(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion

By Xerico

4 years ago

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Topic index (key posts)

86 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #12066 What is PACER and where are you getting the court documents? Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12502 Links to where Kevin gives "his side of the story". Posted by BillySastard (2 years ago)

Post #12515 Updated court filings. Potential cash coming into bankruptcy estate. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12528 Good summation of 2 year look back and possible fraudulent transfers. Posted by flynnibus (2 years ago)

Post #12580 More legal pleadings. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12593 Facts & allegations document for VirtuaPin Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12801 Photos of Experts of Dangerous Posted by fastpinball (2 years ago)

Post #12872 Enaud's account of contacting fox regarding skit-b Posted by Enaud (2 years ago)

Post #13034 Description of an adversary proceeding (or AP) Posted by jasonp (2 years ago)

Post #13477 Discharge of debt denied by order Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13483 Stipulations for waiving chapter 7 discharge Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13528 Audio recording from Jan 27 court hearing regarding bankruptcy filing Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #13729 Summary of legal bankruptcy terminology Posted by Razorbak86 (2 years ago)

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#32 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Jared > why don't you just repeat the things you were overheard talking about at expo and also what you have told others regarding your involvement in getting to the 'truth' about Predator?.

Good stuff.

You should also post that incriminating note you intercepted at middle school recess as well...

#107 4 years ago
Quoted from Jared:

Down Simba!

Quoted from Whysnow:

I don't know what the hell this even means but I take it as a personal attack. You may want to go back and read the rest of the TOS you quoted before.


This reminded me of the time Panzer got offended by someone calling him "Tank"!!!!! Though this isnt as rich with irony, its silly all the same!

#131 4 years ago
Quoted from Pinballfantexas:

The Skit B team is building the games and that 40 games per month is just a estimate which most likely will not be reached until they get down the line of building the product day in day and day out. Just like Spooky building their games predators will slowly coming out and it will ramp up with experience they learn along they way.

Just curious, has anyone done the math on the production numbers for JJP on WoZ?

Forget what they SAID they were building/week/month, but looking at the total number actually shipped divided by the number of months since production began?

#193 4 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

I'm a preorderer, I've been reading all PRED threads. Must've missed that picture!

Just check the skit-b website or fb page... sounds like the kind of thing that would be available there...

2 weeks later
#262 4 years ago

I sure hope these machines ship with absolutely ZERO need for help from Skit-B... ;eyeroll;

But seriously, the number of folks that have completely suspended common sense on this issue is frightening.

Does anyone REALLY still want to stick with the story that Skit-B is SO BUSY pushing machines out the door that they take 2-3 weeks to respond to emails (from paying customers!!?) , cant be troubled with the "Herculean task" of updating facebook or their website, etc, etc?

really? really?

I know some don't want to believe something has gone sideways here, but how can you honestly defend Skit-B's actions?

#297 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Can we please stop with the BS licensing talk? It has already been debunked.

Damn, now THATS an update!

Can you link or point to where this was debunked- I dont recall seeing anything of the sort...

#357 4 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

I can't even get a reply from them now. Now I get the feeling they think I'm a mug who doesn't need to be told anything. That doesn't sit well with me at all. So much so, I may have to paypal claim my entire payment should this continue.

Don't expect things to improve.... why?

Look no further than 2 posts above.... folks are bragging about their intention to "stick it out" no matter how poorly they are treated as paying customers.

With enough folks that that, why bother to go to all the trouble of having decent customer service?

PT Barnum is smiling....

#367 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

atleast lowepg is an equal opportunity hater. WOZ got delivered so I suppose he needs something new to occupy his time allocated to bashing on pinball manufacturers.

Hmmm, if you mean I call bullshit when I see bullshit, I guess you're right....

However, in retrospect SkitB has made JJP look like a model of customer communication!

I get that its easier to attack the messenger, but it doesn't diminish the fact that only a fool would think things are "ok" with Predator....

The fact that pinside was used to perpetrate this farce should be an insult to everyone here. However, I understand that some here would rather everyone keep quiet in the hopes that they will still get their (potentially) unlicensed machine before the truth is known.

Keep denying and attacking the critics.... but Im confident that either:
1. Skit-B is the single worst customer service operation EVER, or
2. There's a run on the bank and they are just stalling everyone, or
3. They f'ed something up seriously with the license, or
4. All of the above

No other scenarios even remotely make sense.

#447 4 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

In your face haters and those with "terrible information" !!!

Read it quickly (all 1000+ words), sounds like an AWESOME update, but not sure what pinball game he's talking about?

1 week later
#557 4 years ago
Quoted from ledge:

the actual toy doesnt look much like the pic next to it on the box. id be looking at better resembled predators out there... that one kinda looks too cute, not much nasty to it ...
just another thing. correct me if im wrong but there is zero reference on their official skitb pinball website to their Predator pin ?.. at all .... unless im looking blindly, which i dont doubt sometimes.

oh boy...

#560 4 years ago
Quoted from ledge:

correct me if im wrong but there is zero reference on their official skitb pinball website to their Predator pin

Here you go:


They did have some alternative designs for the "new look" of their web site, but this option, for example, was thought to be a bit lacking:


3 weeks later
#615 4 years ago

*snarky message about the Predator-word-phobia rethought and then deleted*

Best wishes guys on getting your machines this year!

2 weeks later
#677 4 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

No, what most people are complaining about is that he's NOT doing what he promised... giving bi-weekly updates.


2 weeks later
#716 4 years ago

Guys, you are being totally unreasonable.

Do you realize he has to drive to Wisconsin and load pf in the back of his hatchbatch for every 10 he starts building?

Do you want him driving back and forth to get your parts, or wasting valuable MINUTES sending out a few paragraph update!?!?!?!? Emailing while operating a small car filled with pinball parts is DANGEROUS!

You folks are nuts.

Don't you people realize it sometimes takes as much as 20 seconds to reply to an email!?!!?!?!? Give the guy a break. Leave him in peace and let him get these damn _____________ machines done!

#750 4 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

Pretty sure a 2 per week conservative estimate is fine to assume for now. Maybe they speed it up to 3 or 4 after doing it for a while. Either way, the back half of buyers are looking at more than a year for certain. Wouldn't get too excited.

Hell, I think there were stretches of MONTHS where JJP wasn't putting out much more than 2/week..... with a FACTORY....

Obviously that was due to supply problems, QC problems, etc, etc.... but SkitB would be susceptible to the same variables....

So, I think Whysnow's (admitted Wild Ass Guess) of 5/week to be fantasy.... heck, it takes this guy 3 weeks to write a biweekly email, how fast do you really think he can assemble pinball machines!

#788 4 years ago

Boy, I hope SkitB doesnt need to come back to pinside to get buyers for #2....

It will be difficult to square the disdain for customer communication shown here in the last year with any dramatic increase in participation when they want to collect money again.

Having said that, pinheads seem to be a pretty forgiving (or forgetful?) group when they see something they really want.... If ________ is a hit, all might be forgiven. But at 1-2 shipped/week, I think it will take a long time for a critcal mass of happy owners of __________ .

#801 4 years ago
Quoted from beatmaster:

this is what i don't get.
why show or talk about game #2 when people want to see pictures of that famous team working on Predator.

Better them talking about it rather then trying to collect money for it.

Few things made me MORE distrustful of JJP then when they starting pushing people to prepay for THe Hobbit before WOZ was out the door....it just reeks of "stealing from Peter to pay Paul"

#809 4 years ago
Quoted from NinJaBooT:

Still curious how SkitB is bank rolling EOD?

Um, hope this answers the question:

Screen Shot 2015-02-11 at 5.47.54 PM.png

#842 4 years ago
Quoted from Perspex:

Starts with E and has big boobies.

Elvis: the Later Years?

#848 4 years ago
Quoted from jrawlinson_2000:

So much for Skitb responding to emails, I have now asked for information on three occasions and a refund twice, and nothing back from them.
So what do I have to do?
a) Start a thread on Pinside? - It worked for another user.
b) Open a PayPal dispute?
c) Kiss good-bye to my cash?

Paypal. They dont f#$%^ around.

It's not like you didn't give him every chance to take the MONUMENTALLY difficult 20 seconds to send you a reply. Folks, how can you not be in a panic over this behavior? A brand new machine, from a brand new company- built in his kitchen? What happens when you have a problem? Something that actually requires WORK (more than replying to a simple email).

Sorry, but this kind of behavior from a company is either:
Ignorance, or
Choose you're favorite cause.... but don't pretend its some other noble reason.

It's time to set aside the childish excuses:
"He's too busy building your game to answer email"
"He's obligated by licensing agreement to sew his mouth shut"

#851 4 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Never tried this before, but if you are recommending it, I'll give it a go. What tools would you suggest?

Lol, probably a "butterfly stitch"

#861 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Waiting for the 30th anniversary I believe.

30th anniversary of sending payment?

#979 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

What fiend would tilt a photo of Scarlett Johanson, the only actress under 30 who actually eats sandwiches?

Just saw her in "Under the skin"

jaw-droppingly hot....

#991 4 years ago
Quoted from Ballsofsteel:

for some reason, I now think of her as a strange soulless alien invader now. weird friggin movie man, just weird

There was a movie after that scene?

Hmmm, Ill have to go back and review it.

I recall very little outside the first scene where she stripped the chick and redresses herself...

#1066 4 years ago
Quoted from icust298:

If you're going to get fired for looking at a "boob" pic at work, you're not as valuable to the company as you think.


Just wait till you get your first real job!

#1089 4 years ago
Quoted from johngravenews:

Somehow I doubt anyone will get a refund unless someone new signs up,

I really HOPE they don't need new people to sign-up!

What in the world would that person even look at to make a decision? Their website? lol. Sorry, but a photo of the edges of a box of PF's isnt really the most compelling visual to put down 1,000's of $.

Also, their total lack of transparency outside the "secret society of biweekly emailers" would be unlikely to inspire new investment (by the sane).

No, I really hope they have a waiting list or something they can go to for cash because new blood would be hard to come by at this point.

Ship a complete game and show an unboxing video here? Now THAT would be a completely different story.

#1098 4 years ago
Quoted from Betelgeuse:

Some have insisted that it didn't make sense for SkitB to promote Predator anymore, since it was sold out.

Anyone who really believes THIS is the reason SkitB has sanitized the name predator from EVERY possible online source is a few french fries short of a happy meal....

The mental gymnastics folks go to rationalize bad behavior from these companies is just astounding.... and worse than just being naive - it will insure that it continues.

#1109 4 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

Thought I saw Lowepg raise his!!!!

I *was* ..... but after falling in love with Experts of Dangerous, its hard to commit to Preorderator.

#1110 4 years ago
Quoted from Jared:

I thought the "waiting list" was quite long.

Long...but distinguished...

#1209 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

It is not one call, but multiple calls and messages until timing worked out for them and they found the right person to complain to at the right time.
I am not sure if you are familiar with a large corporation/business.....
No phone calls from meddleing kids = no red flags.

Whysnow, I'm not sure YOU are familiar with how any corporation operates based on some of these statements.

If you've ever even SEEN a contract from a company as big as FOX, you'd realize they tend to be EXTREMELY detailed is what's allowed and not allowed- to the point that ones eyes usually glass over. To suggest that they might not have been clear on things like online advertising and even the use of the WORD Predator is just insane, laughable, sad, or all three.

Also, to think a REAL licensing agreement would be so shoddy to make "phone calls from meddling kids" break it - it just beyond comprehension.

I know you are passionate and out this and have taken on the role of "Protector of the Faith" on pinside, but your increasingly shrill defense on their actions is becoming embarrassing.

Moreover, rather than blaming the critics, people here that convinced others NOT to seek refunds when perhaps they could have - should be rethinking their culpability in this problem now....

I hope no one loses their money and has to learn a hard lesson, but let's face it, the writing has been on the wall for some time on this....

The ramp up of EOD and the obscure status of predator (seriously, the side of Pfs in a box?!?!) might suggest a swap from predator to EOD has been the backup plan for some time....

#1219 4 years ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

lol I'm just saying customers first. You make shit happen for them. Refund everyone else you can't ship machines for. If you are going down, take care of everyone you can, while you can. That is what I'm saying

Since (mostly because of SkitB) we are left to conjecture, here's what I think we're going to see:

A sad, mournful email that stated that due to circumstances beyond his control, Predator can't be made. The reasons will be vaguely shared, but there may be some inference that jealous interlopers conspired to make things harder.

The "good news" will be that that no one will be left "out to dry" and all Predator pre-payers will get - a discount off EOD. If they'd like a refund, it will have to come after SkitB can transfer their order to someone else waiting in line.

So you want to sue SkitB for not delivering Predator? Hmmm, what's Predator? See anything about predator on their website? Try finding a public statement that "the game" he's making is called predator.... All the updates I've seen over the last year or two talk about "the game"

Yes, plenty of conjecture there, but I think it now makes just as much sense as believing "everything is fine". AND conjecture will fill the vacuum of facts that SkitB has brought upon itself.

I'd love to be wrong.... But at least people may get "a game"

#1237 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Those people have little credibility


#1246 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Does anyone here thing they could stop Stern from shipping WWE by making a few phone calls?

Didn't work- hard as I tried!

#1251 4 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Some people tried to do this to Stern concerning Star Trek. There's some guys in Texas that have proof


#1262 4 years ago
Quoted from Trekie:

Why cant anybody Provide the names of the these upstanding people who have taken it upon them selves to decide what titles can and cant be made? If they have decided to make 250 collectors loose there money. They should be rewarded multiple law suites for there malice. Why let them hide behind a keyboard?

If 250 collectors lose their money, I'm pretty sure you already have the identity and contact info of the ONLY person who would be responsible.... It's the same guy you sent money to....

#1320 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Also, the lack of PBN to reply to my inquiry is not a good sign in my POV. I found it pretty odd that it did not deem a reply, don't you.

Excellent point.

Who could ever consider writing an article about Predator and SkitB without YOUR valuable input.

Obviously it would lack any credibility...

(Insert favorite eyeroll emoticons of your choice)


#1336 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

Focus here guys.... anonymous sources ....... Martin.

I respectfully think you are still focusing in the altogether wrong place.

If the rumors are erroneous, why give "anonymous emailers" any credibility at all?
And so who cares what they said to Whysnow or Martin or or anyone on pinside?

The ONLY party in this issue whose statements (and more importantly, actions) really matter is Kevin. Now, SkitB has themselves implied that something is perhaps wrong... so i think its on THEM to clarify, not create as witchhunt over "anonymous emails"

Let's face it, if those emails were groundless, they should and would be ignored.

#1339 4 years ago

*deleted*.... no sense piling on....

#1347 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

By the way, is it me or does anyone else wonder why no one is willing to post this email from an anonymous source?

Well, it sure fits the theme of this project

Secret/private update emails from Kevin
Anonymous emails from Texas
Sanitized websites, postings, pictures, etc

I've never see a project with LESS clear information. I work with defense contractors who are more forthcoming on projects they're working on!

#1356 4 years ago

Making pinball machines is hard.

#1359 4 years ago

Super-condensed summary:

Yesterday's note:
"The very existence of the project is threatened"
Today's note:
"Don't worry, be happy"

I'm going to guess that first email received more than a few immediate replies asking for refunds. That prompted a less dire email the next day.

#1376 4 years ago

Given what I've seen/read over this weekend:
I'm now even more confident there's a serious problem with the license.... anonymous stuff has supported it- but after having seen Kevins last 2 emails- it tends to rather confirm it (IMO).

Just a thought:

Could SkitB ship a sanitized game - Predator-ish art but no overt references.

Perhaps a DIY process to finish it.(translite, ROM, maybe even mylar "decals" to add some Predator flavor after-the-fact).

#1388 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

This is directly from the email>
"In short, no matter what, nobody is going to get left out to dry on this one, I can promise you that."
<end of what was directly from the email>

I think its disingenuous to pull that ONE quote from the email without sharing the bulk of it.

If folks want to keep playing this game of shrouding the communication- ok- well fine. But if you're going to share ONE positive sentence, I think its only fair to share it all. Otherwise, you've really skewed the message.

#1393 4 years ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

Or maybe all that phone call shit is made up

Absolutely possible. The whole thing could be bullshit....

However, MUCH more telling to ME is not the rumors, but how SkitB has reacted. Innocent people dont stop talking when they are falsely accused. They generally make bold statements with righteous indignation (see Jacks comments after his lawsuit story broke).

SkitB knows EXACTLY what the issues people are having are. Here's the simple message they would have sent (if they could):

"Folks, lots of rumors floating around the internet- no surprises there! We are behind schedule, but we are busting our butts to make this game. While I cant promise a delivery date, here's what I CAN promise:
1. We are making a Predator pinball machine
2. We have a license to do it."

Bam, end of story.

#1418 4 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

I seriously think some people love to see folks lose their money and also see Skit-B crash and burn.

I seriously think you're wrong. If you're inferring that the critics somehow take pleasure in SkitB's implosion here- I think you're missing the point.

I would suggest that its FAR MORE dangerous to the health of this hobby to "prop - up" and make excuses for bad business behavior (at best) or worse, fraudulent behavior. All that does is incentivize the next poorly-thought-out business plan to take flight and start collecting money.

By the way, folks here at pinside are partially to blame for the state of things....we are dong this stuff to ourselves! From JPOP to JJP to SkitB to DP to PPS to Stern... in their own ways- we've turned a blind eye to shitty business practices.


Because it would seem that even the most responsible people tend to lose their minds and are willing to stick their heads in the sand and eat shit if their "grail pin" is on the line.

Believe me, all this bullshit stops when BUYERS stop sending their money in. However, as long as people trip over themselves and "sell-out" Stern LE's the minute their announced- you can kiss complete-at-launch-software goodbye. And as long as people will prepay for these startups (and take on ALL the risk) then they will continue to be treated like dolts and unsecured creditors...

#1450 4 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

if I knew then what I know now I would have never preordered but for some to claim this is somehow my or any of the other 249 peoples fault is very shortsighted and adds to the frustration.

Well, shit, you're right.

BUT, I didn't mean to single out the skitB people as being to blame, at least not anymore than ANY of the rest of us that have been supporting JJP, DP or Stern are to blame.

I was trying to make a bigger point about not holding these companies accountable.

Did NOT mean it to come off like rubbing sand in wounds here.

#1455 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

a little late for that

I'm not sure you and I will agree on this topic. But let me say in no uncertain terms, I don't ant anyone (including you and Kevin) to lose money over this fiasco.

I think the whole thing hurts our hobby.

#1459 4 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Here are direct quotes from Kevin that are in the Predator Updates thread from a couple of months ago.
Regarding Licensing:
“Licensing is obviously a big deal, and while these types of things have simply been accepted in the past, indie pinball (yes, I'm going to keep calling it that) is potentially a completely different beast altogether. Gathering copyright and likeness permissions is a huge, daunting process, but is very rewarding in the end. That being said, this is something you need to have reasonably taken care of before making any major announcements or commitments, and we've done a lot of work and spent countless hours making sure everyone involved is happy with how things turned out. I have many stories I could tell here, but I think I will wait until a time when there's a little less actual news to catch up on At any rate, I can see how one might wonder if a small indie startup would be able to handle this sort of task, but it is certainly not an issue over here. Don't expect any wild omissions or absences when you open up your first Skit-B new-in-box!”

i think this is a classic case of people hearing what they want to hear...

To me, this doesn't say shit about them having a license from Fox for Predator. He used 150 words to say, well, wtf did he say? "Licensing is hard"

How about this:
"Regarding licensing:
We've been granted the licensing to build Predator Pinball!"

9 words.

Wake up everyone. There's a REASON he chooses this convoluted manner of writing. It's not an accident. No more than the sanitation of the website was "website maintenance." There's more info about something called Duckhunt than ANYTHING about pinball on that website... it would be comical if so many people werent out so much cash...

#1468 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Didn't I just say that?

yes, but you're not wearing a cape.

good update. If true, I nominate you official spokesmodel for boutique pinball. Your email was more succinct than the last 2 vague and meandering emails....

#1563 4 years ago
Quoted from jrawlinson_2000:

I've asked for a refund a number of times over the past couple of months and not even got a reply to acknowledge receipt of the email!
I don't care how busy you are a simply two word reply is all, 'on it'.

Yes, disappointing that Kevin can get a VERY self-serving message out by way of SPfxted very quickly but cant find time to respond MONTHS later to a paying customer?

The cynic (realist?) in me thinks this is Kevin just asking for ANOTHER 2 weeks to get his shit together.... or transfer funds into a new account.... or just get a reprieve from the avalanche of emails requesting refunds after those emails HE sent.

As usual, the near infinite patience and benefit-of-the-doubt granted by pinsiders is indeed heart-warming and overwhelming....

If I had a scheme where i needed to raise money with little or no business plan (and a total lack of morals), THIS is certainly the first place I'd come. Banks are so stuffy with all their requests for FACTS and PROOF and stuff....


#1575 4 years ago
Quoted from captainadam_21:

I am not a cop or a legal expert, but does it get to a point where this becomes theft?

Nope, not "theft" - just "Indie Pinball" - as a famous character form this thread like to call it....

#1616 4 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

I disagree. Put out a great game and people will be lining up for the next one if it's a title they want at a good price.

Couldn't disagree more....

There might be 10 people with enough "WTF-Cash" to bet on Kevin again, but i cant imagine enough to make a full project work.....at least not pre-order.


IF Predator is awesome.
IF everyone gets one.

THEN, I think he could make another title and sell it IF and only if he moved to a traditional (not so traditional in pinball) model where he sold stuff that was ready-to-ship.

Multi-year pre-orders? No way. Let's be honest.
At BEST Kevin has been a horrible communicator. And this breakdown happened after he collected his money. That is an undisputable FACT.
At WORST? Well, there's no facts there yet.... I guess we give him the benefit of the doubt - for 2 weeks at least....

Good luck folks....

#1646 4 years ago

I was just thinking:
I feel bad for the poor bastard who hasn't logged on in a few days, sees 500 new posts in this thread and thinks "Damn, they must have shipped a machine" ... or at the very least, "there MUST be some actual new factual information"

#1649 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

TBe nice if there was a 'summary' type post

Here you go, the 30-second summary:

Kevin sent a note saying "there have been many recent actions by
certain parties that threaten the very existence of everything I've done to
keep this project going for the past few years"
****** that made some people nervous

Kevin also said, "no matter what, nobody is going to
get left out to dry on this one, I can promise you that."
****** that made some people less nervous

Some anonymous folks said(among other things), "SkitB does not have a valid license for the pinball and that Fox has served Kevin with a C&D which he ignored. And, an expose is forthcoming- The sky *IS* falling"
****** that made some people nervous

SpfxdTed called Kevin and passed along "The game is being made. The license is ok. Cant go into details NOW, but in 2 weeks time all will be made clear. Dont panic"
****** that made people less nervous

In between all that, I called Whysnow a boob, he called me a troll. Rinse, repeat and that is about the sum of all things.

#1674 4 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

The technical term for lowpeg is not "Troll" and "Leech" is too kind.
I am struggling to find his definition for my role playing game days. There was a Demon feeding on negative energy and despair, aggravating drama and festering on spiritual wounds (was it D&D? Or another RPG game?). Cannot remember its name though.


I'm sure you'll figure it out...


#1717 4 years ago
Quoted from lamihh:

I simply don't believe that Kevin has written such a clear Statement without having a license.

I would submit that Kevin has rarely (if ever) written a CLEAR statement.

Seriously, have you ever seen anyone this side of a politician dance around words so much? The clearest message fro Kevin in months hasn't even come from Kevin, it comes 2nd hand from Ted.

#1734 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

This is not true, Gary Stern may have said it cost Stern $1 million to develope a typical game, but that's all he said. He did not break it down in any way. Plus Stern has a team of engineeres, designers, software teams.

Dude, you forgot electricity...

The cost of frozen burritos and electricity to run the microwaves *alone* in the Stern breakroom adds approximately $350 to the cost of each pinball Stern ships....



#1743 4 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

Thanks Rob had no idea this pod cast existed, very informative. I've been a supporter of SkitB for a long time but this is my final 2 weeks in the project, Kevin either has to show me this is happening with built games or I'm out.

The problem is, there may be no "out" any longer. There's at least one member here that said Kevin has ignored his emails for MONTHS on a refund.... and that goes back to when things were "ok"

Now, with all this pressure here and Kevin admitting there ARE issues (though vaguely) it's hard to believe he will suddenly become more responsive, especially if there's no "A-ha Wonderful" moment in "2 weeks."

So, in a way, its understandable why some folks will just REFUSE to accept anything but a positive outcome. They have no choice at this point.

#1772 4 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Id also like to add if there's no license then those pins he's working on are gonna be giant paper weights.

Maybe, maybe not.

I think FOX would go after him for building them, not the 5 or 10 people that might have one in their possession? But who knows....

My gut feel for the "2 weeks" reprieve is Kevin thinks that might be enough time to actually COMPLETE several games.... maybe not 10, but enough to fill the frame of a nice photo.... maybe like 6 games done and the other 4 in various states of assembly.

THIS will be enough of a breadcrumb to keep the faithful from jumping on the ledge....

#1802 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

That Sony is one aggressive company! They even go after people who violate *other* studios licenses!

Bwhahaha. Nice.

#1825 4 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

Hi Guys!

Anyone that knows me knows I won't even consider touching unlicensed projects!
Speculation can now rest.
Thank you.

Quoted from PaulCoff:

Then this is not for real?

So then this is BS?

Ok, but does anyone else find irony that the one guy who's vouching for Kevin having a proper license primary business is building virtual pinball cabinets whose purpose is to load them with downloaded pinball ROMS thus violating copywrite license.

Full disclosure: I'm also guilty of this and I think virtuapins products are pure awesome- but I just found a bit of irony

#1850 4 years ago
Quoted from hassellcastle:

Please see my new poll i have started for those in on Predator. I'm curious with so much talk of those that have jumped ship, and those that want their money back or those that are really still in on the game.
Lets see where this pre-order stands. This may show why those that have requested a refund aren't getting a response. Im concerned funds may be gone.

Its a good idea, but I suspect the intent of your poll will be hijacked by folks that want to make it more of a referendum on Kevin/SkitB

Can you make a poll that ISNT anonymous?

#1870 4 years ago

Well, before any crucifies "2nd-hand-stories" (namely the podcast guy) please note that the ONE SHRED of positive info that has people holding out (inexplicably) for 2 weeks - is 2nd-hand as well.

If not for various theorizing, the only things anyone would have to go on are the "facts"
Fact: Kevin "said" he had a license
Fact: Kevin collected nearly three quarters of a million dollars... (more/less?)
Fact: Kevin later removed ALL traces of the game from ALL locations - including email!
Fact: Kevin sent an email saying people are threatening the very existence of the project
Fact: Kevin "said" no one would be screwed.
Fact: No machine has shipped.

Pretty thin on "facts"..... and much of it is stuff that's been said/promised. I'd look more closely at the ACTIONS.... Those tell a pretty damning tale- for now.

#1875 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Trick question. How could someone sabotage a deal that was weak

or expired. But I think you are on to it.

Here's my guess:
Kevin had a limited license to build the game. Limited in scope AND duration.
It would extend the time frame he PROJECTED it would take to start building.
That changed.
It became clear he could NOT ship machines prior to the license expiring.
Since he was out of compliance he tried to go under-the-radar = website purge.
He decided there was no sense renewing the license until he had a handle on how long it would really take to ship the machines.
Now that he's got a handle on shipping dates, he's going to try to renew the license.
In 2 weeks he will have 10 ready to ship and a new license.

Now in the meantime, while trying to fly under the radar (with expired license) a bunch of yahoos decided to play license-police and bring this to FOX's attention... Who had about a billion more important things on their mind than a guy making pinballs in his basement.

Batshit crazy? Maybe, but plausible?

#1912 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

I know. I'll drive over to Michigan and help Kevin re-theme it (Click image to enlarge)

Ahhhh, yes, pre-breast-reduction Jen Connolly.... (Click to enlarge) ah- if it were only so easy .....

#1937 4 years ago

back to some classic Jenco:

And this before/after..... tragic.


#1944 4 years ago

Last 24 hours is the most productive in this threads history....

#1953 4 years ago
Quoted from Astropin:


Winner. Love bodypaint- havent seen this one before.v

#1966 4 years ago
Quoted from Breaking_Dad:

I like my girls crack skinny

Not me.... I'll take curves over 14-yr-old-boy-physique all day long!

#1972 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I think paypal has already answered that by denying the refunds. The only way someone gets their money back now is if Kevin processes it.

Yeah, I think is clear now that was horseshit.

Funny thing is, folks could have figured that out in the beginning as well- it's not like the policy has changed.... but i guess people just read/heard what they wanted to hear at the time.


Related question:
If you FUND your paypal with a CC, are you still able to use the buyers protection you may have with your CC issuer? Ive been using paypal since its started, but never had to try to cancel a payment 6+months later- so not sure how that would work.

#1990 4 years ago
Quoted from mufcmufc:

I'm here to find out when the fuck Kevin is going to man up and tell it like it is

Two more weeks (TM)

We are killing that time with some of the best content this thread has ever seen.... Jennifer Connolly bodacity....


......................................................................................^ PAN DOWN DAMNIT!!!! ^...................

#1996 4 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

That picture is missing the bottom part. It's available if you just google for it.

lol- I know- I was just trying to avoid having ALL my posts get warnings....

#2007 4 years ago

If you can negotiate a "special arrangement" with paypal- I'm in!

#2033 4 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

I'm certainly not going to trust my fellow pinheads who stood on the sidelines pointing/laughing and got joy out of watching this whole thing crash and burn.

"Not trust"?
You might "not like", I think the ONLY mistrust needs to be aimed at the person who took your money and made the promises - not the critics, FOX or Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Actually, if this thing crashes and burns, perhaps more trust in the folks that are critical of the whole pre-pay-pinball-scheme (not just skitB) is exactly the position folks should be taking.

Also, I keep hearing this same irrational complaint about pinsider "rooting for failure" or "rejoicing at people losing money" - as if ANY criticism of ANY pinball project = want industry to die. Unless you can point to examples Ive not seen- I'd say this is unfounded and unfair and call bullshit on that statement.

And so as not to stray from the recent newer and better theme here:

For my friends feeling "underwater" on their predator:

#2035 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

"...but you had to have known the risk monetarily supporting a completely unproven startup company right?"...
Everybody with that 20/20 hindsight...

I think it was easy for people to GET IN to this project because it DID provide a good balance of risk vs reward:
a modest deposit to hold a place, the balance due once production began.

I would never personally pre-order in a million years (unless Dangerous Curves in announced), but that original payment program seems very reasonable for people who DO enjoy pre-ordering.

It's only once that policy changed and more money was demanded where the trains flew off the tracks (for me) in terms of reasonable risk vs reward/ However, many people have publicly stated they have enough play money that they could afford to lose $5K and understood the risks. Bully for them, I envy that position (because its not mine). All those folks can give the critics a hearty "F-you, I spend my money the way I like."

So, I don't fault anyone's logic for jumping into this program initially (with the exception of believing there was a "special" paypal program).

Nothing in pinball is perfectly back and white. However, this Jennifer photo IS:

#2055 4 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

Sadly, I am at work and cannot contribute a Jennifer Connelly picture. So I'll just reitterate that, while I think she is gorgeous, blondes rule.

I agree with both these points.

And, while I prefer blondes, there are certainly examples of hotness in all colors.

And, much as i love Jennifer, she just doesnt look "right" as a blonde:


#2070 4 years ago

Im concerned that this thread is being derailed by anonymous and non-anonymous instigators that are trying to shutdown the excellent conversation on Jennifer Connolly.

Im "OK" with slight side-track conversations about Scarlet Johannsen, but let's please keep this in the right direction.

Now, givien the fact that it might be another week or so of content to fill, perhaps we should open it up to hot actresses from the 80's and 90's...

I give you exhibit A: Elisabeth Shue.

#2096 4 years ago
Quoted from TooFet:

Is Foxtel trying to tell me something?...


Depending on your perspective, this thread could actually be about a number of those titles:

Predator Fails
Criminal Minds.

Mulholland Falls Jennifer Connelly as Allison Ponds.jpg

#2112 4 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

So.. we've lost all pretense of posting anything 'on topic', apparently.


You are absolutely right. Several people here seem to forget how to keep this thread on topic. Ill get us back on track.

#2118 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

That picture is as gray as your Heart...


My only fear is the possibly that I'll run out of jencon photos to post is Kevin stretches this out much longer...

#2119 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Half chilled??

Hmmm, i think you missed one of the POINTS of this thread....

#2123 4 years ago

I marked that image UNSAFE.... unsafe to those of us who like women with curves.... women who put their cleavage on display- not visible ribs....

#2161 4 years ago

Im running low on jennifer connolly pics.... where to go- so many choice....

Kate Beckinsdale is for sure a favorite! But, Ill stick with Jennifers with great boobs... So I give you Jennifer Love Hewitt:

#2183 4 years ago

I'm thinking in honor of the ACC tournament.... some college dance teams....

The Louisville Cards Girls were particularly impressive today even though their team lost!

#2184 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:


YES, there will be a MAJOR announcement within the next 2 weeks with everything you want to know.
Everything is moving forward.


#2222 4 years ago

Meh, that other thread (the official official one) is actually good for a laugh.

THIS one, even weeding through all the bullshit (and chicks) is actually a more accurate picture...

Hell, read the last YEARS worth of messages from Kevin and you wouldn't even know what game hes talking about its so vague.

AND, the mods allow him to get away with seemingly ridiculous statements like this:
"If every two weeks just isn't doing it for you, go ahead and check out our developer's journal over at http://www.skitbpinball.com and see what else we've cooked up over here. Deliberate communication overload? Sure!"

Communication Overload. Really?

Frankly I'm surprised pinside doesn't shutdown any and all pure marketing hype forums like that one until he answers to the people who already sent him money.... but such is the rose-colored view we often accept as OK here....

Sorry, to get back on topic:

#2245 4 years ago
Quoted from BillySastard:

Redheads! There's finally something worthwhile in this thread with all the ginger pics.

Well, I usually don't like to be "in the red", but in this context it doesn't seem too bad

#2254 4 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

I've always heard red heads are evil.
Is that true ?

If this is EVIL, who the hell wants to be GOOD?

#2260 4 years ago


#2265 4 years ago

Um, Golden Globes? Yes and Yes....

#2273 4 years ago
Quoted from jeffspinballpalace:

Like my ladies to be able to sing also.


I submit Julianne Hough as a quadruple threat: Sing, Dance, gorgeous & pretty rocking body

#2280 4 years ago

catching up on a fee episodes of Black Sails..... some nice eye candy on that show!


#2337 4 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Since you've got the inside scoop, when's it coming? And what is it? And most importantly, why the heck is SkitB sitting on good news if it's got good news to share?!?

Even if this "good news" is as Ted alluded to, an updated license with FOX that clears up the previous murky licensing issues- I don't see how that in any way clears up the issue of him blatantly ignoring customers who've been asking for refunds for several months in some cases. He's refused to even acknowledge them, but he has time to chat with Ted to get out a self-serving "gimme 2 more weeks" when things were getting toasty here.

THAT issue has nothing to do with licenses or website or manufacturing. THAT is a simple question of trustworthiness and business ethics and common courtesy.

Not sure how ANY announcement walks back all that....

#2352 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Hold on...hold on....I don't know what it is, but, big news and good news announcement is coming soon!

Quoted from spfxted:

Just soon....very soon. That to me means days...

Quoted from spfxted:

Hopefully we'll get all the answers soon and we can all stop guessing...

You keep alluding to the fact that you have inside info here- why not share it? Or.... not say anything at all?

Why keep teasing these guys with your access when they cant get responses for months (THEY being paying customers).

#2360 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Fine. I was giving info I was getting and trying to be helpful.
That's it. Bye!


#2366 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

the guy was trying to pass along what he can, you then keep it up with the same constant bullshit trolling, he gets sick of it and opts to not pass stuff along, and now you mock him.
real class act buddy
you effectively pissed off one of the nicer guys around that has for a while been our only source of ANY information. thanks.

I'm sure he won't be able to stay quiet about his inside scoop- don't worry

#2370 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Thanks for the PM's. No worries...there are obviously some assholes on here. If you have questions...just PM me...

Welcome back

Assholes? Are you referring to the guy who took people's money then refused to answer their emails or the guys who are criticizing him? ;eye roll;

#2409 4 years ago
Quoted from PorkChopExpress:

I think everything that could be said, has been said.
The sudden stop to the boob pics is very alarming as pointed out by others.
Who's up for a temporary rule that if you want to post a comment or idea that has been said numerous times before, then YOU SHOULD POST A BOOB/HOTTIE PIC to go with it.

Apologies for my recent transgression.... blame it on being in North Carolina during March Madness!

#2483 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

From reading those emails, followed by nothing from Kevin (and I bet he's lurking on this thread). I would say Kevin is somewhat unstable. Those emails make zero sense and he'd have been better off saying nothing than what he did. If he says those who ask for refunds will get refunds and at the same time says actions speak louder than words. How about this for actions either ship the pins already it's been 'complete' for over a year allegedly or if he doesn't or can't ship the pins give the damn refunds already. What's the hold-up, if the money is secure than refund it where it will be truley safe form nefarious plots.

Guys, he's talked to Ted and Ted said everything is perfectly fine.

In fact, super duper duper good news coming very soon.

In fact, Ted has reiterated this as recently as yesterday (about 3 times), so i think is safe to say, some positive announcement is forthcoming that will address:
- license issues
- production schedule
- the growing list of people whose refund requests have been ignored.

So, really, just Stay Calm and Sit Tight.

The Ohio Show is only a few days away, perhaps he was planning an announcement or reveal in conjunction with that.

Personally, I'm hoping to see more information about Experts of Dangerous and perhaps even title #3.

Happy St Patricks Day!

#2490 4 years ago
Quoted from notaflyingtoy:

What I don't understand is why anyone would believe anything Kevin says, regardless of whom relayed the information (not a reflection on Ted).


#2512 4 years ago
Quoted from ledge:

why is the info so secretive ?..

i think Kevin (mistakenly) thinks if he emails it- it will somehow mitigate non-believers from pouncing on the ambiguity or negative points.... as if theres such a thing as "secret" when 100's of people are involved AND the internet.

Sadly, I think it also reinforced the fact (that he now FINALLY admits) that he's had license issues all along and he's trying to limit any first-hand communication that can leak back to Fox.

It's "dumb" on a similar scale as PPS wanting photos they post NOT to be re-posted.

Well, at least he DID send an update and it will be like most of them:
- The true believers will find enough to cling to, and
- The jerks will find enough to criticize him on

#2568 4 years ago

So let me summarize:

(Kevins own words, minus the martyr-like contextual fluff)

The atmosphere around our Predator project has gotten pretty thick.
About a year ago, we proudly declared that our mission was complete.
I'm aware that sounds like a bit of a cop-out.
This situation is of my own doing.
this project has become more than I can handle on my own.
While manufacturing these games here is certainly possible, it is most definitely not optimal.
Our ability to see the manufacturing through to the end has been a constant public concern from day 1
We learned that our licensing deal really wasn't what we thought it was.
In short, I've pretty much done everything wrong during this whole process.
Thank you all for sticking with us.

#2577 4 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

So let me summarize: you are a Troll. Happy to use the ignore button.

I know this last message was not the epic solution everyone was looking for, but no need to stoop to name calling...

But that aside,
Reading that long message from Kevin- do you think he would have even shared the murky details he did without the proding from the critics (trolls?)?

I'd say hell no.

He was clearly dragged kicking and screaming to this point (by his own admission) and for the first time coming off the "everything in fine with the license" narrative which has now clearly been a lie.

So, shoot the messengers if it makes you feel better, but I would submit there's FAR MORE divulged from Kevin as a result of the shitnado here and elsewhere.

#2591 4 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Agreed, but you have some serious time on your hands.

Lol, not really.

I typed that sitting at a Starbucks at the BWI airport between flights...

I know Kevin would have people believe that typing a message is a massive task where resources must be re-tasked and takes several weeks, but some of us can send a simple message in 90 seconds while drinking coffee...

#2829 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

If the first batch gets built, then I assume all 250 get built.

That's one of the top 5 most naive statements I've seen in this thread (and there is a LOT of competition).

nephaste nailed it with his comment. Your machine is already "on the production line" - safe to say your position is dramatically different than most of the others....

If this thing shuts down right now ( a distinct possibility reading Kevin's last confessions), there will likely be 10 machines out there... Perhaps in various states of completion....but no (ethical) supplier will likely make one more part for Kevin given his misleading/untrue statements about having a license.

#2830 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Your cheerleading and repeated reassurances may have convince some people into staying in this mess well past its due date. Maybe it's best if YOU step aside for once and let others try to clean up.

Good point, and one I echoed a few weeks ago.

Whysnow, instead of this shrill cry for everyone not in to shut up, perhaps you need to consider YOUR culpability in (what has now been proven to be) your completely baseless pumping of this project.

Your shouting down of the critics - especially those suggesting there's a licensing problem should also make you feel a bit embarrassed (at best)....

#2877 4 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Enlighten us. For $5,000 what is Predator better than? Lots of old pins you could get they are much better and proven. This pin is just blah.

I think you meant to post this 3 years ago?

Otherwise, that train has left the station (and made 25 stops, then , recently, flew off trestle bridge).

Please go away with this line of conversation- I REALLY don't want to be forced into agreement with Whysnow by calling you a troll

#2878 4 years ago
Quoted from guyincognito:

The Players in the Con (Confidence Game)
There are three key players in any long con: a victim, a con artist, and one or more associates.

The Mark: The intended victim of
The Grifter: A practitioner of confidence tricks, or more informally, a con artist. A grifter may play many roles, and often creates multiple personas over their career.
The Shill: An accomplice to the grifter, who has no apparent connection to the con. Shills are put in place to encourage the mark to act in the desired way.

#2944 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

so everyone else is allowed to guess at random shit , but I am not?

Well, no, i dont think he's saying that, however:

I think its fair to say everyone elses guessing seems to be a lot better than your track record has been....

#3000 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

lowepg trolled him out of the thread a few pages back.
Can't really blame Ted for departing after that.


I didn't "troll him out of the thread" - he posted subsequently and is still posting now.

But since you brought it up- I said it was BS that Kevin would chat with Ted while ignoring others for months who've asked for refunds... I also questioned his "inside info"

Ted said (per Kevin) things were fine with the license and BIG GOOD NEWS in 2 weeks.

In retrospect, I stand by my comments, you can decide for yourself if Ted should stand by his, OR, as I suggested, not say anything at all without the whole story

#3002 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I am actually still confident that something will get worked out and that Kevin will take care of everyone


#3018 4 years ago
Quoted from SkitBPinball:

This is the magic of being a small, non-profit company. Not only does it keep the games more affordable, everything we get goes right back into the company itself as a direct investment towards the next game. Sounds like a system that works, to me.

Hmmm, maybe a silver lining to the issue....

Since Kevin set this up as a nonprofit, I wonder if the prepayers can write-off their payments as charitable deductions?

#3048 4 years ago


Screen Shot 2015-03-19 at 5.47.02 PM.png

#3061 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I am not sure when you gave him money but I did so AFTER the vast majority of what you bring up was long over.
I gave him my 3k last June (28th I thin it was for the deadline).
At that point onward he has not spent very much on games and shows have been very limited.

I don't think he kept YOUR money in a separate envelope only to be opened when he started making your machine

It's POSSIBLE (just guessing here), that all the money was deposited into an account.

#3102 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

yes. communication is needed (and has been needed)
I would like Kevin to come to Pinside for a q&a.
I think it would be a good idea to get a moderator involved

ok, ok, I'll moderate if that's what you're getting at.

I'd start with a few softball questions:
1. Kevin, did you received a cease and desist from Fox? Yes or No?
2. When you continually stated the license was "OK" would you now say those statements were a lie, ignorance or both?
3. Please explain the "special arrangement" you boasted about with paypal?
4. As a followup, when exactly can folks who've asked for refunds (dating back to January) expect a reply email and more importantly, their money?
5. Tell us more about that nonprofit status you are enjoying?

Then, I guess I'd want to move into the tougher questions....

#3120 4 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

i'll bet kevin is on pinside. just not posting.

Of course he's here. If he were busy building pinball machines, 10 or 20 would be done by now.... dont you think?

Kidding aside, I feel bad for the guy. He clearly started this with good intentions, got in WAY over his head and just didn't know how to get out.

One small lie seemed like it would keep things alive until he figured it out....then just one more small lie.... and he probably thought the end would justify the means and it wouldn't matter as long as things worked out....

Then he engages a few folks to help stall and try to buy more time.... still hoping the truth doesn't get out... if he can JUST work out those last few problems everything will be OK. Like the compulsive gambler who keeps borrowing trying to "win his way out" of debt.

So now he might be down to a few "hail mary" attempts:
Pleading/begging Fox for the rights to build the game
Trying to sell the assets to someone else who can actually build the thing

The good news, Hail Mary's sometimes work.
The bad news is, even if those things happen, he may have to answer for the lies he told to get there.

#3129 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Hanlan's razor is better than Occam's for this..

I like this razor better than BOTH of those....

#3134 4 years ago
Quoted from Jared:

Don't blame you. But you are a respected, neutral party who would relay questions and moderate responses for the owners from an unbiased and realistic point of view.

The thing is- the issues that Kevin needs to address aren't incredibly nuanced or anything! It's not like a moderator has to craft complicated questions:
1. What EXACTLY is the state TODAY of the license.
2. ARE there sufficient funds to refund the folks that have asked. If not, what CAN you do.
3. WHO is building the game and WHEN are they going to build it.

#3139 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

it is unlikely those questions will be answered in any way that makes people happy.

And thats exactly the issue!

Kevin has been avoiding answering questions that don't have happy answers, but those are EXACTLY the ones he needs to answer.... regardless of "if it makes people happy."

The truth is (hopefully) usually not as bad as the rumors have become. Now people are thinking he's a liar and a thief. It hardly seems he can do any worse by answering questions honestly.

#3142 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

assuming their are active negotiation around current license and manufacture these are things that should not (legally can't?) be talked about until they are hammered out. I would hope you can understand that.

I agree - to a degree.

However it seems he's taking the tact that since he cant answer ALL the questions, he wont answer ANY of them, or even confirm that he cant answer them.

Your list of question he can and should answer are spot on. I would guess that would bring many people in from the ledge.

But I think he has a few DAYS to get out in front of this (he's lost the faith of people to keep waiting 2 weeks).... after that, if credit card disputes start streaming in and registered letters, etc, etc it may be too late to repair the damage.

#3146 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

It's simple, Q & A or not
$4750 isn't viable, accept it
250 isn't viable at this point after all the cash burn, accept it
Get a license, price it the way it should have been initially and live with it, you have no choice
If I was advising SkitB I'd tell them to make 1000 of them if they could. LE and a pro.
Don't like it? Tough shit, that's the only way you get a pin.

Maybe that would work, but I think MANY would feel uncomfortable sending any more money to Kevin personally.

That option might work if he can setup some kind of escrow account or some other mechanism (not a special deal with pinside) that has oversight and accountability.

"Guys, we messed up. I *did* get a limited license in the beginning but it expired/was insuffient/etc. TI also tried to do this with a razor thin profit margin (out of misplaced love), but THAT has hamstrung me to be able to complete this game.

So, to get this game out, here's the options:
1. You pay an additional $1250 to cover the new license and jobbing out the manufacturing. The good news is- this will mean you get the game in a few months vs 1.5 years)
2. If you opt out, I can refund you 50% of your payment. Sorry, there was risk and that's where we are at right now. However, once we go into manufacturing and have extra games to sell, I will refund the balance 50% once sell another game (to essentially take you place in line).
3. The last caveat is that to keep this project afloat, we need to uncap the number made. You early investors will have LE models, but we will need to sell more machines to make this viable.
4. I will personally assemble the first 10 and they will ship out on or before ____.
5. It will take some time to tool up the new manufacturer, so the realistic date for #11-250 is ____

Thank you"

I hope that's the kind of message he can send (hopefully minus the $1250 bump)

#3161 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

If you have real facts then post away.

Real facts?

If that was the standard for posting in this thread we'd still be on page #1.... With room to spare.

#3229 4 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

When I had CCC at expo in the booth right next to Kevin & Predator two expos back, I heard him say "It costs me 4 grand every time I build one of these things". That's without paying someone else to build them.

Yay! Some factual info in this otherwise "sea of supposition" here on pinside!

So if the material cost is $4000 (excluding labor), what's the guesstimate on labor to assemble a pin? 16-man hour? less? more?

#3233 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Thanks EP.
4k to build. I assume at that stage it was for building a prototype and there would be some cost savings when ordering parts for 250?
If you think he is going to have to pay someone else 750 per (based on Ben's estimate), then it can still be done for 4750 or close to it.
I wuold happily pay an additional $200 if it meant a lock tight license is acquired and proof of it is provided.

But arent there some other expense line items you missed?
His time for the last 2 years?

True, he could have loaded those all into his $4K figure, but I think its just as likely some of his costs have gone UP given the delays to get this out the door.

Also, wouldn't 3% come right off the top for paypal fees?

Ah, here we go again- "winging it" with the numbers

#3234 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

16 man hours to assemble a pin? I'd think it would be much higher than that. Does that include populating the playfield?

I have no idea. I was going off the assumption that he was planning to ship a couple of these per week.

I cant use my own labor capabilities to judge... I think I spent nearly 8 hours one time just switching out all the damn light bulbs in a game, much less BUILDING one

#3250 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Can anyone chime in you has received a reply from Kevin? If he's sitting at his computer all day long replying to people, there must be lots of Pinsiders getting responses.
And if no one here has gotten a reply, then that fills in more of the picture.

So there's probably 225 people still in.... assume 1/3 asked for a refund, thats 75 emails... even at a snails pace of 5 minutes per email - the whole list is done is a few hours.

Sooooooooo, once again calling bullshit on this last message.

It's amazing how bad Kevin is at this? You'd think he'd accidentally do something right by now, but it seems every chance he's had to handle customer service - he's done it poorly.

Can anyone imagine how bad tech support would have been on this pin?

I cant think of a segue to this gif, so im not going to bother... just NEVER get sick of seeing it!

#3339 4 years ago

Guys... Ted said REALLY good news is coming soon.... Just hang tight.

#3345 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Why this type of shitstain would EVER be allowed back on Pinside is beyond me...

You talking about Kevin or DT?

#3353 4 years ago


I see stronger condemnation and name calling for the guy who called the police than for the guy whose holding all the money....


You can steal people's money but for God sakes don't be discourteous- THAT will be strongly Condemned....

#3422 4 years ago
Quoted from pmWolf:

Holy crap, people...you guys are acting like the refunds should all be issued TONIGHT.
How many people do you think have requested a refund from Kevin over the past few days? He's probably got, like, eighty billion emails.
That's not going to be immediate...and posting his personal info, stuff about his wife, where they go on vacation, what they ate last night, and then working on getting the cops to his door is NOT going to help out!
Things are in motion, and the process will not be immediate. I'm not giving any time-tables (because I'm just not that smart)...but I'd seriously appreciate it if people would take a few deep breaths and play some pinball for a bit.

Yes- what's the rush!

I mean, those people that have been asking for refunds since JANUARY certainly should just chill and take some deep breaths....

#3428 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

In the meantime, let's all take a breather. Get off this thread for a few days.
FAST Pinball

Well, at least Kevin is consistent. Again, through a conduit (first Ted, now you) he wants to push the message that folks just need to chill and "things are getting worked out" without actually having to talk with anyone he owes money to.....

I'd hope that folks "advising him" would ask him to return the emails he's been dodging for MONTH before they will pass on more of these vague messages to pinside on his behalf....

#3527 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

I JUST got finished speaking with Kevin. I asked ALL the hard questions. Here is a quick summery:
YES, he is busy.
YES, the license is fine. He is working on getting into a better situation so EVERYTHING can be shown and talked about.
YES, machines are being built as we speak.
YES, jackwads are calling FOX.
YES, there will be a MAJOR announcement within the next 2 weeks with everything you want to know.
Everything is moving forward.

Quoted from spfxted:

When everything is explained, it will be crystal clear why the lack if information and pix.

Quoted from spfxted:

...and so do I...and, YES, there are times when you can't say certain things. It will be explained soon...

Quoted from spfxted:

Let's just see how everything plays out in a couple weeks. If nothing, I'll get out a pitchfork myself!

Quoted from spfxted:

Hold on...hold on....I don't know what it is, but, big news and good news announcement is coming soon!

Quoted from spfxted:

Just soon....very soon. That to me means days...

Since he takes your calls, might be worth a follow-up call?

#3599 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I hope and wish that ANYONE that wants out is able to do so and get a full refund.
I have said many times that when i sent money last June I was prepared for any and all risk I was taking at that time. i expect very few have that same mentality and that is fine.
I WANT the game. I don't want money back.
If you want out, I hope you get your money back. Since I want the game, i hope the sentiment is returned.

Differences aside, I absolutely hope you get your game and everyone else gets a game or their money back, whichever way they are inclined.

I have little regard for SkitB as a business, but as a fellow pinhead, I hope we all agree on the former.

#3719 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Like I said, whoever brought it to Fox's attention, totally killed the chances of a refund for everyone else.

Quoted from vid1900:

Fox found out because "mr X" called their licensing department and pointed them at SkipB's website.
Prior to that, Fox said they had no idea at all about the project.

That bastard! Otherwise Kevin could have keep defrauding FOX and lying to all his suppliers and customers to this very day! Boy, that would have been sweet.

It would have been so much better if FOX found out when a dozen or so made it into the wild and they got wind of one from YouTube or a show.... Then swooped in when a bunch of suppliers had committed even more resources and had parts stacked up to the roof.

Poor Kevin, screwed over by some jerk that stopped his scam.

/backwards day

#3732 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Just remember, 2 wrongs don't make a right. .

Just to be clear, you're suggestioning the "first wrong" was Kevin illegally marketing a product without license, lying about it multiple times to customers and suppliers and refusing to refund people as promised.

The second "wrong" was the person or persons that put a stop to it?


It sounds like there's a few people that would have been fine with receiving an illegally manufactured game... You know- because it's an awesome theme.

I'd assume those folks are more likely at the front of the line since it would become increasingly likely that it could have been shutdown prior to the last person getting their game. But who cares as long as the first 10 or 20 people got theirs.

That might explain SOME people's willingness to ignore the warning signs and keep pumping the project here on pinside.....

Not very pragmatic.

#3744 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I don't think kevin ever thought he did not have the full and needed license. I don't think he ever illegally marketed anything. I firmly believe he thought he naively had everything in order. by the sounds of it any real stop to ip for renegotiations has happened in the past few weeks?

Sorry whysnow, but I think that's complete bullshit.

PERHAPS Kevin was ignorant to the lack of license WAY back in the beginning, but he CERTAINLY knew he was in the wrong when he received the C&D and then sanitized the web.

At THAT point, things weren't dire and the threat of federal suits, etc, etc weren't looming over the whole project. If he would have complied with the C&D (a year ago?) he could have very likely refunded 90% of the funds collected.

Instead, he cooked up some bullshit story about "updating the website." And commensed the lies. THATS the point (IMO) where he changed from "naive well-meaning pinhead" to crook.

This shitstorm is on HIM and no one else.

Quoted from Whysnow:

My position in the line has absolutely nothing to do with how i feel on this and frankly you are way in the wrong for making that accusation.

Sorry, but I can't for the life of me think of any other reason you would still be defending the indefensible - even now. Your track record for denying the problems in the past (apparently wrong about everything?) makes it impossible to think you're any more right about the situation today

#3806 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Nope. No excuse! If they really had information 6 months ago of genuine license issues then they could have genuinely been heroes by saying "i contacted fox at the email or phone number, they have not issued a pinball license for predator, i suggest you all get out now before fox brings lawsuit or mucks this up. ...

You're joking right?

So you just wanted someone to tell you kevin didn't have a license then you'd be onboard with it?

Gimme a break. You've been pretty clear on the subject EVERY time over the last months when the topic of even questioning SkitBs license came up.

I just don't understand what's driving your irrational position on this? You want to know the INTENT behind the whistleblowers as well? Like that makes a difference?

Dude, Kevin LIED over and over and over. he may have started out just being ignorant and incompetent, but it clearly moved to full-on lies/deception. THEN he refused to refund people as promised when they rightly tried to bail out.

Your frustration (obsession?) with Mr X should be about 1/1000th of how furious you should be with Kevin for Lying. You seem like a nice enough guy, and not a total ignoramus, but I'm sorry - you just have no credibility in the conversation anymore.

#3824 4 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

More than 2 years ago in the original thread. If all he had was a piece of paper explaining fair use policy, and never once thought it wouldn't apply to commercial purposes. Seriously?
I'm so f***in pissed right now.

That seems hard to believe.... But now.... It seems just as likely as anything else we've heard (or not heard)...

Did Kevin ever say "we have a license to make this machine" or was it all super-vague-kevin-speak like "to those asking about licensing, all I can say is you will see what you'd expect on the play field" kind of thing?

#3835 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

He was asked and he flat out said yes....so this where it was either we believe him or some anonymous dude on the internet.

Fair enough. But for those keeping score at home, I'd say "anonymous internet dude" has outpaced Kevin on truth-telling.

#3847 4 years ago
Quoted from BillySastard:

I always assumed the art was a ripoff of this DVD cover.

Lol- well the DVD certainly seems to figure prominently in the design of the pin...
he got the art from the front and the "license" from a phone number on the back!

That dvd was a good $5 investment from the bargain bin at Walmart!

#3877 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

I sure hope not, as that would be illegal without their consent.


Depends on the states.... Many are single consent...

Fox HQ *is* located in the people's repubic of California, however, which is one of the few "all party consent" states....

Though that doesn't mean that's where the attorney was located....

#3887 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

I have two words for you Anonymous gents: Gutless Cowards....man up and stop hiding in the shadows. I have better things to do so I'm ejecting myself from this topic. Good luck to the 250.

Good idea to bail- it doesn't look like the outcome supports your narrative here.... But then again, you've already said you don't care what the facts are- you already made up your mind.

Quoted from kvan99:

I chose to trust him, I corresponded with Kevin in the beginning and he never gave me the impression of flim flam man..... the truth does not matter.

#3893 4 years ago

Watched Nc State upset Villanova
UNC beat Arkansas
And now Black Sails....

Digging this Starz miniseries, though Banshee is my current favorite....

Here's a few of the women from Black Sails.... The pirate theme seems appropriate for the way this thread is going....


#3895 4 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

black sails was actually cool tonight.
lots of twists

I'm actually digging Mrs Barlow. Shes the oldest actress on the show, but she's got an awesome "Milf-thing" going.... And awesome cleavage squeezing out of most of her costumes

Just saw the end of the episode... Enjoyed all the twists but one

#3910 4 years ago

Wed/Thurs for Martin?

Haven't some of the investors waited long enough?

They should just send all the "evidence" to that podcast guy, he was more entertaining....

#3947 4 years ago

Only one thing is for sure:

This has the makings of an absolutely EPIC "Hitler Reacts" video.

#3979 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I wonder when people are going to start contacting IP owners for every other pin manufacturer. Has anyone reached out to WWE to make sure Stern has the license? game of Thrones is rumored to be next, anyone know they have the correct IP rights acquired?
Are people actively reaching out to make sure Alien is licensed.
Has Mr. x contacted the hobbit IP holders also?

Dude, you've lost it.

But I'll play along:
If JJP suddenly:
stopped communicating with buyers and
purged all reference to TH from its website, FB , Youtube, etc and
suggested they got the license "really easy from the back of a dvd case",

Then, yes, I suspect someone might LOGICALLY question the license as being intact.

When any of that happens, stop back in to discuss, until then, please review:


Ps- stop referring to SkitB as a "pin manufactuter"

#4016 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Wait a sec... Mr x was contacting IP holders well before any internet purging. they were contacting fox well before any real reason to question anything. If any of you support this then you should also support similar actions for each and every pinball maker.

#4018 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Im on vacation.

from your senses?


#4034 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I'm sure a lot of whatever is happening behind the scenes right now is to SAVE EoD. Somehow pull something off where the company can still exist and proceed with their next game, which they've apparently spent a lot of time (and money) working on.

The problem is the $$$ spent on EOD was likely siphoned off the predator pre-order account.

So if that title never sees the light of day (seems nearly IMPOSSIBLE at this point), THAT cash doesn't get recouped either and it just reduces further the funds to repay Predator folks.

I cant even imagine a scenario where they could find 249 people to join Whysnow and send them more money for another title.

#4115 4 years ago