life talking/writing honest facts! No more deception and all the drama that goes along with it...just facts whether they are good or bad...just facts!

Life would be so much better. Of course not all can do this. Many here (reading now) would "Crave" the drama....we know who they are...lol...we all know. If only those here and the other ones throughout the world could come on board and do it? Ahhhh what a great place it would be!

Good luck to the 250 and I hope you get a pin and in a reasonable amount of time. This ordeal reminds me of a bad stock. There is a point where if you "fall in love" with it, no matter how many red flags go off, you just end up holding and praying and hoping for something good to happen. Sometimes it does. Others times it does not. I hope this is not a time that it "does not"!

#2818 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Please stay the F*CK out of it. You are not a pre-owner and you have absolutely no business trying to stick yourself into a matter at this level that does not pertain to you and has none of your skin in the game.
I know you like to be in the middle of everything, but this is one area where you have absolutely no business inserting yourself and it is preposterous for you to even suggest it. You do not and will never speak on my behalf.
There are plenty of trusted, well spoken, and detail orientated people actually in on the project (a few mods on pinside are still in the last I heard). Leave it to them if they want to attempt any sort of legal action or organized plan that THEY see fit.
I personally will only accept the game being built. If at some point Kevin says that is no longer possible then I will cross that bridge at that time. Until this time, I would prefer if loud spoken art critics stuck to critiquing art and leave any sort of mob organization to those ACTUALLY in on the project.

Actually it has been proven time and time again that the best person to represent is one without a vested interest. This has been proven in almost every area of life. Neighbor disputes, civil lawsuits, etc. The reasoning is that person is most likely to be 100% objective. Making decisions while taking all the emotion and anger out of it. All would benefit better with representation that has not anger or emotion. Again, this has been proven over and over again in at least 50 studies. I can cite if required.

#3189 4 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

Are there any salaries being drawn from the Skit-B organization?

I do not know. You know what would be nice though? If Kevin took 15 minutes and made up an excel spreadsheet indicating what is left and what is expected to be disbursed. Then everyone could make a reasonable forecast of whether the project has enough funding to go the distance or if you think he may need to ask for an additional $500 or $1,000. I think it would help man owners sleep better at night and earn a lot of trust back from the community, especially here at Pinside.

#3191 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Lets be more serious. What really are the expeditures formt he account?
So far we have seen parts for 10 games post deposits being sent.
If we take a random guess that those parts total 5k per game (over shooting on this one) that means $50,000 spent out of 750k on actual parts. That hypothetically leaves 700k in the bank.
If Kevin decided to call it quits he could refund 93% of the funds (minus paypal cut?) to each person with little issue.
Do people really think he has been blowing large sums of money in mysterious ways?
Many people have met him and think he is an over confident but all around good guy that is in over his head. If this is the case, then unlikely he has blown through much more than the parts for 10 games.
Do people think a bunch of cash is mysteriously gone?

I don't (think money is mysteriously gone). He seemed like an honest fellow to me on multiple occasions. His mother too. Your post sounds reasonable except maybe he had to spend money on legal (lawyers) and perhaps a building lease up front payment? I thought he mentioned that to me years ago about getting a building secured. Anyway, I do not think he conducted shady things. I just really...really...really hope he kept a decent ledger. Most people are reasonable but you always get those picky ones that will demand to know where it all went down to the very last penny! It will be hard to please those types of people and they will make accusations, probably, if they cannot be shown every last penny dispensed.

#3192 4 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

You claimed in your post two weeks ago you had some inside info that would explain everything. I questioned you specifically about the license and you said something like there's a good reason for his actions. In light of zero big news Kevin promised you and you conveyed to us, do you know any secrets that lead you to believe all the theories here are wrong? Because given all the facts we know I personally find it hard to believe that there's a very good reason for the way things went down.

I remember that too. I spoke out as well. Nobody should do that IMO. Not hi, not the podcast person (Nate) not me...nobody. It just adds drama and also is like taking a trip back to 3rd grade and teasing that you know something but will not share it. WTF? If you know something and have not intention of sharing, then what purpose is there to flaunt it? Uh huh...nothing. Just trying to be a BigShot and add drama. Jeesh. I belong to 10 yahoo stock forums, a golf cart, corvette, mustang, Belize, Tampa and at least 4-5 more I cannot remember and I have never seen anything like I do here It's like people always want to out do each other and "One up" one another. Like it is always a competition Sad.

Peace to all...if that is possible (I hope).

#3196 4 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

Does anyone else remember the hell JJP went through getting their "electronic" machine certified? (I forget the certification names a company needs?) .

Are you talking about UL and CE? I am assuming he needs to get CE for pins leaving the country. I thought UL was voluntary though (wise to get it though in case someone's house burns down and they blame it on your device).

#4742 4 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

...instead, i find myself wondering how we could have something like fund-raisers set up at each of the pin events over the next 12-18 months and see if some funds could be collected and distributed to the folks that don't get some/all of their money back. Texas Pin Fest is next weekend. That's probably too soon to organize/plan something, but would be nice if something happened. If there was like 10 events over the next year-and-a-half, and maybe someone could donate a pin or 2 to a special auction at each event. maybe each event could raise like $5k to $8k at the auction and then put those funds into a holding-pattern somewhere. Multiply that against like 10 events and folks could have $50k-80k to redistribute to the 200ish customers that may end up loosing money. Maybe bulk print some shirts and sell them, and donate profits to the fund as well? Maybe charge a door cover to one of the nearby pubs and put those proceeds into the fund. I dunno, probably a logistical nightmare... but, I just wish something good could come from the community to help out. But, at moment we don't know how much may not available for refund, so maybe fund raisers could fill the gap perfectly, or be a stretch ...just noodling...

So you want other pinball players to pay for your loss? If you bought a stock and it went to zero, do you want other investors to pay for your loss? Tis is not like a family lost their house in a fire and need charity to provide a shelter and food for small children. This is not like a 10 year old boy/girl having a brain tumor and needing funds to go to Disney World. This is people (some silly for closing their eyes at all the red flags) that bought an object from a crooked vendor. You learn from your mistakes. Try not to do the same thing again in the future. Asking for others to pay for your mistake is way out of line imo.

#4761 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

here we go pointing fingers again. I don't think it's this at all. Not having business sense or not knowing what you're doing, doesn't automatically make you a con artist. I really don't think he was out to fraud people. If all the money is gone and nothing was made, then it could be a scam or really poor business decisions.

Soliciting funds from Pinside, reaching your "Full" mark and never returning. Then purging all reference of Predator from your web site and emails. Then never securing the manufacturing building you broadcasted to the world you were doing any day now (remember had that executed there would now be a physical address, somewhere you could nock on the door and expose this whole lie).

Well...yes those things make you a con. truth hurts I understand, still a con.

#4819 4 years ago

I think what he is saying is it is like stock because this situation is similar that you cannot touchy feely. Like a start up company, there is no product out yet, no manufacturing facility to go drive by and look at. Jeesh maybe it is worse. Many star-ups at least have a front office with a hot chick you can walk into and grab a cup of coffee. This basement gig Kevin had going did not have that Anyway, people got screwed and yes it is different and there are Consumer Protection laws for this type of thing and stock/equities do not have that. Like a stock though there is a point when red flags sometimes go up and if you are not acknowledging them then you watch your investment go down...sometimes down the drain and BK. It is like a stock in that regard. You have to be objective and take the emotion out of it in order to avoid the disaster like this. I really feel bad many were crushed (just like a bad stock) and had game rooms pretty much already reserving a spot for this pin. Some had all the accents too! There seems to be zero chance this pin gets built. I hope all recover funds. I have never ripped off an investor in my career. I hope Kevin does the same thing!

#4825 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Really, how is this different? Company wants to make a product. Numbers arn't working on paper. Budgeting coordinator crunches some numbers to make it work. They make a prototype. Show it to investors. Investors invest. Production starts. Money gets used. Half way through they are out of money and can no longer make the product. How is this different. In this case instead of lying about manufacturing costs, he's lying about licensing issues. Which would have put him way over budget i'm sure. It's pretty much the same damn thing in a nutshell.
Anyone have that article someone posted recently on that camera instagram company that showed you how to lose 500k in a kickstarter company?

You are correct and this has been proven many times. Examples are the Segway...the De Lorean and even the Tesla. All convinced others they had enough on paper. Ultimately they did not. They had to solicit new and increased funding to finish. It is likely that is what Kevin requires as well. Will people here invest more or will new investors "Chip in" to get this done??? That is the ultimate question!

#4828 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Did you even read my example? it's the same damn thing. In my example. the project coordinator fudges the numbers to make production work. (basically lying about the cost of production to investors) . I've seen it before. I've seen companies fail because of this exact same thing. They think they can figure it out or find another way down the road, and it ends up killing them in the end.

I do not understand why people thumbs you down. You are correct in what you are saying. Back before the desktop computer really phase took off (22 years ago) there were 3 companies and only 3 that wanted to make sound cards. All almost went bust before the craze finally took off. All needed more funding because on paper they were wrong. All are now out of business decades later but did make their product for awhile and had profits. Who were they?

Pro Audio Spectrum
ESST Technologies

#4842 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

because i'm sure I got their panties in a wad earlier, and now they are just on a thumbs down rampage without really thinking about or reading what i'm saying.

Yes. This is a common problem with forums. For some reason I think Pinside Predator forum is the worse. Now notice I did not say, "Pinside" only. I mean this stupid Predator forum has been tough for two years on people. There are always two sides to a conversation and many here simply did not want the opposing side of the argument to ever post here. If they could have had a magic button to push and make all the naysayers disappear, I am sure they would have mashed it over and over. Sad indeed. I tend to believe all can get along in a forum. Even if you do not agree, you should welcome the others point of view. I do not mean you can insult or cuss at others, I simply mean express your opinion without being told, "Get out" or "your a troll". Too many people get their, "panties in a wad" like you said. It seems to always be worse in this Predator thread too

#4855 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I got the first email a couple weeks ago or something, no time to look up the date, about to take my kids to school. Forget a lawsuit, I wasn't worried about that. But I definitely wasn't comfortable just pasting some wholesale anonymous claim into the thread. I thought it was legit, but I didn't actually know, and I'd feel like a giant asshole if I panicked everyone into a run on the bank and it turns out to have been a prank or someone was just misinformed.

I am not convinced it would have mattered. Nobody wants to see anybody lose money but if you posted it here it probably would have triggered more subjective arguing instead of objective decision making or discussion. For example I offer the days after all the web site information regarding Predator vanished. Now one would think a decent discussion could take place when that happened. Did it? Back read and we all know it did not. That had to be the biggest red flag in the world yet it could not be discussed in a civil manner. People were insulted, called trolls...called jealous they were on on the list or did not have the money to buy one. It was awful. Day after day the sayers said, "Kevin is just doing the web site over. Kevin needs to focus his time on the actual machine and not the web site or youtube. Kevin sold all 250 so why should he need to advertise it on his web site" Yep, those were the good ole days I hope we all can learn a valuable lesson on how to co-exist in a forum looking forward. No matter what side your viewpoint is on!!!!!

#4935 4 years ago
Quoted from dantebean:

Once this exploded I said some of you guys would play the "I told you so" or "this is why I am smart and stayed out of this pre-order" game. Lost a lot of respect for some of you guys with no stock in this matter. How dare you try teaching people how to handle losing their money. If you're not in this then just say "good luck" and move on. No need to have a big back and forth with people fighting to get their money back.
For those of you posting on how to contact Paypal and lawyers, thank you. We should be helping and not playing blame game.

Let us not forget something though. Many of those folks who say, "I told you so" are the same ones that had their heads handed to them on a silver platter in days gone past. They were insulted, ridiculed...made to feel like they had no voice in a public forum. It is not fair to make fun of people today....it was also not fair to make fun of people back then!!!!!!

#4943 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

Ok, now I have to jump in. This Mr X group were seriously f'ing with Hilton based on the emails he was getting and what they were saying to him. There was a strong gloating element in the content which impeded "credibility" of the authors. These "hero's" were acting like asshats to Hilton. Disagree with Hilton's passionate and blind support of Kevin - that's fine, I did to. But Mr X were trying to create a media event and helped FOX first - then brought it to the community. Think long and hard about it.
(And you TX people who keep thumbs downing Hilton when he hits enter on any post - let's keep tabs. Hmm Mr X affiliation? You guys are fixated on Hilton. It's as sick as his blind trust in Kevin. Sorry H.)

Hilton does not need to be treated that way true. But----Hilton has his own issues too. He creates drama where there is none to be. Fact. Check the Shadow thread. A poster asked for responses to what everyone thought it was worth. Many replied...including Hilton. Sooooooo. Hilton goes around singling out any post that signaled a higher value than what he posted. Mine included. In fact his snotty attitude to me was, "Well, why don't you go buy it then if you think it is worth that much"

Again he creates drama where there is none! I hope he and everyone else get there money back. I hope that Pinside threads allow everyone to post fairly. I hope everyone that posts does it in a manner with respect and not to create drama or be snotty. I can only hope

#4973 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I'm not sure if any of you guys have ever taken someone to court who owes you money.
You win the case, the judge orders the defendant to pay you $3000, the defendant ignores the order and never pays you.
The person does not go to jail because they never paid you....there is no debtors prison.
Now if a criminal case is brought against Kevin, then there could be jail time involved, but then Kevin will certainly spend any money he has left on the retainer for a federal criminal attorney.

Friend...there is another possibility and it stinks. You receive a judgment for "x" amount of dollars and the defendant claims personal BK afterwards. I had this happen to me for $15k 30 years ago

#5034 4 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

No, nothing.
I might text Kevin to verify, but doubtful he would reply or if I would believe him anyway...

What if it is a prank? Some sicko toying with people who are in a difficult position? I hope not but have heard of stuff like this

#5234 4 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

A prank how? Someone hacked his email account? If that's even remotely a possibility, I really don't care. Kevin just needs to stick to his word this ONE TIME, and that's it.
If you are insinuating that Playboy is trolling, c'mon man.

Quoted from Nibbles:

A prank how? Someone hacked his email account? If that's even remotely a possibility, I really don't care. Kevin just needs to stick to his word this ONE TIME, and that's it.
If you are insinuating that Playboy is trolling, c'mon man.

Are you trying to create drama or what? Insinuate what? Trolling? Give me a break. I was posting a thought that I simply hope some sicko was not playing a prank...like using an email address with 1 digit off or different. I have seen it before.

#5246 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

But was that simply a broken clock is right twice a day?
We should be sure to differentiate between something someone KNEW vs what they were SPECULATING and happened to be right.
People had all kinds of theories and concerns... and no matter how right they might have been, if they started without references or research.. then they are still simply speculating.
Obviously some people were trying to do their dilligence before spewing half information or onesided stories. Kudos to that. The amount of people that are advocating you should be sharing unvetted information 'to save the buyers' is insane.
Floods of inaccurate information is even more damaging than the alternative.

4 red flags were ignored period. All 4 red flags were brought up here and never did a civil conversation result...never. People fell in love with the pin and the concept. I can see why, it was appealing. I was even in until 18 months ago. Red flags are red flags.

1) Was here almost every day when it was funding time. After piggy bank was full, bye bye.
2) ALL Predator information, videos and references removed from web site, you tube and emails.
3) Delay after delay. Touting a second pin while delaying and stealth silence for 1st pin.
4) Promised manufacturing building never executed. 2 years in the making to lease, then did not.

Red flags. Hopefully if this ever happens again...people can discuss it in a civil manner.

#5257 4 years ago
Quoted from pinmanguy:

Just out of curiosity does anyone here work on manufacturing licensed products and do you ask to see 100% proof before working on something every time?

Yes it is common sense to request to see the license. What normally happens is a copy is made. Then sensitive information like price is struck through with a thick black marker. You then make a copy of the copy so no bleed through can be detected. Many times this copy is just given away for you to keep as you manufacture others I. P.

Oh yeah, you always check the date and the duration to make sure you are not potentially outside of them. In other words whatever contract you enter into make sure it is not outside the terms of the I.P. contract.

#5274 4 years ago
Quoted from Btrader:

Let's be clear, when a company raises funds from investors for business purposes they have a well vetted prospectus (public offering document), in this document they outline all the risks of their business, plan of action, managers backgrounds, and all material information - so that investors can make INFORMED decisions. Depending on the type of offering, it is registered with the SEC and various states (in the USA, I know laws vary internationally).
Taking a deposit on a pinball machine under FALSE pretenses is not analogous to an investment of risk capital after being properly disclosed.
To compare TESLA to SKIT-B is beyond ludicrous.

Please stop. If you read my post you see that the comparison of Tesla was only to show that a company can solicit funds for a project and then find out it is not enough to actually manufacture. This happened with Tesla. The point of my post and what Neo was saying is that it is possible that Skit b would be in the same situation. The end of my post said that it would not surprise me if people end up having one more decision to make (like Tesla) and that is whether to give more money to Kevin to finish this thing (so he can pay Fox if they are willing to license).

That is exactly what I said so please do not twist it up and call it ludicrous!

#5300 4 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

If you ask the judge in small claims court how to collect money in a judgement, I have heard he will say something like "hmmmm..somebody wrote a book on that once."

Small claims court sure is a bummer sometimes. I won $15k 25 years ago. 3 weeks after I won the person filed BK. It seems that most of the people that end up as defendants in small claims are the type of people with few assets and it is pretty much routine that they file bk if they lose any significant amount.

Someone said they received an email from Kevin promising full refunds. That would be cool. Then he can regroup and come out fighting again on something else in life. Everyone wins in that scenario Some else mentioned he would take a refund minus the $250 initial deposit...that is pretty cool too. Perhaps Kevin would be quicker with refunds if he thought some would accept slightly less? Some of you could group up and discuss it and then propose it to him. It seems he is backed into a corner pretty tight right now. I know what he did was wrong about the license but if he had a glimmer of hope, of getting this issue closed, maybe he would process things faster? Just a thought.

#5346 4 years ago
Quoted from Btrader:

Was this marketed as an investment opportunity (like VCs and shareholders in TSLA)? Was there a discussion of equity in the new venture? or was it simply just a clear cut offer to sell a product that the vendor knowingly did not have the rights to sell. Huge difference here, they are not the same thing.
Sometimes people go to the grocery store and realize they don't have enough cash... They put the items back on the shelf. They don't stand in line and eat the food. This is a much better analogy than yours.

Whatever. It is not worth anymore of my time with you. You twisted my post up by posting an excerpt and it is totally unprofessional. Next time put my entire post up and if you can reference the other parties post I was commenting to. My post is totally valid and your in line for food sentence makes no sense at all. Have a good life.

#5425 4 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

pubaw-1.png (Click image to enlarge)
Thanks for the advice
But, i didn't loose money on the Predator pin. i wanted one, but it sold out before i could get on the list.
I was not suggesting people chip in to help me get my money back.
I was suggesting ideas to try and help others who could end up getting financially screwed in this situation.
...and was willing to contribute my own time and stuff if possible to help them.
No good deed goes unpunished
ps. your own words seem to help with this.

I have no idea what the point of your post is. It all started with you trying to suggest to others to pay for their potential loss. Way out of line. Now posting this is just trying to argue like others here. You are looking for drama and freebies for others. Way to help out.

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