Facebook says he works at a body shop now

Whew. Thought the sky was actually about to land on us this time.

Because a lot of us have been on board for more than 3 years and not just showed up in the past few months. A lot of us still have faith in the project and realize that people aren't perfect. A lot of us remember when this was just a one-off machine, and interest inspired the manufacturers to take an enormous gamble and try to become a pinball company when there was only one left. A lot of us remember when SkitB wasn't good with communication before they had ever gotten a dime from anybody. A lot of us genuinely want to see this company succeed, and can understand why they would choose not to bend to every whim of people who repeat the same shit over and over like they had a new thought every time. A lot of us can empathize with the fact that not everything is as easy as Monday-morning quarterbacks think they are. A lot of us are ready to just play some goddamn pinball.

Sooo, 23 hours before dresses?

So I guess there goes that.

Or maybe the plastics, ya know, on top the game.

Good to see a video again. Also nice to see some people hit the left ramp with the right flipper, although it doesn't seem to happen much.

Only issue I see with the gameplay is the left to right loop emptying at the left flipper. Ah well, way too late to fix that angle now.

This shit makes Cambodia look like Kansas

I feel like at least 50% of the folks here (this thread) are pathetic, but this is a pretty good point man.

But, this reply though, I'm assuming you're joking as I know you and Kevin go back at least 2 years with the personal communication. Being in on this for more than three years, I kind of feel like a piece of shit with the fact that you're privy to this info and we're not. I don't feel like Kevin started off with idea of using Pinside as a platform, but this is where I first saw the one-off, and the interest here prompted him and his former partner to launch the 250. A lot of you say he's pandering to Pinside, but it was fucking pinside that started this run to begin with.

Regardless, to one day say you're only going to give updates to people on a list and then not take anyone off of that list that canceled is just...sloppy man. I remember a certain individual years ago saying that he never thought this was going to work and shouting from a mountain how we were fools, then putting a preorder down and then shouting the greatness from the same mountain about the greatness that was to come, and then a year later canceling and shouting from that same fucking mountain almost louder than anybody about how we were all fools again, is just pinside in its most purest form. Now, this is the guy giving info to everyone else!

But, to be honest, I can't really argue anymore. I understand how money works, especially in this game, and especially with a startup company. --Hi bank, I need a loan to become a pinball manufacturer.-- You need the capital up front to make the product. Then, once you have the capital to make the product, you need to deliver. You have to expect that if things don't go according to plan, people are going to pull their money out, especially in this fickle community. This isn't Kickstarter. We were all wondering how this would work without a bigger down payment of $250, but we believed. OK, half down now, so they must be making the game, right? Apparently not. But in two weeks they're going to have an announcement that's gonna knock my socks off? I'm tired a this shit man.

This was not only my first NIB, but my first pin ever. Turned down a lot of good deals because I have room for 1 so I've been sitting still all the while. So, not only did the two biggest backers besides myself drop out in spfxted and Navajas, who fell off the face of the Predator map (which I guess is noble considering the dropouts who stay around to talk shit), but what am I to think?

I don't have disposable income like the lot of you, which I'm sure you'll argue. The only reason I haven't asked for a refund in the past three months is because I don't want to fuck it up for everybody else like the Great fucking Depression, but at this point, if this isn't groundbreaking in two weeks, I'm done.

/rant

If that's the case, I apologize. I thought I remembered you talking to him on the phone on more than one occasion. The fact that you're not buddy buddy with him, like I thought, makes me feel less positive about this thing in two weeks though.

Man, if I could turn the clock back two years.

"In our attempts to gather showable documents to prove this wrong, we learned that our licensing deal really wasn't what we thought it was. Thankfully, with the understanding folks who control said IP and the help of a lifelong family friend, these hurdles are quickly being overcome."

So the license is still not finalized. All this stuff about getting another manufacturer is irrelevant to me. We, on the waitlist, have had to take more than one leap-of-faith on this project. I'd say more around 5. Now I need to wait around again for who knows how long to see if this gets pushed through? And what if Arnold won't sign off? Sure, he's trying to create his image as a movie star again, but what if he doesn't sign off? No Dutch graphics or callouts? Or what if they can't get the rights to the music? That's half the pin! I think all of us got on this project for the theme, not for the company, so a re-theme, or anything from the movie that's missing, to me is not even close to feasible.

I hate to join the dark side of the forum, but this doesn't sit well at all.

I'm with you man. Should have went with Stern. This has kind of ruined pinball for me. And my favorite movie has been sullied forever.

"I didn't have the agreement with paypal that I thought I did..."

What happens if he files for bankruptcy?

For real. All this bullshit on here about people not posting emails, and nobody's posted these "secret" emails yet.

More than 2 years ago in the original thread. If all he had was a piece of paper explaining fair use policy, and never once thought it wouldn't apply to commercial purposes. Seriously?

I'm so f***in pissed right now.

I'm guessing the vendors have been paid. Noticed Back-Alley Matt hasn't been around lately. That's also why I figure there isn't enough left for half of us, let alone all of us.

If my memory serves me right (which I'm pretty sure it does), it was only ever asked once more in that thread, and the direct response was just as vague. He talked about EVERYTHING but the license. And we all ate it up because we were pumped, but I think the general common sense was that the license is the most important part of making a licensed pinball game and who in their right mind would prepare for 3 years of work without a license? In fact, I think the majority here believed that they had a license that lapsed, right up until they admitted they didn't, because HOW DO YOU EXPECT TO MAKE A LICENSED PINBALL GAME WITHOUT A LICENSE? Shit man.

To be fair, I think Kevin's disappearance was due to the art. Predator threads were the zen-peaceful experience until the art was unveiled. Kevin wanted to go "comic book cartoony" (did he really or did he just want to get away with only paying a guy to draw things once (( which was just a blatant ripoff of some Instagram art)), and the majority of pinsiders were looking for something darker, as was I. Over the next few months, every single guy in the thread had an opinion on the art direction, most contrasting his "dream." That's pretty much when he stopped coming around.

Ok, I don't know if it's instagram, was just saying. Someone a while ago found a picture that had an identical Arnold, and somebody actually posted that picture a few pages back. I'll see if I can find it.

I defense of the guy who drew the art, he had some awesomly dark pieces on his facebook. We were all wondering why the art wasn't more in that direction.

Yes, that is the picture I was looking for. Granted, that those drawing are just stills from the movie. I'm going to have to defend the artist on this one though. If he had copied that picture, he wouldn't have fucked up the hand/gun angle so bad that it had to be covered by a leaf.

p21_Predator_Fan_Art-s2316x3000-118222.jpg

And I just want to add, I'm sorry Skit-B. I have been one of your biggest supporters for almost the whole ride. I stuck with you through the fight with the now-wife over buying the machine, through the asking for money when I almost just took the money out to buy an X-men. Through people calling bullshit on the license.

This was going to be my first pin. Been waiting patiently for 3 years, and you make me look like a fool. I doubt I could ever convince the wife to let me get a pin in the near to moderate future (we didn't even have room for this one). So the gloves are off now, I guess.

lol. Actually, the fight was over the fact that I had money for a pinball table, but not money for a ring. I made the mistake of arguing over the fact that yes, it was 5 grand, and even though I would never consider selling it, if I HAD to sell it I would get at least 3 back if it was a flop. Never once thought about paying and never getting a machine.

Don't feel bad for me though fellas. With a few exceptions ( like the the guy talking about he was only in because there was 250 and he thought he could make money -_-) there's 249 others like me. I'm a grown ass man and I make my own decisions and I live with them. It's just shitty is all.

This is bullshit. And this community f***ed up. Too many different agendas. I'm just here to play pinball man.

Aurich.

More.

You guys keep saying "removed all videos." I've been here since almost the beginning, and obviously it's more obvious looking at hindsight. Let me enlighten a bit.

There was never any Predator videos on their website aside from that 2 minute demo they did in their basement with the UV lights (The one where I googled Predator pinball, found that, found out they were making more, introduced me to Pinside). But I digress, that is the only video EVER to do with Predator on their website. Then they update that website with the new format, enter Duckhunt, exit Predator vid. We were always asking why Predator wasn't featured on the website, so that was 2 to 2.5 years ago.

Then, they did the Thanksgiving 20 minute video in November 2012 I believe. Some time in late 2013, that video and the two older 5 minute ones disappeared. Now one would think that this is when the legal trouble happened, but we were told in April would be the big video. When asked why he pulled the video, he said something to the effect of it didn't represent what the final product would be and they didn't want potential buyers to be confused, which didn't make sense since the waitlist was 100 strong. When we asked if we, the owners, could get them in download format to get pumped, he said maybe but we never did.

April 2013 came and went. We didn't get shit for a long time after that except for shitty cellphone shot video. Then, February 2014, we get the mission complete video. Ok things are looking good. Then July we get the Player's guide. Awesoooome!! Then by August, those were removed. There's been the silence ever since.

So, all I wanted to point out to a lot of you is that we may look like idiots, but Predator was NEVER on the website, which has always been weird as hell but hey! they're taking them to shows right? So it has to be legit. AND before these last two videos got deleted, there was a purge of the first round of videos, so I thought this was just standard Skit-B procedure.

I apologize. Looking back, the 20 minute vid was on the website. I guess it got scrubbed on the duck hunt update.

I can't link to comments because the topic was closed, but September 2013 is when the website was updated with no Pred info. So, if that was the reason that the website was scrubbed, it's been a sham for a year and half.

The best I could do last night was a post on Sep 9 from skit-b announcing a change to the website, and then a post from 9-21 mentioning the fact that there was no predator on the new website.

WhysNow, Stern actually delivers when they take your money. JJP had proven themselves too. We've seen that neither Skit-B and Dutch pinball have proven themselves. I would ask that Aliens owners request proof.

And in the future, don't preorder from unproven people without proof.

No reason was acknowledged for Klump leaving. I saw on Facebook that he works for a body shop. Skit-b's pinside bio says they grew up operating arcades. He was listed on the site as the guy who was going to build the cabinets. I always assumed he left because the project got too big and wasn't just for fun anymore. Basically, I think he realized he was in over his head and got out.

And YK. I don't know about years man. I only started hearing the license rumors the past couple months.

THANKS FOR THE TIP TODAY!

This would kill me if anothe manufacturer made Predator. Absolutely fucking kill me. Unless I get my money back of course....shit

I just read all the anonymous stuff. Holy shit man. Sociopathic dude. I can't blame them for tipping off Fox. This is bullshit

I just can't get over the fact. He seriously thought once he had them built and shipped, this could never go back retroactively on them? Like someone from Fox wouldn't see one at a bar, see skit-b plastered on the side, done a quick google search that led him to Pinside, where some company sold Predator and is now making other games, and not sue the shit out of them!?

Geez

Did I read that right. The C&D came before the initial $250??? That long ago???? WHAT THE F! This could've been solved from the beginning?? I was under the impression the C&D was October 2014, not 2013.

The anonymous and pinball news conflict

Believed him I guess.

Only thing I can tell you is when we sent the $250, it was a"gift" as not to incur paypal charges, which 250 gifts will freeze an account because paypals not getting their cut. However, when we sent the big payments, it was a legitimate payment and not a gift.

But why are we talking about this statement? We know everything he said was swindler confidence bullshit

That's what I was saying last night man. Sullied my favorite movie forever. I'll never be able to watch it without remembering I got burned for 5 grand.

Admittedly, I think this works better for him. Imagine he had gotten this all out the door and Fox eventually found out. He gets hit on 250 clear counts of copyright infringement.

This way, he might be able to wriggle his way out of it, not produce anything for us, and not pay us back.

Dayhuff?

Definitely. That and the fame. Read that early quote in the pinballnews article. Something like they became a big deal, and people donated money to get them to shows because they're so awesome. And they never asked for money, we just threw it at him for a piece!

Probably still doesn't think he's doing wrong.

Do they work better than they did at the expos?

Low, face it, I know you're not invested, but we're not getting shit back.

Haha I never even got to play it. Now I can admit its 6 shots compared to an Xmen, and the fact that it seemed like a ball only went up the left ramp 1 out of 10 times, but Unload looked pretty damn cool.

How much more is this gonna cost me?

I read that too. I doubt they'll do it now after this shitstorm.

I was always somewhat partial to the art from Big Game.

image.jpg

Sold for. Well what's the price of the new one?

On second thought, I don't give a shit

Well I realized after a minute that the price he's talking about, is what it was sold for to them.

But, he's telling you JJP and the article mentions Heighway...

Man, aside from these last two days, I've been pretty quiet the last year, but I've read it all. Whysnow is passionate, perhaps blindly passionate, and I can't speak for him on the subject of caring if it was licensed or not, but dude definitely didn't withhold info just to "get his." I don't believe that for a minute.

Dude, I think the motives were definitely personal. I did notice the line of the article that said they got their refunds AND THEN went after the truth. Shitty for the rest of us, for sure, but I can't hold this against them. I can't blame someone for wanting to find out if someone was scamming 250 pinsiders out of 1,000,000. The blame lands on one man alone.

Ideally, how do you think things should have went down? I genuinely want to know and am not here for argument.

Edit: I mean knowing what we know now

Haha I wish I could have seen these last night when I was in investigative mode. All we got was the one from Aurich. Give me tomorrow, I'm pretty sure I can figure out who at least wrote them.

I get you man, and that's how I was feeling a few months ago when a lot of the guys I'm conversing with right now wouldn't let it go. Seems like a lot more here care for the drama then for pinball which is why I completely avoid pinside except for the Pred threads. I admit, I was thinking "just shut the fuck up so I can just get my game I've been waiting 2.5 years for and not get screwed." It's even worse that our whistleblowers made sure their money was safe first.

I don't know man, such mixed emotions. If dudes would have left it alone, we might have got our games, we might not have. It's like that guy that calls the cops for weed. Were we really hurting anybody? But in the end, it's Kevin that deceived us. It's Kevin that took our 3 or 5 grand and gambled on it. Right now, I don't care why he called out, it's the fact that it was possible to get called out to begin with. Hell, I've "known" Kevin longer than my current coworkers. I trusted this guy. Now I'm basically in a powerless situation and am just along for the ride. It's easy to blame the guys that put us here, and believe me I did and kind of still do, but like I said, they couldn't have put us here if it wasn't possible to begin with. And that responsibility lies with Kevin.

Just my opinion.

Of course he was trying to build them! If he was conning us, he would have never given us his real name! The point is that before he started accepting out money, he should have had a license first! The guy ate the pinside fame up. Why did he ever have to "sneak it under the radar?" We were going to give him a million fucking dollars!

I thought it was a great analogy for the anger against the anonymous.

Anybody else get the email this morning?

Paste this email.

Same here. Basically said they'd make notes to his account. I can try my bank or legal action. That's about it.

I'll sell you my spot.

Hmmm. 250 small claims court cases. Bam.

I have a pretty good idea who actually wrote the emails, but what good does it do us now?

I was thinking this too

I just received an email stating all moneys collected will be refunded in a few days

Said this before but it started as a one-off, they shared it on Pinside, buzz generated and it snowballed with no forethought of whether it COULD get done.

A lot of folks are also forgetting that it cost $250 to get in on the waitlist, when JJP and Stern wanted the full amount up front. We got to be involved in the making of the pin for 2 years. Definitely didn't see this coming. Of course there's red flags everywhere looking back.

It looks like the one who wrote the wordpress site is someone other than the one who wrote the emails.

Or it was a collaboration.

Pretty sure at least two people were involved, if not more. One of them being the one who wrote the emails.

Damn, I wish this game got made.

Explain mechanical issues

To answer my question you posted other people's comments on the game? Yes, there were problems at the Expos, but that's what a prototype is. License issue aside, do you think they would have let the game go out with obvious mechanical issues? I mean, that's the reason why the game didn't go out a year and a half ago. Well, I suppose your answer is yes, so I don't agree.

Basically, you're saying you didn't like the layout. Fair enough. I'm simply saying that the theme, sounds, callouts, music and scenes is why I got into the project to begin with, and despite what's happening now, I still long for a Predator pin. Despite a lack of shots, Skit-B had some good ideas.

Sorry I deviated from the bandwagon Bloodsport guy, but Predator would still be my ultimate theme, and looking back on the past week, money issues aside, I'm still just disappointed that Predator is over.

Well, I just called my bank to dispute the charge since I paid with a Visa debit card.

Unfortunately, they told me that the second that they send this information to Kevin's bank, they will reject it as there's only a 60 day limit.

Well, unfortunately, after I get back in town after the weekend, I'm going to have to file. I've been waiting for 2.5 years. I'm done waiting.

http://courts.mi.gov/Self-help/center/casetype/Pages/SmallClaimsSH.aspx

Don't know if it'll do any good, but have to do something.

I think the proof you would need would be that he didn't have the license. All we have right now is the word of anonymous internet people.

The only thing that's not my money that I would like to see is concrete proof that Fox knew nothing about the pin. Although I believe it, I can't prove it. We would either need AG's correspondence from Fox, or I/we'd have to contact Fox ourselves.

However, I think I could get my money back in a legal system based on a "I payed you for something and you didn't deliver," but it would be nice to have a pre-mediated con attempt as a backup plan.

I don't see PBN as having that concrete proof, or not providing it in a way that I can use it as a legal prosecution, so I really don't give a shit about their article. It's just going to be Kevin's side of the story. Even if Kevin's side includes his plan for refunds, I guarantee you it won't be tomorrow or the end of the week. More like soon, swiftly, or a couple weeks.

So, is this lawsuit week?

The thing with a lawsuit is that in Michigan small claims court can go up to $5500. I want my $4750 back, but if I have to buy a plane ticket and take two days off of work, then I'm going to go after the $5500. Guy just needs to issue refunds before it gets worse for him.

Only problem I have is that if he has a lawyer, then he can request it be taken to real court. Then I would have to get a real lawyer, and since I'm the plaintiff, I don't think that entitles me to a court appointed attorney. Then I'm already out half the money. Then it would be multiple days, multiple plane tickets. Then even if you win, you still might not get paid. What a mess man. I just want a damn machine in my house so I can stop getting hammered every time I want to play!

"Small claims cases should be filed either where the cause of action arose (for example, where the transaction or dispute took place), where the person or business you are suing is located (for example, where the defendant resides or is employed). If you are suing more than one person or business, the suit cannot be filed where the claim arose but must be filed in the district court where any of the persons live or where any of the businesses operate."

"The answer is, maybe. As with face-to-face disputes, your ability to sue in small claims court for a wrong you suffered via an Internet transaction depends on where the person or business you want to sue is located. You cannot automatically sue someone in small claims court when you have suffered an economic loss. The court has to have power over that particular party, which basically depends on where the person or business lives, works, or has an office. If your Internet-related dispute is with a person or business located in your state, then you shouldn't have a problem. However, only under specific circumstances can you sue a nonresident in your state's small claims court.
If the person or business does not regularly do business with state residents over the Internet (in other words, if the transaction at issue is a one-time event), then you will not be able to sue in your local small claims court, because that person does not live, work, or regularly do business in-state; it is therefore fundamentally unfair to ask that party to travel to your state to defend itself from a lawsuit."

This was some of the stuff I was reading TigerLaw.

Can you prove that he never had a license? I'm not being a dick. Just saying. Can you prove it?

I like your ideas Law, but the bigger this thing gets, the more money that gets involved, means more of us get screwed in the process. I don't know a thing about suing people, but I know a good defense lawyer is to least $2500. We all know that at least 1/4 has been spent. A class action thing would be nice but that means someone has to step up to the plate, and that won't be me.

Just a messy situation, but I'm going to take the steps in one direction by week's end.

This is what I'm talking about. We start talking about lawyers and that's at least half the money I spent on the machine. If it's more, he's going to want court costs payed for which screws over other buyers. I feel like a class action is the only way to get money back to our fellow buyers who are overseas. One dude was collecting a list, but I remember Blondetall collecting a list a few years ago and it only accounted for about 150 of the 250 owners. We would need to find all of the owners, get a guy leading us with a good knowledge of the legal system, and like Herb said, keep this shit behind the scenes.

I feel like a lot of guys (including myself a bit), are seeing this money slip away as the clock ticks by, or trying to get their money back before (if) Fox takes their cut, and that's why we're seeing individuals trying to talk to their own lawyers. I would take a percentage against what he has left if everyone got a fair percentage. Just need someone to lead us!

Well, they are from Texas...

When someone writes 10,000 words, you find anomalies. Then you compare anomalies to posters from pinside. I'm fairly certain I know who at least wrote the majority, but there's not really a reason to share that as I'm not 100%. Just about 95%

https://www.michigan.gov/ag/0,4534,7-164-17331-42077--,00.html

Pretty sure his bank has 180 days to dispute it. They can dispute it on how much time has passed. Just saying.

The one I suspect wrote the emails, stated that they had got a credit card chargeback.

Well at least we know he, or at least his bank, is still alive!

They disputed my claim.

I believe my bank makes a claim to his bank, which disputed it. It's not like Kevin is picking and choosing I don't think.

Yes, but I knew before filing a claim that it would be tough for me regarding the time that has passed.

I think he was trying to start a non profit so that if he "wasn't making a profit," it would fal under fair use.

Kevin, you knowingly led us on. That's why we're mad. But you know that. You're not stupid. I've got one solution to these problems. Pay me.

I can't really blame them. Like them, I figured acquiring the license is the first and most important piece of the puzzle. Who in their right mind would start a project of this scope without that? I agree with Vid that there have been ripoffs in the past, but none that were the exact name and sounds and voices from the movie.

Who on this project wouldn't have paid an extra $250, making it an even $5000, to help cover the cost of the license?

I see a lot of folks asking this. I remember asking Kevin this a long time ago. This was from Jan 9, 2013.

dayjob.PNG

Going back to see his comments, I'm forced to see my own, and it's embarrassing.

Dude made us look like fools.

You know, I've been thinking.

I'm curious to hear from Jetzxi, who had all of the inside info on Kevin leading up to this shitstorm. Not to witch hunt. Just curious about his take on it.

And on that same page, HemiOrange09 was working with Kevin to produce a lighting show they were going to sell for an extra $250. Just curious what happened to that guy, too.

Please PM email address

Damn, anyone else get that auto-reply from the Detective?

Shit just got real.

I'll do it privately but please don't post publicly. We know the site is being watched.

Speaking of, hey Kevin's lawyer that I'm paying for. This can all go away if you just pay us back.

No harm no foul, right?

Ok, nevermind.

Seriuosly man. Gave him more than a month to return the monies. Didn't want it to come to this, but that wasn't my choice.